Jared Leto IS The Joker - - - - Part 13

[KillerWolf]

I talked to someone who said its better to compare it to Mask of Phantasm Joker than Heath's Dark Knight Joker. Because of the focus of others it won't have the layers/depth because he's not central to the story.

I'm just hoping Affleck includes him in The Batman film so we can truly see if it can be as good or not.

I can see that, it is certainly more fitting.

My only concern with the character as of now comes from the questioning whether Ayer is a right person to do the Joker or not. He is known for depicting criminals in believable way and I am afraid that his approach might have contextualized the Joker too much as a gangster, a leader of a well-organized criminal group that has profit in mind (a la Azzarello's "Joker", which, while it was an enjoyable read, could have had any random psychopathic crime lord in place of the Joker with no difference) and not as an archetype of a trickster, an individual whose mind escapes understanding. While Joker's gangster element is certainly there in earlier comics, it is hard to return to that after being exposed to some of the more transcending depictions of the character, like that of Grant Morrison, for example.

Ledger gets way too much praise.
Its pretty ridiculous.

He did a great job, one can't take that away from him. But the writing really worked in his favor.

 

[OutOfBoose]

KillerWolf, DeadStroke, agree with your points.

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

Ledger gets way too much praise.
Its pretty ridiculous.

I, on the other hand, think he deserves all the praise he's been given. One of my favorite on screen performances ever.

 

[Joy in J-Land]

I don't see the point in whose performance is better. As long as Leto turns in an excellent performance that fits this movie, why does it matter whether it's better than Ledger's?

 

[DeadStroke]

I can see that, it is certainly more fitting.

My only concern with the character as of now comes from the questioning whether Ayer is a right person to do the Joker or not. He is known for depicting criminals in believable way and I am afraid that his approach might have contextualized the Joker too much as a gangster, a leader of a well-organized criminal group that has profit in mind (a la Azzarello's "Joker", which, while it was an enjoyable read, could have had any random psychopathic crime lord in place of the Joker with no difference) and not as an archetype of a trickster, an individual whose mind escapes understanding. While Joker's gangster element is certainly there in earlier comics, it is hard to return to that after being exposed to some of the more transcending depictions of the character, like that of Grant Morrison, for example.



He did a great job, one can't take that away from him. But the writing really worked in his favor.

Max Landis ‏@Uptomyknees Jun 29
Max Landis Retweeted Graham Shaw
It seems clear to me that @DavidAyerMovies's joker is less of a rogue loon, and more of an actual career criminal.

So yea since they'r friends and he tweeted a joke about the damaged tattoo I think this is the direction they went.

However, the Joker can still be altered in future films. Just because at this point in his life/career he more in criminal mode doesn't mean he can't become trickster, etc in future films. He's a gangster now until he gets bored.

I can't stress the importance of the writing for Heath's Joker. Its what takes it to the next level.

 

[DeadStroke]

Ledger gets way too much praise.
Its pretty ridiculous.

Can you expand on this thought.

I've said before it took me awhile to truly appreciate it. I saw amazing villain, but not amazing Joker when watching it the first few times.

However, I've come along to acknowledge the greatest of this Joker.

What kept it from deserving its current praise in your opinion?

 

[KillerWolf]

Max Landis ‏@Uptomyknees Jun 29
Max Landis Retweeted Graham Shaw
It seems clear to me that @DavidAyerMovies's joker is less of a rogue loon, and more of an actual career criminal.

So yea since they'r friends and he tweeted a joke about the damaged tattoo I think this is the direction they went.

However, the Joker can still be altered in future films. Just because at this point in his life/career he more in criminal mode doesn't mean he can't become trickster, etc in future films. He's a gangster now until he gets bored.

I can't stress the importance of the writing for Heath's Joker. Its what takes it to the next level.

Yeah, that's what I was worried about. Which is why I found it kinda pointless of Leto to go to Grant Morrison for advice, as the way the character was established in this film is the very opposite of Morrison's Joker.

One can always hope... as I already said, I hope he gets bored by it all at some point and simply decides to kill Johnny Frost and the rest of the gang. This is the first Joker that is going to appear in more than just one film, so they can actually depict him as an ever-changing individual this time around.

 

[Manofplastic]

Ledger gets way too much praise.
Its pretty ridiculous.

no, he earned and deserved the praise. that's why he was awarded too, so that's quite the proof there.

Ledger put up a fantastic role. From all the Nolan villains, Ledger gave life to a real life, cunning and dangerous supervillain. Liam Neeson portrayed a great character for Ra's Al Ghul, but to be fair, he was too much of a 'hero' instead of a villain. Batman Begins was a great movie, especially knowing where it came from (read; its circus esque predecessors).

But Ledger set a villain that neither BB nor The Dark Knight Rises was even close to. The script might have helped, but the script wasnt bad for Batman Begins aswell, hell, that was a great script too. You could say TDKR had a less good script and that is true to a degree. To be honest, TDKR only goes down in the end. The start should have gone a bit faster in pace imho, but the end just slacked quality.

As for Ledger's movie character; it's probably true that Ledger put more of a Bond Supervillain. That imho makes it even better. Ledger's Joker was a combination of Bond Villainy and the Joker. It resulted perhaps in a less comicbook accurate joker - more calculated brilliance psychopath instead of a totally deranged psychopath with a cause (stoking batman).

But let's be fair, Jack Nicholson's performance was decent to above good in the circus-act universe - but not really a decent Joker either. More of a clown. To be honest, if i had to lavel Nicholson's performance, its more of a Ronald Mcdonald portrays the Joker instead of the comic book Joker.

I am curious on Leto's joker. But i'm afraid he's rather going to be a mafia-type joker.

But i'm not too surprised to see total changes. Lex Luthor from BvS was more Riddler-like than Luthor-like. I got more of a nerd vibe from Eisenberg than a SuperIntellectual. It is part of the same universe, so we'll see.

I do however feel like this new universe gives us a lot of material to keep up with.

the BvS movie gave me the feeling especially in the ultimate dvd edition,
that Batman putting Luthor in Arkham could pave way for a magnificient movie regarding Joker and Luthor.
Then this SS movie will also have a Batman-Joker substory.

And there will be a Batfleck solo movie, in which i solemny hope the Joker will have a great role. I hope that in this universe, two-face will get a more decent villain presentation instead of the hasty unfinished version in the Nolan universe - though it must be said, his prosthetics were absolutely spot on. He just needed a whole more of villain running time.

 

[terry78]

I think we're just very fickle regarding comic book accuracy in our movies. Sometimes we want it sometimes we don't care. Leto is on par with Deadpool almost as far as looks go, but it depends on Ayer and how he wrote him.

 

[Knightfall]

Ledger gets way too much praise.
Its pretty ridiculous.

I feel that way too, amazing performance don't get me wrong. Just didn't feel exactly like the Joker to me, still a great performance but when you've got people going on about "This person isn't better than Ledger" or "No one could ever beat Ledger" it's kind of annoying. It was a unique take and he went all in, great voice, laugh ect. However, he is not the be all, end all of the character. He felt more like a creepy serial killer Philosophy student than the flamboyant highly energetic Joker(though he himself is also a creepy murderer) that I think most of us are used to. Though the one thing I don't see happening is any live action actor topping his laughs. Those (in some scenes) were pretty damn wicked.

 

[regwec]

Ledger did a wonderful job in portraying a kind of Elseworlds Joker. it was a very powerful performance, admittedly assisted by a fine screenplay, costume design etc. The degree to which his performance is widely feted as unmatchable is no doubt partly a result of his untimely death, however. This is just a feature of the way that we remember those who die young, and I do not begrudge it.

 

[KillerWolf]

Morrison did an immense job. It feels totally mad to the core as the writer has an almost as particular psyche as the Joker, it feels he has been there in a way. I really wish for more artsy and weird superhero movie that could take roots in the more original and bold works comic has offered throughough the years. There is lot of possibilty to explore.

For Ledger's Joker it was also because of the camera movement, some scene he is in the camera become more sensitive, erratic, a bit lost and unstable. That worked wonder. Having a different way to shoot every mad person would be awesome and so in line. I loved Batman Forever, it's weird and adjusting camera angles.

I would like if Leto was in the Batman movie but they give him a totally different look, a new one for every movie, and maybe new tricks and psyche or changes in the actor plays. If it stays solid and true to the character i would really love to see that.

Yeah, same here, problem is that they probably wouldn't be much profitable as blockbusters. I wish they at least do his "Arkham Asylum", though.

There's that as well. It was a result of successful cooperation between the actor, director and the writer.

I'd rather go to some departure from his current look rather than completely different look (besides, you can't make the tats go away), but I'd primarily prefer if he'd get to reinvent himself through the course of the films, as he does in the comics and as its emphasized in "The Clown at Midnight".

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I feel that way too, amazing performance don't get me wrong. Just didn't feel exactly like the Joker to me, still a great performance but when you've got people going on about "This person isn't better than Ledger" or "No one could ever beat Ledger" it's kind of annoying. It was a unique take and he went all in, great voice, laugh ect. However, he is not the be all, end all of the character. He felt more like a creepy serial killer Philosophy student than the flamboyant highly energetic Joker(though he himself is also a creepy murderer) that I think most of us are used to. Though the one thing I don't see happening is any live action actor topping his laughs. Those (in some scenes) were pretty damn wicked.

Got that one spot on.

 

[DeadStroke]

I feel that way too, amazing performance don't get me wrong. Just didn't feel exactly like the Joker to me, still a great performance but when you've got people going on about "This person isn't better than Ledger" or "No one could ever beat Ledger" it's kind of annoying. It was a unique take and he went all in, great voice, laugh ect. However, he is not the be all, end all of the character. He felt more like a creepy serial killer Philosophy student than the flamboyant highly energetic Joker(though he himself is also a creepy murderer) that I think most of us are used to. Though the one thing I don't see happening is any live action actor topping his laughs. Those (in some scenes) were pretty damn wicked.

I thought this at first. But then I realized I was holding onto my perception of the Joker. I thought he was an all time great villain, but a pretty good Joker. Then once I started reading up other works I began to realize what Nolan and Ledger were doing. They totally nailed it. Maybe one of the 5 best performances of the 2000s.

 

[DeadStroke]

Yeah, same here, problem is that they probably wouldn't be much profitable as blockbusters. I wish they at least do his "Arkham Asylum", though.

There's that as well. It was a result of successful cooperation between the actor, director and the writer.

I'd rather go to some departure from his current look rather than completely different look (besides, you can't make the tats go away), but I'd primarily prefer if he'd get to reinvent himself through the course of the films, as he does in the comics and as its emphasized in "The Clown at Midnight".

Well there are rumors of a Joker spinoff movie.

I still say the best idea is to make a movie that documents what the Joker has been up to for 20+ years. Show him at different stages of his life running into Batman and other legendary Gotham criminals. I don't think he put the tats on immediately anyway. So you can see him before the tats and then ultimately how he became this mafioso type. Watch how he built his way up the food chain.

 

[Broseph44]

I don't see the point in whose performance is better. As long as Leto turns in an excellent performance that fits this movie, why does it matter whether it's better than Ledger's?

Agreed. I think some people put too much emphasis or focus on can this person be better than this person. It's all subjective anyway. I love Heath. I also loved Romero and Jack for different reasons. I don't need Leto to be better than Heath. Just be great enough that I enjoy. Works for me.

 

[BlueLanternKal]

Not to take anything away from Ledger, but you also have to keep in mind how his portrayal was framed. This is a Joker in a pseudo-realistic world. Even more so than the current DCF universe. And he was playing the embodiment of the hideous side of anarchy and chaos. That's definitely part of the reason why it captured the audience the way it did. You could easily believe that outside that movie theater there was a psychopath like the Joker and it really gave Ledger's performance that push to the next level.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Ledger's Joker was unforgettable, but he also had the right material. I don't think Letoker will reach those heights in SS but maybe in a solo Batman movie?

 

[DeadStroke]

 

[The Joker]

I, on the other hand, think he deserves all the praise he's been given. One of my favorite on screen performances ever.

Hear hear. If Letoker is even half as good a Joker he'll be doing well.

 

[DeadStroke]

COCOS whats the word on Lejoker in the french cut?

 

[-JKR-]

Heath Ledger deserves all the praise for his take on the Joker. As does Christopher Nolan, for both the role he co-wrote with his brother, and the entire movie (which still is, to me, the best comic book adaptation ever made).

That said, Jack Nicholson deserves the praise he got for his version of the Joker, too. I just enjoy the many different iterations we've got and are getting of these iconic character, as long as they're good.

I loved Tim Burton's take on Batman, and Christopher Nolan's. I surprisingly (because I'm not a big fan of his filmography pre-Man of Steel) liked Zack Snyder's iteration, too, and am looking forward to what Ben Affleck will do with the solo Batman flick.

And I'm definitely looking forward to Suicide Squad (which, to me, is the most promising 'comic book flick' after Deadpool this year), and this new take on the Joker per David Ayer and Jared Leto.

 

[Wildcard]

I, on the other hand, think he deserves all the praise he's been given. One of my favorite on screen performances ever.

Agreed. While I'm expecting Leto to give Heath a run for his money, I'm definitely not going to sit here & act like Ledger's performance is any less amazing than it actually is.

No, he's not overrated & he deserves every bit of praise he gets for the role. The argument could be made that his performance is what catapulted the Joker's popularity to even higher levels than before.

No, as a matter of fact, he did exactly that. How do we know this? He won a ****ing Oscar for the performance & no superhero role since has even had the pleasure of being nominated.

 

[Greens]

Agreed. While I'm expecting Leto to give Heath a run for his money, I'm definitely not going to sit here & act like Ledger's performance is any less amazing than it actually is.

No, he's not overrated & he deserves every bit of praise he gets for the role. The argument could be made that his performance is what catapulted the Joker's popularity to even higher levels than before.

No, as a matter of fact, he did exactly that. How do we know this? He won a ****ing Oscar for the performance & no superhero role since has even had the pleasure of being nominated.

Plus, ask anyone their top five cinematic villains of ALL TIME. Ledger is bound to show up on a lot of lists.

 

[-JKR-]

And rightfully so.

And he DOES fully embody the Joker from the comics.