Mass Effect 3

[Matt]

In all this arguing, i haven't even really looked at their 'theories'. Im still in the middle of my Mass Effect trilogy replay so I'm gonna have to look at all these indoctrination ideas when i get to the 3rd game.

I dont care either way. I want more Mass Effect 3. Preferably DLC that continues my Shepard, so i guess that makes me pro indoctrination? My only gripe is, was this planned from the start? Did they make this game with the intention of giving us a false end only to release the real end via dlc? If so and if this is successful(lets not kid ourselves, it will be) how many companies follow suit? Am i gonna have to start paying for every real ending from now on?

That's my concern too. Anyone who thinks it is going to be free is fooling themselves. Unless this is the greatest patch of all time, EA, MS, and even Sony are going to have something to say about giving it away.

I don't believe it was the original plan. If they go that route, I think that they will claim it was always their plan, but I don't believe that any more than I believe Lucas saying he always intended for Greedo to shoot first and Vader to scream "NOOO!".

What I think it is, is the escape route from Bioware who has prided themselves on being the "cool," fan favorite developer. I think that they either ran out of time or changed the ending at the last minute due to the November leaks but never anticipated this backlash. So now they may be starting to see it as their plan B to reclaim their geek cred.

Spoiler

It does raise questions, but the current ending raises just as many lol.

I'd imagine if they go with indoctrination it would've began when Shep was knocked unconscious by Harbinger's beam. Harbinger knows he can't beat Shep physically; even bruised and broken, he always overcomes adversity. So, instead, he attacks the mind in hopes that in those final moments the Reapers will find success by dominating Shep's mind. Thus, everything else after Shep wakes up is a hallucination.

I really hope that's what Bioware goes with and it would completely redeem both the ending and the developer in my eyes. I'm also glad to see more and more people are realizing how cool the "theory" is.

Spoiler

But it still doesn't make sense. Harbinger can't kill Shepard? If Shepard is unconscious and laying in front of him, just shoot him with your giant effin laser! Hell, just step on him! Problem solved.

And the end result will be the same because the Prothean VI did not detect indoctrination (which means Shepard was not indoctrinated throughout the game) and the Codex (which seems to be the biggest evidence of indoctrination theorists) says very clearly that rapid indoctrination kills within a matter of days.

Bioware needs to come up with some GREAT answers for this to work. Because no matter how I spin this in my head, it makes the Reapers feel like the villains from a 70s James Bond movie who would rather kill Shepard, the biggest thorn in their side, in a slow moving, overly elaborate trap, than just shoot him.

I suppose one possibility is that the Illusive Man rebuilt Shepard from Reaper technology. Perhaps that is why they can't simply kill him. But if that is the case, why didn't the Prothean V.I. detect it?

Spoiler

One of the major problems is they'd need to do the Anderson/Illusive Man confrontation again.

And again I'm left worrying about all the people without Live (50% of Xbox users) who would essentially have the wrong ending on their hands.

But just my feeling from Hudson's comments is he made it sound as if they're going to stick with their ending but that they're going to simply focus on giving more answers and closure.

I dunno. I think Hudson is in full-on panic mode and if he sees indoctrination theory as a way out, he will use it.

These endings are like the Star Wars prequels. No matter how many bells and whistles are added on....a good portion of the fanbase will still hate them. And while that may not matter to EA (or George Lucas), I think that Casey Hudson genuinely does care about that

The endings, no matter how many text boxes we get or added cut scenes are still unfulfilling to a lot of players. We don't see any consequences, they are still all essentially the same. Finding out how the [blackout]crew wound up on the Normandy and crash landing[/blackout] doesn't change the bigger problem with them.

 

[Matt]

It's not a question of being 'cool'. It's a matter of how conveniently everything in the entire finale fits with the theory, so much so that it is difficult to imagine it all being just a mistake. I personally thought the whole 'indoctrination' idea was completely bogus and people reaching for conclusions, but as I observed things a bit more closely during my subsequent playthrough of the climax, even I can admit that something wasn't quite right with the way it all played out and no one can deny that.

I feel the same way, but I think it is less intentional and more is a result of Bioware cutting a lot of material from the ending (we know that they did, whether it was in response to the leak, to make things more uplifting or whatever is up for debate but it still happened) and them accidentally stumbling into a scenario where indoctrination theory is plausible.

 

[X Knight]

yeah, the more I read and see videos about the Indoctrination Theory, and the more I watch the endings, the more I'm buying into it.

The sad thing, though, is that if that was Bioware's intent all along, then it's ******* Brilliant!!! However, as it stands now, the endings are [BLACKOUT]incomplete.[/BLACKOUT] What will be even sadder is if they will charge us extra for DLC to [BLACKOUT]complete the ending.[/BLACKOUT]

That doesn't sit well with me.

And in regards to the Kid:

Spoiler

After watching some of the videos, I do think it's odd how the Kid behaves in the beginning.

The vent he's hiding in looks to be a high-voltage, electrified vent. Not exactly a safe place for a Kid to hide. Also, kids that age don't usually have a defeatist, "You can't save me" attitude.

Also, when the Kid is in front of the evac shuttle, NO ONE else interacts with him. Are you telling me that the soldiers ( or even other adults ) wouldn't grab that Kid and put him on the shuttle? And the Kid even climbs aboard the shuttle himself. Again, not one person lends him a hand, even the people standing inside the shuttle. That's very odd.

And, as one video pointed out, it is very odd that the Reapers would target those evac shuttles, including the one with the kid, and NOT the Normandy, which is a much bigger target, is in their line of sight, and holds the Reaper's nemesis Shepard. Again, very odd........

 

[Donut]

That's my concern too. Anyone who thinks it is going to be free is fooling themselves. Unless this is the greatest patch of all time, EA, MS, and even Sony are going to have something to say about giving it away.

I don't believe it was the original plan. If they go that route, I think that they will claim it was always their plan, but I don't believe that any more than I believe Lucas saying he always intended for Greedo to shoot first and Vader to scream "NOOO!".

What I think it is, is the escape route from Bioware who has prided themselves on being the "cool," fan favorite developer. I think that they either ran out of time or changed the ending at the last minute due to the November leaks but never anticipated this backlash. So now they may be starting to see it as their plan B to reclaim their geek cred.

Spoiler

But it still doesn't make sense. Harbinger can't kill Shepard? If Shepard is unconscious and laying in front of him, just shoot him with your giant effin laser! Hell, just step on him! Problem solved.

And the end result will be the same because the Prothean VI did not detect indoctrination (which means Shepard was not indoctrinated throughout the game) and the Codex (which seems to be the biggest evidence of indoctrination theorists) says very clearly that rapid indoctrination kills within a matter of days.

Bioware needs to come up with some GREAT answers for this to work. Because no matter how I spin this in my head, it makes the Reapers feel like the villains from a 70s James Bond movie who would rather kill Shepard, the biggest thorn in their side, in a slow moving, overly elaborate trap, than just shoot him.

I suppose one possibility is that the Illusive Man rebuilt Shepard from Reaper technology. Perhaps that is why they can't simply kill him. But if that is the case, why didn't the Prothean V.I. detect it?

I dunno. I think Hudson is in full-on panic mode and if he sees indoctrination theory as a way out, he will use it.

These endings are like the Star Wars prequels. No matter how many bells and whistles are added on....a good portion of the fanbase will still hate them. And while that may not matter to EA (or George Lucas), I think that Casey Hudson genuinely does care about that

The endings, no matter how many text boxes we get or added cut scenes are still unfulfilling to a lot of players. We don't see any consequences, they are still all essentially the same. Finding out how the [blackout]crew wound up on the Normandy and crash landing[/blackout] doesn't change the bigger problem with them.

To me no matter what Bioware does. There fan favorite / greek cred is gone. Changing the ending because it leaked & hoping fans would not complain is foolish & childish. I have no trust with Bioware after this. Especially if we have to pay for a "real ending" DLC. **** Bioware if we have to pay anymore for that. It makes me glad I went with the Standard Edition at least. I will give them some credit if that DLC ending is free. But if we pay then thats the end for me & Bioware

 

[X Knight]

guys, do you think the "last minute" addition of the Multi-player mode affected what happened with the endings in any way?

If I recall, it seemed the Multi-player mode was announced fairly late in the game's development. And I remember people wondering ( myself included ) if adding the MP would divert resources from the Single Player campaign.

do you think there's any relation?

 

[Matt]

To me no matter what Bioware does. There fan favorite / greek cred is gone. Changing the ending because it leaked & hoping fans would not complain is foolish & childish. I have no trust with Bioware after this. Especially if we have to pay for a "real ending" DLC. **** Bioware if we have to pay anymore for that. It makes me glad I went with the Standard Edition at least. I will give them some credit if that DLC ending is free. But if we pay then thats the end for me & Bioware

I can get not liking the ending of this particular game, but saying they've entirely lost credit over it is silly. Think of all the great games Bioware has made. To say that they are discredited because they dropped the ball on one part of one game (which is otherwise GOTY front runner) is silly.

As for paying to get the DLC...it is probably going to happen. It's not Bioware's fault. The developer will have no say in what EA does. That's just the way the industry is. I personally think that they should leave the ending alone for that very reason. Is it ambiguous? Sure. But you can elaborate in ME4 or any inevitable expansion of the I.P.. Add characters, add a "Take Back Omega," side quest, whatever. But to change the ending and charge....bad precedent that will forever change the video game industry if it is successful (and it will be).

guys, do you think the "last minute" addition of the Multi-player mode affected what happened with the endings in any way?

If I recall, it seemed the Multi-player mode was announced fairly late in the game's development. And I remember people wondering ( myself included ) if adding the MP would divert resources from the Single Player campaign.

do you think there's any relation?

I doubt that there is a correlation.

 

[X Knight]

^ yeah, there's probably no correlation, but I was just wondering about it.

 

[Benstamania]

Oddly, I'm enjoying my ME1 perfect run through more now than I did pre ME3 run through.

 

[Master Chief]

Spoiler

I suppose one possibility is that the Illusive Man rebuilt Shepard from Reaper technology. Perhaps that is why they can't simply kill him. But if that is the case, why didn't the Prothean V.I. detect it?

Spoiler

I was thinking about this more and the only answer I can offer up is that the Prothean VI isn't fool proof. If it were, VIs would have been the ultimate weapon against splinter agents. It says the reapers used a lot of them to their advantage in their cycle. If they were so easy to stop by putting a VI in the same room with them lol then well, yeah, the Protheans would have had a really big advantage.

btw, Shepard was dead once. He suffocated in space and fell through the atmosphere of a planet... lol, and he still came back to ruin their day. I don't think they wanna take any chances of Shepard coming back in any form, so you destroy his mind you destroy him COMPLETELY.

I'm left worrying about all the people without Live (50% of Xbox users)

guys, do you think the "last minute" addition of the Multi-player mode affected what happened with the endings in any way?

If I recall, it seemed the Multi-player mode was announced fairly late in the game's development. And I remember people wondering ( myself included ) if adding the MP would divert resources from the Single Player campaign.

do you think there's any relation?

Hahah could be. I think they just wanted fans to fill in the blanks so they could work on something to sell back to the fans. With all this talk of the series being co-created with the fans and how they're reading feedback and compiling it all in an excel sheet... yeah. If they sell it back to us Bioware has lost my trust completely.

 

[Benstamania]

That's going to extremes though. A price tag on any and all DLC isn't the choice of Bioware.. It's EA, Sony and Microsoft.

Regardless of what I think of the ending Bioware is still one of if not my favorite Dev Team. I'd be happy to pay for any DLC they have planned. If EA wants to give it to me for free.. Even better.

 

[Master Chief]

That's going to extremes though. A price tag on any and all DLC isn't the choice of Bioware.. It's EA, Sony and Microsoft.

Regardless of what I think of the ending Bioware is still one of if not my favorite Dev Team. I'd be happy to pay for any DLC they have planned. If EA wants to give it to me for free.. Even better.

If I could accept the ending as is I wouldn't mind them charging, but it's inexcusably bad if the theory wasn't their intention.

I think they're waiting until their tracking system lets them know a certain number of people have beat the game before announcing anything. I hope that's sometime this week.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

There's been 66 million Xbox's sold and there are roughly 30 million Live Accounts. Obviously I'm averaging here and it wouldn't be a strictly even split but that's still a good portion of the fanbase that would be **** outta luck on a "new" ending.

 

[Master Chief]

There's been 66 million Xbox's sold and there are roughly 30 million Live Accounts. Obviously I'm averaging here and it wouldn't be a strictly even split but that's still a good portion of the fanbase that would be **** outta luck on a "new" ending.

They didn't sell nearly enough copies for that to be a problem, that's why I was . There are some people who may not have internet coz they're living in a dorm or whatever but that's not even a concern nowadays. Plus you gotta remember the people playing on the PC/PS3.

 

[Benstamania]

Eh, buy Xbox Live.

 

[X Knight]

how would you feel if they released the "epilogue/ending" DLC as an Awakenings style expansion pack, that was comparable in length to DAO: Awakenings ( which was sold as a retail disc, too )?

 

[Master Chief]

Eh, buy Xbox Live.

You can sign up for free to download content. If they charge for it you can buy a points card. Plus I think new accounts get a month of Gold free so, cool.

how would you feel if they released the "epilogue/ending" DLC as an Awakenings style expansion pack, that was comparable in length to DAO: Awakenings ( which was sold as a retail disc, too )?

Eh, that would make the game look even worse lol coz it wouldn't feel like an expansion. It would feel like they sold an incomplete game. If it did have a substantial amount of gameplay to add though I wouldn't mind as much.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

They didn't sell nearly enough copies for that to be a problem, that's why I was . There are some people who may not have internet coz they're living in a dorm or whatever but that's not even a concern nowadays. Plus you gotta remember the people playing on the PC/PS3.

Heh, obviously I am not saying that there 66 million copies of ME3 out there but just moreso that a lot of people don't have live on their Xbox for whatever reason and I think with something like Mass Effect which is primarily still a single-player orientated franchise you can expect the average amount of users that are primarily just buying the disk expecting to have the actual ending on it to be fairly sizable.

I'm just using Live here since I've got more concrete numbers to look at.

I feel the same way, but I think it is less intentional and more is a result of Bioware cutting a lot of material from the ending (we know that they did, whether it was in response to the leak, to make things more uplifting or whatever is up for debate but it still happened) and them accidentally stumbling into a scenario where indoctrination theory is plausible.

Agreed, a lot of the "this is not right," stuff people point to just seems to be a result of the ending being chopped up.

 

[X Knight]

You can sign up for free to download content. If they charge for it you can buy a points card. Plus I think new accounts get a month of Gold free so, cool.



Eh, that would make the game look even worse lol coz it wouldn't feel like an expansion. It would feel like they sold an incomplete game. If it did have a substantial amount of gameplay to add though I wouldn't mind as much.

they kind of already did.........lol

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

I disagree with that, the ending is just not very good but the game is totally complete.

 

[iamlegend]

Spoiler

Meh, I just can't buy the indoctrination stuff.

It's a fun theory, but I honestly think it's fans reading a lot into what was ultimately a very chop-shop ending that Bioware forced together in the matter of days/weeks after the initial leak. They pulled some content, forced in some other content and rolled with it.

The original script, which can still be found in pieces online, did still very much have the A, B, C endings presented in the exact same fashion.

I think the entire child story line was just a poorly written attempt to give Shepard some sort of psychological depth and show how stressed out he was. Because Shepard is the player character, that's not easy to do. And that's why it failed. At one point Joker even makes mention that Shepard's stress level readings are at all time highs. At least he did in my play through.

Further, being that there's such a big indoctrination theory (and entirely fleshed out series of ideas) out there, I severely doubt Bioware will go with it... just because every avenue they could have gone has already been covered by fans. And they're not going to want to actually write an ending that was crafted by fans.

I honestly think if there's any ending DLC it'll largely just provide clarity and closure, rather than some sort of indoctrination theory re-write. Bioware wouldn't create a game that didn't have the "real" ending on the disc, even if the ending they DID have was confusing and controversial. The DLC will be "additional content," not necessary content.

 

[Harriet Tubman]

guys, do you think the "last minute" addition of the Multi-player mode affected what happened with the endings in any way?

If I recall, it seemed the Multi-player mode was announced fairly late in the game's development. And I remember people wondering ( myself included ) if adding the MP would divert resources from the Single Player campaign.

do you think there's any relation?

No, the multiplayer was developed by a different Bioware team.

Also, while MP was announced late in the dev cycle, it was rumored for ages. This seems to be one of the cases in which the rumors were real.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

Meh, I just can't buy the indoctrination stuff.

It's a fun theory, but I honestly think it's fans reading a lot into what was ultimately a very chop-shop ending that Bioware forced together in the matter of days/weeks after the initial leak. They pulled some content, forced in some other content and rolled with it.

The original script, which can still be found in pieces online, did still very much have the A, B, C endings presented in the exact same fashion.

I think the entire child story line was just a poorly written attempt to give Shepard some sort of psychological depth and show how stressed out he was. Because Shepard is the player character, that's not easy to do. And that's why it failed. At one point Joker even makes mention that Shepard's stress level readings are at all time highs. At least he did in my play through.

Further, being that there's such a big indoctrination theory (and entirely fleshed out series of ideas) out there, I severely doubt Bioware will go with it... just because every avenue they could have gone has already been covered by fans. And they're not going to want to actually write an ending that was crafted by fans.

I honestly think if there's any ending DLC it'll largely just provide clarity and closure, rather than some sort of indoctrination theory re-write. Bioware wouldn't create a game that didn't have the "real" ending on the disc, even if the ending they DID have was confusing and controversial. The DLC will be "additional content," not necessary content.

I feel like your sig is very appropriate at the moment.

 

[Harriet Tubman]

Spoiler

Meh, I just can't buy the indoctrination stuff.

It's a fun theory, but I honestly think it's fans reading a lot into what was ultimately a very chop-shop ending that Bioware forced together in the matter of days/weeks after the initial leak. They pulled some content, forced in some other content and rolled with it.

The original script, which can still be found in pieces online, did still very much have the A, B, C endings presented in the exact same fashion.

I think the entire child story line was just a poorly written attempt to give Shepard some sort of psychological depth and show how stressed out he was. Because Shepard is the player character, that's not easy to do. And that's why it failed. At one point Joker even makes mention that Shepard's stress level readings are at all time highs. At least he did in my play through.

Further, being that there's such a big indoctrination theory (and entirely fleshed out series of ideas) out there, I severely doubt Bioware will go with it... just because every avenue they could have gone has already been covered by fans. And they're not going to want to actually write an ending that was crafted by fans.

I honestly think if there's any ending DLC it'll largely just provide clarity and closure, rather than some sort of indoctrination theory re-write. Bioware wouldn't create a game that didn't have the "real" ending on the disc, even if the ending they DID have was confusing and controversial. The DLC will be "additional content," not necessary content.

There are some holes, sure, but like Matt said, the hardcore Bioware fans have given Bioware an out. Even if BW didn't have this planned from the start, they can very easily make a DLC ending that follows the fan theories, then come out and say "WE PLANNED THIS FROM THE START", even though they likely didn't. Its a win-win situation for them. They can fill in holes like [BLACKOUT]rapid indoctrination by saying that Shepard won't die from rapid indoctrination due to Reaper tech that Cerberus used to bring him back to life in ME2.[/BLACKOUT]

They can also say that the current endings aren't necessarily the wrong endings, as if YOU were [BLACKOUT]indoctrinated, you would have made those choices anyways. Silly that BW, in this case, wouldn't let two of the endings continue on, but hell, they made it to where Shepard could die in ME2 and not play ME3, forcing someone to replay ME2 to get to ME3. [/BLACKOUT]

 

[Matt]

Spoiler

Meh, I just can't buy the indoctrination stuff.

It's a fun theory, but I honestly think it's fans reading a lot into what was ultimately a very chop-shop ending that Bioware forced together in the matter of days/weeks after the initial leak. They pulled some content, forced in some other content and rolled with it.

The original script, which can still be found in pieces online, did still very much have the A, B, C endings presented in the exact same fashion.

I think the entire child story line was just a poorly written attempt to give Shepard some sort of psychological depth and show how stressed out he was. Because Shepard is the player character, that's not easy to do. And that's why it failed. At one point Joker even makes mention that Shepard's stress level readings are at all time highs. At least he did in my play through.

Further, being that there's such a big indoctrination theory (and entirely fleshed out series of ideas) out there, I severely doubt Bioware will go with it... just because every avenue they could have gone has already been covered by fans. And they're not going to want to actually write an ending that was crafted by fans.

I honestly think if there's any ending DLC it'll largely just provide clarity and closure, rather than some sort of indoctrination theory re-write. Bioware wouldn't create a game that didn't have the "real" ending on the disc, even if the ending they DID have was confusing and controversial. The DLC will be "additional content," not necessary content.

I get that you want to defend Bioware, Legend....I was right there beside you earlier in the week. But the more I think about the endings, the more that I agree that there is SOMETHING going on with that ending.

Spoiler

The way the edges of the screen blackout while the Illusive Man is talking, the slow-mo, IM's sudden biotic powers, etc. Clearly something else is at play.

Even if you consider Shepard waking up in the "perfect," ending...how exactly does he do that? Shepard is in the middle of a space stations hundreds of miles above Earth and that entire space station just blew up with him on it. There is NO logical way to survive that (not even by ME standards). SOMETHING is going on.

I think it is naive to write off some of the other worldly (for lack of better wording) elements of the ending or indoctrination theory at this point.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Spoiler

Well, technically, the arms blew off the Citadel and Shep was right in the center, somewhere under the Presidium's tower. So he might logically have been protected from the really dangerous explosions.