Mass Effect 3

[Balthus Dire]

No offense to anyone, but I can't understand how "more" endings could possibly be conceived as a bad thing. Even if you like the bittersweet nature of the ending we got, would you really be disappointed if there were more options??

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

But the tone ought not be pre-determined. Again, look at Alpha Protocol. I can have the happy ending, the bitter sweet ending (Thorton saves the world but dies or loses his allies in the process), the dark ending (Thorton becomes the terrorist) and just about anything in between. The tone can vary from player to player without sacrificing any artistic integrity. It doesn't have to be any individual tone. It didn't have to be all or nothing. That certainly was not what we were promised.

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't have been varying degrees of happy/sad, but if BW simply did not want a Shepard rides off into the sunset ending with LI then I think as creators they have the write to do so. As video games mature as a story telling medium the notion that it has to absolutely end with a You Are Winner screen is a little silly I think, especially something as narrative-ly driven as ME

Their obligation however as RPG makers is to create an ending that reflects the choices/decisions of any given player, the endings as is do not do this and violate the contact between developer/player.

 

[Fenrir]

And a bittersweet ending should be A option. Not the only option. Not when we've spent years being told we can build the ending to OUR story. It shouldn't be up to Hudson, or Bioware or you or anyone else to determine when MY ending should be. Not with as much as we were told it is our ending and our story. All that Bioware should've done was provide us with the tools to craft our ending. Not decide it for us.

But what's the point of having the option of a bittersweet ending if you can achieve a much better, more 'perfect' ending to begin with? Why would anyone choose to suffer losses if they can avoid it? You should be able to build your ending, sure, but you should not be able to have complete control of all events that transpire. That is how you feel the consequences of your choices and their weight upon you. The game would have been a lot less interesting if there was a paragon charm or renegade intimidate way out of every single situation because then the focus would have shifted to simply racking up enough paragon/renegade/reputation points to make all the 'right' choices. If you have an emotional investment in the story and the characters, then it is the moments of loss and sacrifice rather than those of victory and triumph that are the most memorable and stick with you.

I mean just listen to the score and it will immediately become apparent that no one was coming out unscathed from this one in the end. The game constantly foretells Shepard's inevitable end as it gives you chances to bond with friends and say your farewells. People should have seen the bittersweet ending coming from a mile away.

 

[Matt]

I allowed Kasumi, Jack and Zaeed in ME2 despite being able to keep them alive because it fit my ending better. It should be our story to build. Just like Hudson told us, time after time.

And there are other ways to show sacrifice/give actions consequences than an obligatory "bittersweet," ending.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

I dont really think they need to add any more endings. I think they just need to continue and make sense of the ones we did get.

 

[zenith16]

I agree with Matt. Not just because he stated alpha protocol which i've mention my self also .(in case some one else here has for gotten) or the fact about having a happen ending. which is not the case of what matt's stating here at all. It's the fact of the perfect ending of your chose that bioware was pushing. And when bioware was pushing that freaking statement it can mean different thing's to different people.

And they said that we'd all have different ending from each other cause of our choosing so . this what matt's saying with the examples of alpha protocol. this is the point he's trying to get across.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

ME is not Alpha Protocol, simply because one game does something does not mean they all have to do the same thing.

 

[Matt]

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't have been varying degrees of happy/sad, but if BW simply did not want a Shepard rides off into the sunset ending with LI then I think as creators they have the write to do so. As video games mature as a story telling medium the notion that it has to absolutely end with a You Are Winner screen is a little silly I think, especially something as narrative-ly driven as ME

Their obligation however as RPG makers is to create an ending that reflects the choices/decisions of any given player, the endings as is do not do this and violate the contact between developer/player.

But you're missing one very important point. Hudson told us the ending was ours to build COUNTLESS times. If I want Shepard to ride off into the sunset with Ash, why can't I have that? What is it to you? If this is our story to build (as Hudson and other BW officials have said), why can't I have the ending that I want? Who are you to tell me it is wrong?

 

[Matt]

ME is not Alpha Protocol, simply because one game does something does not mean they all have to do the same thing.

BUT AGAIN, WE WERE ****ING PROMISED IT! Why is that so hard to comprehend? Are you that desperate to defend the ending? No one is saying that ME should be Alpha Protocol. We're using Alpha Protocol as an example of how the promises Hudson made are very possible and were executed perfectly in a game that came out three years earlier.

 

[zenith16]

ME is not Alpha Protocol, simply because one game does something does not mean they all have to do the same thing.

this isn't about alpha protocol per se. it's about having the ending of our choosing. Alpha protocol is being used/ brought up as an example and in that alone.

But this is about bioware' s freaking statement of chose and doing things of our choosing and getting results from those said chose's reflecting those actions. we shouldn't all have that same type of ending.

 

[Fenrir]

But you're missing one very important point. Hudson told us the ending was ours to build COUNTLESS times. If I want Shepard to ride off into the sunset with Ash, why can't I have that? What is it to you? If this is our story to build (as Hudson and other BW officials have said), why can't I have the ending that I want? Who are you to tell me it is wrong?

I think the disconnect here is gamers misunderstanding that player involvement in the outcomes of the story equates complete control over the outcomes of the story. Sure, players can decide how to tell their own stories, but it was always going to be within the storyline parameters established by Bioware and only with a certain degree of freedom.

 

[zenith16]

the problem actually is what they put out to the public to make fan's think that way , with certain statements from the get go. if they didn't do that this would not have happened at all.

 

[Soapy]

But what's the point of having the option of a bittersweet ending if you can achieve a much better, more 'perfect' ending to begin with?

Because games like this aren't about doing everything "right" to get the "good" ending. It's about making decisions, and then having the game react to them. Choice and consequence, that's what this franchise was founded upon. If I make bad decisions that probably should have got the entire galaxy killed, I want to see the outcome of that. If I made all the right calls and played perfectly, I want to see the outcome of that as well. Not get railroaded into three nearly identical "bittersweet" endings.

 

[Matt]

I think the disconnect here is gamers misunderstanding that player involvement in the outcomes of the story equates complete control over the outcomes of the story. Sure, players can decide how to tell their own stories, but it was always going to be only within the storyline parameters established by Bioware and only with a certain degree of freedom.

And Alpha Protocol showed us how it can work within the story parameters while also giving players all kinds of choices. Not to mention, there is no way to take things like "This is the player's story to write as much as ours," or "There will be no choose A,B, or C ending," out of context.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Wont the endings basically mean squat come ME4? I mean we all got the same endings last go round. We all stopped saren. We all stopped the collectors. They're gonna have to make something canon in order to continue. They can't move on if the reapers win. The reapers have to lose for there to be another game right?

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

But you're missing one very important point. Hudson told us the ending was ours to build COUNTLESS times. If I want Shepard to ride off into the sunset with Ash, why can't I have that? What is it to you? If this is our story to build (as Hudson and other BW officials have said), why can't I have the ending that I want? Who are you to tell me it is wrong?

We know as gamers that RPG's and Bioware games specifically give us the illusion of control. When its done right it is a smooth seamless experience.

For example, why was I forced to deal with the Krogan or the Geth? Why couldn't I successfully argue to Hackett that we should launch the attack at once? Because the game sells us successfully on the necessity of doing those things.

It was the team's job to sell us on the necessity of a bittersweet ending, to present the final conflict as something that was ultimately inescapable without a grave sacrifice. They didn't do that successfully nor did they provide the necessary closure so the attempt failed on pretty much every level.

But to say that NO you CANNOT have a bittersweet ending? Game developers are not ALLOWED to do so?

Its creation by committee and that does not bold well for the future of video games as a legitimate medium that can explore themes like death and loss and carry them through while incorporating an interactive audience.

I mean just listen to the score and it will immediately become apparent that no one was coming out unscathed from this one in the end. The game constantly foretells Shepard's inevitable end as it gives you chances to bond with friends and say your farewells. People should have seen the bittersweet ending coming from a mile away.

The repeated arc words are "You can't save everyone," the ending absolutely should be one of sacrifice and loss.

 

[Master Chief]

Wont the endings basically mean squat come ME4? I mean we all got the same endings last go round. We all stopped saren. We all stopped the collectors. They're gonna have to make something canon in order to continue. They can't move on if the reapers win. The reapers have to lose for there to be another game right?

They said any other games they're going to do won't take place after ME3.

 

[Soapy]

Wont the endings basically mean squat come ME4? I mean we all got the same endings last go round. We all stopped saren. We all stopped the collectors. They're gonna have to make something canon in order to continue. They can't move on if the reapers win. The reapers have to lose for there to be another game right?

The funny thing about that is previously Bioware totally said that there would be a "Reapers win" ending.* They also said that the ending can play out in "wildly different ways".

*If the indoctrination theory is true, then I guess they weren't lying about that one.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

They said any other games they're going to do won't take place after ME3.

Ah, so before then?

 

[Matt]

Wont the endings basically mean squat come ME4? I mean we all got the same endings last go round. We all stopped saren. We all stopped the collectors. They're gonna have to make something canon in order to continue. They can't move on if the reapers win. The reapers have to lose for there to be another game right?

I think that is one of the biggest problems. Forcing players into a "defeat the Reapers," ending is one thing and making those that are not non-canonical is fine (they did it to players who had Shepard die in ME2). But with this....two of these endings change the galaxy in a pretty profound way. One of them [blackout]makes every life form part robotic and the other kills an entire race.[/blackout] Really no way to just move past that.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

The funny thing about that is previously Bioware totally said that there would be a "Reapers win" ending.* They also said that the ending can play out in "wildly different ways".

*If the indoctrination theory is true, then I guess they weren't lying about that one.

Yea, now i do remember them saying that. Hm.

 

[Fenrir]

Because games like this aren't about doing everything "right" to get the "good" ending. It's about making decisions, and then having the game react to them. Choice and consequence, that's what this franchise was founded upon. If I make bad decisions that probably should have got the entire galaxy killed, I want to see the outcome of that. If I made all the right calls and played perfectly, I want to see the outcome of that as well. Not get railroaded into three nearly identical "bittersweet" endings.

I am not defending the endings as they are. I am defending Bioware's choice to have a bittersweet conclusion to the franchise. There is a clear difference. As I mentioned in a previous post, player involvement in the story does not mean complete control over the story. Just because players can build their story based on the choices they are given does not mean that the storytellers have no say in which direction your story leads to, even after accounting for the decisions you have made.

 

[Master Chief]

Ah, so before then?

I think Hudson or someone else said during or before, yeah. Then again they obviously don't mind going against their word lmao.

 

[X Knight]

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think
one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are
optimal for different people"

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as
much as we are anyway.”


“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How
could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and
then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t
say any more than that…”

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the
architect of what happens."

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being
brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they
got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was
because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you
didn't make”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”
Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with
the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”

These quotes straight from the devs' mouths speak for themselves..........

 

[Matt]

We know as gamers that RPG's and Bioware games specifically give us the illusion of control. When its done right it is a smooth seamless experience.

For example, why was I forced to deal with the Krogan or the Geth? Why couldn't I successfully argue to Hackett that we should launch the attack at once? Because the game sells us successfully on the necessity of doing those things.

It was the team's job to sell us on the necessity of a bittersweet ending, to present the final conflict as something that was ultimately inescapable without a grave sacrifice. They didn't do that successfully nor did they provide the necessary closure so the attempt failed on pretty much every level.

But to say that NO you CANNOT have a bittersweet ending? Its creation by committee and that does not bold well for the future of video games as a legitimate medium that can explore themes like death and loss and carry them through while incorporating an interactive audience.



The repeated arc words are "You can't save everyone," the ending absolutely should be one of sacrifice and loss.

I give up. I leave you with this. The ending should have been what we made it. Just like we were promised. Not "one of sacrifice and loss." If that works for you, great. I shouldn't have YOUR ending forced on me and neither should anyone else.

They said any other games they're going to do won't take place after ME3.

When was this? I've seen them say that they intend to expand the universe past ME3 many times.