Comics Joe Q is an idiot

[farmernudie]

Wow...after reading his responses, I have to say that the title of this thread does kind of nail how I feel about the whole thing.

Yeh, I am not one to call names...nor was i excited by this thread title...some people may not actually ever READ it if they are a fan of JQ's. So a different thread title originally may have encouraged a more open thread...like "JQ'S interview"...and let people come up with their own conclusion after reading his quotes.

I'd rather debate the LOGIC then call JQ names....and JQ states "there is nothing to say Pete can't DATE MJ" after One More Day.

Re-dating your wife is plain dippy and a poor idea that is scraping the bottom of the barrel. And even more so, logically, after establishing that marriage is "inappropriate" and we can't go there, it is also POINTLESS to date your wife (or ANYONE)....since JQ/Marvel obviously isn't going to allow Pete to MARRY HIS WIFE a 2nd time!!!

And his LOGIC that no one will notice this if "Marvel doesn't mention it".....(argh)....I could roll on the floor laughing at that if it wasn't so insulting and clueless.

So, everyone please help KEEP THIS SECRET if MJ is mindwiped and single fans start buying single spidey.

DO NOT ENCOURAGE ANY NEW "SINGLE" FANS to read any BACK ISSUES or the SECRET IS OUT!

Do not mention it, Marvel won't. JQ has spoken!!

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Actually, Joe Q isn't an idiot...he's something even dumber than that.

He's a very stupid little boy disguised as a man. He's a moron. If he had any less brain power, he would be considered legally dead. If you knock on his head, you'll hear an echo.

Joey, are you dense? Are you ******ED or something? Do you know who the hell we are? We're the goddamn fans!

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

My guess is, if this actually happens, then...well...we're not going to buy your s**t. Hell, I'd not buy Marvel altogether if it weren't for Moon Knight and the fact that the only reason Marvel is actually making money is because of the mediocre movies. But I'm sure that if all the fans stopped buying this s**t, then maybe, just maybe, the higher-ups will realize what's happened and Joey Q will be kicked out on his huge, bulbous ass to the curb.

 

[farmernudie]

Look...

I "kinda" understand what JQ is saying. He wants to make Spidey and everything in his universe "timeless". As in Charlie Brown and Peanuts as he states.

However, as I've stated before, comparing a 4 panel gag strip (what a "Comic" as in ha-ha-Strip is) to an ongoing story (Comic BOOKS) is not comparing apples to apples. There is continuity in a comic book, a history. While there is "some" in a STRIP, sometimes, it is in NO way to the same degree of a comicBOOK. All that matters in Peanuts is that Lucy always pulls the ball out of the way of Charlie Brown. They always wear the same clothes and no one cares. No one is paying attention to what time/season Charlie Brown gets his kite stuck in the tree & if it makes sense to the next days strip about looking for Valentines in his mailbox.

So, in some warped way, JQ is saying...I've tried to kill her, people complained...but i do NOT like the marriage. So this is round 2 of getting rid of MJ, and now we're just gonna MINDWIPE her or mystically change things...so the characters don't know any different, nor will new fans. (ha)

In other interviews...he has stated things like..."this solution of One More Day will hopefully satisfy old time fans too, who like the status quo of MJ being around, kind of thing"

So, if he mindwipes the world, and MJ tragically also forgets she is married, and so does Pete....technically JQ feels he is satifying us because she'll be around still and WE should be happy he SAVED her.

JQ is also saying there is nothing to say that they theoretically can't date at some point.

However, in this scenario....Pete would be dating his wife, but JQ states MArvel won't ever mention THEIR HISTORY or any spidey history that gets abolished in a mindwipe or whatever. (been re-reading spidey around #500 and I'm pretty sure it is gonna involve Dr. Strange...)

So, then, we'll be back to the "timeless Spidey",..."Single Spidey" who doesn't remember being married. Not unlike a Barbie Doll, We'll have the new "Single Spidey" who does not change, so that single people and kids everywhere can suddenly come out in support of this hero. (And is Marvel going to advertise this new event to make it work?) What is Spidey..?..some sort of cereal like Lucky Charms that you add a new shape and it'll be a real hoot & boost the sales?

But seeing Pete date others when we KNOW he is married is just gonna make him look like a louse. JQ (stated) he doesn't want to age Pete thru divorce, so he is gonna go an even dorkier route and just make Pete an ADULTERER who can't remember his vows to MJ. (and establish a no-marriage clause for Pete) Thus, any future dating is made pointless.

The reader won't even care about Pete dating...won't wonder..WILL THEY (Pete and "SUSIE-Q") STAY TOGETHER?...of course not!! It will no longer have any emotional impact. Unless the next editor down the road says marriage is OK again...but then is Pete gonna go all mormon and have many wives?? Seriously, (lets open that can of worms)-what if they DID introduce some new girl character for him to date during his "i can't remember I'm married period". What if, down the road, fans DO like this new gal A LOT....and a new editor comes in, one who allows PROGRESSION again....now there is a bigger mess...because Peter is ALREADY married....to MJ....whether they "remember" it or not. Will he DOUBLE MARRY..??!!!

Also, it would be redundant to say the least, having MJ hanging around like the little red-haired girl for Pete to date when he wants, just to keep her as a "character". What would be her PURPOSE??? Not only have we already read about Pete dating MJ, but it is the dumbest idea I've ever heard to write stories about a married man dating his wife. Will she show up periodically as a nod to fans, and pull the football out from under Pete occasionally too?? JQ will be like..."SEE, THERE SHE IS!"

Do Marvel writers honestly feel they can't handle writing about marriage but could better write a character who is dating his wife and can't even remember???
Also, you're telling me...that not a single part of Pete or MJ's mind will recall all their history and love for each other when they're around each other? He admits Marvel won't "mention anything"...so this flat out admits that MJ/Pete won't be WRITTEN LOGICALLY but according to their agenda. (ahem>baby-what baby-ahem<)

This scenario is as illogical as it is hilarious and a total joke.

Maybe JQ is joking, and One More Day will start off a happy lifetime of great marriage. Doubt it tho.

If he goes this cheesy route,...he is making a royal sized mess. And mistake.

If not, in a year we'll be mindwiping the mindwiped!!~Making sure the Married Couple doesn't "recall" dating other people & the emotional consequences.

Spidey is not Charlie Brown. Nor is he Peter Pan. He is Peter Parker. JQ needs to stop playing make-believe, pretending no one has grown up.

Sorry so long, but i think i've made my point.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Dan Slott please come and save their souls!

 

[kguillou]

They might be setting Peter up for dating the black cat again. I was reading past issues of sensational and they hint that black cat still has feelings for peter. maybe after they finish MJ off, they'll play the whole " Felicia is Peter's true love" card and have him go back to her. Even though felicia's hotter than MJ, this would be a catastrophe. BUT if Peter HAS to date someone when (or if) his marriage ends, i would like it to be black cat.

 

[TheVileOne]

Isn't the whole point though that Mary Jane is his true love?

So I mean, if he were to date or marry someone else even if he was mindwiped, wouldn't it mentally do something to him subconsciously make him feel guilty or as if something was totally wrong?

The other thing, do fans really want this? Do fans hate the marriage that much?

And wouldn't you guys agree if something like that scenario happened that people would reject it?

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Yup... The house of Ideas is dead... I think spidey should move his ass to DC... Maybe there he'll get more love...

 

[Themanofbat]

Yup... The house of Ideas is dead... I think spidey should move his ass to DC... Maybe there he'll get more love...

While I may not approve of some of Marvel's move over the last few years, we're just speculating on how "One More Day" will play out... it could be good.

And if Spidey ever moved to DC, then we'd see his origins rebooted every 8 to 12 years (as well as all their other characters), and when enough time goes by... oh, say about 20 years, they can bring back old Spidey stories because they were good 20 years ago...

 

[farmernudie]

While we may be slightly speculating,.....we're going by what Joey Q is ACTUALLY saying.

Maybe One More Day WILL be a JMS curtain call depicting what a GREAT thing the marriage really is.

Doubt it........but i hope.

 

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

While I may not approve of some of Marvel's move over the last few years, we're just speculating on how "One More Day" will play out... it could be good.

And if Spidey ever moved to DC, then we'd see his origins rebooted every 8 to 12 years (as well as all their other characters), and when enough time goes by... oh, say about 20 years, they can bring back old Spidey stories because they were good 20 years ago...

Isn't that What Marvel's been doing over the last decade... trying to give spidey bad reboots and retconning his past into oblivion?

 

[Norman Osborn]

I'm not one to defend Joe Q (and I'm not going to), but hasn't this discussion gone totally off the rails? The biggest gripe in this whole thread is the speculation that Marvel would have Peter and MJ, a married couple, dating? Where does he say that?...did I miss something?...

"WE HAVE CONSIDERED THIS OF COURSE. NOW IMAGINE THEY GET DIVORCED AND YOU NEVER MENTION IT AGAIN. THEN IMAGINE IF SOMEDAY SHE COMES BACK INTO HIS LIFE AND THEY START TO DATE AND WE NEVER EVER MENTION THE DIVORCE. YEARS LATER THEY ARE STILL DATING, WE HAVE NEW READERS AND WE NEVER EVER MENTION DIVORCE."

How can someone take that as meaning "they hope we Marvel comic readers will forget they're married and they'll start dating each other even though they're married?....did I miss a paragraph?

From what I read I see Marvel as saying, we'll divorce them and never bring it up again hence people will forget he's divorced (and from Marvel's viewpoint forget they were ever married...stupid yes, but far from what's being speculated here)

 

[Themanofbat]

Isn't that What Marvel's been doing over the last decade... trying to give spidey bad reboots and retconning his past into oblivion?

The only bad reboot as far as I'm concerned was the Mackie/Byrne era... and even that wasn't a reboot as the stories flowed from the Clone Saga and a sense of continuity was still there. They just tried to bring Peter back to what he was in the 70's... a Peter Parker that worked in the 70's, but failed miserably in the late 90's because his character had progressed.

As far as DC goes, I was reading comics when Crisis on Infinite Earths came out in 1985 and I thought it was a good idea because all the the DC comics I had read in the previous 12 years or so was confusing with the idea of "multiple earths"... I liked Marvel's books better because they had one streamlined continuity on one Earth. Of course, as we all know, CoIE caused some problems with certain characters that were hard to fix, so they came up with other "starting over" events, like "Zero Hour", and now we have Infinite Crisis where the multiple earths idea has resurfaced 20 years later, which I think is a bad idea, but I'm in the minority because the people reading the DC books now weren't reading them 20-25 years ago. And from what I understand, some of their iconic heroes like Superman & Wonder Woman no longuer have a "definative" origin...



I'm sorry, but while I do read some DC comics, I'll stick with Marvel and it's bold attempts to at least keep the main stories flowing within one universe.

 

[farmernudie]

(and from Marvel's viewpoint forget they were ever married...stupid yes, but far from what's being speculated here)

JQ has been quoted on various sites, magazines, in the press, on the link to this site and many other places that i've read. What I've speculated here comes from the entire CONTEXT of this thread and everything he's said!

When you PIECE all his quotes together into a big picture, like a puzzle....the picture i am GETTING (IMO) is that a mindwipe or mystical timeline mindwipe sorta thing will take place, not only to take care of the "marriage controversy" (a JQ word not from this thread) but other things they want to get rid of. And while he speaks abut divorce in this thread link, he has also constantly eleswhere stated that this would only AGE Peter worse. JQ also states elsewhere he wants to unage Pete. Thus, divorce isn't an option. He has also elsewhere mentioned maintaining some sort of "status quo" of things (mj being around) to help satisfy "long time fans". And a "timeless feel" where things don't change, like in Charlie Brown.

So, i think it is fair to say, that people's "specualtion" here is VERY fair, and comes from the sum of all the parts (quotes) leading up to now. All from JQ. It is too bad every quote of his couldn't be compiled together in one link to help better connect his thoughts so fans could collect them ALL.

If i had the time and ability and desire, I'd do a thread with ALL JQ Spidey quotes....everyone i've READ...so people could read this thread AND EVERYOTHER JQ statement so it'd be easier for everyone to put 2+2 together.

Like I've said, Maybe he is gonna cement the marriage. That'd be great. The things he is constantly saying in NO WAY ADD UP to that however. I can only go by what he has been saying to make my specualtion.

IF divorce isn't an option, and MJ doesn't get killed (again,because it didn't work the first time with the backlash), and JQ doesn't want them "married".....where does that mathamatically lead you??

So...still following this equation of logic, if MJ is alive and mindwiped...(a mindwiped married lady)....WHAT WOULD BE HER PURPOSE IN THE COMIC....??? Remember, JQ wants it to feel more "timeless" like Charlie Brown strips. Down the road, you think they'll date?? (bring back that classic 70's feel/movie feel) Or do you think he'll keep her in the background just for Pete to unemotionally call up and say "hi" to here and there? They'd have to USE her SOMEHOW. What would her PURPOSE be in this scenario if mindwiping the "married couple" of PEte and MJ happens??

Again...it IS speculation, I'll give you that, but it is from the mouth of JQ over and over, all over. It's all out there. Again...MAYBE he WILL do the OPPOSITE of what he has said on this over and over. Maybe he says a lot of bunk just to irritate his (Spidey) fans, his bread and butter.

 

[Norman Osborn]

JQ has been quoted on various sites, magazines, in the press, on the link to this site and many other places that i've read. What I've speculated here comes from the entire CONTEXT of this thread and everything he's said!

When you PIECE all his quotes together into a big picture, like a puzzle....the picture i am GETTING (IMO) is that a mindwipe or mystical timeline mindwipe sorta thing will take place, not only to take care of the "marriage controversy" (a JQ word not from this thread) but other things they want to get rid of. And while he speaks abut divorce in this thread link, he has also constantly eleswhere stated that this would only AGE Peter worse. JQ also states elsewhere he wants to unage Pete. Thus, divorce isn't an option. He has also elsewhere mentioned maintaining some sort of "status quo" of things (mj being around) to help satisfy "long time fans". And a "timeless feel" where things don't change, like in Charlie Brown.

So, i think it is fair to say, that people's "specualtion" here is VERY fair, and comes from the sum of all the parts (quotes) leading up to now. All from JQ. It is too bad every quote of his couldn't be compiled together in one link to help better connect his thoughts so fans could collect them ALL.

If i had the time and ability and desire, I'd do a thread with ALL JQ Spidey quotes....everyone i've READ...so people could read this thread AND EVERYOTHER JQ statement so it'd be easier for everyone to put 2+2 together.

Like I've said, Maybe he is gonna cement the marriage. That'd be great. The things he is constantly saying in NO WAY ADD UP to that however. I can only go by what he has been saying to make my specualtion.

IF divorce isn't an option, and MJ doesn't get killed (again,because it didn't work the first time with the backlash), and JQ doesn't want them "married".....where does that mathamatically lead you??

So...still following this equation of logic, if MJ is alive and mindwiped...(a mindwiped married lady)....WHAT WOULD BE HER PURPOSE IN THE COMIC....??? Remember, JQ wants it to feel more "timeless" like Charlie Brown strips. Down the road, you think they'll date?? (bring back that classic 70's feel/movie feel) Or do you think he'll keep her in the background just for Pete to unemotionally call up and say "hi" to here and there? They'd have to USE her SOMEHOW. What would her PURPOSE be in this scenario if mindwiping the "married couple" of PEte and MJ happens??

Again...it IS speculation, I'll give you that, but it is from the mouth of JQ over and over, all over. It's all out there. Again...MAYBE he WILL do the OPPOSITE of what he has said on this over and over. Maybe he says a lot of bunk just to irritate his (Spidey) fans, his bread and butter.

Fair enough, I simply thought the speculation was driven by this specific article and nothing else......

 

[Themanofbat]

I think that the mindwipe will be the option, having MJ forget about Peter being Spdier-Man, and possibly even her feelings towards Pete (beyond the friendship sense), and after the fact, Peter will then stay away from his one true love because he doesn't want any more harm to befall his loved ones. So in typical Peter Parker grandiose nobility, he will stay away from her even though he loves her more than anything, and once again, the Spectre of Spider-Man will come between Peter Parker and the woman he loves.

I made this prediction almost a year ago when Civil War began, and it's been playing itself out as I thought... thus far.

 

[Norman Osborn]

I think that the mindwipe will be the option, having MJ forget about Peter being Spdier-Man, and possibly even her feelings towards Pete (beyond the friendship sense), and after the fact, Peter will then stay away from his one true love because he doesn't want any more harm to befall his loved ones. So in typical Peter Parker grandiose nobility, he will stay away from her even though he loves her more than anything, and once again, the Spectre of Spider-Man will come between Peter Parker and the woman he loves.

I made this prediction almost a year ago when Civil War began, and it's been playing itself out as I thought... thus far.

Wouldn't this mindwipe render The Initiative project irrelevant?...or are we just going to selectively wipe the world's knowledge of Spidey's identity but keep the SHRA in effect....after the mindwipe people will think Spidey is a rogue who hasn't registered but can be outted by Iron Man?.....it's pretty foggy to me how this will work?

 

[Themanofbat]

Wouldn't this mindwipe render The Initiative project irrelevant?...or are we just going to selectively wipe the world's knowledge of Spidey's identity but keep the SHRA in effect....after the mindwipe people will think Spidey is a rogue who hasn't registered but can be outted by Iron Man?.....it's pretty foggy to me how this will work?

I think it would be a world wide effect, similarly to what happened to Wally West a couple of years ago, where all traces of his identity was wiped clean (even himself).

And while everybody's specualting that Dr.Strange will do this, let's not forget that Loki owes Spider-Man a favour, and he is powerful enough to do that (he is the god of lies and mischief).

And once the world forgets who Spider-Man is, he will really be a loner as he was always seen to be in the Marvel Universe... and with the SHRA in effect, it will make him seemingly even more untrustworthy from his fellow heroes (as he always was before), even though they will remember fighting alongside of him... it will add an uneasiness to any "team-ups".

 

[Norman Osborn]

I think it would be a world wide effect, similarly to what happened to Wally West a couple of years ago, where all traces of his identity was wiped clean (even himself).

And while everybody's specualting that Dr.Strange will do this, let's not forget that Loki owes Spider-Man a favour, and he is powerful enough to do that (he is the god of lies and mischief).

And once the world forgets who Spider-Man is, he will really be a loner as he was always seen to be in the Marvel Universe... and with the SHRA in effect, it will make him seemingly even more untrustworthy from his fellow heroes (as he always was before), even though they will remember fighting alongside of him... it will add an uneasiness to any "team-ups".

Fair enough....so taking that forward a bit...what stops Tony from spilling who Spidey is??.....or is Tony himself mindwiped??....all data destroyed etc....

 

[farmernudie]

Yeh...this mindwipe thing, if it does happen, creates too many questions and problems.

MArvel (JQ) shouldn't allow so many (questionable) things into (continuity)stories that require a mindwipe or alternate time travel scheme or require a God of Mischief to come in and cleanup later. LOL

...So in typical Peter Parker grandiose nobility, he will stay away from her even though he loves her more than anything, and once again, the Spectre of Spider-Man will come between Peter Parker and the woman he loves.

Yes, it does look like this is the direction it is headed. It'll neatly clean up the identity issue and anything else (organic webshooters??) that they want to forget and not mention again.

The thing is...WHY does the Spectre of Spider-Man HAVE to come between them....JUST BECAUSE JQ does't LIKE IT and forces it to be that way.

And i still ASK what good is there in having a mindwiped (married or unmarried, regardless of her mental ability to remember) MJ around?? She'll have NO PURPOSE and it'd be a shallow character. (in no way am i advocating by this statement she should be killed! LOL) She'll just be a character that Pete can have no real meaning with at any angle, date (even tho they'll be married unless they're divorced whether they recall it or not), or what have you.

I hope they don't go the route of Spidey remembering but not getting involved to protect her or whatever either. Obviously, he CAN be involved with her, and has. He LOVES her too, is the main thing. He'd want to be there for her and protect her.

The main problem is....if they don't keep the marriage, WHATEVER THEY DO....i only see THAT being retconned in a year or so.

I'd rather move foreward NOW without creating a bigger mess to have to clean up later again. Mindwipe now will lead to mindwipes later! LOL

There is a thing as too much wiping!!

 

[Themanofbat]

Fair enough....so taking that forward a bit...what stops Tony from spilling who Spidey is??.....or is Tony himself mindwiped??....all data destroyed etc....

Yep... his identity will be known to no one... until Batman comes along, pieces all the clues together, and figures it out.

 

[Themanofbat]

The thing is...WHY does the Spectre of Spider-Man HAVE to come between them....JUST BECAUSE JQ does't LIKE IT and forces it to be that way.

Well, the Spectre of Spider-Man has ALWAYS come between Peter Parker and the women he loves... going all the way back to Betty Brant. He was about to tell her his identity until she got mad at Spider-Man for the death of her brother. In JQ's eyes, this is a perfect thing to happen because it just smacks of old school Stan Lee Spider-Man...

And i still ASK what good is there in having a mindwiped (married or unmarried, regardless of her mental ability to remember) MJ around?? She'll have NO PURPOSE and it'd be a shallow character. (in no way am i advocating by this statement she should be killed! LOL) She'll just be a character that Pete can have no real meaning with at any angle, date (even tho they'll be married unless they're divorced whether they recall it or not), or what have you.

I hope they don't go the route of Spidey remembering but not getting involved to protect her or whatever either. Obviously, he CAN be involved with her, and has. He LOVES her too, is the main thing. He'd want to be there for her and protect her.

She'd be around as a good member of Spidey's supporting cast, alongside Betty Brant, Aunt May, Flash Thompson, JJJ, etc... And of course, Marvel would have plenty of stories that could last years of him pining to be with her, but he musn't touch the forbidden fruit so as to not spoil it (by exposing her to his enemies and such). He'll love her til the day he dies, but he musn't be with her because he's Spider-Man... it's his gift, it's his curse. They can weave this alongside the movies...

It's almost too glorious an opportunity for Marvel to pass up... because if done properly, we as readers will once again feel Peter's pain as Spider-Man prevents him from being with the girl he loves...

 

[ScottishFogg]

what hurts about this idea the most is the idea that the marriage wouldn't be mentioned ever again, should they decide to do away with it. does MJ mean that little to everyone? we've read 30 years of comics with Peter mourning the loss of Gwen and then he loses MJ and it doesn't dent him a little bit? what a slap in the face!

let's not forget something very big and important: if MJ serves no other purpose, she brings an extra element and fantasy to this already fantastic book. the idea that any geeky, nerdy kid could grow up and meet, love, and marry this astonishingly beautiful and caring girl had a lot of drawing power for me when i was reading these books.

i started reading these books in the 90's. by then, Spidey was already married. he was somebody i looked up to. i didn't see him as a father figure, he was a big brother to me. and you know what? he still is.

i'm twenty-six years old and now i'm married to my own beautiful redhead and i'm still kind of looking up to Spider-Man. i see the decisions he makes and marvel over them, wondering if i could do the same thing in that situation.

taking MJ away and acting like she was never there would murder Peter's character and MJ's. no matter how you try to cover it up with magic or convenient plot devices.

 

[Norman Osborn]

Yep... his identity will be known to no one... until Batman comes along, pieces all the clues together, and figures it out.

Yeah but then they'll just mind wipe Batman....cause that worked real well for DC

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Isn't that What Marvel's been doing over the last decade... trying to give spidey bad reboots and retconning his past into oblivion?

No, because Marvel has been trying to restore the character to his "glory" days without completely erasing portions of his history, which is what DC does with their crises and their 52's and whatnot.

Honestly, I'm sort of with TMOB here, because so far we only have Quesada's comments to go by (which have been misleading in the past). I'm holding out hope, but I think if things turn out the way everyone seems to think they will judging by this information, it might be the last straw for me and Spidey for a while.

 

[Mara Jane]

Well, the Spectre of Spider-Man has ALWAYS come between Peter Parker and the women he loves... going all the way back to Betty Brant. He was about to tell her his identity until she got mad at Spider-Man for the death of her brother. In JQ's eyes, this is a perfect thing to happen because it just smacks of old school Stan Lee Spider-Man...



She'd be around as a good member of Spidey's supporting cast, alongside Betty Brant, Aunt May, Flash Thompson, JJJ, etc... And of course, Marvel would have plenty of stories that could last years of him pining to be with her, but he musn't touch the forbidden fruit so as to not spoil it (by exposing her to his enemies and such). He'll love her til the day he dies, but he musn't be with her because he's Spider-Man... it's his gift, it's his curse. They can weave this alongside the movies...

It's almost too glorious an opportunity for Marvel to pass up... because if done properly, we as readers will once again feel Peter's pain as Spider-Man prevents him from being with the girl he loves...

So Peter will never be allowed to date any woman ever again? Blech. That's just too awful for words.