ntcrawler said:
That's a point I'd like to emphasize as well.. Not only are Claremont's novels not the comics, but they're not even based on his ideas. The supposed romantic connections between Jean and Logan, especially in the X3 novel is not Claremont's idea but something created by Penn and Kinberg in their script that Claremont had to rely on to write his novelization. And even so, when I read the X3 novel, in all the scenes dealing with Jean's struggle and current mental state as Phoenix / Dark Phoenix, there is oftentimes a reference to Scott whith Claremont pointing out that he's the key here and without him Jean's chances of surviving this are slim. Almost as if he was not personally satisfied with how things had been set up and didn't like to go in that direction.
Well, at least it's based on the movie continuity. That was my point, it's not the comics.
In the novel, regardless of whether she would wind up with Scott or not, there
is a clear division of feelings there. A significant part of her that wants to be with Logan. It's mentioned several times in both novels.
Peter Sanderson, the long time X Men historian and Marvel continuity guru, was very troubled by it. He felt it undermined the Jean/Scott relationship.
I agree.
I don't think this was anything that was forced on Claremont, either. Not having read his 1991 proposed story(if he hadn't left the books) and how much of the post 1986 Jean/Logan stuff he was involved in.
Hell, he created Jean/Logan. There is nothing in the original UXM 94-137 that indicates that Jean/Phoenix./whatever gave Logan a second thought. It was conmpletely one sided.
Claremont retconned in that Jean had been attracted to Logan when they first met. This was after she came back in 1986.
It seems to be portrayed as a friendship with some harmless flirting. And even after their kiss Jean was pretty quick at disengaging herself from the situation and putting a cork on the matter. Which then seems so strange for why she would so strongly connect with him again in X3 when he professes his love to her in the final moments of the Alcatraz battle. Just seems like too much of a leap for my comfort. Seems like that should have been Scott's line, just like the "you might not come back, she might not come back" lines earlier before boarding the plane.
I think it's fairly obvious that plenty of what Logan did with Jean in X3 should have been Scott's role. The calming influence role should have been Scott's.
I don't see comics Jean Grey ever saying what movie Jean said in the second movie. Girls flirt with the bad boy, but go home with the good guy.
IMO, comics Jean is not a flirt. I suppose she has with Scott, but as a rule, no. Betsy has been a flirt, Rogue, Gambt, Logan. As a rule, Jean is not a flirt.
There are little things that bothered me.
At the end of the second movie, when she was leaving the plane, I think her focus should have been on Scott. Have the camera focus on him for maybe 5 seconds. Instead, we see her looking at Scott, but also at Logan who had Nightcrawler next to him. Her concern for Logan when she first sees him back on the plane. "Are you okay?"
This all indicates strong feelings for Logan.
Logan's line at the end, she choose you.
There never was a choice in the comics.
For what it's been in the comics, Jean/Logan should have been touched on and been done with by the end of the first movie. Then spend the other movies focusing on the real couple. The book's signature couple for 40 years.
So it wasn't his limited schedule after all? I was just as shocked to find out. Still it's hard to stomach either way. They went to alot of trouble to set up Marsden for his limited role. Even all those publicity shots of him looking smart and sharp in his X-Men uniform even though he never wears it in the film. Did they go to all that trouble just to give Marsden something to do while he was in Vancouver?
Good questions. I don't have the answers.
Because translating something from any kind of source material to screen requires a certain kind of art and finesse that's difficult to master but extremely important in order to do a movie right. Some things obviously have to be changed, others must not because they represent fundamental characteristics that make the characters and the movie what they are. If you mess those up you ruin the whole image. I'm under the impression that Singer is better at this type of art than Ratner.
I see people rave about Singer and, frankly, I don't think he did that much better with Scott or Scott/Jean.
Obviously, nothing is going to be exact in a translation. IMO, things like the Shiar in Dark Phoenix are trappings. You don't change the fundamental, intrinsic elements of the X Men mythos.
Change trappings, not the fundamental aspects of the franchise. The costumes would be another thing I'd view as trappings.
2 of those intrinsic elements are the Scott/Jean and Xavier/Magneto relationships. It's why they are in every incarnation of the series. And I think the movies did Xavier/Magneto more justice than they did Jean/Scott.
Regarding Wolverine and his role in the movies. Yes, he is the most popular X Men. Yes, he has the most exposure.
However, this has not lead to him dominating the team books. His popularity gets hm his own series, limited seris, guest appearances. The team X books have never read as Logan and friends. The movies are the equivalent of the team books.
I happen to think the movies could have done just as well with a more balanced approach. It's all conjecture at this point. Once the first movie was a hit, they weren't going to change the formula.
When Penn and Kinsberg say the previous 2 movies have set up it for Logan to be the one to stop Jean, I think they've got a point. He'd been the star and hero of both previous movies.
Before I ever read any rumors about X3, I never thought they'd do Dark Phoenix with Jean and Scott as the central characters, as in the comics. Okay, I didn't think Scott would be killed early on, but I always thought Logan would be in the middle of it. That's just a continuation of something the other movies set up.
I've had problems with each of the movies. Not to say I haven't really liked parts of each. I loved how Nightcrawler was done, I loved how Beast was done.
I don't hate the movies, but there are things I wish they'd done better. Unfortunately, many of those things involved my favorite X Men.
Someone else menioned the comic writers never giving Jean and Scott a break. They were happily married for 5 1/2 years real time. Over thir entire history, they've had more obstacles than most. Speaking for myself, that was part of their appeal. It wasn't easy for them, they had to persevere.
I think they're in a shambles now, but that's because of Morrison. Not something previous writers had done.
And unlike the Xorn/Magneto stuff, Marvel didn't fix what he did with Scott and Jean. They built on it.
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