Mass Effect 3

[Benstamania]

you would think bioware wouldnt change the ending at all. unless they really did mean for it to be something else (******** flag thrown), then i would accept it. i havent even seen it but, people dont go back and completely change their piece of art. except Lucas.

honestly from what ive gathered, it seems like bioware just got overwhelmed with all the different possibilites bc of all the decisions in all 3 games.

are there any rachni on my side in this freaking game?

Yes, Rachni will help you in your quest.

Well.. Maybe.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Seriously?

Spoiler

It detects REAPERS and INDOCTRINATED people.

A person who is experiencing psychological conditioning to prep them for having their brain reprogrammed is not under reaper influence.

Please point to me where you're getting this "prepping" is something different from "indoctrination" idea:

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Indoctrination

 

[Balthus Dire]

Spoiler

I can point you quite clearly to where it detects two very different forms of Reaper presence, one of which these would fall under. You're the one making the distinction and the claim, the burden of evidence is on you.

Spoiler

You're the one repeatedly refuting the evidence, so the burden of evidence is on both of us. But, I'll play:

It detects a Reaper threat and it detects that KL is indoctrinated. Nowhere in the game does it say that it can detect someone who is either mid indoctrination or at the threat of becoming indoctrinated, nor does it say that it CANNOT detect someone mid indoctrination or in the threat of becoming indoctrinated.

Ergo, neither of of us have sufficient evidence to "prove" either theory. But, if you had read my posts, I'm not trying to "prove" either theory anyway...I'm trying to make you see that either theory is entirely possible. That's it.

 

[Matt]

I think gamers take Devs at their word WAY to often. Like, there's always that one guy that always believes the hype for the next Fable game... Only to once again be let down.

I don't know, but for some reason I didn't believe ME3 was going to be the end of a trilogy.. Mostly due how popular these characters are.

I myself want to continue on as my Shepard along with Joker, Garrus, Tali, Liara, etc.

Devs always say "so and so game is going to be IT" only to give us more..

See Hideout Kojima and Metal Gear for a major example, lol.

Thing is, this wasn't Peter Molyneux talking. Bioware has almost always lived up to what they promise. And unlike Molyneux, who hypes the hell out of a new Fable game initially, but then backs down once he realizes it can't meet the standard he promised....Bioware never let up. Throughout development, right to the very end Casey Hudson was saying things like, "no two endings will be the same." There was no sign that they would be unable to deliver what they promised.

But I do agree about Shepard. He's too iconic to get rid of. It is like when MS would say they are retiring Master Chief....you knew that he would be there in Halo 4, because for better or worse, he is the face of the franchise. The way they've marked ME3 around Shepard shows that he is now at the same level. They aren't going to get rid of him. I firmly believe Shepard will be the main character of ME4.

 

[Master Chief]

Please point to me where you're getting this "prepping" is something different from "indoctrination" idea:

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Indoctrination

Spoiler

"indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

This is your argument.

You: There is X.

Me: Prove it.

You: You prove there is no X.

As I said - I am basing my statement on the clear fact the Prothean VI detects physical and mental Reaper presence. You are saying it doesn't because it torpedoes the indoctrination theory.

 

[Balthus Dire]

It's also that 'fixing the problem' part that totally bothers me.

If the game was buggy, broken, not reading saves etc, then I would see a problem that needs fixing. This game doesn't have a problem. It has a specific way of ending the game which is a clear and definitive creative choice. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a problem.

Demanding it to be 'fixed' is just extremely gratuitous. That's like demanding they 'fix' the ending of The Dark Knight because no one liked Harvey Dent dying.

Sadly, this is just going to be a case of 'Hey guys, you didn't like it. That sucks and I'm sorry for you but... get over it.'

In other news, Firefly was cancelled, X-Men Origins: Wolverine sucked and Heath Ledger died before they could make another Batman movie with the Joker in it. Welcome to life. It can be disappointing.

Harvey Dent died?? DUDE SPOILERS!!!!!!!


Anyway, it might not end up being "fixing the problem" if Bioware has intended for the "theory" to be true all along, and basically just pulled a fast one on their gamers. Is that highly unlikely? Maybe. But that doesn't make it completely untrue, either, until Bioware says so.

Again, at this point I think people just want answers. If Bioware were to come out and say "Too bad this is it guys" just like you said, at least people could move on. Would everyone move on? Probably not...there's always gonna be fanboys who rage on forever, just like the dudes who still cry about Heath's Joker not having bleached skin.

But we're not at that point yet: Bioware has yet to officially comment. Once they do, everyone's points--including your own--are speculation.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

"indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other subliminal methods.

Spoiler

And you're asserting that this is not indoctrination. That this is an entirely different process?

 

[Matt]

Please point to me where you're getting this "prepping" is something different from "indoctrination" idea:

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Indoctrination

See, this is where they lose me as well. It's not like one moment you're not indoctrinated, the next you are. Indoctrination is a process. The Reapers get in your mind and slowly corrupt it. But even during those initial stages, you're still indoctrinated. They just aren't really pressing you yet. It's like if the V.I. detected cancer...it's not going to miss it because the cancer is in early stages and will only detect it if the patient is terminal. Nothing about the V.I. indicates that it only detects extreme indoctrination. [blackout]If that were the case, it would've never rejected talking to the Illusive Man (who isn't full on, Saren-level indoctrinated until the very end it seems.[/blackout]

 

[Wolvieboy17]

Thing is, this wasn't Peter Molyneux talking. Bioware has almost always lived up to what they promise. And unlike Molyneux, who hypes the hell out of a new Fable game initially, but then backs down once he realizes it can't meet the standard he promised....Bioware never let up. Throughout development, right to the very end Casey Hudson was saying things like, "no two endings will be the same." There was no sign that they would be unable to deliver what they promised.

See, to me, I think that means we should cut Bioware a little slack. For people who believe they have taken a misstep with the ending situation, it's a single misstep for a series that has been otherwise fantastic. We know Bioware are across this fan reaction to the endings... Isn't that enough now? Can't we give them the benefit of the doubt, to either do some kind of DLC or simply let them learn from their mistakes for future games?

Or do we go by the 'Burn us once, you're dead to us' policy people seem to be taking on?

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

See, this is where they lose me as well. It's not like one moment you're not indoctrinated, the next you are. Indoctrination is a process. The Reapers get in your mind and slowly corrupt it. But even during those initial stages, you're still indoctrinated. They just aren't really pressing you yet. It's like if the V.I. detected cancer...it's not going to miss it because the cancer is in early stages and will only detect it if the patient is terminal. Nothing about the V.I. indicates that it only detects extreme indoctrination. [blackout]If that were the case, it would've never rejected talking to the Illusive Man (who isn't full on, Saren-level indoctrinated until the very end it seems.[/blackout]

Thank you, a very good analogy right there.

 

[Balthus Dire]

Spoiler

This is your argument.

You: There is X.

Me: Prove it.

You: You prove there is no X.

As I said - I am basing my statement on the clear fact the Prothean VI detects physical and mental Reaper presence. You are saying it doesn't because it torpedoes the indoctrination theory.

Actually, it's more like this:

Spoiler

You: completely ignore everything we say.

 

[Master Chief]

Spoiler

And you're asserting that this is not indoctrination. That this is an entirely different process?

Spoiler

LOL they are not in his head. YET.

Vega complains about a humming noise soon after shadows and whispers enter Shepard's dreams. Subliminal conditioning. Not complete control.

 

[Carnage27]

'I WILL NEVER BUY A BIOWARE GAME AGAIN' nonsense that is just ridiculous.

I've said this, but only in the sense if the "theory" is indeed correct, and I have to buy DLC to see the actual game ending. I can deal with a crappy ending. As it stands, I'll buy Bioware games again happily. But if they knowingly sold an incomplete game, or a game witha fake ending just to come out with the real one in 2 months for a 10 dollar upcharge. I'm done. That has nothing to do with the creative direction, and everything to do with a business practice.

As people have pointed out before, does an ending you're not thrilled with cancel out over 100 hours of enjoyable gaming? Even if you don't fell every decision was fully met, was the game still fun for the most part?

Of course the game was fun. I wouldn't have finished it if it wasn't. But I can tell you this much, I was planning on replaying Mass Effect 2 and 3 in succession back to back after playing my first Mass Effect 3 run. But after the ending, I really have no desire to do so.

The ending is just not compelling. Even if I play 2 and 3 again, there's going to be that little voice in the back of my head saying, "Who cares what choice you make. It won't really matter in the end."

If someone's okay with that, good for them. But the whole promise of this game was that what you do will actually matter. It's shape this entire universe and you'll see the effects. To me, I feel lied to. Am I gonna cry about it forever? No. I'll probably forget about it once the next big game comes out. But the next time I hear all these promises from Bioware, I'll definitely be thinking twice about picking up their game.

Another thing I think is a little unfounded is the rage at this potential planned DLC that would continue the story.... As if all these HARDCORE fans, who have such a problem with this game that they need to post petitions and whatnot, weren't going to buy the all the DLC anyway.

I won't be. First of all, there can't be a story continuation, unless the "theory" is correct. In which case, as I said before, I'll be trading in my games unless Bioware comes out and says, "Yea, we effed up. We're sorry. Here's a better ending for our loyal fans on the house.". And if there is some random and force continuation that doesn't fix the ending, I just won't care all that much. Because even crappy closure is closure, and I don't feel the need to revisit a world I've gotten closure on for a piece of story that won't affect the ending.

I played 2 of the DLCs for ME2 because they came with my PS3 version. But I wouldn't have downloaded them otherwise.

I mean, I'm not saying Bioware are perfect, but I don't exactly see what makes this game worthy of stronger rage than any other minor video game injustice. There wasn't this much rage with the Skyrim bugs and problems... Or the Epic Games DLC pricing fiasco...

For the Skyrim bugs, people were pretty pissed. But Bethesda also came out and admitted they dropped the ball and that they were working to fix it.

With this, Bioware has acted incredibly arrogant (IMO) acting as if the fans should be grateful no matter what the outcome and patting themselves on the back for making a "controversial" outcome. I know it wasn't their intent, but coming out and saying they wanted the ending to be divisive seems like they're saying "Look, we just trolled our collective fanbase. Deal with it, nerds!"

Personally, I hold the company to a higher standard. They have never failed to put out an amazing story in the past for me. And everything they said about the Mass Effect series completely fell apart in those last 15 minutes for me. It's more than just a crappy ending. It's a crappy ending mixed with some arrogance mixed with trepidation on what the next move is.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

But we're not at that point yet: Bioware has yet to officially comment. Once they do, everyone's points--including your own--are speculation.

Didn't they comment the other day that they deliberately chose 'poloarising' endings? Isn't that them standing by the endings they chose?

I would say we lose nothing by moving on now. Nothing at all. You move on, accept things then what do you have to lose if they reveal something later? Nothing. Why waste energy on it now?

Most of all, this back and forth you guys have going over the theory now is just blatantly ridiculous. What is either side achieving at all?

 

[Matt]

See, to me, I think that means we should cut Bioware a little slack. For people who believe they have taken a misstep with the ending situation, it's a single misstep for a series that has been otherwise fantastic. We know Bioware are across this fan reaction to the endings... Isn't that enough now? Can't we give them the benefit of the doubt, to either do some kind of DLC or simply let them learn from their mistakes for future games?

Or do we go by the 'Burn us once, you're dead to us' policy people seem to be taking on?

The only reason I am being hard on them is because there is a point where Casey Hudson and co. should have just shut the hell up. They dug their own grave. It would've been fine if a year ago, they dropped the talking point about "no two endings being the same," because they realized it just isn't feasible. But they didn't. They just kept going and going and pushing it and pushing it (as one of the key selling points of the game no less). Unless they wrote the ending literally two weeks before launch, they knew it wouldn't be possible, yet they still kept saying it.

It is one thing to forgive for being unable to live up to the initial concept. But they didn't just do that. They lied. I think that is a big problem that a lot of fans are having. Like I said before, if I stop at a fruit stand that says "Apples for sale," and say, "I'll take an apple," and hand the gentleman my money...and he hands me an orange, am I simply being entitled if I say, "Wait...I paid for an apple."

Bioware sold something that they couldn't deliver on. And when it became apparent to them that they couldn't....well....they just kept on selling it. THAT is the problem.

 

[Benstamania]

It's also that 'fixing the problem' part that totally bothers me.

If the game was buggy, broken, not reading saves etc, then I would see a problem that needs fixing. This game doesn't have a problem. It has a specific way of ending the game which is a clear and definitive creative choice. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it a problem.

Demanding it to be 'fixed' is just extremely gratuitous. That's like demanding they 'fix' the ending of The Dark Knight because no one liked Harvey Dent dying.

Sadly, this is just going to be a case of 'Hey guys, you didn't like it. That sucks and I'm sorry for you but... get over it.'

In other news, Firefly was cancelled, X-Men Origins: Wolverine sucked and Heath Ledger died before they could make another Batman movie with the Joker in it. Welcome to life. It can be disappointing.

Oh man, I have friends that said they would be boycotting the next Batman flick after Harvey Dent died.. Funny story about them... After b&m'ing for a few years they have their tickets ordered for TDKR already..

I will always hate the over dramatic cry of "never buying said game or watching said movie series again" because something upset them.

I do understand why some people might not like the endings. I get the Cory Hudson is a BSer... But in the end the ending to ME3 does not ruin the series.. Much like DA II did not kill the DA series.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

LOL they are not in his head. YET.

Vega complains about a humming noise soon after shadows and whispers enter Shepard's dreams. Subliminal conditioning. Not complete control.

Matt responded quite nicely to this.

Actually, it's more like this:

Spoiler

You: completely ignore everything we say.

Well if that's all you have to say on the matter.

 

[Carnage27]

Yes, Rachni will help you in your quest.

Well.. Maybe.

Yup. They can possibly add a number to your other list of numbers.

 

[PWN3R]

Man, you're seriously setting yourself up for disappointment entertaining the Indoctrination theory. It's a cool read, and was comforting during the ending's initial shockwave, but there's no way Bioware (any company) would intentionally do something like this. No way.

People are quick to say,"But it's INTERACTIVE STORYTELLING, MAN! IT'S LIKE YOU'RE SHEPARD. BRILLIANT." It runs the risk of cutting off fans and money, and money is all that EA allows. No way it's real.

 

[Carnage27]

Much like DA II did not kill the DA series.

I actually loved DA II. Never knew people had a probalem with it until recently.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

Personally, I hold the company to a higher standard. They have never failed to put out an amazing story in the past for me. And everything they said about the Mass Effect series completely fell apart in those last 15 minutes for me. It's more than just a crappy ending. It's a crappy ending mixed with some arrogance mixed with trepidation on what the next move is.

This to me is the heigh of unfair, critical fan entitlement.

So because we have received a consistently solid effort, one slip up is more serious and worth being outraged about than the countless other devs who consistently undermine and take advantage of their fan base?

Hey man, Bioware earned my loyalty with ME 1, 2 and yes, even 3. I would forgive them a slip up because i know they are a solid and devoted developer. If this whole situation was the final straw or something, that would be different. But the reaction from people here just paints gamers in a terrible, terrible light. It's like "Yes, we'll accept your highly impressive games that are leaps and bounds above most other games of the same genre but waaaaaait a minute... THESE 15 MINUTES OF GAMPLAY RUIN EVERYTHING, FFFFFF UUUUUUU"

 

[Balthus Dire]

Didn't they comment the other day that they deliberately chose 'poloarising' endings? Isn't that them standing by the endings they chose?

I would say we lose nothing by moving on now. Nothing at all. You move on, accept things then what do you have to lose if they reveal something later? Nothing. Why waste energy on it now?

Most of all, this back and forth you guys have going over the theory now is just blatantly ridiculous. What is either side achieving at all?

The comment from Hudson was insanely vague; he mainly said that he wanted to create and ending that people would talk about. He also said that the resulting discussions were "polarizing" IIRC.

But, creating an ending with the "theory" in place would certainly get people talking, too. So, it could still go either way.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Man, you're seriously setting yourself up for disappointment entertaining the Indoctrination theory. It's a cool read, and was comforting during the ending's initial shockwave, but there's no way Bioware (any company) would intentionally do something like this. No way.

People are quick to say,"But it's INTERACTIVE STORYTELLING, MAN! IT'S LIKE YOU'RE SHEPARD. BRILLIANT." It runs the risk of cutting of fans and money, and money is all that EA allows. No way it's real.

I think its also a bad idea when only 50% of Xbox users use LIVE and only 50% of them buy DLC on average. I'm all for episodic and story content releases post-content but something like that being a fundamentally different and theoretically superior ending? That feels wrong.

 

[Benstamania]

I actually loved DA II. Never knew people had a probalem with it until recently.

I get all sorts of weird looks by openly defending it. I enjoyed the heck out of that game.