BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - Part 22

[Tobias]

He was still a major villain though, the Joker has never been a secondary villain, Toyman is a secondary villain, he's lower tier. I think he'd be great in a Scarecrow Batman Bgeins type arc but he couldn't carry a whole film as a big villain.

Second tier villains don't become first tier until it is tried. Think Harley Quinn. Same for superheroes. Think CA and Thor.

Or Ant Man. Sorta third tier but his first film did 530 million making him second tier and getting a sequel.

It has been done, it can be done again.

Of second tier Superman villains I think Toyman has the potential to move up. Lobo too.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Well the Senate scene seems key and we have Superman in the trailers going international for sure.

Yeah, it seems like they've made considerable effort to address many of the questions posed in MoS. I forget exactly what Pa Kent said to Clark.. something along the lines of, "knowledge of your existence could change everything.. our beliefs.. our notions of right and wrong, etc." If anyone can articulate and expand upon that, it's a man with an Oscar under his belt for writing an almost universally lauded political thriller.

On a related note, I also like how the Superman comic tries to show exactly what it would take from him to prevent a catastrophic event and save everyone in the process. When you parse through it like that, people come to realize that Superman's job isn't quite as simple as many would imagine.

 

[matt47]

Yeah I love that they showed that Superman actually needs to think, it's not all muscle.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Yeah I love that they showed that Superman actually needs to think, it's not all muscle.

Right. And he also can't bend reality to his whim à la the Donner/Lester Superman.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Yeah, it seems like they've made considerable effort to address many of the questions posed in MoS. I forget exactly what Pa Kent said to Clark.. something along the lines of, "knowledge of your existence could change everything.. our beliefs.. our notions of right and wrong, etc." If anyone can articulate and expand upon that, it's a man with an Oscar under his belt for writing an almost universally lauded political thriller.

On a related note, I also like how the Superman comic tries to show exactly what it would take from him to prevent a catastrophic event and save everyone in the process. When you parse through it like that, people come to realize that Superman's job isn't quite as simple as many would imagine.

Yeah, I agree with you and Matt here. It's about presentation I think. In a toon or a comic, the thinking of certain "real world physics" traditionally gets a pass or fans and even creators have to resort to some sort of pseudo-scientific explanation. In a cartoon you can do a super strong being lifting an aircraft carrier and throw it (I remember when Black Adam did that in WORLD WAR III ) and long time readers won't bat and eye. Do that in live action though and for one, it's less dynamic, but it also isn't anywhere near how such a thing could be done even granting a character tremendous physical strength.

This sort of presentation for Supes is good, I think, because for one, it shows that for all his power he does have to struggle for the out comes he wants a lot, thus negating the criticism that his stories are lackluster because he can handle crisis after crisis so easily. And as I stated, it's just more dynamic in a cinema to way. While I dislike SR, that plane sequence s great because it showed a fairly real world approach, this carried into MOS with instances like the oil rig scene or the way he caused sonic booms as he was flying.

 

[BH/HHH]

Second tier villains don't become first tier until it is tried. Think Harley Quinn. Same for superheroes. Think CA and Thor.

Or Ant Man. Sorta third tier but his first film did 530 million making him second tier and getting a sequel.

It has been done, it can be done again.

Of second tier Superman villains I think Toyman has the potential to move up. Lobo too.

As big as Harley Quinn us his has she broken our into a main villain exactly? Even in Suicide Squad she's accompanied by the Joker plus various other villains. She isn't the main villain on her own.

Ant Man isn't a villain.

Lobo isn't really a second tier villain or a first tier in all honesty. The guys a wildcard, more an anti hero.

Toyman isn't a villain who can carry a whole movie.

 

[Bren]

I'd watch a Toyman-as-villian Superman film...... But only because I'm a massive Superman fan and will watch anything of him.

But I won't be remotely as excited as if it were a 'proper' villian.
Unless you change Toyman significantly to the point he isn't really Toyman, he's not a Superman threat. However, I could imagine he's clever enough to be a threat to humans, perhaps Superman can't find him and has to call Batdetective.

That imo could be a nice intro to a World's Finest movie. But Toyman (as he is) as a main villain would disappoint.

 

[BH/HHH]

No I don't like Superman having to go to Batman for something like that. Superman himself is a smart cookie only thing I like about him visiting Batman for help is for something that involves either CSI type work or to hand him Kryptonite.

 

[Superchan]

I agree with you guys, these tie-in comics are surprisingly insightful and the superman comic in particular is excellent; infact it's the best superman comic I've read in some time! Also the concept of superman having to struggle against physics isn't a new one, In superman returns clark struggled in stopping the falling plane because of the aerodynamically complex nuances of such a heavy object falling out of the sky. That whole scene was the only saving grace of an otherwise awful movie IMO.
Scott Snyder also went into great lengths show superman's constant struggles with seemingly mundane everyday rescues in superman unbound.

Yeah I love that they showed that Superman actually needs to think, it's not all muscle.

You know having read almost all the superman and action comics issues of the bronze/silver age I can tell you that superman used to be a thinker first and a brawler only by necessity. Even though this is the same superman that used to sneeze galaxies out of existence he was constantly challenged by foes like Brainiac, lex, metallo, parasite, Amalak etc... and most of the time he out smarted them.
John Byrne's biggest mistake was taking superman's intellect away making him a muscle bound cardboard cutup.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Someone read a different run of Byrne's cuz I remember Supes using his wits as much as anything else to solve problems all the time. And let's remember... One big problem of the Silver Age Supes was the inconsistency of powers. He had super intellect one month, then suddenly he's bamboozled by some C grade mystery or conundrum the next. Super Intellect was spotty at best. Now... Truth is with his sensory powers and probably some influence of his inherent Kryptonian genes, he probably should have a great mental capacity in the DCEU.


Also... Didn't i mention the plane rescue as a prior instance of showing the struggle with physics?

 

[elgaz]

The plane rescue in SR was great, but I still don't see it as a realistic display of Superman's struggle with physics. Sure, the wing broke off, and sure, he found it difficult to handle the mass of the plane, and it was refreshing to see that after the Donner/Lester films which didn't really consider physics much. But most of that goodwill was undone for me when he held on to the nose of the plane and gently lowered it onto the baseball pitch. The nose of an aeroplane will not support the other 350+ tons of plane by itself; the plane would have snapped in two.

Ultimately though, we're talking about a man who can fly and shoot lasers from his eyes so any kind of physics discussion is always going to be moot.

With that said - I still do prefer the films to try and at least head in the direction of realism, and at least make an attempt to show what physics Superman has to face when using his powers to save people. The prequel comic does a terrific job of that. And MOS did it pretty well too, showing how despite Kal-El being able to physically support the oil rig tower, the platform he was standing on couldn't - and the tower couldn't support it's own structure once it began to fall.

 

[BH/HHH]

The Fleischer toons dealt with physics on occasion as well, infant they did the while train thing on an episode.

 

[AnneFan]

^ Very good post elgaz.

 

[BH/HHH]

John Byrne's biggest mistake was taking superman's intellect away making him a muscle bound cardboard cutup.

This isnt the first time you've said something perplexing and inaccurate on here. I'm wondering if you have ever even read the Byrne run.

 

[Young Superman]

Cav-El DCAU style.
http://alexbadass.deviantart.com/art/Updated-Dawn-of-Justice-Superman-JLU-Style-560793558

 

[BH/HHH]

Awesome

 

[souperman]

The plane rescue in SR was great, but I still don't see it as a realistic display of Superman's struggle with physics. Sure, the wing broke off, and sure, he found it difficult to handle the mass of the plane, and it was refreshing to see that after the Donner/Lester films which didn't really consider physics much. But most of that goodwill was undone for me when he held on to the nose of the plane and gently lowered it onto the baseball pitch. The nose of an aeroplane will not support the other 350+ tons of plane by itself; the plane would have snapped in two.

Ultimately though, we're talking about a man who can fly and shoot lasers from his eyes so any kind of physics discussion is always going to be moot.

With that said - I still do prefer the films to try and at least head in the direction of realism, and at least make an attempt to show what physics Superman has to face when using his powers to save people. The prequel comic does a terrific job of that. And MOS did it pretty well too, showing how despite Kal-El being able to physically support the oil rig tower, the platform he was standing on couldn't - and the tower couldn't support it's own structure once it began to fall.

That scene was good. I felt/read Superman's issue was to stop the plane without killing everyone on board with inertia...hence trying to slow it down and stop the rotation...slowly, rather than it being difficult.

For the time, the scene was great. I agree the nose tip was not as believable and thought they should have copied the Fleischer cartoon more closely as below...but he did kinda drop it hard !

Fleischer was done very well and believable for the time!

I think there was another version of the airplane rescue as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8eqZEHvWa0

8 min mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HopZ5V5-k6g

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

John Byrne's biggest mistake was taking superman's intellect away making him a muscle bound cardboard cutup.

I remember once reading someone say that Superman in JL and JLU was dumbed down to build Batman up, is Byrne who did Justice League? It was the same Superman from TAS but he was quite intelligent in that one.
As for physics, I don't understand it much but I believe the Helicopter scene in Superman wouldn't be possible. But I think I recall someone saying that the way he caught Lois is possible because she was going down and he was flying up at the same speed.

 

[ernesth100]

So, I heard there was a kryptonian message on Supes suit. Anyone know what it is?

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

The Fleischer toons dealt with physics on occasion as well

You mean like in the first episode when Superman physically punched a laser beam into submission?

 

[Angel0fDeath]

So, I heard there was a kryptonian message on Supes suit. Anyone know what it is?

“Where we had thought to stand alone, we will be with all the world”

 

[elgaz]

I remember once reading someone say that Superman in JL and JLU was dumbed down to build Batman up, is Byrne who did Justice League? It was the same Superman from TAS but he was quite intelligent in that one.

I'd find that easy to believe. Batman has oft been touted as a genius and the number one strategist within the DC universe. In reality, Superman's intelligence should mean that he can outsmart him at every corner, unless the writers dumb him down a little.

Ultimately, he's a man who can move at near the speed of light so his brain has to operate fast enough to react. By that reasoning, he can probably go through a million scenarios, calculations, strategies and thought processes before the average human can go through one.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Cav-El DCAU style.
http://alexbadass.deviantart.com/art/Updated-Dawn-of-Justice-Superman-JLU-Style-560793558

The DCF and DCAU styles go together well. Wish they did something like this instead of JLAction.

 

[souperman]

You mean like in the first episode when Superman physically punched a laser beam into submission?

sometimes a laser needs a good punch...t:

 

[BlueLanternKal]

You mean like in the first episode when Superman physically punched a laser beam into submission?

No lie, when I first saw Supes blow up the World Engine in theaters I flashed back to that Fleischer cartoon.