James Bond In Skyfall - Part 6

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Thats probably one reason Cubby wanted him for so long. Dalton had those Golden age Hollywood leading man good looks. More chiseled. Thats why he fit so well in The Rocketeer. Strangely enough he showed more of the charm some people say he lacked as Bond. I think Dalton was lacking that macho sexuality that Craig has.

I'm not gay (not that there's anything wrong with that) but even though Dalton is more traditionally better looking I could see why women would find Craig more magnetic. Its a similar thing that Connery had though I've known girls that said Connery and Dalton were their favorite Bonds because of the way they looked.

It would have been interesting to see that often dreamed about pure fantasy Cary Grant/Alfred Hitchcock James Bond movie that some always wish had happened. I think Grant actually was considered for Bond at point during the casting of Dr No but turned it down.

Yeah, EON didn't think Grant would commit himself to a franchise, so they didn't offer him the role.

I always felt like the first two Bond movies, especially FRWL, had the feeling of a Hitchcock movie. They were both very Hitchcock inspired.

 

[Metallo]

Well of course he's not as good as Moore. Moore is tops when it comes to be humor. The problem with Moore was that he was fed too many one liners by the time Octopussy and a AVTAK came around.

I know. Thats what I said. Thats the point I was trying to make but I think you missed it. As for Moore's last two films there were just a lot of problems. One of which was that he should have stepped down before AVTAK

Like someone else said Brosnan had the same problem in his later films with the one liners. Like they were checking off what Bond had to do in each film. But at least Moore was better at it.

And Glen was part of the Bond staff for a long time, as he started as an editor for On Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Yes I knew he'd been in the family so to speak for years.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

So we just agreed on everything? Cool.

 

[DACrowe]

I love Casino Royale, but I love a few other Bond movies more because I do like some of the more traditional elements that were missing in CR. That's what I can't wait for Skyfall. Some of that is coming back.

Indeed. I love CR, but only liked the scenes in QQOS that directly related to CR (any scene where they talked about Vesper or that had the French actor from the previous film). Otherwise it was just too dry, too Bourne and not enough like Bond. For example, I thought this:

Had more of the charm and fun one expects from EON's Bond that was completely absent from QOS. I don't want invisible cars, but I'd like Bond ot have some fun in Skyfall.

I don't hate any of the Bonds either. All of them have their different strengths and they were realized in at least 1 of their movies.

I have been hard in this thread on Dalton, but I didn't hate his Bond. I appreciate he tried to play Fleming's Bond and it worked in some scenes (even if I think overall it missed the mark). The only actor to play Bond I really disliked was George Lazenby. Even he had two great moments. The first was when he panicked in the skiing village before Diana Riggs finds him and again when she dies in his arms. He did the very human moments well. The rest of the movie though, he felt like a wooden imitation of Sean Connery to me.

 

[BritishChap007]

Indeed. I love CR, but only liked the scenes in QQOS that directly related to CR (any scene where they talked about Vesper or that had the French actor from the previous film). Otherwise it was just too dry, too Bourne and not enough like Bond. For example, I thought this:

Had more of the charm and fun one expects from EON's Bond that was completely absent from QOS. I don't want invisible cars, but I'd like Bond ot have some fun in Skyfall.



I have been hard in this thread on Dalton, but I didn't hate his Bond. I appreciate he tried to play Fleming's Bond and it worked in some scenes (even if I think overall it missed the mark). The only actor to play Bond I really disliked was George Lazenby. Even he had two great moments. The first was when he panicked in the skiing village before Diana Riggs finds him and again when she dies in his arms. He did the very human moments well. The rest of the movie though, he felt like a wooden imitation of Sean Connery to me.

The desert chase in MI4 is really something QOS could have had. MI4 used every one of its locations. Bond just kind of went places in QOS, nothing inventive like a high speed chase in a sand storm.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I have been hard in this thread on Dalton, but I didn't hate his Bond. I appreciate he tried to play Fleming's Bond and it worked in some scenes (even if I think overall it missed the mark). The only actor to play Bond I really disliked was George Lazenby. Even he had two great moments. The first was when he panicked in the skiing village before Diana Riggs finds him and again when she dies in his arms. He did the very human moments well. The rest of the movie though, he felt like a wooden imitation of Sean Connery to me.

That's one problem I had with Lazenby. The other problem I had was that he came off as too happy-go-lucky looking in some scenes, such as the scenes where was going to Draco's office in the car.

 

[DACrowe]

Brosnan seemed more like a parody at his worst. A pretty boy trying to be tough. Dalton, Connery, Lazenby, and Craig all outdid him there. He tried to be Moore with the one liners but was never as witty or charming or good at the delivery.

I know we're going in a circle at this point, but I really disagree with that. I bought him as Bond, albeit his Bond was more of a shootist than as physically scrappy as Connery or Craig's. Still, I think his final beatdown with 006 in GE is the second best fight scene in the whole series (the first is Connery vs. Shaw in FRWL). I don't think he was a pretty boy at all--as in effeminate--which is what you imply. He was a suave handsome actor who played Bond as a boyishly charming cynic with a mean bitter side. I liked the approach as it wasn't all cartoonish charm like Moore or growling anger like Dalton. Just agree to disagree.

Campbell may very well be the best Bond director of the last 30 years (Mendes might outdo him soon) but even Campbell is only as good as his scripts. Green Lantern and Legend of Zorro proved that. Even he couldn't tell a poor story like those but even his actual direction seemed to suffer because he had nothing to work with.

True, but I think TND, TWINE or QOS would all have been better if he had directed them (nobody could have saved the DAD script). All three of those movies had elements that worked and interesting story ideas (media mogul villain, evil manipulative Bond girl, and Bond on revenge, respectively), but like Dalton's two outings, the direction just wasn't exciting or the tone fell flat. Campbell gets how to make the character work in the modern world. He never got Green Lantern and LOZ was basically a DAD-level piece of script awfulness.

Mendes is one of the freshest choices EON made instead of going with a lesser known director they can keep under their thumb or a "member of the Bond family" so to speak.

I think EON has given up trying to develop directors to be part of the "Bond Family" at this point. They tried cultivating Campbell and everyone after him into another Terrence Young, Guy Hamilton, John Glen, etc. But Bond is now seen by many filmmakers as a one-and-done affair. A chance to do "their" Bond movie. I think by EON embracing that and hiring real talent like Mendes is a wise decision. Get someone with a great resume who will play by EON's rules and make something that hopefully is very entertaining.

 

[DACrowe]

Oh and for those who want to see a Bond that is a spitting image of what Fleming described?

Not to bring that back up. I think he won't get the part ever because by the time Craig retires he'll be either too old to do his first Bond outing or that and also too famous. Oh well.

 

[Metallo]

I know we're going in a circle at this point, but I really disagree with that. I bought him as Bond, albeit his Bond was more of a shootist than as physically scrappy as Connery or Craig's. Still, I think his final beatdown with 006 in GE is the second best fight scene in the whole series (the first is Connery vs. Shaw in FRWL). I don't think he was a pretty boy at all--as in effeminate--which is what you imply. He was a suave handsome actor who played Bond as a boyishly charming cynic with a mean bitter side. I liked the approach as it wasn't all cartoonish charm like Moore or growling anger like Dalton. Just agree to disagree.

Where did I imply he's effeminate? I said he was a pretty boy trying to look tough. Nothing more nothing less. Show enough respect not to put words in my mouth. The big showdown between 007 and 006 had more to do with Campbells direction and the staging than just Brosnan...otherwise he always would have had fight sequences that looked that good. Brosnan did his part well but he was never as exceptionally athletic or tough as some other Bonds.

He tried to have "a mean bitter side" but it rarely ever looked convincing IMO. His Bond was rarely ever that deep but that was more the fault of the hokey thin material he was given. "growling anger of Dalton?" Thats a bit of a stretch.

True, but I think TND, TWINE or QOS would all have been better if he had directed them (nobody could have saved the DAD script). All three of those movies had elements that worked and interesting story ideas (media mogul villain, evil manipulative Bond girl, and Bond on revenge, respectively), but like Dalton's two outings, the direction just wasn't exciting or the tone fell flat. Campbell gets how to make the character work in the modern world. He never got Green Lantern and LOZ was basically a DAD-level piece of script awfulness.

Thats because those other three directors where little more than guns for hire by the producers. Campbell gets how to translate a good script. He also revived Zorro because he had something to work with but in the next outing he didn't. He was hired to kickstart GL because he'd done it with other larger than life characters but once again he's never been one of those guys that can take weak material and give it a midas touch.

Some of Brosnans movies fell flatter than Daltons because of the scripts but since they were pure popcorn films riding off the success of GoldenEye and Brosnans charm they made money.

 

[ChickenScratch]

It's amazing how much Dalton eerily looks like Fleming's depiction of Bond.

When I was reading Casino Royale and Live and Let Die, I had Dalton's Bond pictured in my head. However, my problems with Dalton is that his acting did feel forced in some situations and that in comparison to Craig, he lacks the subtle charm and sense of humor in some scenes.

By the way, how close is Craig's Bond to the books and what keeps him from being closer to novel Bond than Dalton?
.

Well, DC could "look" like the character (more) at least. His portrayal is very much like Fleming's man and consequently Dalton's because they are playing the same character from the same source.

I guess it's like a Michael Keaton/Christian Bale thing. One just looks the part more but both are the same dude.

 

[Gold Samurai]

I think EON has given up trying to develop directors to be part of the "Bond Family" at this point. They tried cultivating Campbell and everyone after him into another Terrence Young, Guy Hamilton, John Glen, etc. But Bond is now seen by many filmmakers as a one-and-done affair. A chance to do "their" Bond movie. I think by EON embracing that and hiring real talent like Mendes is a wise decision. Get someone with a great resume who will play by EON's rules and make something that hopefully is very entertaining.

So EON treats the directors they hire like how Bond treats his women lol

One night stands

 

[BritishChap007]

So EON treats the directors they hire like how Bond treats his women lol

One night stands

Naw, the directors treat Bond like that. Even Forster or Tamahori were reportedly invited back.

 

[The Englishman]

Oh and for those who want to see a Bond that is a spitting image of what Fleming described?

Not to bring that back up. I think he won't get the part ever because by the time Craig retires he'll be either too old to do his first Bond outing or that and also too famous. Oh well.

Mind = Blown

If Fassbender ever did get the role then he would have to do a different accent then Hiccox because he is too posh, but I'm sure he can.

 

[The Englishman]

GoldenEye is on TV right now on ITV2

 

[DACrowe]

Where did I imply he's effeminate? I said he was a pretty boy trying to look tough. Nothing more nothing less. Show enough respect not to put words in my mouth. The big showdown between 007 and 006 had more to do with Campbells direction and the staging than just Brosnan...otherwise he always would have had fight sequences that looked that good. Brosnan did his part well but he was never as exceptionally athletic or tough as some other Bonds.

The term "pretty boy" is generally derogatory and intended to emasculate the individual. Or in other words, he's not as manly and therefore more effeminate than whoever he's being compared to. I agree he isn't as athletic as Craig or Connery (though certainly moreso than Moore). However, that doesn't mean he can't play Bond as well or that he cannot play dark.

He tried to have "a mean bitter side" but it rarely ever looked convincing IMO. His Bond was rarely ever that deep but that was more the fault of the hokey thin material he was given. "growling anger of Dalton?" Thats a bit of a stretch.

It always seems to me that there are three volumes to Dalton's Bond. The growling, seething anger that shows he has a chip on his shoulder and always irritated by those around him (see his first scene in TLD where he completely mutters "Bond, James Bond" to the woman while on the phone, see him in his second scene in TLD frustratedly yelling at the other MI6 agent to sit in a chair and "shut up" or basically any action scene in his movies, etc.) then there is yelling to show when he is really angry (balloon popping) and last there is awkward romance that is him either giggling as he jumps into a swimming pool at the end LTK or giggling as he jumps into bed at the end TLD.

Some of Brosnans movies fell flatter than Daltons because of the scripts but since they were pure popcorn films riding off the success of GoldenEye and Brosnans charm they made money.

I think all Bond movies are popcorn films. I think Brosnan was just better accepted in the role (see Ebert's even positive review of DAD which boils down to liking Brosnan). Dalton, for whatever reason, was not really accepted in the role. Maybe he would have been if he had a GE type film to open his run. It's hard to say.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I also thought Dalton was too grouchy, even with his supposed friends like Q and Moneypenny. He does this to his colleagues too, and I had a hard time believing that MI6 would actually put up with him for very long with that attitude.

He's also the only Bond actor that didn't get one of the great Bond films. On Her Majesty's Secret Service, The Spy Who Loved Me, Goldeneye, Casino Royale and most of Connery's films are on a whole different level than either of Dalton's two.

I'd take Brosnan over Dalton any day.

 

[Metallo]

The term "pretty boy" is generally derogatory and intended to emasculate the individual. Or in other words, he's not as manly and therefore more effeminate than whoever he's being compared to. I agree he isn't as athletic as Craig or Connery (though certainly moreso than Moore). However, that doesn't mean he can't play Bond as well or that he cannot play dark.

Again show me where the hell I said he was effeminate? Show me those words. Pretty boy and effeminate are not synonymous. If I was going to call him effeminate I would have. Its a case of you putting words in someones mouth. I never said it. Plenty of actors have been called pretty boys because of their LOOKS. Not necessarily because they were effeminate. Effeminate covers MUCH more than his looks. I never said something like "Brosnan walks with a girlish stride or his body language is feminine." THAT would be effeminate. Brosnan was never a rugged macho man like Connery or even Craig. His looks were always softer. Effeminate covers everything from mannerisms to voice.

Brosnan rarely ever played dark and when he did it rarely seemed that credible.

It always seems to me that there are three volumes to Dalton's Bond. The growling, seething anger that shows he has a chip on his shoulder and always irritated by those around him (see his first scene in TLD where he completely mutters "Bond, James Bond" to the woman while on the phone, see him in his second scene in TLD frustratedly yelling at the other MI6 agent to sit in a chair and "shut up" or basically any action scene in his movies, etc.) then there is yelling to show when he is really angry (balloon popping) and last there is awkward romance that is him either giggling as he jumps into a swimming pool at the end LTK or giggling as he jumps into bed at the end TLD.

Funny I don't remember him showing any of that in plenty of scenes. Its such a broad generalization. Serious doesn't necessarily mean he was angry or yelling or whatever.

I think all Bond movies are popcorn films. I think Brosnan was just better accepted in the role (see Ebert's even positive review of DAD which boils down to liking Brosnan). Dalton, for whatever reason, was not really accepted in the role. Maybe he would have been if he had a GE type film to open his run. It's hard to say.

The times his films opened was one problem. As for all the Bonds being popcorn films some are more than others. Casino Royale certainly can't be compared to DAD or Moonraker since it was a much more serious character driven piece that focus less on spectacle.

Brosnans films took the popcorn film aspect to a new level as they went on. While Connerys films set trends the Bond films have been more trend followers for years and it was particularly true with Bronsans films. That Bond flavor slowly diluted until they became more and more generic big budget action films.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Casino Royale may be more serious than DAD or Moonraker, but it is still a big budget action movie designed more for entertainment than art. There are plenty of big set pieces and stunts in Casino Royale. I love the Bond franchise, but all of them are at their heart popcorn films, as are franchises like Star Wars and Indiana Jones. The only one that doesn't really quite fit the same mold is From Russia with Love, but even it I would ultimately consider a popcorn flick.

 

[Gold Samurai]

I also thought Dalton was too grouchy, even with his supposed friends like Q and Moneypenny. He does this to his colleagues too

Living daylights

Kara hugs Bond as he's piloting the plane

-Kara!




License to Kill


- What the hell are you doing here Q?!?!


Bond thinks Pam Bouvier is shot fatally


-You're bloody lucky to be alive!!!

 

[Roose Bolton]

The " I never miss." from TWINE is the perfect Brosnan Bond scene in my opinion. He's a bastard at his core but just happens to have enough charm so that it generally stays hidden until he's pushed hard enough.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Living daylights

Kara hugs Bond as he's piloting the plane

-Kara!




License to Kill


- What the hell are you doing here Q?!?!


Bond thinks Pam Bouvier is shot fatally


-You're bloody lucky to be alive!!!

Those are exceptions, but he spends most of the time complaining, even with them.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

The " I never miss." from TWINE is the perfect Brosnan Bond scene in my opinion. He's a bastard at his core but just happens to have enough charm so that it generally stays hidden until he's pushed hard enough.

With Brosnan's Bond, I've always got the sense that he his hiding some dark past and his normal demeanor is just a facade. He can very cold and bitter at times. This is shown a few times throughout his films, such as when Alec betrays him, his conversation on the beach with Natalya, getting drunk in his hotel in TND, his execution of Dr. Kaufmann, and the aforementioned shooting of Elektra.

I don't hold DAD against Brosnan. Every Bond except Lazenby has had at least one dud, and he was the worst actor of the six. Connery, I think was easily the best of them, and he was in what I believe to be the worst movie in the franchise, Diamonds Are Forever. DAF is the only Bond film that I find boring and hard to get through.

 

[DACrowe]

Again show me where the hell I said he was effeminate? Show me those words. Pretty boy and effeminate are not synonymous. If I was going to call him effeminate I would have. Its a case of you putting words in someones mouth. I never said it. Plenty of actors have been called pretty boys because of their LOOKS. Not necessarily because they were effeminate. Effeminate covers MUCH more than his looks. I never said something like "Brosnan walks with a girlish stride or his body language is feminine." THAT would be effeminate. Brosnan was never a rugged macho man like Connery or even Craig. His looks were always softer. Effeminate covers everything from mannerisms to voice.

Brosnan rarely ever played dark and when he did it rarely seemed that credible.

Mistook your mean, because I always thought "pretty boy" was derogative phrase. And it seems you're using it against him in some way. Disagree with him not being able to play dark.

The times his films opened was one problem. As for all the Bonds being popcorn films some are more than others. Casino Royale certainly can't be compared to DAD or Moonraker since it was a much more serious character driven piece that focus less on spectacle.

Brosnans films took the popcorn film aspect to a new level as they went on. While Connerys films set trends the Bond films have been more trend followers for years and it was particularly true with Bronsans films. That Bond flavor slowly diluted until they became more and more generic big budget action films.

CR is not as over-the-top as DAD, but there were entire sequences in the first act that barely served the plot and were mostly there to beef up the spectacle (Bond's long, but amazing chase scene in Madgascar, the entire airport car chase and I don't recall the book CR ending with a Venician building sinking into the canals). And yes, you can say CR is closer to Dr. No and FRWL. But Connery was also in Goldfinger and Thunderball (closer to GoldenEye), as well as YOLT and DAF which is on the same goofy scale as DAD.

 

[DACrowe]

Living daylights

Kara hugs Bond as he's piloting the plane

-Kara!




License to Kill


- What the hell are you doing here Q?!?!


Bond thinks Pam Bouvier is shot fatally


-You're bloody lucky to be alive!!!

Pretty hilarious examples.

With Brosnan's Bond, I've always got the sense that he his hiding some dark past and his normal demeanor is just a facade. He can very cold and bitter at times. This is shown a few times throughout his films, such as when Alec betrays him, his conversation on the beach with Natalya, getting drunk in his hotel in TND, his execution of Dr. Kaufmann, and the aforementioned shooting of Elektra.

I don't hold DAD against Brosnan. Every Bond except Lazenby has had at least one dud, and he was the worst actor of the six. Connery, I think was easily the best of them, and he was in what I believe to be the worst movie in the franchise, Diamonds Are Forever. DAF is the only Bond film that I find boring and hard to get through.

I agree with pretty much all of that. Especially with DAF being the worst in the series.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I agree with pretty much all of that. Especially with DAF being the worst in the series.

I find The Man With The Golden Gun worse. At least DAF didn't put me to sleep.

With Brosnan's Bond, I've always got the sense that he his hiding some dark past and his normal demeanor is just a facade. He can very cold and bitter at times. This is shown a few times throughout his films, such as when Alec betrays him, his conversation on the beach with Natalya, getting drunk in his hotel in TND, his execution of Dr. Kaufmann, and the aforementioned shooting of Elektra.

I don't hold DAD against Brosnan. Every Bond except Lazenby has had at least one dud, and he was the worst actor of the six. Connery, I think was easily the best of them, and he was in what I believe to be the worst movie in the franchise, Diamonds Are Forever. DAF is the only Bond film that I find boring and hard to get through.

Completely agreed. Bond in general always had a coldness to him, and I believe that some of the best Bond movies show that coldness in one way or another (Lazenby is debatable though, but his ass left before his Bond could show it).

People call Roger Moore a joke, but they forget about Moore's Bond's speech to Agent Triple X when she asks him if she killed her boyfriend.

When someone is on ski's at 40 miles an hour trying to put a bullet in your back, you don't always have time to remember a face. In this business Anya, People get killed. We both know that. So did he. It was either him or me. The answer to the question is yes. I did kill him.