The Last Jedi Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (VIII)

Mjölnir;36237079 said:
If he wasn't wrong, why does Kylo need to plead for help to stay on the dark side? Why does Snoke worry that he'll turn to the light like Vader did?

If there's absolutely no light in him he's like Darth Sidious. Do you think he sat in his chambers asking the old Sith for help to stay evil?

Why, when he was finally free of Snoke's influence, with someone willing to offer forgiveness and the chance to return to his family, did he choose to remain with the First Order and and lead an army to destroy them?

It's not that he doesn't have the ability to turn to the light. It's that he keeps choosing not to.
 
Yep. In fact, the conversation he has with Leia is the opposite of the talk they had in ROTJ. Back on Endor, he told Leia that he had to face Vader because he’d seen good in him and he had to try and save him. On Crait, he told her he had to face Ben, “...but I can’t save him.”

I do believe Luke saw what Kylo truly was the night he tried to kill him. He wasn’t wrong about him.

To be fair, I think you could argue that Luke recognizes that HE can't be the one to save Ben because he's the one who failed him. He also says "no one's ever truly gone". I think the movie leaves some room for interpretation there with the juxtaposition of both of those lines
 
Why, when he was finally free of Snoke's influence, with someone willing to offer forgiveness and the chance to return to his family, did he choose to remain with the First Order and and lead an army to destroy them?

It's not that he doesn't have the ability to turn to the light. It's that he keeps choosing not to.

Come now, don't change the goal posts. The post that originated this discussion is about that there's supposedly no good/light in Kylo.

Since there being good/light in him doesn't mean that he'll automatically turn to the light your point isn't relevant. Luke didn't go to Vader and the Emperor because he had a guarantee that his father would redeem himself, he did it because there was a chance and Luke doesn't give up on people he loves. Whether it actually happens is just a writer choice and Kylo is definitely written to have a lot of light in him and therefor has a clear possibility of turning.

And a significant part of that is that we're shown that Kylo has a lot of light in him way later than the point that Luke saw into him, so he's had a lot more time to kill his good side when we see him, as well as that Snoke's influence has had more time to grow.
 
Mjölnir;36237129 said:
Come now, don't change the goal posts. The post that originated this discussion is about that there's supposedly no good/light in Kylo.

Since there being good/light in him doesn't mean that he'll automatically turn to the light your point isn't relevant. Luke didn't go to Vader and the Emperor because he had a guarantee that his father would redeem himself, he did it because there was a chance and Luke doesn't give up on people he loves. Whether it actually happens is just a writer choice and Kylo is definitely written to have a lot of light in him and therefor has a clear possibility of turning.

And a significant part of that is that we're shown that Kylo has a lot of light in him way later than the point that Luke saw into him, so he's had a lot more time to kill his good side when we see him, as well as that Snoke's influence has had more time to grow.

Not changing the goal posts. This is all in line with what we've seen.

Kylo has struggled with what he's called "the call to the light'. I believe that he's conflicted, especially when it comes to his family.

But....

Every time he's been offered forgiveness, every time he's had the opportunity to redeem himself, he makes the wrong choice. Even when he spared Leia on the bridge of the Raddus, he later led an army to destroy the base she was hiding in. The light is calling him back, but he always turns away from it.

Leia left those dice for him to find in the end. She wanted to leave a message by taking them away from him when he tried to hold them. They're done with forgiveness now. He chose his path, and it cost him. (and it makes me sadder we won't see the rest of Leia's arc in IX)
 
Not changing the goal posts. This is all in line with what we've seen.

Kylo has struggled with what he's called "the call to the light'. I believe that he's conflicted, especially when it comes to his family.

But....

Every time he's been offered forgiveness, every time he's had the opportunity to redeem himself, he makes the wrong choice. Even when he spared Leia on the bridge of the Raddus, he later led an army to destroy the base she was hiding in. The light is calling him back, but he always turns away from it.

Leia left those dice for him to find in the end. She wanted to leave a message by taking them away from him when he tried to hold them. They're done with forgiveness now. He chose his path, and it cost him. (and it makes me sadder we won't see the rest of Leia's arc in IX)

It was because you talked about whether he actually does turn, instead of whether he has light in him which is what the post you quoted was about. It was about Luke supposedly seeing no light in Kylo, despite that he's by far the dark sider in SW that's shown the biggest temptation of the light.

The importance of the difference is that one is just where the writer wants to take the story, and the other is about whether the writer can manage to write a consistent plot.

As for the dice, how would Leia know they would disappear in his hands?
 
My personal take...when Luke ignites the saber, he has sensed that Kylo will kill Han.

I think it's ambiguous enough to interpret whatever you think he saw there, but I see that in particular as being something that would momentarily trigger such a reaction from Luke to blind him in the moment from how he might've been pushing things down that road.
 
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My personal take...when Luke ignites the saber, he has sensed that Kylo will kill Han.

I think it's ambiguous enough to interpret whatever you think he saw there, but I see that in particular as being something that would momentarily trigger such a reaction from Luke to blind him in the moment from how he might've been pushing things down that road.

Luke says he had a vision of Ben killing people with everything in flames, and in TFA Leia says Snoke had been corrupting him for a long time. I think the irony of the moment is that Luke's fleeting moral lapse, in which he thought he could prevent all of the destruction before it happened, is what actually caused the destruction. But it was more a final push for Ben into darkness instead of the one and only contributing factor.
 
Luke says he had a vision of Ben killing people with everything in flames, and in TFA Leia says Snoke had been corrupting him for a long time. I think the irony of the moment is that Luke's fleeting moral lapse, in which he thought he could prevent all of the destruction before it happened, is what actually caused the destruction. But it was more a final push for Ben into darkness instead of the one and only contributing factor.

Yeah, I see it as more of an acceleration of it than a "everything would've worked out just swell if he just hadn't done that" too. But certainly a bit dramatic irony there.
 
Luke says he had a vision of Ben killing people with everything in flames, and in TFA Leia says Snoke had been corrupting him for a long time. I think the irony of the moment is that Luke's fleeting moral lapse, in which he thought he could prevent all of the destruction before it happened, is what actually caused the destruction. But it was more a final push for Ben into darkness instead of the one and only contributing factor.

It was definitely just a final push rather than a contributing factor. What shouldn't be forgotten is that in the time it took for Luke to regain consciousness Ben had gone to the temple, convinced some of the students to turn to the Darkside with him, killed the other students and burned the temple down. Turning the students is not something that could have been done in a few minutes, Ben had to have been slowly turning them for a while. The whole thing could have been something that he had been working on for a while, Luke just forced him to change the timetable.
 
Luke says he had a vision of Ben killing people with everything in flames, and in TFA Leia says Snoke had been corrupting him for a long time. I think the irony of the moment is that Luke's fleeting moral lapse, in which he thought he could prevent all of the destruction before it happened, is what actually caused the destruction. But it was more a final push for Ben into darkness instead of the one and only contributing factor.

It was like Anakin seeing Padme’s death and thinking he could stop it. That vision he had came true because of everything he did.
 
Luke says he had a vision of Ben killing people with everything in flames, and in TFA Leia says Snoke had been corrupting him for a long time. I think the irony of the moment is that Luke's fleeting moral lapse, in which he thought he could prevent all of the destruction before it happened, is what actually caused the destruction. But it was more a final push for Ben into darkness instead of the one and only contributing factor.

It was definitely just a final push rather than a contributing factor. What shouldn't be forgotten is that in the time it took for Luke to regain consciousness Ben had gone to the temple, convinced some of the students to turn to the Darkside with him, killed the other students and burned the temple down. Turning the students is not something that could have been done in a few minutes, Ben had to have been slowly turning them for a while. The whole thing could have been something that he had been working on for a while, Luke just forced him to change the timetable.

It was like Anakin seeing Padme’s death and thinking he could stop it. That vision he had came true because of everything he did.

Agreed. I think the issue is that we have so little to go on. As it stands, it appears as if Luke looked into Ben’s mind once, saw darkness for the first time, and tried to kill him. But I think the dialogue suggests otherwise. Luke and Leia clearly knew that Snoke had been influencing Ben for some time, and had clearly worried about the darkness creeping into him. That’s why Luke looked in the first place. But we don’t know how Snoke entered this story. We don’t know how long Snoke had been in contact with Ben (or how). So a little more on that history would have been good, even if it had been a line or two. Say, had Luke tried to turn him away from that path several times, or if Luke had actually confronted Snoke. Also, had Luke said that he saw Kylo Ren corrupting his other students, that might have been more believable (not only would Ben bring destruction, but he’d lead others to cause destruction as well).
 
Mjölnir;36237013 said:
And I do find it laughable when anyone says that there isn't any light in Kylo Ren. The guy that sits alone and pleads to his grandfather's mask to give him strength to resist the call of the light? That's the film directly telling you how much light there is in him, and yet people say that there is none. Funny stuff to me.


Uhh, in The Force Awakens, sure. :cwink:

Early parts of TLJ, too. Once the throne room shiz goes down though, he's pretty clearly all-in on the darkness, Anakin-at-the-end-of-ROTJ style. I'd argue even leading up to the throne room it's inferred he knows exactly what he's going to do, from his tone talking to Rey in the elevator, the way he looks at her upon arriving in the pod, his demeanor in the force-link visions and all.

Saying he has light in him in TFA is a little weird, 'cause ****ing duh. That's a little different to where he is as a person in act III of TLJ though. Guy's embraced it all by now.
 
Uhh, in The Force Awakens, sure. :cwink:

Early parts of TLJ, too. Once the throne room shiz goes down though, he's pretty clearly all-in on the darkness, Anakin-at-the-end-of-ROTJ style. I'd argue even leading up to the throne room it's inferred he knows exactly what he's going to do, from his tone talking to Rey in the elevator, the way he looks at her upon arriving in the pod, his demeanor in the force-link visions and all.

Saying he has light in him in TFA is a little weird, 'cause ****ing duh. That's a little different to where he is as a person in act III of TLJ though. Guy's embraced it all by now.

So you again just ignored that I pointed out that we're discussing the point of when Luke searched Ben while sleeping in the past?

If Kylo has so much light in him in TFA that he struggles to stay dark, then it's absurd to say that he can't have had any light in him when Luke looked into him. It makes no sense that he would be 100% evil while laying there sleeping and then being on the verge of turning back several years later under Snoke's rule for no reason whatsoever.
 
Any good-quality images of Projection Luke?
 
This has some nice shots of him, its just the footage from the Secrets video that was released.

[YT]1gEP_lxbTpQ[/YT]
 
Mjölnir;36239631 said:
If Kylo has so much light in him in TFA that he struggles to stay dark, then it's absurd to say that he can't have had any light in him when Luke looked into him. It makes no sense that he would be 100% evil while laying there sleeping and then being on the verge of turning back several years later under Snoke's rule for no reason whatsoever.



Luke never indicated he "had no light in him". Only that he sensed a severe darkness, and combined with his "raw power" the potential for Kylo going off the rails sent Luke more than a little batty. He refrained at the last minute, did the right thing, but it was too late.

That doesn't contradict TFA at all. He doesn't go all-evil until midway through TLJ.
 
Luke never indicated he "had no light in him". Only that he sensed a severe darkness, and combined with his "raw power" the potential for Kylo going off the rails sent Luke more than a little batty. He refrained at the last minute, did the right thing, but it was too late.

That doesn't contradict TFA at all. He doesn't go all-evil until midway through TLJ.

Read the discussions before you jump into them. You're just rambling on about pointless things because you clearly don't know what the discussion is about (despite that I've clarified to you three times).
 
Luke says he had a vision of Ben killing people with everything in flames, and in TFA Leia says Snoke had been corrupting him for a long time. I think the irony of the moment is that Luke's fleeting moral lapse, in which he thought he could prevent all of the destruction before it happened, is what actually caused the destruction. But it was more a final push for Ben into darkness instead of the one and only contributing factor.
Yikes.

And this "Luke" decided to run away and hide on a desert planet after finding that out.

"Jake Skywalker" to Leia and Han as he jumps in his X-wing: "Good luck with the impending doom guys! I'm out of here!"
 
This has some nice shots of him, its just the footage from the Secrets video that was released.

[YT]1gEP_lxbTpQ[/YT]
Thanks.

Anyone mind grabbing screencaps/gifs from this? I'd do it myself but iPads are completely useless. :o
 
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I still can't get over the fact that Luke Skywalker is dead. And to have died without having made any corrections to his mistakes, thus dying as a failure.

What a crappy fate for Luke Skywalker.
 
I still can't get over the fact that Luke Skywalker is dead. And to have died without having made any corrections to his mistakes, thus dying as a failure.

What a crappy fate for Luke Skywalker.

Even though I saw TLJ for a 2nd time today and enjoyed it more. I still fell this. If Luke would have survived at the end, I would be fine with it. But him dying just kills it for me.

If he was going to die, he may as well have gone there in person and projected himself from the base before confronting Kylo for real.
 
I don’t feel like we’ve seen the last of him all.

When he was watching the binary sunset in ANH, it was out of longing to go somewhere better. When he died watching another sunset, he was ready to go on his next journey. Like Rey told Leia, she felt “peace and purpose” at his death. And he told Leia no one was ever really gone.

I don’t think his story is done yet. When Han died, I was heartbroken over it (even though I was expecting it). I didn’t feel that at all with Luke’s death. I felt like he’d finally found his path.
 
Hans death fit for me, and it advanced the story also, at least Kylo’s.

Luke’s death just pissesme off more than anything. I certainly liked TLJ a lot more on my 2nd watch today, but the way Luke’s death played out still pissed me right off.
 
Luke surviving would have made me more forgiving of what I think was a misrepresentation of the character. Had he lived that problem would at least just have been a speed bump and there would be a chance to see a more true version of him in the next episode. Now he pretty much didn't amount to anything more than the failure and there's no way to come back from that. Seeing him as a force ghost will not change anything for me.
 

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