James Bond In Skyfall - Part 6

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But from what I hear from poster that know their Bond novels, Fleming has delved into Bond's mind and has done more than once personal/vendetta Bond stories.

beyond that Bond almost always gets too impersonally involved in his missions. The women are always more of a fault rather than a superhero trick of being able to pull them in.

Bond is always, seemingly, genuinely in love. He quits the Service for Tiffany, he contemplates letting death come in Goldfinger because he wonders if he'll see Vesper there.

At the service, yes he is a Brute monster who is focused on his job but the reason M continuously chooses Bond for these jobs because he trust Bond as not only the best but probably the one with enough sense and emotion to complete them.

Bond is a VERY emotional character in the books, he thinks a lot and sometimes that thinking gets him in trouble and sometimes it helps him. He doesn't have many but he does have people he trust, care for and love.

Vesper, Matias, Felix.

He doesn't icy relationships with these characters. He has genuine relationships with these characters and often their potential fates affect how he'll act.
 
JAK®;23295145 said:
But regardless, the way Bond is written in the Fleming novels is from the perspective of an agent. Ian Fleming was an Intelligence Officer, after all.

It's not so much a problem with making it personal as much as it constantly trying to subvert Bond and doing it too heavy-handedly. I actually liked Licence To Kill which was a revenge story, and Goldeneye was decent even though the bad guy was part of Bond's past.

But I miss the mentality of the Connery-era Bond where it was clear that he had a duty and was doing it for his country. Roger Moore nailed it as well. I loved The Spy Who Loved Me because Bond wears his Naval Officer uniform and commands other soldiers at the end.

It's just that every Bond film since 1989 has tried to be all "This time... it's personal" and it's getting old.

Every Bond film has him taking his mission personally in the end. Whether it's puposely quipping when he kills bad guys he despises(often when he kills bad guys he probably doesn't have to but does so out of anger or a thirst for revenge for example Locque in FOR YOUR EYES ONLY), rescuing ppl he's not supposed to like Anya at the end of TSWLM, Octopussy in the movie of the same name Tracy in OHMSS etc and all this before LICENCE TO KILL.

If it was just a job he'd do things by the book and the appeal of James Bond, both comedically AND dramatically, is that he always goes about a mission in a fashion that would get a real world agent fired...assuming they survive.
 
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JAK®;23295145 said:
But regardless, the way Bond is written in the Fleming novels is from the perspective of an agent. Ian Fleming was an Intelligence Officer, after all.

It's not so much a problem with making it personal as much as it constantly trying to subvert Bond and doing it too heavy-handedly. I actually liked Licence To Kill which was a revenge story, and Goldeneye was decent even though the bad guy was part of Bond's past.

But I miss the mentality of the Connery-era Bond where it was clear that he had a duty and was doing it for his country. Roger Moore nailed it as well. I loved The Spy Who Loved Me because Bond wears his Naval Officer uniform and commands other soldiers at the end.

It's just that every Bond film since 1989 has tried to be all "This time... it's personal" and it's getting old.

My point is that it's not an inherently wrong story to pursue. The fact that they're botching it every single time doesn't mean it's not worth doing it right.

And I think LTK suffers from the same traits as every revenge Bond story. They forget about it halfway through. At least there was a sense of consistency in QoS.
 
This one already looks so much better than the huge misfire that was QOS. This teaser was better than that entire film.
 
My point is that it's not an inherently wrong story to pursue. The fact that they're botching it every single time doesn't mean it's not worth doing it right.

And I think LTK suffers from the same traits as every revenge Bond story. They forget about it halfway through. At least there was a sense of consistency in QoS.

Are these inverted? The revenge story stays in LTK but it forgotten in QoS.

I like LTK for what it is, it's missing some Bond elements but I don't think its wrong to pull away every once and a while. everyone says it's Miami Vice but it's better than any Miami Vice episode I've ever seen and Robert Davi was great.

I love the last truck chase and stunts, always exciting for me but yes...

The this time it's personal thing is somewhat inherent in Bond.

Casino Royale didn't play off that and was probably the first in years not to but in the end it was "This time it's personal"

Because that's the flaw in Bond, it either becomes a **** measuring contest with his adversary, the love interest holds him powerfully or the stakes are too high
 
Are these inverted? The revenge story stays in LTK but it forgotten in QoS.

I like LTK for what it is, it's missing some Bond elements but I don't think its wrong to pull away every once and a while. everyone says it's Miami Vice but it's better than any Miami Vice episode I've ever seen and Robert Davi was great.

I love the last truck chase and stunts, always exciting for me but yes...

Script-wise I don't think the revenge angle was forgotten in neither, but the tone in LTK was so cheesy and Dalton at some point started being almost happy-go-lucky, whereas Craig at least remained cold and dead serious.

I did enjoy LTK's act 3, though.
 
The constant references of LTK remind me that incredibly awesome scene with the lighter at the end. Brilliant climax :up:
 
The constant references of LTK remind me that incredibly awesome scene with the lighter at the end. Brilliant climax :up:

And surely I wasn't the only one who noticed that a "Leiter" was the instrument to Sanchez's demise!
 
The constant references of LTK remind me that incredibly awesome scene with the lighter at the end. Brilliant climax :up:

Right, that's the revenge moment. I also love that Bond takes time and befriends Sanchez (is it Sanchez?) and in the end when it all falls apart it makes for a big climax.

It would have been nice to mention Felix at the end but the lighter did the trick I suppose.

Also Q in the field!
 
Hmmmm, maybe I undervalue LTK. I think I'll have to watch it again. But I do remember the cheese being unbearable, especially for a revenge flick.
 
Hmmmm, maybe I undervalue LTK. I think I'll have to watch it again. But I do remember the cheese being unbearable, especially for a revenge flick.

Yeah, there's some parts that are a little odd. The Bond girls aren't very good. The strange Ninja scene is out of place and Wayne Newton's cameos are... fun but a little out of place.

However I think the film does a good job as it goes on and really delivers in climax.
 
JAK®;23295145 said:
But regardless, the way Bond is written in the Fleming novels is from the perspective of an agent. Ian Fleming was an Intelligence Officer, after all.

It's not so much a problem with making it personal as much as it constantly trying to subvert Bond and doing it too heavy-handedly. I actually liked Licence To Kill which was a revenge story, and Goldeneye was decent even though the bad guy was part of Bond's past.

But I miss the mentality of the Connery-era Bond where it was clear that he had a duty and was doing it for his country. Roger Moore nailed it as well. I loved The Spy Who Loved Me because Bond wears his Naval Officer uniform and commands other soldiers at the end.

It's just that every Bond film since 1989 has tried to be all "This time... it's personal" and it's getting old.

You hold a gross misunderstanding of Fleming's novels, and if you cite Casino Royale as good because it was "Bond doing his job again" than that speaks to you not really getting it.

Casino Royale, next to On Her Majesty's Secret Service, is perhaps the MOST personal Bond story Fleming wrote. Bond literally falls in love, and the "spy plot" resolves itself 3/4 of a way through the novel, letting the rest meditate on the destruction of a relationship due to the toxic nature of espionage.

I'm a purist. No actor portraying Bond - including the great vaunted Connery -- is greater or more important than Fleming. Craig, whether fans like it or not, represents the closest representation to Bond since OHMMSS. Fleming's Bond was largely humorous, and when he was it was in a cutting way. He was largely bitter most of the time, and took an almost personal insult in every single case he took. He delighted in taking on the Bond villain for the pure principle of "my malehood versus his malehood."

Bond has a sense of duty, but it's actuated by an intense habit to make EVERYTHING personal. Look at his feud with Hugo Drax in Moonraker, if you've read the novel. He goes down their first, yes, to take on Drax but it their battle of wits becomes insanely personal. Hell, even as they play cards at Blades Bond is already personally invested in teaching this man a lesson. In Diamonds are Forever, he at first takes on the job and then largely becomes more and more invested in punishing -- not killing -- Jack Spang and the others for the mere sake of how they disgust him. In Live and Let Die, his emotions and anger from Vesper's betrayal carries over into him taking on SMERSH. When Felix is mauled, it becomes insanely personal. In fact, M picks him SPECIFICALLY because Bond has a personal history with SMERSH. In Dr. No, Strangeways and Quarrel's deaths both motivate Bond to take the job more seriously and more personal. Thunderball, we have much the same disgust at criminality that motivates Bond. Goldfinger is perhaps Fleming's least personal Bond story, but Bond's male rivalry with Goldfinger himself is very clearly personal and goes beyond Queen and Country.

In From Russia With Love, Bond does not care about the Lector. But it's not out of duty, it's because the Lektor is a clear ploy and set up by the Russians. Why would he care? In the novel, Bond goes out of a sort of boredom, excited by the prospect of a job after having months of boredom. He then finds himself feeling sorry for Tatiana and things become personal when he falls for her and Karim is murdered. In the film, it sets it up much the same sans the boredom Bond was feeling prior to the job. He heads to Istanbul out of a perverse intellectual curiosity.

If you look at most of Fleming's novels, the constant theme is that the duty of Bond doing his job never stays that way, and that each mission has a much more, unforeseen personal toll on Bond each and everytime. But whatever the personal toll, Bond must always reign in his personal feelings by the climax in order to get the job done, which inevitably costs him more and more personal angst than had he been able to exercise his personal feelings. This is reinforced twice in QoS when Bond lets Green live so he can get the information for M (which is the boon of the story) as well as when he spares the life of the man who conned Vesper (also allowing them more info). This takes place in the novels too, where Bond is either denied his revenge or personal emotive satisfaction, or puts it aside to get the job done. Just look at the first few Bond novels, where Bond himself never actually gets to directly kill the Bond villain. SMERSH kils Le Chifree, Mr. Big dies faraway in an explosion that while caused by Bond is very impersonal, Hugo Drax dies by his own hand with Bond just focusing on surviving, Jack Spang dies in a train crash that is a errant consequence of his and Bond's fight. In all these cases, Bond is denied personal satisfaction yet gets the job done. By the time Bond arrives at On Her Majesty's Secret Service, he's tired and eager for real love -- thus why he finds Tracey. And in You Only Live Twice, we get a sense of what's left over after Bond's last attempt to escape the poison of the spy business fails -- he is a suicidal wreck of a man hellbent on revenge.

I'm not saying Bond movies are prefect. I think some people treat the films with more reverie then the source material, which created one of the greatest film icons of all-time. ANd I don't knock the Brocollis too much, because they have helmed a character who has existed for so long and so permeates our culture. I do find the Dalton, Brosnan, and Craig movies more engaging because they begin to challenge Bond's emotional responses to his job, much the same way Fleming did with Bond.

But to sit here and say that because Roger Moore wore a suit and ordered around soldiers for Queen and Country, somehow made him a better Bond and more Bond -- that's just entirely false. Even Fleming, in his novels, has a constant theme of insubordination on the part of Bond. It was never for Queen and Country so much as it was for M -- and the principal Bond always returns to, and is always loyal to, is getting the job done.

Craig perhaps embodies that perfectly in that he is a bulldozer spy that does not stop until he's crushed you and finished you. He is an agent that M wields specifically because he is a blunt instrument that gets the job done, and finds a personal investment in each and every case.
 
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You hold a gross misunderstanding of Fleming's novels, and if you cite Casino Royale as good because it was "Bond doing his job again" than that speaks to you not really getting it.

Casino Royale, next to On Her Majesty's Secret Service, is perhaps the MOST personal Bond story Fleming wrote. Bond literally falls in love, and the "spy plot" resolves itself 3/4 of a way through the novel, letting the rest meditate on the destruction of a relationship due to the toxic nature of espionage.

I'm a purist. No actor portraying Bond - including the great vaunted Connery -- is greater or more important than Fleming. Craig, whether fans like it or not, represents the closest representation to Bond since OHMMSS. Fleming's Bond was largely humorous, and when he was it was in a cutting way. He was largely bitter most of the time, and took an almost personal insult in every single case he took. He delighted in taking on the Bond villain for the pure principle of "my malehood versus his malehood."

Bond has a sense of duty, but it's actuated by an intense habit to make EVERYTHING personal. Look at his feud with Hugo Drax in Moonraker, if you've read the novel. He goes down their first, yes, to take on Drax but it their battle of wits becomes insanely personal.

In From Russia With Love, Bond does not care about the Lector. But it's not out of duty, it's because the Lektor is a clear ploy and set up by the Russians. Why would he care? In the novel, Bond goes out of a sort of boredom, excited by the prospect of a job after having months of boredom. He then finds himself feeling sorry for Tatiana and things become personal when he falls for her and Karim is murdered. In the film, it sets it up much the same sans the boredom Bond was feeling prior to the job. He heads to Istanbul out of a perverse intellectual curiosity.

If you look at most of Fleming's novels, the constant theme is that the duty of Bond doing his job never stays that way, and that each mission has a much more, unforeseen personal toll on Bond each and everytime. By the time Bond arrives at On Her Majesty's Secret Service, he's tired and eager for real love -- thus why he finds Tracey. And in You Only Live Twice, we get a sense of what's left over after Bond's last attempt to escape the poison of the spy business fails -- he is a suicidal wreck of a man hellbent on revenge.

I'm not saying Bond movies are prefect. I think some people treat the films with more reverie then the source material, which created one of the greatest film icons of all-time. ANd I don't knock the Brocollis too much, because they have helmed a character who has existed for so long and so permeates our culture. I do find the Dalton, Brosnan, and Craig movies more engaging because they begin to challenge Bond's emotional responses to his job, much the same way Fleming did with Bond.

But to sit here and say that because Roger Moore wore a suit and ordered around soldiers for Queen and Country, somehow made him a better Bond and more Bond -- that's just entirely false. Even Fleming, in his novels, has a constant theme of insubordination on the part of Bond. It was never for Queen and Country so much as it was for M -- and the principal Bond always returns to, and is always loyal to, is getting the job done.

Craig perhaps embodies that perfectly in that he is a bulldozer spy that does not stop until he's crushed you and finished with you.

Probably one of the best Bond moments in any medium. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Moonraker as a novel and this moment and the moment where the explosives go off (and the novel starts to be an action story) are fantastic.

However your above post is just a longer version of mine :o
 
Have you ever seen a Bond movie made before Casino Royale? Bond films used to be BIG, exciting, full of fantasy and adventure. Skyfall comes across as a Christopher Nolan wannabe. They went from Bourne wannabe to Nolan wannabe.

I could go into lengthy detail about how much Bourne and Nolan owe to the Bond series but i'll settle for, come back to me when Bourne or Nolan are part of a 50 year series and on their 23rd film :o
 
You hold a gross misunderstanding of Fleming's novels, and if you cite Casino Royale as good because it was "Bond doing his job again" than that speaks to you not really getting it.

Casino Royale, next to On Her Majesty's Secret Service, is perhaps the MOST personal Bond story Fleming wrote. Bond literally falls in love, and the "spy plot" resolves itself 3/4 of a way through the novel, letting the rest meditate on the destruction of a relationship due to the toxic nature of espionage.

I'm a purist. No actor portraying Bond - including the great vaunted Connery -- is greater or more important than Fleming. Craig, whether fans like it or not, represents the closest representation to Bond since OHMMSS. Fleming's Bond was largely humorous, and when he was it was in a cutting way. He was largely bitter most of the time, and took an almost personal insult in every single case he took. He delighted in taking on the Bond villain for the pure principle of "my malehood versus his malehood."

Bond has a sense of duty, but it's actuated by an intense habit to make EVERYTHING personal. Look at his feud with Hugo Drax in Moonraker, if you've read the novel. He goes down their first, yes, to take on Drax but it their battle of wits becomes insanely personal. Hell, even as they play cards at Blades Bond is already personally invested in teaching this man a lesson. In Diamonds are Forever, he at first takes on the job and then largely becomes more and more invested in punishing -- not killing -- Jack Spang and the others for the mere sake of how they disgust him. In Live and Let Die, his emotions and anger from Vesper's betrayal carries over into him taking on SMERSH. When Felix is mauled, it becomes insanely personal. In fact, M picks him SPECIFICALLY because Bond has a personal history with SMERSH. In Dr. No, Strangeways and Quarrel's deaths both motivate Bond to take the job more seriously and more personal. Thunderball, we have much the same disgust at criminality that motivates Bond. Goldfinger is perhaps Fleming's least personal Bond story, but Bond's male rivalry with Goldfinger himself is very clearly personal and goes beyond Queen and Country.

In From Russia With Love, Bond does not care about the Lector. But it's not out of duty, it's because the Lektor is a clear ploy and set up by the Russians. Why would he care? In the novel, Bond goes out of a sort of boredom, excited by the prospect of a job after having months of boredom. He then finds himself feeling sorry for Tatiana and things become personal when he falls for her and Karim is murdered. In the film, it sets it up much the same sans the boredom Bond was feeling prior to the job. He heads to Istanbul out of a perverse intellectual curiosity.

If you look at most of Fleming's novels, the constant theme is that the duty of Bond doing his job never stays that way, and that each mission has a much more, unforeseen personal toll on Bond each and everytime. But whatever the personal toll, Bond must always reign in his personal feelings by the climax in order to get the job done, which inevitably costs him more and more personal angst than had he been able to exercise his personal feelings. This is reinforced twice in QoS when Bond lets Green live so he can get the information for M (which is the boon of the story) as well as when he spares the life of the man who conned Vesper (also allowing them more info). This takes place in the novels too, where Bond is either denied his revenge or personal emotive satisfaction, or puts it aside to get the job done. Just look at the first few Bond novels, where Bond himself never actually gets to directly kill the Bond villain. SMERSH kils Le Chifree, Mr. Big dies faraway in an explosion that while caused by Bond is very impersonal, Hugo Drax dies by his own hand with Bond just focusing on surviving, Jack Spang dies in a train crash that is a errant consequence of his and Bond's fight. In all these cases, Bond is denied personal satisfaction yet gets the job done. By the time Bond arrives at On Her Majesty's Secret Service, he's tired and eager for real love -- thus why he finds Tracey. And in You Only Live Twice, we get a sense of what's left over after Bond's last attempt to escape the poison of the spy business fails -- he is a suicidal wreck of a man hellbent on revenge.

I'm not saying Bond movies are prefect. I think some people treat the films with more reverie then the source material, which created one of the greatest film icons of all-time. ANd I don't knock the Brocollis too much, because they have helmed a character who has existed for so long and so permeates our culture. I do find the Dalton, Brosnan, and Craig movies more engaging because they begin to challenge Bond's emotional responses to his job, much the same way Fleming did with Bond.

But to sit here and say that because Roger Moore wore a suit and ordered around soldiers for Queen and Country, somehow made him a better Bond and more Bond -- that's just entirely false. Even Fleming, in his novels, has a constant theme of insubordination on the part of Bond. It was never for Queen and Country so much as it was for M -- and the principal Bond always returns to, and is always loyal to, is getting the job done.

Craig perhaps embodies that perfectly in that he is a bulldozer spy that does not stop until he's crushed you and finished with you.

That is all fine and good except for one thing....Fleming doesn't matter to film Bond, not even a little bit. When Albert Broccoli and Harry Saltzman bought the rights, they created something entirely new. Book Bond and movie Bond are two VERY different characters. One should have no affect on the other. Trying to force book Bond's qualities on movie Bond is disloyal and unfaithful to the character created by Broccoli and Saltzman, just as trying to make book Bond give silly quips would be disloyal and unfaithful to Fleming's character.

It is for all intents and purposes comparing two different characters. It is like saying that Moriarty should have killed Sherlock Holmes' parents and sent him on a life long crusade against cowardly and superstitious criminals. Trying to make book and film Bond mesh is as silly as trying to mesh Batman and Sherlock Holmes, IMO.
 
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But from what I hear from poster that know their Bond novels, Fleming has delved into Bond's mind and has done more than once personal/vendetta Bond stories.

Almost ALL of Fleming's novels deal with Bond eventually running on revenge to get his job done.
 
JAK®;23295145 said:
But regardless, the way Bond is written in the Fleming novels is from the perspective of an agent. Ian Fleming was an Intelligence Officer, after all.

It's not so much a problem with making it personal as much as it constantly trying to subvert Bond and doing it too heavy-handedly. I actually liked Licence To Kill which was a revenge story, and Goldeneye was decent even though the bad guy was part of Bond's past.

But I miss the mentality of the Connery-era Bond where it was clear that he had a duty and was doing it for his country. Roger Moore nailed it as well. I loved The Spy Who Loved Me because Bond wears his Naval Officer uniform and commands other soldiers at the end.

It's just that every Bond film since 1989 has tried to be all "This time... it's personal" and it's getting old.

Connery and Moore and perhaps the least "Fleming" Bond out there, to be honest. And Connery's Bond never came across as extra dutiful, just like he found spying and drinking and sexing to be so much fun.
 
That is all fine and good except for one thing....Fleming doesn't matter to film Bond, not even a little bit. When Albert Broccoli and Harry Saltzman bought the rights, they created something entirely new. Book Bond and movie Bond are two VERY different characters. One should have no affect on the other. Trying to force book Bond's qualities on movie Bond is disloyal and unfaithful to the character created by Broccoli and Saltzman, just as trying to make book Bond give silly quips would be disloyal and unfaithful to Fleming's character.

And I'm saying -- rights and other issues aside -- I always specifically respect authorial intent. That's just me. Fleming created Bond, and I feel to just discard his intentions and vision is disrespectful.

And I'm knocking the Brocollis. They did waht they did in the area that they had to. But if you even look at the most celebrated Bond films:

From Russia With Love
Goldfinger
On Her Majesty's Secret Service
The Spy Who Loved Me
For Your Eyes Only
Goldeneye
Casino Royale

5 out of the 7 above feature, in some form or the other, a personal story for Bond. Be it that Bond was duped and wants revenge Jack Gittes style, or that Bond's fallen in love, or that Bond's been betrayed -- all contain that element. Also note that ALL of them feature a more down-to-earth, grittier-for-the-time Bond that's jokes are reigned in and arrive more organically in the story.
 
Look, what I'm getting at is this:

People see a 1 and a half teaser trailer and are saying "this looks too dark!" WTF?

Should they have him cracking jokes and making funnies? It'll read like a comedy. Bond is not a comedy.

What the trailer did do is this?

Bond's back.
It looks gorgeous and beautiful and exotic.
And there's going to be a lot of action.

Those are all very Bondish. It did not look like Bourne knock-off, just the one simple shot of the girl shaving his cheek reeked with a sexiness no Bourne movie is interested in delivering. I think people need to calm the hell down and trust what Mendes said that they wanted to bring back more comedy and light-hearted while also pushing Bond to place he hasn't been.
 
The trailer is perfect for Bond.

People have to learn not to be set in their ways about where Bond has been before, making new choices and going new directions is what keeps films like these fresh.

It looks amazing, the plot is coming together to be something wonderful and it looks fresh and entertaining.

What more could one want from a film?
 
Trailer looks cool. Craig looks ten years older with the short hair, but who cares.....

The psych eval scene reminds me of the scene from Blade 3.
 
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