The Dark Knight Rises Ideas For Incorporating Characters Into the Nolanverse

[General_Obol]

Forgot about Ra's actually having some form of background...maybe I should watch Begins again soon.

Maybe the loss of the family is supposed to create further connections between Bruce and his enemies. Therefore, Mr. Freeze might actually be the villain that best fits thematically.

 

[sabetoonth]

when fitting that theme, of teh guy who becomes a villian only in the end

 

[General_Obol]

when fitting that theme, of teh guy who becomes a villian only in the end

A villain like Freeze wouldn't have to appear until the very end, anyway. Only so many times you see a guy get shot at with an ice gun until it gets very old. The character's story would be better off revolving around his fall from grace, like Dent's.

 

[Indrid Cold]

Ya know what would really tie these films together? this: Ras said in BB that his wife was taken from him, what if (just an idea, a long shot but an idea still) Nolan tied the story together by making Bruce's mom his lost love? When he said taken, he could of meant, Bruce's dad came in and c*** blocked him and took the love of his life as his bride. With this line of thinking Ras could of had Joe Chill sent in to kill Bruce's parents, by making it look like a standard robbery. Talia could reveal this fact to Bruce at some point, knowing that Ras originally meant for Bruce to take the League of Shadows to Gotham, this would build conflict in Bruce towards Talia (once again just a creative plot twist)

 

[Closerframe]

Ya know what would really tie these films together? this: Ras said in BB that his wife was taken from him, what if (just an idea, a long shot but an idea still) Nolan tied the story together by making Bruce's mom his lost love? When he said taken, he could of meant, Bruce's dad came in and c*** blocked him and took the love of his life as his bride. With this line of thinking Ras could of had Joe Chill sent in to kill Bruce's parents, by making it look like a standard robbery. Talia could reveal this fact to Bruce at some point, knowing that Ras originally meant for Bruce to take the League of Shadows to Gotham, this would build conflict in Bruce towards Talia (once again just a creative plot twist)

I don't think family drama or the introduction of Talia is a good story arc for a follow up to The Dark Knight. Plus it would destroy the entire father figure role Bruce's dad has played for him throughout the previous two films.

 

[ViciousValentin]

ya know what would really tie these films together? This: Ras said in bb that his wife was taken from him, what if (just an idea, a long shot but an idea still) nolan tied the story together by making bruce's mom his lost love? When he said taken, he could of meant, bruce's dad came in and c*** blocked him and took the love of his life as his bride. With this line of thinking ras could of had joe chill sent in to kill bruce's parents, by making it look like a standard robbery. Talia could reveal this fact to bruce at some point, knowing that ras originally meant for bruce to take the league of shadows to gotham, this would build conflict in bruce towards talia (once again just a creative plot twist)

huh?

 

[DA Dent]

what Ras failed to tell Bruce was that he also had a hot daughter named Talia....who was single and available......y'know.....should Bruce decide to stay with the League of Shadows......

and if that couldn't convince Bruce to stay with the League....well....he is truly a lost cause........

Wouldn't that sound kind of weird if Ra's himself said that, "oh and by the way, I have a hot daughter."

 

[ViciousValentin]

VERSION 3

Bruce will struggle hard with the consequences of being Batman and will vow to give up. The only way to do this is to replace Harvey Dent himself or find someone that can do it and support them both as Wayne and as Batman.

The employee from TDK who found blueprints for Tumbler (BATMOBILE)is found murdered leading to an even greater pressure from the city for Gordon to capture Batman and Gordon himself now doesn’t know who to trust even Batman himself. Batman is framed for the murder.

A new and mysterious female D.A. emerges Talia Head and sparks the interest of Bruce Wayne and she is secretly Talia al Ghul (Despite not appearing in Batman Begins, where Ra's al Ghul is the main villain, she is mentioned in the novelization when Ra's writes to his daughter in Switzerland and al Ghul's character biography in the DVD special features.)
The Joker was simply a pawn used by a mobster who wanted to move in on the Falconne family. This is the Black Mask an older man , rich, a rogue member of the league of shadows After leaving the League he formed the false face society who recruited the Joker tortured him and drove him insane with the blue flowers (great way to go back show Joker's origin) Black Mask's most important weapons are fear and intimidation. He is known for his brutal and sadistic torture techniques, especially on the face. To the Black Mask, Joker’s purpose was served as he drove the Batman from hero to vigilante in the general public eye
the Black Mask is secretly also a wealthy business man and has the pull to push around Bruce Wayne and also fabricate documents and information. His Intel is unparalleled, he nearly completes a hostile takeover of Wayne enterprises, and he is a master criminal strategist with vast amount of resources. He was the crime lord of Gotham city for many years as an undercover businessman and was the original target of Ras al Ghul. Black Mask also uses his connections to gather information on his enemies, and then hits them at their weak points, such as family and friends. (ties to Thomas Wayne, and his death) The Black Mask infiltrates Wayne Enterprises and also kills Lucious Fox. Black Mask commits a series of murders disguised as Batman. This plan was complicated by the escape of Joker. Joker finds and kills Black Mask exposing his true identity.
Talia Al Ghul will lead a team of the league of shadows in revenge for her father’s death she knows Bruce Wayne is Batman and this poses a serious threat since everyone is on the hunt for Batman she is unaware of whom the Black mask is and that he was a partner with her father in the league.

Gordon discovers he must find a way to get info out of the Joker, while in Arkham he is receiving treatment from a new doctor Dr. Harleen Quinzel who turns out to be an operative of the Black Mask. The Black Mask is determined to kill the Joker to conceal his identity but the operative does a double cross, and frees the Joker.. He then kidnaps Commissioner Gordon and taunts him with enlarged photographs of his wounded (family member), in an attempt to prove that any normal man can go insane after having "one really bad day." The Joker ridicules him as an example of "the average man," a naïve weakling doomed to insanity.

The False Face Society and the League of Shadows Hunters led by Talia go to war in the streets of Gotham. Talia plays into Bruce until the Joker exposes her true identity. She is a complex character, not quite heroine nor villainess but more of an anti-hero.

Climax would be Joker now heading the mob in replace of the Black Mask and has a plan to detonate another bomb similar to what destroys Wayne enterprises. Batman has to take down remaining league of shadows hunters, False Face Society and stop the Joker.

Talia ends up stepping in front of bullet meant for Batman as her heart has changed after she has witnessed all the destruction caused by her own fathers hand and that of their followers.
K.B. 8/24/09

 

[General_Obol]

Would Talia even need to be Ra's daughter? Given the presumed age of the characters, wouldn't Talia be in like high school or something? I think it would be reasonable for Talia to be a successor of some sort. Make the term "Ra's al Ghul" the title of the head of the League of Shadows, and then Talia could just be the second Ra's al Ghul.

Nolan's taken numerous liberties with the characters before. It could definitely happen.

 

[ViciousValentin]

Would Talia even need to be Ra's daughter? Given the presumed age of the characters, wouldn't Talia be in like high school or something? I think it would be reasonable for Talia to be a successor of some sort. Make the term "Ra's al Ghul" the title of the head of the League of Shadows, and then Talia could just be the second Ra's al Ghul.

Nolan's taken numerous liberties with the characters before. It could definitely happen.

A new and mysterious female D.A. emerges Talia Head and sparks the interest of Bruce Wayne and she is secretly Talia al Ghul (Despite not appearing in Batman Begins, where Ra's al Ghul is the main villain, she is mentioned in the novelization when Ra's writes to his daughter in Switzerland and al Ghul's character biography in the DVD special features.)
Seeing this has already been made part of this medium it would be a mistake to alter that.

 

[KalMart]

Talia.....Head? Is this an Austin Powers movie? j/k

 

[General_Obol]

A new and mysterious female D.A. emerges Talia Head and sparks the interest of Bruce Wayne and she is secretly Talia al Ghul (Despite not appearing in Batman Begins, where Ra's al Ghul is the main villain, she is mentioned in the novelization when Ra's writes to his daughter in Switzerland and al Ghul's character biography in the DVD special features.)
Seeing this has already been made part of this medium it would be a mistake to alter that.

Novelizations of films tend to not be considered by the films' directors.

Talia.....Head? Is this an Austin Powers movie? j/k

It's actually an alias of her's from the comics. Ra's al Ghul means "the demon's head" or something like that, so it served as both an alias and a hint at her true identity. And it's not as blatant as Talia Demon.

 

[Thurman]

ok so i think that the joker should be in the third movie... heath was unbelievable but we need the joker to be in the movies along with two face because he was just plain bad ass! but for a recast of the joker, no one will want to top that because it was just unbelievable how it was portrayed .. i'm not saying we need a better performance, but a tribute performance to heath and i believe that joseph gordon levitt is a young talented actor who would be the person to pull it off and is the type of actor that nolan would look for, an actor that is underrated. JGL is perfect for the role and hes already working with nolan in inception so nolan may very well pick him if he is to recast the joker.. any thoughts? let me know

 

[Infinity9999x]

VERSION 3

B
The Joker was simply a pawn used by a mobster who wanted to move in on the Falconne family. This is the Black Mask an older man , rich, a rogue member of the league of shadows After leaving the League he formed the false face society who recruited the Joker tortured him and drove him insane with the blue flowers (great way to go back show Joker's origin) Black Mask's most important weapons are fear and intimidation. He is known for his brutal and sadistic torture techniques, especially on the face. To the Black Mask, Joker’s purpose was served as he drove the Batman from hero to vigilante in the general public eye

Sorry man, but I just can't go with the bolded part. Showing Joker's origin ruins what made the character so great to begin with, and making him a pawn does not fit at all with his character. As I said before, Joker is simply too smart. He was shown to have beaten both Ras and Bane at chess while locked in Arkham in the comics.

Now, if you could change it to show that Black Mask somehow manipulated Joker from the shadows, without his immediate knowledge (thus spurning Joker's desire for revenge) or that Black Mask made a deal with the Joker and double crossed him (again spurning Joker's desire for revenge) or again, maybe Black Mask sets Joker free in hopes of using him in his enterprises and is double crossed by the Joker.

And also, if you want to do The Killing Joke thing with Gordon, it doesn't fit at all thematically if you have it revealed that the Black Mask was the one who "created" the Joker. Because then it wasn't just "one bad day" that drove him insane, it was one crazy man who tortured him into insanity. It ruins the theme of that character.

And again, part of what made The Killing Joke such a good book is the line "something like that happened to me you know...I'm not quite sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

Revealing the Joker's origin=big no no.

 

[NoirMan82]

Sorry man, but I just can't go with the bolded part. Showing Joker's origin ruins what made the character so great to begin with, and making him a pawn does not fit at all with his character. As I said before, Joker is simply too smart. He was shown to have beaten both Ras and Bane at chess while locked in Arkham in the comics.

Now, if you could change it to show that Black Mask somehow manipulated Joker from the shadows, without his immediate knowledge (thus spurning Joker's desire for revenge) or that Black Mask made a deal with the Joker and double crossed him (again spurning Joker's desire for revenge) or again, maybe Black Mask sets Joker free in hopes of using him in his enterprises and is double crossed by the Joker.

And also, if you want to do The Killing Joke thing with Gordon, it doesn't fit at all thematically if you have it revealed that the Black Mask was the one who "created" the Joker. Because then it wasn't just "one bad day" that drove him insane, it was one crazy man who tortured him into insanity. It ruins the theme of that character.

And again, part of what made The Killing Joke such a good book is the line "something like that happened to me you know...I'm not quite sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

Revealing the Joker's origin=big no no.

A near unfogivable no-no. I wouldn't suggest any story point that would comprimise Joker's motives or characterization from TDK. Just as TDK's story more or less stayed away from the main archs of BB, the third movie should do the same.

 

[ViciousValentin]

A near unfogivable no-no. I wouldn't suggest any story point that would comprimise Joker's motives or characterization from TDK. Just as TDK's story more or less stayed away from the main archs of BB, the third movie should do the same.

I do like that suggestion but I also would want to tie the False Face Society and the scars and Jokers face together somehow.

This then gives his appearance some background as there has always been some sort of background on why the JOker appears the way he does. Great suggestions though I'd go with Black Mask double crossing Joker. Perhaps it was Black Mask who unleashed the Joker on Gotham to tear apart the mob while also destroying Batman's persona in the public eye.

This is good stuff....

 

[ViciousValentin]

Sorry man, but I just can't go with the bolded part. Showing Joker's origin ruins what made the character so great to begin with, and making him a pawn does not fit at all with his character. As I said before, Joker is simply too smart. He was shown to have beaten both Ras and Bane at chess while locked in Arkham in the comics.

Now, if you could change it to show that Black Mask somehow manipulated Joker from the shadows, without his immediate knowledge (thus spurning Joker's desire for revenge) or that Black Mask made a deal with the Joker and double crossed him (again spurning Joker's desire for revenge) or again, maybe Black Mask sets Joker free in hopes of using him in his enterprises and is double crossed by the Joker.

And also, if you want to do The Killing Joke thing with Gordon, it doesn't fit at all thematically if you have it revealed that the Black Mask was the one who "created" the Joker. Because then it wasn't just "one bad day" that drove him insane, it was one crazy man who tortured him into insanity. It ruins the theme of that character.

And again, part of what made The Killing Joke such a good book is the line "something like that happened to me you know...I'm not quite sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

Revealing the Joker's origin=big no no.

What if he tortured him in one day though? Would the blue flowers work???

 

[ViciousValentin]

Version 4

Bruce will struggle hard with the consequences of being Batman and will vow to give up. The only way to do this is to replace Harvey Dent himself or find someone that can do it and support them both as Wayne and as Batman. He will have the fight of his life as he is challenged as both Batman and Bruce Wayne by Roman Sionis a.k.a. Black Mask and The League of Shadows under the leadership of Talia AL Ghul. As well as the fact the Batman is now public enemy number one.

The employee from TDK who found blueprints for Tumbler (BATMOBILE)is found murdered leading to an even greater pressure from the city for Gordon to capture Batman and Gordon himself now doesn’t know who to trust even Batman himself. Batman is framed for the murder.

A new and mysterious female D.A. emerges Talia Head and sparks the interest of Bruce Wayne and she is secretly Talia al Ghul (Despite not appearing in Batman Begins, where Ra's al Ghul is the main villain, she is mentioned in the novelization when Ra's writes to his daughter in Switzerland and al Ghul's character biography in the DVD special features.)

The Joker was used by a mobster who wanted to move in on the Falconne family, to tear apart the structure buil up by Sal Maroni and at the same time destroy the influence of Batman in the streets of Gotham. This is the Black Mask an older man, rich, a rogue member of the league of shadows. After leaving the League he formed the false face society who recruited the Joker. Black Mask's most important weapons are fear and intimidation. He is known for his brutal and sadistic torture techniques, especially on the face. He sees the Joker’s purpose was served as he drove the Batman from hero to vigilante in the general public eye. The Black Mask is secretly also a wealthy business man and has the pull to push around Bruce wayne and also fabricate documents and information. His Intel is unparalleled, he nearly completes a hostile takeover of Wayne enterprises, and he is a master criminal strategist with vast amount of resources. He was the crime lord of Gotham city for many years as an undercover businessman and was the original target of Ras al Ghul. Black Mask also uses his connections to gather information on his enemies, and then hits them at their weak points, such as family and friends. (ties to Thomas Wayne, and his death) The Black Mask infiltrates Wayne Enterprises and also kills Lucious Fox. Black Mask commits a series of murders disguised as Batman. This plan is complicated by the escape of Joker. Joker finds and seeks revenge on the Black Mask exposing his true identity and scarring him in the process.

Talia Al Ghul will lead a team of the league of shadows in revenge for her fathers death she knows Bruce Wayne is Batman and this poses a serious threat since everyone is on the hunt for Batman she is unaware of whom the Black mask is and that he was a partner with her father in the league. The False Face Society and the League of Shadows Hunters led by Talia go to war in the streets of Gotham. She is a complex character, not quite heroine nor villainess but more of an anti-hero.

Gordon discovers he must find a way to get info out of the Joker, while in Arkham he is receiving treatment from a new doctor Dr. Harleen Quinzel who turns out to be an operative of the Black Mask. The Black Mask is determined to kill the Joker to conceal his identity but the operative does a double cross, and frees the Joker. He then kidnaps Commissioner Gordon and taunts him with enlarged photographs of his wounded (family member), in an attempt to prove that any normal man can go insane after having "one really bad day." The Joker ridicules him as an example of "the average man," a naïve weakling doomed to insanity. Again giving an explanation of the scars on his face to Gordon with a knife pressed to the inside of the Commissioner’s mouth "something like that happened to me you know...I'm not quite sure what it was. Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" The Joker knowing the true identity of Black Mask and his intent on taking over Wayne Enterprises destroys the Wayne tower to announce to Gotham that he is again free and that terror has returned to Gotham.
Climax would be Joker now destroying what’s left of the mob and has a plan to detonate another bomb similar to what destroys Wayne enterprises.

Batman has to take down False Face Society and stop the Joker

Talia ends up stepping in front of bullet meant for Batman as her heart has changed after she has witnessed all the destruction caused
by her own fathers hand and that of their followers.

By the end of the movie the citizens of Gotham realize that Batman is the only one who can level the playing field against the powers of the criminally insane and the corrupt powers that be in Gotham City.

 

[Infinity9999x]

What if he tortured him in one day though? Would the blue flowers work???

Simply put, revealing the Joker's origin is a bad idea. It's just not going to be good for the character. As I've said, part of the reason the character in TDK was so great is because we don't know what made him that way. We only know that he told multiple stories about how he might have gotten that way, but we have no idea if he's lying, telling a bit of truth in each story, so messed up that he actually believes each story he tells is true, if he scarred himself, if the scars caused him to go crazy or if the scars came after he was crazy, ect. ect.

The not knowing, and guessing at what he was, is part of what makes the character fun.

It's like every great horror movie character. Think of Jason, Freddy, or Michael Myers in their first movies. We were given the bare bones of their back stories, and it worked, because not knowing makes the character more intriguing, and in their cases, more frightening.

So no, revealing what happened to the Joker is a very, very, VERY bad idea. As I said above, part of what made The Killing Joke so great is his line at the end

If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!

He thinks it was "one bad day" that caused him to be the way he was, but heck, he doesn't even know it. He thinks that's what happened, but he really has no idea.

Revealing the Joker's past ruins part of what made the character great. So stay away from that. However, if you work in the Black Mask betraying him angle, after trying to get the Joker to work with him for his own means, that would work much better. Everything else about your idea works very well.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I do like that suggestion but I also would want to tie the False Face Society and the scars and Jokers face together somehow.

This then gives his appearance some background as there has always been some sort of background on why the JOker appears the way he does. Great suggestions though I'd go with Black Mask double crossing Joker. Perhaps it was Black Mask who unleashed the Joker on Gotham to tear apart the mob while also destroying Batman's persona in the public eye.

This is good stuff....

No, it's not.

Again I gotta question whether you are being serious. You fail to grasp simple and obvious character traits.

Joker would not work for someone else, unless he plans to eventually double cross them. And no way in hell would Joker be double crossed by another villain.

 

[Infinity9999x]

No, it's not.

Again I gotta question whether you are being serious. You fail to grasp simple and obvious character traits.

Joker would not work for someone else, unless he plans to eventually double cross them. And no way in hell would Joker be double crossed by another villain.

The Joker's not infallible, he could work with Mask for a bit, (planning to double cross him of course) but Black Mask beats him to the punch, or in short, simply decides to "terminate" their agreement. Obviously, the Joker would be expecting this, and with his own plans laid, manages to escape, to come back and seek revenge on him later.

 

[sabetoonth]

what if the part of him having a wife was real, and she had the gambling problem, what if she owed roamn the money? and he scarred them both, though i would vary quickly have a line like
"remeber blank about the day you got thos scars?"
just hint at it vary quickly and enough that you still have hardly an idea, or if as a nothr twist, jokers wifew wasnt scarred but tortured and murdered, and then he went nuts

 

[Infinity9999x]

what if the part of him having a wife was real, and she had the gambling problem, what if she owed roamn the money? and he scarred them both, though i would vary quickly have a line like
"remeber blank about the day you got thos scars?"
just hint at it vary quickly and enough that you still have hardly an idea, or if as a nothr twist, jokers wifew wasnt scarred but tortured and murdered, and then he went nuts

No, because it still destroys the mystery. If Black Mask says something like that, then the audience will obviously know that Black Mask is the one who scarred him, and the mystery is broken.

You don't reveal Joker's origin. They've never done it in the comics, and it should never be done with Nolan's Joker, especially after the treatment Nolan gave him. The mystery is one of the things that made the character such a compelling villain.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Wouldn't it be crazy if the joker gets out of jai at the end of the 3rd. His hair is scruffy but combed, his makeup is done but it is less rushed and messy, so jail has just made him somewhat more like his comicbook countr part.

 

[sabetoonth]

No, because it still destroys the mystery. If Black Mask says something like that, then the audience will obviously know that Black Mask is the one who scarred him, and the mystery is broken.

You don't reveal Joker's origin. They've never done it in the comics, and it should never be done with Nolan's Joker, especially after the treatment Nolan gave him. The mystery is one of the things that made the character such a compelling villain.

what i mean is make such a refernce that you really have to be paying like all your brain pwer on the entire movie to pick up on it, so if your not lookin for it, you wont see it, keeping the mystery, in all fairness your right, the best villains are the ones youdont know anything about
everyone keeps quoting ducard about his wife, i thought he said"once i wife, a daughter, they were ...taken from me"