Jean/Logan: The Evolving Relationship.

[D-scythe]

Undo, are you suggesting that people in a relationship dont lust after other people?

Will and Jada Smith both tell each other about certain celebrities they'd want to have sex with. Just because you're in a relationship dosent mean you find other people attractive.

Just nitpicking here. One, there really wasn't an indication that Jean lusted for Logan. IMO, she found him attractive and probably him chasing after her was flattering at first. Phoenix lusted for Logan. And two, I agree with Undo in that people in a strong relationship (like Scott/Jean) don't really lust for people, at least not openly.

 

[Jan Irisi]

Just nitpicking here. One, there really wasn't an indication that Jean lusted for Logan. IMO, she found him attractive and probably him chasing after her was flattering at first. Phoenix lusted for Logan. And two, I agree with Undo in that people in a strong relationship (like Scott/Jean) don't really lust for people, at least not openly.

I have to believe that Jean is possibly intrigued, flattered and at one point or another the thought of "What if.....?" entered her mind. I have to believe that, it's only human after all, and nobody is that perfect. That doesn't mean anything would have come of it. And yes, Phoenix was the personality/entity who lusted after Logan. I also believe that Jean knew (how could she not?) how deeply Logan felt about her. I believe she had an affection for him, not lust, not deep seeded love, but an affection, a connection, something that existed but would never ever be acted on. Now whether Phoenix acted on those small little tinglings of affection from Jean and amplified them, or it was solely the personality of Phoenix acting on those urges is up for debate, and probably will be debated forever.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

-smiles at this thread- man... this whole Phoenix and Jean personality is so interesting...I agree, its gonna be debated forever and forever.

 

[Kira]

I have to believe that Jean is possibly intrigued, flattered and at one point or another the thought of "What if.....?" entered her mind. I have to believe that, it's only human after all, and nobody is that perfect. That doesn't mean anything would have come of it. And yes, Phoenix was the personality/entity who lusted after Logan. I also believe that Jean knew (how could she not?) how deeply Logan felt about her. I believe she had an affection for him, not lust, not deep seeded love, but an affection, a connection, something that existed but would never ever be acted on. Now whether Phoenix acted on those small little tinglings of affection from Jean and amplified them, or it was solely the personality of Phoenix acting on those urges is up for debate, and probably will be debated forever.

JAN?! Is that... is that really you?! DAMN WOMAN! I haven't seen you like thiiiiiis long time.

Oh, and. *nice* post. I still like to believe that Phoenix was a b***h who knew how much Logan cared about Jean and used it against him. Just to hurt him. Mean girl. And that's why I love her.

 

[Jan Irisi]

JAN?! Is that... is that really you?! DAMN WOMAN! I haven't seen you like thiiiiiis long time.

Oh, and. *nice* post. I still like to believe that Phoenix was a b***h who knew how much Logan cared about Jean and used it against him. Just to hurt him. Mean girl. And that's why I love her.

You're seeing things

It's just your imagination playing tricks with you

I am not here.

 

[D-scythe]

-smiles at this thread- man... this whole Phoenix and Jean personality is so interesting...I agree, its gonna be debated forever and forever.

There's nothing to debate. Jean/Phoenix was clearly insane. Everytime Jean/Phoenix came onto Logan, she was Phoenix, i.e. insane. And you simply cannot use one's insane actions to justify what you think the person felt/behaved/truely believed.

Otherwise, someone please tell me why people can still plead insanity in court.

I have to believe that Jean is possibly intrigued, flattered and at one point or another the thought of "What if.....?" entered her mind. I have to believe that, it's only human after all, and nobody is that perfect. That doesn't mean anything would have come of it. And yes, Phoenix was the personality/entity who lusted after Logan. I also believe that Jean knew (how could she not?) how deeply Logan felt about her. I believe she had an affection for him, not lust, not deep seeded love, but an affection, a connection, something that existed but would never ever be acted on. Now whether Phoenix acted on those small little tinglings of affection from Jean and amplified them, or it was solely the personality of Phoenix acting on those urges is up for debate, and probably will be debated forever.

What affection? I agree, there is something there between Jean/Logan, but never have I seen them do anything that would suggest some kind of affection on Jean's part, like cupping his cheek with her palm, etc. At least nothing that I remember.

 

[Kira]

You're seeing things

It's just your imagination playing tricks with you

I am not here.

Sigh. I knew it.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I would have like to see Jean saying goodbye to Logan before he took off near the end of x1.....maybe give him a hug or something. -shrugs- I posted quick little scene of how that scene would have looked like.

... oh well.

 

[Jan Irisi]

There's nothing to debate. Jean/Phoenix was clearly insane. Everytime Jean/Phoenix came onto Logan, she was Phoenix, i.e. insane. And you simply cannot use one's insane actions to justify what you think the person felt/behaved/truely believed.

Otherwise, someone please tell me why people can still plead insanity in court.

And each insanity defense is hotly debated as well. Each insanity defense is now deeply scrutinized.

Which is why I said what I said above. I personally have no doubt Jean felt something for Wolverine, (affection, intrigue, physical attraction, "what if...?) and I believe that something was something Jean would never act on in a million years, that Jean would quickly dismiss those thoughts immediately. My point was that I wonder if somehow one personality was aware of the other, in this case I wonder if Phoenix was somehow aware of the deeply buried "something" that Jean felt for Logan, and acted on that and amplified it, or if Phoenix just straight up acted on her lust. Speaking for myself, I cannot separate the two, and I believe that Phoenix somehow picked up on those feelings Jean had and acted on them. Those are thoughts and feelings Jean would bury deep inside and never act on or even consider as a possibility to expand on, but Phoenix, being uncontrolled and uninhibited would have no problem expressing those desires.

 

[Jan Irisi]

What affection? I agree, there is something there between Jean/Logan, but never have I seen them do anything that would suggest some kind of affection on Jean's part, like cupping his cheek with her palm, etc. At least nothing that I remember.

There are many forms of affection. Having affection does not translate into a desire to have a physical romp in the sack. One can have affection for ones children, or ones dog, or ones friends. That is the affection I am talking about here. But I also believe that Jean may have, albeit briefly, considered Logan an attractive male, and despite her love for Scott, thoughts may have entered her mind only to be quickly dismissed. She's only human ater all. It happens all the time. It is only when the flattered, intrigued feeling is acted on that it becomes a problem, but women and men often are faced with "What if...." scenarios in their lives. Some are strong enough to dismiss those feelings and go on to live very happy lives with their mate. Unfortunately some are not strong enough. I believe under normal circumstances Jean would have been one of those strong enough to dismiss whatever she may have felt about Logan and went on to live a happy healthy life with Scott, and would have considered Logan nothing but a friend. Under normal circumstances. But the situation here was not ordinary. Far from it.

 

[D-scythe]

And each insanity defense is hotly debated as well. Each insanity defense is now deeply scrutinized.

But, scrutinized in such a manner to doubt if one is truly insane, or scrutinized in a way to determine that the insane was in fact acting out their desires? That the insane part of the person was acting in accordance with the sane person? It's obviously the former - often, the problem is determining whether the person truly was insane, not whether their actions while insane were...well, sane. True, insanity cases are hotly debated, but often the debate centres around whether the subject was truly insane or not at the time the crime was carried out.

Jean was clearly insane in X3. And when her "Phoenix" personality took over, Jean cannot be held accountable for any actions Phoenix have done. True, they may not be separate, but there is no indication of any mental/emotional/intellectual link between the two personas, Jean and Phoenix, either.

Which is why I said what I said above. I personally have no doubt Jean felt something for Wolverine, (affection, intrigue, physical attraction, "what if...?) and I believe that something was something Jean would never act on in a million years, that Jean would quickly dismiss those thoughts immediately. My point was that I wonder if somehow one personality was aware of the other, in this case I wonder if Phoenix was somehow aware of the deeply buried "something" that Jean felt for Logan, and acted on that and amplified it, or if Phoenix just straight up acted on her lust. Speaking for myself, I cannot separate the two, and I believe that Phoenix somehow picked up on those feelings Jean had and acted on them. Those are thoughts and feelings Jean would bury deep inside and never act on or even consider as a possibility to expand on, but Phoenix, being uncontrolled and uninhibited would have no problem expressing those desires.

Well, as I said before, there is something between Jean/Logan, but as of yet, it doesn't seem to be anything romantic. Which you acknowledged as a possibility as well. It may be romantic (and given Logan's exposure in all 3 films, it's certainly possible), but it never really had manifested on Jean's part.

 

[javon]

It's kind of weird how in the x-movies they never showed Jean caring for Cyclops like she does Wolverine. Everytime she was around Wolverine they always had an intiment moment but with the scenes with cyclops it was just quick.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

in one scene from X2 when she's inside the base along with storm and them, everything around her start to shake and she stops moving and pauses, "logan... Logan where are you?" ...

When she's inside the jet near the end and Logan runs inside, she stops him by feeling his arm. "You okay?" and he says... "I am now."

so she cares about him...

But anyway, Jean does have her a moments with Scott, near the end... look at my avvy.

 

[javon]

Yeah, once.

 

[undomiel]

Undo, are you suggesting that people in a relationship dont lust after other people?

Will and Jada Smith both tell each other about certain celebrities they'd want to have sex with. Just because you're in a relationship dosent mean you find other people attractive.

Great question, Bat. I know it happens; that doesn't make it right. (Yes, I fully expect to get slammed for saying that -- it's okay.) Just because many people do something it doesn't mean it's right or good. Ideally, no one would lust after anyone other than their own mate. Who would be pleased to know their lover is lusting after someone else? It is a sad testimony to the corruption of mankind that we accept, even normalize such behavior. And why do we do that? To try to justify our own actions, I suspect, rather than doing the hard thing and admitting we are wrong.

Now go ahead -- eat me up alive!lol

 

[undomiel]

Um, what? Let's go with your reasoning here (which is not mine, btw) - let's say Jean is insane. Yes, being insane is part of being Jean, but can you really determine what Jean wants/feels by her insane actions?

Your saying that yes, being insane is a part of Jean, but how does that prove she loves Logan just because her other "half" lusts deeply for him? Even though insanity is a part of the person, you can't use it to define the person's wants/needs/loves/etc. based on their insane actions.

For example, take a normal guy, he snaps/gets knocked off his knocker and kills someone. Why do you think he can plead insanity in a court to avoid the murder charge? It's because everyone recognizes that the person (or at least a part of the person) is insane, but he cannot be judged by his actions when he is insane. Get it?

If someone says Jean does love Logan because Phoenix lusted for him, than the logical extension of that rationale would be that NOBODY can plead insanity.

And really, I honestly do expect Logan/Jean to be more popular at this point. X1 and X2 set that up, and X3 just solidified it.

No, -- lol -- I'm not saying Jean is insane. Actually, I've decided to take a step way back because I've realized I'm not exactly sure what's going on with Jean or who she is. I read some source material that suggested the real Jean Grey was off in a coma somewhere while the Phoenix force impersonated her, assuming not only her physical form but all her memories and personality traits as well. If this is the case, then Jean in the movie wasn't the real Jean at all, and we can still have hope that the real Jean is alive somewhere, waiting to be rescued.

About "insanity"...well, you haven't answered my first question, which is: What is insanity? You must be able to define a thing before you go on talking about its effects and implications. Your argument above regarding the case of an "insane" man who murders someone is based upon your presuppositions about insanity -- in other words, you have already drawn conclusions in your mind about the nature of insanity which I'm going to argue will be very difficult to substantiate. You are, perhaps, taking too much for granted. And yes, I "get it", in terms of understanding that our system of justice does allow for an insanity plea, but what does that demonstrate? It may show that the general population of our society accepts that there is such a thing, but that is not proof of the thing itself, nor does it mean that such laws will always be properly applied. It simply begs the question of a moral standard, which brings us back (again) to philosophy.

But it raises some great issues...like: What is true? What is right? How can we know what is right if we do not know what is true? (Wow... all of this from a discussion about X-Men!)

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

...ah crap...if that was not the real Jean...but Phoenix herself... -dives into the lake in search for the real Jean Grey-

 

[D-scythe]

No, -- lol -- I'm not saying Jean is insane. Actually, I've decided to take a step way back because I've realized I'm not exactly sure what's going on with Jean or who she is. I read some source material that suggested the real Jean Grey was off in a coma somewhere while the Phoenix force impersonated her, assuming not only her physical form but all her memories and personality traits as well. If this is the case, then Jean in the movie wasn't the real Jean at all, and we can still have hope that the real Jean is alive somewhere, waiting to be rescued.

Doubt it. Wouldn't make sense to have such a literal adaptation of the comic to the movie screen. Might as well include the Shi'ar while we're at it.

About "insanity"...well, you haven't answered my first question, which is: What is insanity? You must be able to define a thing before you go on talking about its effects and implications.

Do I look like a psychologist/some doctor? Obviously, I'm not going to give you a definition of insanity that you cannot google the internet yourself.

So no, I don't have to define anything before I talk about it, because NONE of us have the credentials to define insanity in the first place. Furthermore, even those with credentials cannot always agree on what they think insanity is, thus the issue being hotly debated in some circles. So asking for a definition of insanity among people who have no previous professional, medical history with insanity is utterly pointless.

If the experts cannot always agree, what makes you think that we will even scratch the surface of the issue?

I think you're just reaching now.

Your argument above regarding the case of an "insane" man who murders someone is based upon your presuppositions about insanity -- in other words, you have already drawn conclusions in your mind about the nature of insanity which I'm going to argue will be very difficult to substantiate. You are, perhaps, taking too much for granted. And yes, I "get it", in terms of understanding that our system of justice does allow for an insanity plea, but what does that demonstrate? It may show that the general population of our society accepts that there is such a thing, but that is not proof of the thing itself, nor does it mean that such laws will always be properly applied. It simply begs the question of a moral standard, which brings us back (again) to philosophy.

First, I'm not taking anything for granted. I may not have the credentials to define insanity, but what Jean is experiencing in X3 probably is insanity. There are split personalities, and each personality is apparently not aware of what the other is doing. Taking into account her behaviour, Jean goes from respected doctor and (from what we've seen) loving fiance, and progresses into a mass killer, murdering numerous people including her fiance. This jump into a mass killer was triggered with the manifestation of her other personality.

So no, I cannot define it. But I recognize her symptoms describing a person who obviously is not entirely sane. Whether she is diagnosed with any of the number of multiple personality disorders or schizophrenia or whatever, is irrelevent to the conversation. Actually, all other things are irrelevent - there's no need looking deeper than we have to, or else we'll just be chasing our tails around and around in circles and never catch it.

Simply taking into account her symptoms, AFAIK she is insane. Sane people don't have multiple personalities, and don't make the jump from saving lives as a doctor and killing lives as a mass murderer in a day. I don't see how I'm taking anything for granted with that statement.

But it raises some great issues...like: What is true? What is right? How can we know what is right if we do not know what is true? (Wow... all of this from a discussion about X-Men!)

Again, I think you're looking far deeper into this then is necessary.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

this is giving me a headache... -sighs- ... I like to believe that Jean and Phoenix are one...but if the real jean is somewhere still in the lake... I dunno what to believe...

 

[undomiel]

this is giving me a headache... -sighs- ... I like to believe that Jean and Phoenix are one...but if the real jean is somewhere still in the lake... I dunno what to believe...

But, Darkness -- wouldn't you be happy to know that "good Jean" is still alive somewhere?

 

[undomiel]

Doubt it. Wouldn't make sense to have such a literal adaptation of the comic to the movie screen. Might as well include the Shi'ar while we're at it.



Do I look like a psychologist/some doctor? Obviously, I'm not going to give you a definition of insanity that you cannot google the internet yourself.

So no, I don't have to define anything before I talk about it, because NONE of us have the credentials to define insanity in the first place. Furthermore, even those with credentials cannot always agree on what they think insanity is, thus the issue being hotly debated in some circles. So asking for a definition of insanity among people who have no previous professional, medical history with insanity is utterly pointless.

If the experts cannot always agree, what makes you think that we will even scratch the surface of the issue?

I think you're just reaching now.



First, I'm not taking anything for granted. I may not have the credentials to define insanity, but what Jean is experiencing in X3 probably is insanity. There are split personalities, and each personality is apparently not aware of what the other is doing. Taking into account her behaviour, Jean goes from respected doctor and (from what we've seen) loving fiance, and progresses into a mass killer, murdering numerous people including her fiance. This jump into a mass killer was triggered with the manifestation of her other personality.

So no, I cannot define it. But I recognize her symptoms describing a person who obviously is not entirely sane. Whether she is diagnosed with any of the number of multiple personality disorders or schizophrenia or whatever, is irrelevent to the conversation. Actually, all other things are irrelevent - there's no need looking deeper than we have to, or else we'll just be chasing our tails around and around in circles and never catch it.

Simply taking into account her symptoms, AFAIK she is insane. Sane people don't have multiple personalities, and don't make the jump from saving lives as a doctor and killing lives as a mass murderer in a day. I don't see how I'm taking anything for granted with that statement.



Again, I think you're looking far deeper into this then is necessary.

But I'm not interested in a "googled" definition -- I wanted to know how exactly you process "insanity" since you keep on insisting that's what was up with Jean.

And when you say the experts can't even agree on a definition of insanity, you're completely supporting my point -- that no one really knows what it is for sure. Yet you say you know she's insane because you recognize the symptoms. But tell me, how can you recognize the symptoms of a problem you can't define? Can I recognize the symptoms of typhoid or pneumonia if I don't know what those diseases are? No, I can't. All I'm saying is that you've blindly adopted a medical model and applied it to a comic book character in a fantasy world. The story writers could have any number of fantastical ways of explaining what was going on with Jean -- all I'm saying is we don't know for sure. If you choose to believe she's insane, then that's what you believe, but don't act like we should all be instantly convinced. If the Phoenix force impersonated her, then we have another plausible explanation.

As far as looking too deep into things -- well, I was just pointing out the natural line of questioning that your statements are raising. If you're uncomfortable thinking that deeply, that's fine. I happen to think it's interesting, and that you've raised good issues that are worth exploring, and that must be explored if you are going to keep making the kinds of statements you've been making.

 

[D-scythe]

But I'm not interested in a "googled" definition -- I wanted to know how exactly you process "insanity" since you keep on insisting that's what was up with Jean.

I can give you the DSM-IV definition of insanity. It wouldn't matter.

And when you say the experts can't even agree on a definition of insanity, you're completely supporting my point -- that no one really knows what it is for sure. Yet you say you know she's insane because you recognize the symptoms. But tell me, how can you recognize the symptoms of a problem you can't define?

I said Jean was probably insane.

Can I recognize the symptoms of typhoid or pneumonia if I don't know what those diseases are? No, I can't. All I'm saying is that you've blindly adopted a medical model and applied it to a comic book character in a fantasy world.

Um, you just basically stated the reason why psychology is considered so much different from other medical fields. It's not like math or a viral infection - there's no answer to the problem. For AIDS, we know the HIV virus causes it. We know 6 times 6 is 36.

That being said about psychology, the experts may not always agree 100% on what is insanity, but about 60% of them do agree with each other when performing a DX based on DSM-IV.

The story writers could have any number of fantastical ways of explaining what was going on with Jean -- all I'm saying is we don't know for sure. If you choose to believe she's insane, then that's what you believe, but don't act like we should all be instantly convinced. If the Phoenix force impersonated her, then we have another plausible explanation.

Um, the movie clearly suggested that the Phoenix force was part of Jean's psyche, and was not an external force "taking control" of Jean. In any case, the movie never really elaborated on this aspect of Jean's story anyway, so it's up to us to interpret it until an official source says otherwise.

As far as looking too deep into things -- well, I was just pointing out the natural line of questioning that your statements are raising. If you're uncomfortable thinking that deeply, that's fine. I happen to think it's interesting, and that you've raised good issues that are worth exploring, and that must be explored if you are going to keep making the kinds of statements you've been making.

It's not that I'm uncomfortable thinking deeply, it's just that we can be arguing in circles for a thousand pages and still be back to where we are right now. Sure, it would be an interesting discussion, but I simply just don't see the point of it. IMO, Jean is probably insane, but there's a possibility she might not be because X3 never explored this plot more.

 

[undomiel]

I can give you the DSM-IV definition of insanity. It wouldn't matter.

What do you mean, "It wouldn't matter?" I'm asking for your understanding, not the "experts".

Um, you just basically stated the reason why psychology is considered so much different from other medical fields. It's not like math or a viral infection - there's no answer to the problem. For AIDS, we know the HIV virus causes it. We know 6 times 6 is 36.

That being said about psychology, the experts may not always agree 100% on what is insanity, but about 60% of them do agree with each other when performing a DX based on DSM-IV.

Exactly. Being that it is such a slippery field, we cannot draw such hard and fast conclusions about who's insane, what should be done about it, etc. It's scary to hear someone say something like "Oh, he snapped, so when he killed that person, it wasn't really his fault. He was insane (or "temporarily insane"). He can't be held responsible." That kind of thinking has huge implications (such as the justification of murder), so we'd better know what we're talking about, or at least know what we don't know.

Um, the movie clearly suggested that the Phoenix force was part of Jean's psyche, and was not an external force "taking control" of Jean. In any case, the movie never really elaborated on this aspect of Jean's story anyway, so it's up to us to interpret it until an official source says otherwise.

You assumed that, but I'm not saying it couldn't be true. But I agree with you that we are forced to interpret until a clear explanation is given. And who knows when that will be?

It's not that I'm uncomfortable thinking deeply, it's just that we can be arguing in circles for a thousand pages and still be back to where we are right now. Sure, it would be an interesting discussion, but I simply just don't see the point of it. IMO, Jean is probably insane, but there's a possibility she might not be because X3 never explored this plot more.

But we're kind of doing that already, know what I mean? The point of it is debate.

 

[D-scythe]

What do you mean, "It wouldn't matter?" I'm asking for your understanding, not the "experts".

Well, I don't really have a definition of insanity, not because I don't know what it is, or whatever, but basically because I don't like the ideas of giving someone the "label" of insanity myself. I prefer to have someone with the credentials declare someone is insane before I do the same.

That being said, I do believe that Jean was probably insane (given what little information is present in X3).

Firstly, the Phoenix doesn't seem to be an external force of some-type controlling Jean.

Secondly, Jean clearly manifests two distinct personalities in X3, neither of which are apparently aware of the other's actions. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any link between the two personalities either, besides sharing the same body - although Phoenix is in control of Jean's body most of the time, there is no indication that "Phoenix" overlaps with "good Jean". In fact, there is no indication that "Jean" knows "Phoenix" exists until she learns of her darker half from other people.

Thirdly, "good Jean" obviously knew what "Phoenix" was doing was wrong, but wasn't able to stop "Phoenix" herself. That's why she begs Logan to kill her. Through Logan (or telepathy), she knows that Phoenix killed Scott and Xavier and a bunch of other people, but since she is not aware of "Phoenix" herself except through other people, she cannot control herself except when "Jean" is dominant. Not exactly the behaviour of a sane person, who's always aware of one's actions.

I could go on, but I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[CHObiWan]

I think the wolvie/jean relationship is like brother/sister love. Scott/Jean is like husband wife love.
But thats just what I think.
But, Im for Scott and Jean no matter what