The Dark Knight Rises Ideas For Incorporating Characters Into the Nolanverse

[Melkay]

ha ha looks like you went on a bit of a rant last night child, hacking into people like a lecturer on the subject of creativity or something. Sorry but I've yet to see anything worthwhile come from yourself and you seem to have missed the entire point of a few peoples posts as well. You're also using subjective logic. For instance you use capitals on me to point out your view that Joker should not be recast, which is trivial, because I was offering a view on how the Joker IN ARKHAM should be used if the location is gonna be used at all, hypothetically. So the subject is Arkham, not the Joker, so critique that. "What is up with us people" is we're simply of a different idea than you, probably because we're more intelligent and less arrogant than you.

Hahaha, are you kidding me? Are you telling me that you were talking about how to handle the Joker in Arkham, but you weren't bringin on the table the recasting topic??
Oh, sorry, I must have clicked unintentionally in the "Ideas For Villains To Be Done By Nolan In A 3rd Movie That Will Be Made In A Completely Hypothetical Parallel World Where Heath Ledger Didn't Die"....

I KNOW you have a different idea from me, that's why I'm asking... what's up with you? Please, tell me what's gotten into you to make you even "suggest" to recast the character. What is it? It's not a rethorical question, I really want to know, I presented you my arguments and I REALLY REALLY want to hear yours.

Because, at the end of the day, fascism, cannibalism and sectist cults are people "who think different from me", but I'm yet to hear good arguments for those things.

Arguments is an easy thing to come up with. Especially when you are more intelligent than me (and that should be enough ).

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i think he means that no actor in the history of acting is bigger than the joker. yea heath done a great job and R.I.P to him, but that doesn't mean the joker should be just brushed under the carpet.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

i think he means that no actor in the history of acting is bigger than the joker. yea heath done a great job and R.I.P to him, but that doesn't mean the joker should be just brushed under the carpet.

I agree to this. If there isn't at least a couple minutes of dialog devoted to explaining what happened to The Joker in the post Dark Knight world, it will be like refusing to discuss the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

lol that is funny.

 

[Melkay]

Lets keep this civil. Its very doubtful any of our ideas will actually make it into a movie and most of the things people write in here I think are more along the lines of brainstorming then anything they are adamant about. Pointing out major holes in someone's thoughts in a respectful way is fine but this is still really nothing more then just throwing out some possibilities for fun. I mean to be honest this isn't much more then a little game we are playing....

Oh, I didn't know that, then I back off everything I said earlier.
But I do believe criticism is fun. I hope everybody would point out why some ideas are a better reading material that others. If people get offended by that... well, then I back off of the whole thing. Anyway, the charm about the boards is that you can argue and challenge people's ideas.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea thats what i thought the boards was here for? for everyone to discuss their opinions, i think we all know what we say isn't going to be put in the movie. buts its just fun to talk about our ideas.

 

[Melkay]

i think he means that no actor in the history of acting is bigger than the joker. yea heath done a great job and R.I.P to him, but that doesn't mean the joker should be just brushed under the carpet.

No, but no actor out there can be a better HEATH's JOKER than Heath Lledger himslef (the first actor in history who made a comic book character performance actually have a chance at an oscar nod).

So, if you can't have a GREAT ACTOR who can also BRING CONTINUITY to the SAME CHARACTER with the SAME INTERPRETATION... why do you want to recast it? Because if you see Joker again, it will make you feel good?

Yes, that's how irrationality works.

I know Heath's death was a tragedy and gave a great character and we want more of him, but that's how things are. I'm shocked so many people are willing to ruin the Joker a little bit just to see him once again. Not to talk about how other villains should get their chance under Nolan.
There are things that can't be fixed.

You want to recast the joker? Fin. Just file that under the "ways of making the sequel a little bit worse" category.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

theres no guarentees it'll make it worse and theres no guarentees it'll make it better. and i'm not saying other villains shouldn't get a crack in Nolans universe, i'm just saying a character like the joker, batmans only TRUE nemesis should not just dissapear off the radar.

 

[Nepenthes]

Oh, I didn't know that, then I back off everything I said earlier.
But I do believe criticism is fun. I hope everybody would point out why some ideas are a better reading material that others. If people get offended by that... well, then I back off of the whole thing. Anyway, the charm about the boards is that you can argue and challenge people's ideas.

you're not doing that though

I comment that asking advice from the Joker makes makes no sense because he's dangerous and a liar. I then offer a context which might help it make sense. You come and tell me LEDGER WAS THE JOKER, ask what's wrong with me, and then tell me to stop living in the past. I find that moronic. Then you prove you cannot grasp the difference between commenting on recasting a character; and commenting on what may happen IF that decision was already made. I find you moronic, sorry

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i reckon he was someone who was banned who then opened up a new account!!

 

[Melkay]

theres no guarentees it'll make it worse and theres no guarentees it'll make it better.

I'm saying there are all the guarantees in the world that it won't be AS GOOD. Not As Good = Worse.

i'm just saying a character like the joker, batmans only TRUE nemesis should not just dissapear off the radar.

He can be mentioned, yes, but him showing up? Uh, no, that's ruining him. Are you willing to ruin the last Nolan take on the character just because he cannot dissapear off the radar?
Please, don't.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea but who are you to say it will ruin it? look its as simple as this me and a lot of people wanna see the joker again in some way, and then you and some other people dont wanna see him. we have no say on the matter so you shouldn't be making statements like "well it will ruin him" because it is absolutly impossible to say. to be honest your not coming up with any legitimate arguements to suggest that he shouln't be included.

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

The only reason I am against it is continuity's sake, which I think was already moderately compromised with a recast of Rachel. If the plot really called for a new Joker, I would have no problem with a recast.

 

[Melkay]

yea but who are you to say it will ruin it? look its as simple as this me and a lot of people wanna see the joker again in some way, and then you and some other people dont wanna see him. we have no say on the matter so you shouldn't be making statements like "well it will ruin him" because it is absolutly impossible to say. to be honest your not coming up with any legitimate arguements to suggest that he shouln't be included.

No legitimate arguments? Are you reading what I'm writing?

"you can't have a GREAT ACTOR who can also BRING CONTINUITY to the SAME CHARACTER with the SAME INTERPRETATION... "

You can't have all that. You just can't. It is virtually impossible. There is no actor out there who can do Heath Joker and look like him it exactly like Heath. There is not. You can't do it and make him justice at the same time.
So, if you can't do it as good (keep in mind it has to be the SAME interpretation, for the sake of continuity) and you are just going to bring it down... why do you want to do it? Are you willing to bring back a character that you loved, even acknowledging that it wouldn't be the same, just to feel good about yourself?

I want the character to leave with a high note, being the great interpretation that it was... I don't want it to bring it a few notches down. I you can't see the argument there, then it is not my problem.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea but the joker doesn't have to be exactly the same does he? maybe his stay in arkham could slightly change his characteristics? being someone who is obviously hyper and doesn't stop thinking like the joker imagen what it would be like to be locked up in a padded cell for 24/7. i reckon that could make him even more angry with the "establishment" and even more fixated on his "play-mate" batman. who knows his personality could completely change, maybe he wouldn't care about proving points about societies morals and just want to kill everyone?

 

[I7eIVIoNBoY]

^^ well i reckon we just found our Killer Croc

 

[Ace of Knaves]

red x man.

 

[Melkay]

you're not doing that though

I comment that asking advice from the Joker makes makes no sense because he's dangerous and a liar. I then offer a context which might help it make sense. You come and tell me LEDGER WAS THE JOKER, ask what's wrong with me, and then tell me to stop living in the past. I find that moronic. Then you prove you cannot grasp the difference between commenting on recasting a character; and commenting on what may happen IF that decision was already made. I find you moronic, sorry

haha, you find me moronic? nice to see you resorting to personal attacks, that a signal of a lack of reasoning.

I wasn't challenging what I found wrong about your opinion. No, what I didn't know was that I needed to explain simple things to you. Okay, once more, from the top...

NOBODY...
can do HEATH'S Joker,
better than HEATH Ledger.
You can find someone who can IMPERSONATE HIM,
but it won't be AS GOOD...
... so, it WILL be worse.
But, then again,
Heath's Joker was the joker of THESE MOVIES...
so you can't CHANGE his interpretations,
for CONTINUITY's sake,
withouth making it WORSE,
not to mention that you are taking film time away from OTHER VILLAINS,
and you're ASSUMING that the next movie won't be AS GOOD without SOME KIND OF JOKER IN IT,
because, y'know, "joker is batman's true nemesis".

There, here you are... My Arguments, once again. It's not an opinion, it's common sense. Deny it, and I'll understand we're not dealing with common sense here. Just to clear that out.

i reckon he was someone who was banned who then opened up a new account!!

Not true. Long time reader, never a poster, until recently. Don't be bitter.

 

[Gianakin_]

you're ASSUMING that the next movie won't be AS GOOD without SOME KIND OF JOKER IN IT,
because, y'know, "joker is batman's true nemesis".

Actually, he's never claimed (to my knowledge) that BB3 won't be as good without any kind of Joker. And the true nemesis thing is a very very valid argument.

It's not an opinion, it's common sense. Deny it, and I'll understand we're not dealing with common sense here. Just to clear that out.

Oh, but it is an opinion. It's an opinion if I ever saw one. You're just glorifying it by calling it "common sense".

 

[Nepenthes]

I'm down to repeating myself on a forum where words are already frozen....

you're not doing that though

I comment that asking advice from the Joker makes makes no sense because he's dangerous and a liar. I then offer a context which might help it make sense. You come and tell me LEDGER WAS THE JOKER, ask what's wrong with me, and then tell me to stop living in the past. I find that moronic. Then you prove you cannot grasp the difference between commenting on recasting a character; and commenting on what may happen IF that decision was already made. I find you moronic, sorry

really, CAN you do that Melkay? ^ do you understand that sentence?

 

[ThePoisonPuppet]

haha, you find me moronic? nice to see you resorting to personal attacks, that a signal of a lack of reasoning.

I wasn't challenging what I found wrong about your opinion. No, what I didn't know was that I needed to explain simple things to you. Okay, once more, from the top...

NOBODY...
can do HEATH'S Joker,
better than HEATH Ledger.
You can find someone who can IMPERSONATE HIM,
but it won't be AS GOOD...
... so, it WILL be worse.
But, then again,
Heath's Joker was the joker of THESE MOVIES...
so you can't CHANGE his interpretations,
for CONTINUITY's sake,
withouth making it WORSE,
not to mention that you are taking film time away from OTHER VILLAINS,
and you're ASSUMING that the next movie won't be AS GOOD without SOME KIND OF JOKER IN IT,
because, y'know, "joker is batman's true nemesis".

Melkay, you need to go back to where this argument has its roots and read Nepenthes's post. They simply stated what would/could be done if a recast was going to be made. Their opinion on whether or not to do a recast was irrelevant.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

haha is this argument still going on!!???

 

[WGoble]

The only way they will be successful with another Joker is if they have unused footage (which I doubt) or cast someone who can fill his (clown)shoes in a way that feels like a tribute. Like Depp or someone who can immerse themselves in a role.

Now, for the third movie... they will NEVER top the joker, in any way, with another villain. They have to use another tactic. Take TLH's idea and expand on it, and twist it. You have a killer who is murdering people, leaving clues on important days, at important events, hidden in plain view. The killer becomes known as "The Riddler" killer. After he reaches a a certain level, he starts leaving notes signing "-Edward... Now You Go Mad Again" Edward N.Y.G.M.A.

It's a reinvention of the Riddler, so if that pisses off the aficionado's, I'm sorry. Now, it would be excellent to keep the Joker and keep Two-Face, both in Arkham, but no one knows Harvey is alive but Bruce, Gordon, and Alfred. With Harvey being 'dead', Batman is now the villain, Bruce can step up publicly start pursuing Batman and the Mob. (This gives Alfred endless possible puns and quips about Bruce spending millions on chasing himself and never catching him) Bruce and Gordon would basically be tricking the entire city into standing up for themselves and taking Harvey Dent's efforts upon themselves, rather than let it die. Now, the murders will have to cause turmoil within this well-oiled machine. Everyone will suspect everyone(just like TLH). As all of this is happening, Alberto Falcone comes home and wants to take control of the family from Maroni.

Scarecrow should also return once again by getting in with Alberto Falcone, who (falsely) promises him money/power for helping him gain control and getting his father out of Arkham. This also makes the secret about Harvey's being alive and transformation in danger. Two-Face could also play the role that Calendar Man played in TLH (except a bit expanded and meaningful, with some action)

This sounds like A LOT, but to beat The Dark Knight and The Joker, they would have to have a very thick, powerful, and complicated murder/crime thriller to top it.

 

[Melkay]

yea but the joker doesn't have to be exactly the same does he? maybe his stay in arkham could slightly change his characteristics? being someone who is obviously hyper and doesn't stop thinking like the joker imagen what it would be like to be locked up in a padded cell for 24/7. i reckon that could make him even more angry with the "establishment" and even more fixated on his "play-mate" batman. who knows his personality could completely change, maybe he wouldn't care about proving points about societies morals and just want to kill everyone?

Then he’s not the same character, not to mention that you’re changing some of the very things that made him so great in TDK.

p.s. If he can’t stand Arkham… and he changes because of being locked… then you are not being true to his counterpart in the comics. Not one bit.

Melkay, you need to go back to where this argument has its roots and read Nepenthes's post. They simply stated what would/could be done if a recast was going to be made. Their opinion on whether or not to do a recast was irrelevant.

I understood what he/she said. I just took the opportunity to be vocal about my belief of what a mistake it would be of bringing back the Joker for the next one. It is still an open discussion about villains for the sequel in general.
And I guess I answer you comment with that last bit, Nepenthes.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i didn't post that second one.