BvS Henry Cavill IS Superman - - - - - - - - - - Part 24

[BH/HHH]

I just watched the video, and Snyder's focus on the question seems to be around Batman assembling the league, not necessarily who's leading it. His logic is sound considering his point of departure is "If Superman is around the league forms itself" essentially, so he wants Batman to do it because it'll offer more rich storytelling opportunities probably rather than everyone easily and quickly rallying around the messiah which seems to be what he's inferring.

Honestly a lot of Superman fans are reading as much into this as possible, I'm not saying Snyder won't do something drastic with the character, but a lot of people are jumping the gun and arguing as though they've got evidence that establishes it as absolute fact. We can argue semantics, Snyder's facial expressions and body language until the cows come home.

People also seem to be forgetting that if Darkseid shows up, the only way the JL wins is by having Superman on their side. He's consistently the JL member that is the highest priority when Darksied comes, and is usually the one to deal the lethal/defeating blow.

Spoiler

Certainly if Snyder hated Superman as much as some people claim he would've had Doomsday impale him, and then WW finds the spear and destroys Doomsday leaving Supes dead and without the credit of actually having saved the planet. Again.

While Superman may have been too much a subject of BvS rather than an agent in the narrative, it's undeniable that this story is focused completely on him. Snyder might not be taking a route a lot of fans like, but the talk of him trying to perpetually sideline Superman is a little alarmist IMO.

Great post sir, spot on

 

[DeadPresident]

I think Superman himself says it best.

"Superman? You'll never be Superman. Because you have no idea what it means to be Superman. It's not about where you were born. Or what powers you have. Or what you wear on your chest. It's about what you do... it's about action."

Kind of sums up how I feel about Snyder's version of the character.

But that's fine. He's not Superman in the traditional sense. It's an elseworlds Superman, and he at least has good intentions. The real Superman would give him a serious talking to though

I find this angle a little confusing, and it seems to be rather prevalent around here. I'm starting to wonder if a number of the self-proclaimed Superman fans are the ones that don't actually understand the character.

When you say "traditional" all you're referring to is past iterations. Everything new goes against tradition unless it reproduces a past rendition slavishly, and even then it doesn't necessarily work. I'm going to have to hear a very well articulated and evidenced argument for why this Superman isn't somewhat quintessentially in the spirit of the character.

Great post sir, spot on

Gracias Trying to spread reason to this board one post at a time

 

[Cats]

Sadly, all that seems to be spreading around is how awesome batman is for kicking supes ass

There will always be people cheering on both sides of the fence. I'm personally a long time Bat-fan (have always found Superman boring) who's really grown to love and sympathize with Henry Cavill's Superman. Before getting into the theatre, I was all ready to cheer for Batman during that big fight, but instead I found myself wincing with Superman each time he got [BLACKOUT]doused with the gas[/BLACKOUT], and hoping Batman would come to see reason soon.

 

[Cats]

The only way to get to what you're saying is with a leap of faith. He explicitly stated, he wanted Batman to rally the troops and if Superman where around he'd be the leader.

Not because Snyder only wants Batman to be leader, but it would take a lot more out of Batman to have to do this job rather than Superman (who could probably zip around the world in minutes and still be home for tea). Batman is not naturally a social or a trusting person, it would be interesting for him to try to overcome his inner demons for the greater good. It would also be a true progression of the character from BvS, having now learnt to put aside his paranoia to trust Superman, to in turn trust the others. Superman would have a much less self conflicted time doing this, and wouldn't make for the ideal storytelling. I have no doubt though, that when Superman [BLACKOUT]comes back from death[/BLACKOUT], he will emerge as leader and Batman will take a backseat.

 

[HELLilac]

Honestly a lot of Superman fans are reading as much into this as possible, I'm not saying Snyder won't do something drastic with the character, but a lot of people are jumping the gun and arguing as though they've got evidence that establishes it as absolute fact. We can argue semantics, Snyder's facial expressions and body language until the cows come home.

People also seem to be forgetting that if Darkseid shows up, the only way the JL wins is by having Superman on their side. He's consistently the JL member that is the highest priority when Darksied comes, and is usually the one to deal the lethal/defeating blow.

Spoiler

Certainly if Snyder hated Superman as much as some people claim he would've had Doomsday impale him, and then WW finds the spear and destroys Doomsday leaving Supes dead and without the credit of actually having saved the planet. Again.

While Superman may have been too much a subject of BvS rather than an agent in the narrative, it's undeniable that this story is focused completely on him. Snyder might not be taking a route a lot of fans like, but the talk of him trying to perpetually sideline Superman is a little alarmist IMO.

They're not going to fight Darksied in JL1. I have no doubt that Supes is going to join the league and played the crucial part EVENTUALLY but my concern is we might not see much of him before that. I don't want him to be just the Hulk in TA1 or the Vision in AOU.

Spoiler

Snyder let him had the last glory being the one who killed Doomsday because he knew he's already done enough damages. He let Batman won the fight, made WW looked more badass fighting Doomsday than Supes himself.

And I wasn't the only one who got the same impression from his interview. I know a few non-Superman fans who read into it the same way as well but they just didn't get bothered by it.

 

[HELLilac]

You're both obviously ignoring the distinction between GATHERING the league and being in CHARGE of the league, come on guys, use a little bit of logic instead of latching onto herolee's brand of paranoia.

Because I can't see how the guy who's putting the league together isn't going to be in charge of the league?

 

[DeadPresident]

They're not going to fight Darksied in JL1. I have no doubt that Supes is going to join the league and played the crucial part EVENTUALLY but my concern is we might not see much of him before that. I don't want him to be just the Hulk in TA1 or the Vision in AOU.

Spoiler

Snyder let him had the last glory being the one who killed Doomsday because he knew he's already done enough damages. He let Batman won the fight, made WW looked more badass fighting Doomsday than Supes himself.

And I wasn't the only one who got the same impression from his interview. I know a few non-Superman fans who read into it the same way as well but they just didn't get bothered by it.

Again, people are interpreting everything about this film according to their deeply held beliefs and biases, and making little room for other possibilities.

Because I can't see how the guy who's putting the league together isn't going to be in charge of the league?

Uh...yes? Why would those two things be mutually inclusive?

Bruce will most likely be the temporary custodian of the position. Batman isn't the leader in source material, he doesn't even like interacting with all the league members that often. Superman is always the logical option.

I'm not sure why "gathering" =/= "leading" is even a conversation at this point.

We'll see I guess, I'll leave everyone on the Superman doom train as they were, people aren't going to change their minds about this.

 

[BH/HHH]

Gracias Trying to spread reason to this board one post at a time

Someone has to, I'd try but I tend to ramble haha

There will always be people cheering on both sides of the fence. I'm personally a long time Bat-fan (have always found Superman boring) who's really grown to love and sympathize with Henry Cavill's Superman. Before getting into the theatre, I was all ready to cheer for Batman during that big fight, but instead I found myself wincing with Superman each time he got [BLACKOUT]doused with the gas[/BLACKOUT], and hoping Batman would come to see reason soon.

My mate was the same, he couldn't wait for Batman to kick Supes butt but then when he watched the film he sympathised with Supes. I think Snyder did a terrific job here with the fight. Much better than Frank Miller did.

Not because Snyder only wants Batman to be leader, but it would take a lot more out of Batman to have to do this job rather than Superman (who could probably zip around the world in minutes and still be home for tea). Batman is not naturally a social or a trusting person, it would be interesting for him to try to overcome his inner demons for the greater good. It would also be a true progression of the character from BvS, having now learnt to put aside his paranoia to trust Superman, to in turn trust the others. Superman would have a much less self conflicted time doing this, and wouldn't make for the ideal storytelling. I have no doubt though, that when Superman [BLACKOUT]comes back from death[/BLACKOUT], he will emerge as leader and Batman will take a backseat.

Yup

They're not going to fight Darksied in JL1. I have no doubt that Supes is going to join the league and played the crucial part EVENTUALLY but my concern is we might not see much of him before that. I don't want him to be just the Hulk in TA1 or the Vision in AOU.

How can you think you know this? Nobody knows who the JL villain is.

Because I can't see how the guy who's putting the league together isn't going to be in charge of the league?

The Avengers were formed by Iron Man, Ant Man, the Wasp and Thor. In issue #4 they found Captain America in the ice who then became the leader of the Avengers.

Just because you form a group doesn't mean you automatically have a leader. Sometimes that's the missing ingredient that has to be found later.

Again, people are interpreting everything about this film according to their deeply held beliefs and biases, and making little room for other possibilities.

This is the problem, maybe it's because these guys are icons. People have set ideas of who they want them to be and what storylines they want that they get annoyed when it's not that way.

 

[Cats]

I think Snyder did a terrific job here with the fight. Much better than Frank Miller did.

I agree! No matter how many people praise the Dark Knight Returns, I just hated the ending to that fight. I struggled so hard to love it, reading all kinds of commentaries about it, but it still fell flat for me. It really made me hate Superman in that story as a government butt-kisser (looks like Iron Man's going to fall into that role in Civil War, I already really dislike him now). I'm so glad Snyder didn't get the government involved in their fight, and that Superman was at least attempting to [BLACKOUT]talk it out[/BLACKOUT]. And the ending... it was just beautiful. Can't wait to watch this film again just to savor that moment one more time.

 

[Herolee10]

Again, people are interpreting everything about this film according to their deeply held beliefs and biases, and making little room for other possibilities.



Uh...yes? Why would those two things be mutually inclusive?

Bruce will most likely be the temporary custodian of the position. Batman isn't the leader in source material, he doesn't even like interacting with all the league members that often. Superman is always the logical option.

I'm not sure why "gathering" =/= "leading" is even a conversation at this point.

We'll see I guess, I'll leave everyone on the Superman doom train as they were, people aren't going to change their minds about this.

The problem is though that there was no hints or indication that Superman, as shown in BvS, would be capable of leading a group of superheroes.

BvS completely sets up the notion that Batman is being the one prepped to lead this group, especially when you consider Flash's message to him.

Plus, another strong indication should be on how it's only Bruce that has any real significant scenes with the next top JL member, Wonder Woman, and how it's only whose two that were able to watch that video containing all of the future league members.

 

[Verick808]

The problem is though that there was no hints or indication that Superman, as shown in BvS, would be capable of leading a group of superheroes.

BvS completely sets up the notion that Batman is being the one prepped to lead this group, especially when you consider Flash's message to him.

Plus, another strong indication should be on how it's only Bruce that has any real significant scenes with the next top JL member, Wonder Woman, and how it's only whose two that were able to watch that video containing all of the future league members.

And Batmans shown leadership skills? Besides Superman leads the group by holding it up and together. Not by giving orders. Don't forget Superman is a far more inspiring character than Batman. Even in this. Batman is a local urban legend. Superman saved the world...twice.

 

[Herolee10]

And Batmans shown leadership skills? Besides Superman leads the group by holding it up and together. Not by giving orders. Don't forget Superman is a far more inspiring character than Batman. Even in this. Batman is a local urban legend. Superman saved the world...twice.

Well you had Barry begging Bruce to find them, along with how Bruce has had 2 decades worth of experience being a costumed hero. I'm assuming that Bruce was the leader of the group in the timeline that Flash came from.

 

[HELLilac]

How can you think you know this? Nobody knows who the JL villain is.

Darksied is too big. He might be behind everything but it doesn't make sense for the league to have him as their first villain. That'd be like having Thanos as the first villain for the Avengers.

The Avengers were formed by Iron Man, Ant Man, the Wasp and Thor. In issue #4 they found Captain America in the ice who then became the leader of the Avengers.

Just because you form a group doesn't mean you automatically have a leader. Sometimes that's the missing ingredient that has to be found later.

My point is I don't know if WB would want to do what they should do. Batman is their most popular character. He's like the more popular, more iconic version of FOX's Wolverine. FOX made Wolverine the leader of the X-MEN even though he'd NEVER led the team once prior to the movie. BvS got panned by a lot of people but 2 things that left the movie unscratched were Batfleck and WW. What if WB decide to make JL 'Batman and friends' just like how FOX did with the Wolverine? You see where I'm coming from? I admit it's all pessimistic talking but that kind of director/studio bias isn't unprecedented.

If this is MCU I wouldn't be worried. They know how important it is to please the fan base of their major characters.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Well you had Barry begging Bruce to find them, along with how Bruce has had 2 decades worth of experience being a costumed hero. I'm assuming that Bruce was the leader of the group in the timeline that Flash came from.

I would assume that there is NO team in the timeline Flash came from.

 

[BH/HHH]

I agree! No matter how many people praise the Dark Knight Returns, I just hated the ending to that fight. I struggled so hard to love it, reading all kinds of commentaries about it, but it still fell flat for me. It really made me hate Superman in that story as a government butt-kisser (looks like Iron Man's going to fall into that role in Civil War, I already really dislike him now). I'm so glad Snyder didn't get the government involved in their fight, and that Superman was at least attempting to [BLACKOUT]talk it out[/BLACKOUT]. And the ending... it was just beautiful. Can't wait to watch this film again just to savor that moment one more time.

Even discounting the end of that fight (which I despise for many reasons). The fight itself in the book just isn't very good. They massively improved on it in the animated film aswell. What's always bugged me about the book (which is an excellent book don't get me wrong) is that the legacy it left for Superman. People take it as that's the character when in actuality it's an elseworlds tale in the same way Red Son, Gotham by Gaslight, etc are.

Darksied is too big. He might be behind everything but it doesn't make sense for the league to have him as their first villain. That'd be like having Thanos as the first villain for the Avengers.

But that's just you making an educated guess. Personally I think the whole waiting on Thanos thing has held some of the Marvel films back especially AOU. DC have been know with the Dark Kniht Trilogy, MOS and now BvS to go all out in your movie. Make the best film you can now. I think JL will be no different.

The fact that Terrio is calling MOS, BvS and JLP1 a saga of films I imagine Darkseid will be the villain as they will want to wrap up the threads left behind.

 

[DeadPresident]

The problem is though that there was no hints or indication that Superman, as shown in BvS, would be capable of leading a group of superheroes.

BvS completely sets up the notion that Batman is being the one prepped to lead this group, especially when you consider Flash's message to him.

Plus, another strong indication should be on how it's only Bruce that has any real significant scenes with the next top JL member, Wonder Woman, and how it's only whose two that were able to watch that video containing all of the future league members.

Verick already said it, why does that make Batman the default leader? If anything out of the established members Wonder Woman is more likely to be the leader than Batman is. Snyder said Batman finds them, he didn't say anything about who the spiritual leader of the league is.

In almost all source material Batman is somewhat of an outsider, and Superman is the only one of the league that has an actual friendship with him for the most part. The rest of the league members aren't exactly going to warm to him. You've got a newly crowned Atlantean king, a young Speedster and Cyborg who may or may not have much affinity for humanity at all. It's going to be a challenge for Bruce, a non-superpowered being, to convince these people to join together. On the other hand, you've got the strongest superhero who has publicly saved the world twice, and once given his life to achieve it.

Who are the other league members likely to see as the more "qualified" leader?

 

[BH/HHH]

What is this obsession with whose the leader anyway

The Justice League have always been a team, they make decisions together and they all take lead when required. Which is how it should be.

 

[DeadPresident]

Darksied is too big. He might be behind everything but it doesn't make sense for the league to have him as their first villain. That'd be like having Thanos as the first villain for the Avengers.


My point is I don't know if WB would want to do what they should do. Batman is their most popular character. He's like the more popular, more iconic version of FOX's Wolverine. FOX made Wolverine the leader of the X-MEN even though he'd NEVER led the team once prior to the movie. BvS got panned by a lot of people but 2 things that left the movie unscratched were Batfleck and WW. What if WB decide to make JL 'Batman and friends' just like how FOX did with the Wolverine? You see where I'm coming from? I admit it's all pessimistic talking but that kind of director/studio bias isn't unprecedented.

If this is MCU I wouldn't be worried. They know how important it is to please the fan base of their major characters.

You mean the same leader of the Avengers, who up until RDJ took up the role was pretty much the fourth or fifth most relevant character in Marvel's stable? The same character that was behind Spider-Man, the Hulk, Captain America and the Fantastic Four in terms of general audience awareness? The Hulk has been all but sidelined as a plot device, despite the fact that historically he's been in the GA's eye faaaaaaar more than Iron Man has.

Could Batman be the leader? Maybe. But I don't see why they would launch their universe with Superman if he was going to be usurped. If the studio and Snyder were so hellbent on having Batman be the centerpiece surely they would've rebooted him ASAP and MoS would've been the first Batman standalone, right?

 

[sportjames23]

What is this obsession with whose the leader anyway

The Justice League have always been a team, they make decisions together and they all take lead when required. Which is how it should be.

Exactly.

 

[BH/HHH]

Exactly.

 

[HELLilac]

You mean the same leader of the Avengers, who up until RDJ took up the role was pretty much the fourth or fifth most relevant character in Marvel's stable? The same character that was behind Spider-Man, the Hulk, Captain America and the Fantastic Four in terms of general audience awareness? The Hulk has been all but sidelined as a plot device, despite the fact that historically he's been in the GA's eye faaaaaaar more than Iron Man has.

Could Batman be the leader? Maybe. But I don't see why they would launch their universe with Superman if he was going to be usurped. If the studio and Snyder were so hellbent on having Batman be the centerpiece surely they would've rebooted him ASAP and MoS would've been the first Batman standalone, right?

I don't know what you're talking about. I thought TA is going to be Iron Man and friends considering his movies made twice the number of the other members solo movies. It didn't happen. He saved the day but BW played as much role in the climax as he did. Cap, the boring Cap, had the most screen time and the rightful field leader. Thor was the brother of the main villain and got the most badass actions. Hulk got to be the show stealer.

As for the bold part. That was their plan originally but thing have changed once they add Batman into Superman sequel.

And it isn't about Superman being the leader. It's more to do with him being robbed of his role that was promised in MOS. Do they still going to join him in the sun or was it just his dead dad wishful thinking?

And again. I hope I was wrong and that I lost my **** for nothing.

 

[Tobias]

I think the CW promo stuff was part of the plan to keep people away from figuring out the DOS elements of the final film. If some want to characterize that a "lie" or "misleading" in a negative or nefarious way... I can't help ya'll.

I think you are right. The promo stuff was part of an effort to keep the Death of Superman ending of BvS a secret. Its a head fake but not a lie in a nefarious way. To me anyway.

They did a great job of keeping the ending secret. Only leak was the funeral procession photos from June 2014 that got out and an extra saying Cavill was not part of the shoo or on set that day.

How they do that as they film JL will be interesting. Will Cavill's filming be done in secret? Will they do their best to keep the public away. Keep the mystery going.

 

[titansupes]

I think the CW promo stuff was part of the plan to keep people away from figuring out the DOS elements of the final film. If some want to characterize that a "lie" or "misleading" in a negative or nefarious way... I can't help ya'll.

They did a pretty bad job of that when they put Doomsday in the trailer then...

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I find this angle a little confusing, and it seems to be rather prevalent around here. I'm starting to wonder if a number of the self-proclaimed Superman fans are the ones that don't actually understand the character.

When you say "traditional" all you're referring to is past iterations. Everything new goes against tradition unless it reproduces a past rendition slavishly, and even then it doesn't necessarily work. I'm going to have to hear a very well articulated and evidenced argument for why this Superman isn't somewhat quintessentially in the spirit of the character.

Elseworlds stories are often still 'in the spirit' of the character... otherwise it wouldn't be an elseworlds... it's just be a story about some other character

This version of the character is very different from the majority of other interpretations, largely due to huge changes to his backstory that have affected his 'success' at being a Superhero.

Elseworlds stories take a well know character and ask 'What would he be like if this happened? What would happen to him if the world was like this?'

That's exactly what this story from MOS to BvS has been doing.

What would Superman be like if his Dad voluntarily died to protect his secret, right in front of his eyes? What would Superman be like if he was FORCED into becoming Superman by a situation, or by wanting to make his father proud, rather than choosing it himself? What would Superman be like if he killed the very first villain he fought, violently and in front of children? What would the world think of him if people died and lost loved ones in a super powered battle he was partly responsible for?

I could go on, but do you get what I mean?

Uh...yes? Why would those two things be mutually inclusive?

Bruce will most likely be the temporary custodian of the position. Batman isn't the leader in source material, he doesn't even like interacting with all the league members that often. Superman is always the logical option.

I'm not sure why "gathering" =/= "leading" is even a conversation at this point.

We'll see I guess, I'll leave everyone on the Superman doom train as they were, people aren't going to change their minds about this.

Is Agent Coulson the leader of the Avengers?

No.

But he recruits them.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Sexy time.

Spoiler

Wow! that's a big one.

Spoiler