Marvel Now - Part 4

[Norrin Parker]

Disagree

 

[roach]

Xaviers dream, is just that a dream. The simple fact that mutants are discriminated against when thousands of non mutants display similar powers and they weren't discriminated against it proved that in the MU it wasn't powers that were scarey, it was simply the perception of them being the next step in human evolution, that fear would never go away with time. You do not see your replacement and think oh, yeah we will just coexist, that's not how nature works. Mutants will eventually be the dominant species, humans will never accept this, there will be war, and the mutants are the ones who deserve to win. Whether it takes 10 years, 100, years or 1000, there are new mutants being born now, Cyclops efforts paid off, and eventually, homo Superior will own the planet, if Xavier got his wish, humans would finish the job the started at Genosha, it is utter stupidity to risk the life of your race on the compassion of your inferiors. Cyclops has learned this, Xavier was a chump.

Yeah I don't think thats true. the problem with the comics is that everyone wanted to refer to Xavier as the MLK of mutants but didn't make that a reality. Xavier should have been more active in making his dream become a reality instead of sitting in his school all the time. Your point of view shows a negative view point of humanity. That was the point of Xavier's dream. To see the best in humanity rather than the worst. Gay rights activists were able to gain a lot of ground without their being massive bloodshed or fighting. There is a lot of work for them but most of the heavy lifting is done.

 

[mwmillett]

Yeah I don't think thats true. the problem with the comics is that everyone wanted to refer to Xavier as the MLK of mutants but didn't make that a reality. Xavier should have been more active in making his dream become a reality instead of sitting in his school all the time. Your point of view shows a negative view point of humanity. That was the point of Xavier's dream. To see the best in humanity rather than the worst. Gay rights activists were able to gain a lot of ground without their being massive bloodshed or fighting. There is a lot of work for them but most of the heavy lifting is done.

I never saw the correlation between civil rights groups and mutants, civil rights refers to humans, mutants are homo superior, a new race, not just a subset of humanity but an evolution of humanity. Sure there is some overlap in wanting equal rights, but at the end of the day the situation has to be seen for what it is. Homo Sapiens on the whole replaced Neanderthals, sure there was some interbreeding as recent evidence has shown, but overall neanderthals were replaced, homo sapiens can interbreed with homo superior, but eventually homo superior should and will replace them. Xaviers dream denies this evolutionary fact.

 

[roach]

Xaviers dream denies this evolutionary fact.

It does not. Xavier sees a peaceful means of living together. Mutants can and will out breed humanity but that is a hell of a lot better than war.

I feel like I am arguing with William Stryker

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I never saw the correlation between civil rights groups and mutants, civil rights refers to humans, mutants are homo superior, a new race, not just a subset of humanity but an evolution of humanity. Sure there is some overlap in wanting equal rights, but at the end of the day the situation has to be seen for what it is. Homo Sapiens on the whole replaced Neanderthals, sure there was some interbreeding as recent evidence has shown, but overall neanderthals were replaced, homo sapiens can interbreed with homo superior, but eventually homo superior should and will replace them. Xaviers dream denies this evolutionary fact.

No, it doesn't. It just says that there doesn't have to be a war or purge or anything like that before mutants become the dominant race. Humanity and mutantkind can live in harmony. There's absolutely a parallel to civil rights groups. What do you think scared white people so much about blacks and other minorities? That the US as a whole would turn more brown, as it's doing now, and the whites would lose their position of privilege. That's exactly the same issue with humans and mutants. In both cases, a minority of the majority wants to wipe out the perceived threat of these new people, but the majority are receptive to living peacefully with them. You're talking about damning all of humanity for the sins of a few rather than fighting against those actually responsible, which is just as bigoted and wrongheaded as every single human jerk who threw a bottle at a mutant in the comics. Way to miss the point entirely.

 

[roach]

No, it doesn't. It just says that there doesn't have to be a war or purge or anything like that before mutants become the dominant race. Humanity and mutantkind can live in harmony. There's absolutely a parallel to civil rights groups. What do you think scared white people so much about blacks and other minorities? That the US as a whole would turn more brown, as it's doing now, and the whites would lose their position of privilege. That's exactly the same issue with humans and mutants. In both cases, a minority of the majority wants to wipe out the perceived threat of these new people, but the majority are receptive to living peacefully with them. You're talking about damning all of humanity for the sins of a few rather than fighting against those actually responsible, which is just as bigoted and wrongheaded as every single human jerk who threw a bottle at a mutant in the comics. Way to miss the point entirely.

Exactly...I am not sure what the new comics are teaching this kid...go get a copy of "God Loves, Man Kills"

 

[mwmillett]

Exactly...I am not sure what the new comics are teaching this kid...go get a copy of "God Loves, Man Kills"

Trust me, while I may be new to this forum, I am no kid, and I have already read it. Take a step back from world parallels, mutants, should not ever be forced into any government programs that they do not wish to be in, If they are attacked like they were they have every right to defend themselves with force. They have the right to disregard the laws of the USA because the USA attacked them and their sovereignty and then displaced them. This is a struggle for survival, Scott isnt going out to attack people for no good reason, hes only doing so in defense of mutants, contrary to Xaviers, allow them to torture you while you trust the system routine. History shows us that humanity will not accept mutants, that is what xaviers dream contests, and there is no reason why anyone should allow themselves to be persecuted when they have the strength to defend themselves, if this leads to war, then that is what will happen for the aforementioned reasons. Does this mean that in real life I advocate the armed rebellion of minorities and groups that feel threatened no, would I advocate it if they were being interned, yeah I would, but ultimately the comic world is very different than the real world. They consequences for inaction by Scott could lead to another genosha. Xaviers dream saw the deaths of millions of mutants, we cannot afford that kind of wishful thinking any longer.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Uh, yeah. Enjoy the Kool-Aid, man. I'm out.

 

[mwmillett]

No, it doesn't. It just says that there doesn't have to be a war or purge or anything like that before mutants become the dominant race. Humanity and mutantkind can live in harmony. There's absolutely a parallel to civil rights groups. What do you think scared white people so much about blacks and other minorities? That the US as a whole would turn more brown, as it's doing now, and the whites would lose their position of privilege. That's exactly the same issue with humans and mutants. In both cases, a minority of the majority wants to wipe out the perceived threat of these new people, but the majority are receptive to living peacefully with them. You're talking about damning all of humanity for the sins of a few rather than fighting against those actually responsible, which is just as bigoted and wrongheaded as every single human jerk who threw a bottle at a mutant in the comics. Way to miss the point entirely.

I am not missing the point, but I think you misunderstand mine, I did not mean that Xaviers dream is not valid, rather his approach to achieving it is what fails to account for human nature and the evolutionary dynamic that is currently in play. I never said that Mutants should wipe out humans just for being human, rather I said that the natural course of events will lead to that, and that this would be the correct outcome.

Mutants have the right to defend themselves, this will lead to more fear, more attacks, more government action, which the mutants have the right to defend themselves against, this cycle of escalation will lead to larger conflicts and eventually a tipping point where the government will no longer be able to threaten and attack mutants or mutants will be wiped out, this will then give mutants a chance to live in peace, if they then take it a step further to kill humans that aren't attacking them then I would agree that is just as bad, but that has not been the case. Scott has only been targetting those agents who are directly attacking mutants, and the only reason people say he has given up on Xaviers dream is because Scott isnt taking the abuse lying down anymore.

 

[mwmillett]

Uh, yeah. Enjoy the Kool-Aid, man. I'm out.

What do you disagree with exactly? Do you think Xaviers methods for achieving his dream have worked? Do you know what Eisenstein definition of insanity is? It is about time for a new approach.

 

[hippie_hunter]

When you attack your own people in their own home, in their own nation on behalf of a hostile government that makes you a race traitor. You can disagree with scott all you want, but when it comes down to it, you side with family. Sadly, Wolverine proved is loyalty was to himself and his jealousy of scott's relationship with jean.

1. Wolverine founded a school to educate his fellow mutants as opposed to militarizing them like Cyclops was doing. And is a member of the Avengers which helps promote mutants being more mainstream. He's done far more in recent years to promote Xavier's dream than Cyclops ever has.

2. Cyclops' decision to embrace the Phoenix was utterly dangerous and reckless. Any responsible person, mutant or otherwise, would have opposed him. And guess what, Wolverine was right. It wasn't that he was loyal to himself or jealous of Scott's relationship with Jean, his decision was driven by protecting his students (fellow mutants) and previous experiences with the Phoenix Force. And there were other X-Men who supported that decision as well such as Beast, Charles Xavier, and Hope Summers.

3. The Avengers arrived on Utopia to talk. They had back up just in case things went wrong, but Captain America wanted to talk. Cyclops was the one who threw the first blow. Thus they started the war. There really wasn't anything hostile about the intentions of the US government and the Avengers until Cyclops made them hostile.

4. Utopia wasn't Wolverine's home. He and other X-Men left because Cyclops because a deranged ****ing lunatic. Their home, was the Jean Grey Academy, which was never attacked. The Avengers or US government had no intention of being hostile towards mutantkind. They were going up against a militant faction of extreme mutants who were a few steps short of being Magneto-esque.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You are right, I along with most of the people I grew up with who were into comics were just waiting for Xavier to wake up, Magneto had been right all along and Xavier was just a joke who couldn't bring himself to stand up for his people.

Xaviers dream, is just that a dream. The simple fact that mutants are discriminated against when thousands of non mutants display similar powers and they weren't discriminated against it proved that in the MU it wasn't powers that were scarey, it was simply the perception of them being the next step in human evolution, that fear would never go away with time. You do not see your replacement and think oh, yeah we will just coexist, that's not how nature works. Mutants will eventually be the dominant species, humans will never accept this, there will be war, and the mutants are the ones who deserve to win. Whether it takes 10 years, 100, years or 1000, there are new mutants being born now, Cyclops efforts paid off, and eventually, homo Superior will own the planet, if Xavier got his wish, humans would finish the job the started at Genosha, it is utter stupidity to risk the life of your race on the compassion of your inferiors. Cyclops has learned this, Xavier was a chump.

Ummmmm......how are you an X-Men fan?

 

[Anubis]

He only likes zee villains.

 

[Will Nolte]

I had this idea pop up in my head that with the end of the Superior Spider-Man era, maybe we'll see something like a Spider-Man Inc. with various people like Kaine, Flash Thompson, Miguel O'Hara, and Miles Morales swinging around under the Spider-Man mantle.

As cheesy as that sounds, it also sounds pretty interesting. Kind of fits as the next step, seeing as how Slott has had SpOck using the "Spider Squads" to fight crime for him. I could see all the "Spider-Man Inc" people communicating in the same way and being organized. It could also be a way for Peter to rebuild the trust the public lost/loses in him thanks to SpOck...

 

[Havok83]

3. The Avengers arrived on Utopia to talk. They had back up just in case things went wrong, but Captain America wanted to talk. Cyclops was the one who threw the first blow. Thus they started the war. There really wasn't anything hostile about the intentions of the US government and the Avengers until Cyclops made them hostile.

They showed up on Utopia with a SHIELD hellcarrier with dozens of Avengers and fighter jets. That doesn't scream hostility? Cap didn't show up to talk things out. He came to apprehend a child and wasn't leaving without her regardless of what Scott thought. He was prepared to take Hope by force if necessary. Considering Scott was protecting Hope and wasn't going to allow that, fighting was inevitable.

4. Utopia wasn't Wolverine's home. He and other X-Men left because Cyclops because a deranged ****ing lunatic.

And Wolverine didn't leave Utopia bc Scott was a deranged lunatic bc he wasn't by the point Schism happened. Wolverine left bc he didn't support the decision to allow the children to fight.If children are going to be X-men, they need real life experience. Its what's been done with the X-men since day one, going back to the O5, then Kitty, Colossus, and Rogue and every generation since. Simple danger room sessions and classrooms isn't enough to prepare them for whats out there. They need to be able to defend themselves and that's not really something you learn, its acquired through experience. As seen in Schism, sometimes the fight comes straight to your home and you cant simply run and hide. BTW, the students were able to defeat that sentinel without the aid of the adult X-men (whom were all away). They cant be expected to be around all the time to protect them and I didn't think there was anything wrong with Cyclops wanting to lead them in battle against the sentinel. If anything Wolverine was wrong in distracting him from that battle by attacking him. It was the wrong time and place for that.

I always found it ironic the stance that Wolverine had, yet a few weeks later when Exodus attacked, it was Hope and team of teens which were able to help him defeat him and he used them as soldiers when his back was against the wall. hope called him out on this hypocrisy and it was a great moment

Their home, was the Jean Grey Academy, which was never attacked. The Avengers or US government had no intention of being hostile towards mutantkind. They were going up against a militant faction of extreme mutants who were a few steps short of being Magneto-esque.

Oh that is definitely NOT true. The Avengers showed up at the Jean Grey and started fighting with the staff there and hurt the students. They were attacked in the pages of X-men Legacy and this assault is what inspired Rogue and her team to get involved in the event after taking a neutral stance. I don't know, maybe it was in one of the many tie ins, you may have missed but the Avengers definitely did attack the school and put the lives of mutants at risk when they did so. And as far as having no intentions of being hostile towards mutantkind, I will always remember the image of Thor punching out a defenseless student during this event.

 

[runawayboulder]

Since when did AvX become good enough story to spark any kind of debate? That story blew so hard, it should just be forgotten about at this point.

 

[JewishHobbit]

True story.

Except for Namor attacking Wakanda. That was a pretty cool moment.

 

[roach]

Since when did AvX become good enough story to spark any kind of debate? That story blew so hard, it should just be forgotten about at this point.

This...Cyclops and Cap fought because the story needed them to.

technically you can't set up a sovereign nation within the borders of another sovereign nation and not piss someone off. Utopia was set up in the middle of San Fran bay...which is still part of the US.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Right, anything having to do with Avengers and X-Men fighting each other sucked. Now people fighting against the possessed Phoenix 5 was a little better because it made more sense and had some historical grounding... kinda. But the first half of the event... garbage.

 

[runawayboulder]

True story.

Except for Namor attacking Wakanda. That was a pretty cool moment.

That and Spider-Man pulling a fast one on Phoenix powered Colossus and Magik. Those were the only notable things that happened.

 

[Shockdingo]

As cheesy as that sounds, it also sounds pretty interesting. Kind of fits as the next step, seeing as how Slott has had SpOck using the "Spider Squads" to fight crime for him. I could see all the "Spider-Man Inc" people communicating in the same way and being organized. It could also be a way for Peter to rebuild the trust the public lost/loses in him thanks to SpOck...

Plus, it would be kind of cool to see Pete maturing in a new way. Realizing that while he's got pals in the Avengers, he needs to take his superheroics in a new direction and those with likeminded interests and abilities. Avengers and the FF aren't always available to aid Pete in a problem close to his heart, so, why not get some close buds who can? I feel leadership on Pete would be a nice new step into taking him away from being eternally 16 or so.

 

[JewishHobbit]

That and Spider-Man pulling a fast one on Phoenix powered Colossus and Magik. Those were the only notable things that happened.

Yeah, that Spidey moment was pretty awesome too. I'll agree to that. The last half was definitely better than the second half, that's for sure.

And as a personal thing, I loved seeing Cyclops take Emma out as well. Anytime she can get beat around equals a good scene. An issue or two of Battle of the Atom was pretty good for that reason.

 

[JewishHobbit]

Plus, it would be kind of cool to see Pete maturing in a new way. Realizing that while he's got pals in the Avengers, he needs to take his superheroics in a new direction and those with likeminded interests and abilities. Avengers and the FF aren't always available to aid Pete in a problem close to his heart, so, why not get some close buds who can? I feel leadership on Pete would be a nice new step into taking him away from being eternally 16 or so.

Marvel will never reach that point. He must always be the heroic, bumbling bafoon swinger. If he isn't, then he must be retconed back to it. He was actually heading that direction pre-OMD, but that fell by the wayside.

 

[Shockdingo]

Marvel will never reach that point. He must always be the heroic, bumbling bafoon swinger. If he isn't, then he must be retconed back to it. He was actually heading that direction pre-OMD, but that fell by the wayside.

Yea, a guy can dream can't he? Agreed, he was moving places before OMD and even with the Horizon stuff I felt he was taking some steps in the right direction. At least he finally got past being just a freakin' freelance photographer.

 

[Havok83]

Yeah, that Spidey moment was pretty awesome too. I'll agree to that. The last half was definitely better than the second half, that's for sure.

And as a personal thing, I loved seeing Cyclops take Emma out as well. Anytime she can get beat around equals a good scene. An issue or two of Battle of the Atom was pretty good for that reason.

AvX led to their breakup and they still havent reunited so if nothing else good came from the story, at least we got that