MCU Fight: Thor Vs. Captain Marvel

[THORin]

2) Given what he did for Thor, if Taika Watiti had directed CM it would have been the MCU's greatest film easily.

Have to respectfully disagree: what Taika did with Ragnarok is worthy of much praise, and it works for that story, but I like what Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck did with CM just as much - and, honestly, more. No offense at all to Thor: Ragnarok - that is a wonderful movie, and it has its own distinct style. But so does CM: it’s an indie drama, and that’s what I love about it. I don’t agree with the idea that one director should direct more than one franchise in the MCU: Taika has his techno style, and that works for the Thor franchise. Boden and Fleck have their indie style, and I think it works for CM, and I hope the franchise continues in that style. But, that’s just my opinion. I just like each Marvel franchise to each have their own separate styles.

 

[Batmannerism]

Have to respectfully disagree: what Taika did with Ragnarok is worthy of much praise, and it works for that story, but I like what Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck did with CM just as much - and, honestly, more. No offense at all to Thor: Ragnarok - that is a wonderful movie, and it has its own distinct style. But so does CM: it’s an indie drama, and that’s what I love about it. I don’t agree with the idea that one director should direct more than one franchise in the MCU: Taika has his techno style, and that works for the Thor franchise. Boden and Fleck have their indie style, and I think it works for CM, and I hope the franchise continues in that style. But, that’s just my opinion. I just like each Marvel franchise to each have their own separate styles.

Then disagree we must. IMO Taika would have injected a lot of much needed fun into CM and done a better job of making the action sequences spectacular. I felt that CM was a film lacking a sense of joy, as if everyone except Ben Mendelson and SLJ were trying a bit too hard. Tessa Thompson was a much more interesting and likeable character in Ragnarok as a subordinate protagonist than Carol was in a film where she was the main character - and she was a tough, abrasive alcoholic with survivor's guilt issues, who also managed to be enormous fun and a total badass.

Respectfully a movie named Captain Marvel which is about a superhero who's caught up in a intergalactic war with cosmic powers is not really indie drama material. And even if it was, Taika does indie comedy better than most.

Taika would have elevated this film - but again, we must agree to disagree on this.

 

[THORin]

Then disagree we must. IMO Taika would have injected a lot of much needed fun into CM and done a better job of making the action sequences spectacular. I felt that CM was a film lacking a sense of joy, as if everyone except Ben Mendelson and SLJ were trying a bit too hard. Tessa Thompson was a much more interesting and likeable character in Ragnarok as a subordinate protagonist than Carol was in a film where she was the main character - and she was a tough, abrasive alcoholic with survivor's guilt issues, who also managed to be enormous fun and a total badass.

Respectfully a movie named Captain Marvel which is about a superhero who's caught up in a intergalactic war with cosmic powers is not really indie drama material. And even if it was, Taika does indie comedy better than most.

Taika would have elevated this film - but again, we must agree to disagree on this.

I felt that Boden and Fleck nevertheless managed to make CM an indie drama: there is a tone that’s set up about midway through the film, once you get past the initial stuff in space, once you get (literally) down to earth, when the story becomes, for me, so sweet and poignant, like nothing Taika Waititi ever did in Thor: Ragnarok, and it stays that way until the end of the film. I love Ragnarok, don’t get me wrong, but I find that Marvel films often tread a fine line with going overboard with humor - and humor, obviously, is fine, but I don’t want to see just any film that deals with potentially silly material just embrace the silliness - unless it’s a Thor film, where such a take on the material was needed. CM, in my opinion, managed to take potentially silly material and make it dramatic - for me. Indie drama is just something I like, and, as I said, I like each MCU franchise to have its own distinct vibe: Taika does indie comedy definitely better than most. Boden and Fleck, IMO, do indie drama better than Taika: now, let me add, I’ve not seen anything else by Taika, so I can’t say for certain about that - but just from the Marvel films, which are what’s relevant to this conversation, then Boden and Fleck do the indie drama better. I thought the film was very fun without needing Taika’s distinctive style of comedy.
But, the whole thing is subjective! That’s the real fun of discussing films, after all.

 

[BigThor]

Captain Marvel spent wayyyyy too much time on Earth imo, her whole niche' is being a cosmic superhero.

Still a good film though, btw this battle has more votes than any other battle in the last several months.

 

[Stormborn]

I wouldn't put Captain Marvel in the same league as Ragnarok. It doesn't have Taika's comedic brilliance or ensemble of A listers playing awesome cosmic characters, the spectacle/choreography never quite hits the same level and in terms of pure comic book awesomeness it's very hard to compete with a film that mixes Planet Hulk with the Simonson/Kirby era Thor comics.

To be fair, I'd say Captain Marvel's on par with Thor 1 and better than Thor: The Dark World. I liked their take on Mar-Vell, how they used the Rambeau's as Carol's family and the twist with the Skrulls. They did a respectable job given the comic character they're working with has a messy origin story and doesn't have many great solo stories to adapt. On the other hand:

• Like a lot of origin stories, the pacing's a little slow and we go most of the film without seeing Carol's full powers.
• Amnesia's a very tired/cliched plot device.
• Yon Rogg, the Supreme Intelligence and the Kree in general just aren't interesting villains. Their motive never gets more complex than "we're fascist aliens who hate anything we can't control".
• Setting it mostly on earth was a little mundane
• They went overboard with the 90s music
• Carol's not a very interesting character until she gets over her amnesia. Fury kind of stole the show at points (a bit like Loki in the first two Thor films)
• I wish we'd seen more of Phil Coulson
• They gave us a really disappointing answer to how Fury lost his eye.
• We never got a solid answer for why Carol isn't called back to Earth in previous films

 

[THORin]

I wouldn't put Captain Marvel in the same league as Ragnarok. It doesn't have Taika's comedic brilliance or ensemble of A listers playing awesome cosmic characters, the spectacle/choreography never quite hits the same level and in terms of pure comic book awesomeness it's very hard to compete with a film that mixes Planet Hulk with the Simonson/Kirby era Thor comics.

To be fair, I'd say Captain Marvel's on par with Thor 1 and better than Thor: The Dark World. I liked their take on Mar-Vell, how they used the Rambeau's as Carol's family and the twist with the Skrulls. They did a respectable job given the comic character they're working with has a messy origin story and doesn't have many great solo stories to adapt. On the other hand:

• Like a lot of origin stories, the pacing's a little slow and we go most of the film without seeing Carol's full powers.
• Amnesia's a very tired/cliched plot device.
• Yon Rogg, the Supreme Intelligence and the Kree in general just aren't interesting villains. Their motive never gets more complex than "we're fascist aliens who hate anything we can't control".
• Setting it mostly on earth was a little mundane
• They went overboard with the 90s music
• Carol's not a very interesting character until she gets over her amnesia. Fury kind of stole the show at points (a bit like Loki in the first two Thor films)
• I wish we'd seen more of Phil Coulson
• They gave us a really disappointing answer to how Fury lost his eye.
• We never got a solid answer for why Carol isn't called back to Earth in previous films

See, for me, what you call “mundane” is the real heart and soul of the film. I know a lot of people wish that all comic book movies could feature “comedic brilliance”, “awesome cosmic characters”, and “pure comic book awesomeness”, but not me. The more grounded approach worked for me.

 

[BigThor]

See, for me, what you call “mundane” is the real heart and soul of the film. I know a lot of people wish that all comic book movies could feature “comedic brilliance”, “awesome cosmic characters”, and “pure comic book awesomeness”, but not me. The more grounded approach worked for me.

I only want movies about actual awesome cosmic characters to be cosmic not all comicbook movies.

You know it's like Captain Marvel's "thing", she's not Spider-Man.

 

[flickchick85]

You know it's like Captain Marvel's "thing", she's not Spider-Man.

She's not Green Lantern, either. While I prefer her cosmic stories, she's had a ton of Earthbound adventures. I think the movie did a great job juggling both, as she's sort of a "bridge" character between the two.

 

[Shuri]

Lots of fanboys in denial. It's ok, Lord Feige will continue to set y'all straight over the next few years.

They don't want to accept it. I can't wait for endgame to see what the Russos will do with her.

Captain Marvel spent wayyyyy too much time on Earth imo, her whole niche' is being a cosmic superhero.

Still a good film though, btw this battle has more votes than any other battle in the last several months.

The movie was about Carol discovering her humanity, so its justified. I expect her to spend more time in space going forward.

I don't think its fair to compare CM to Ragnarok. Being an origin film limits it potentials. Some of the best SH movies were sequels, so I expect the sequel to be a lot better. The directors did a good job and I have no objections if they come back.

 

[Shuri]

See, for me, what you call “mundane” is the real heart and soul of the film. I know a lot of people wish that all comic book movies could feature “comedic brilliance”, “awesome cosmic characters”, and “pure comic book awesomeness”, but not me. The more grounded approach worked for me.

I love both. Anyone works for me, as far as it fits the character and the vision the director is going for. I actually think both could work for Captain Marvel.

 

[THORin]

I love both. Anyone works for me, as far as it fits the character and the vision the director is going for. I actually think both could work for Captain Marvel.

I love both too, but I found myself really liking the tone of CM: it was nostalgic and sweet (almost bittersweet even), and there was this profound sense of loss and sadness I got from the film. The way that, for instance

Spoiler

Carol’s disappearance was covered up by the government so Maria had no idea if she was even dead or alive, or the scene where Carol watched her mentor die in front of her, or when she talked to Maria and still couldn’t remember her. The sadness was fitting for the subject material, IMO. If it had been funnier, I think a lot would have been lost.

 

[Batmannerism]

I wouldn't put Captain Marvel in the same league as Ragnarok. It doesn't have Taika's comedic brilliance or ensemble of A listers playing awesome cosmic characters, the spectacle/choreography never quite hits the same level and in terms of pure comic book awesomeness it's very hard to compete with a film that mixes Planet Hulk with the Simonson/Kirby era Thor comics.

To be fair, I'd say Captain Marvel's on par with Thor 1 and better than Thor: The Dark World. I liked their take on Mar-Vell, how they used the Rambeau's as Carol's family and the twist with the Skrulls. They did a respectable job given the comic character they're working with has a messy origin story and doesn't have many great solo stories to adapt. On the other hand:

• Like a lot of origin stories, the pacing's a little slow and we go most of the film without seeing Carol's full powers.
• Amnesia's a very tired/cliched plot device.
• Yon Rogg, the Supreme Intelligence and the Kree in general just aren't interesting villains. Their motive never gets more complex than "we're fascist aliens who hate anything we can't control".
• Setting it mostly on earth was a little mundane
• Carol's not a very interesting character until she gets over her amnesia. Fury kind of stole the show at points (a bit like Loki in the first two Thor films).
• They gave us a really disappointing answer to how Fury lost his eye.

This is of course all IMO but here goes.

First, the amnesia / everything you think you know is a lie plot is a total cliche but works brilliantly when it's well done. Like so many things in this movie it was handled with all the grace of a sledgehammer, the bit where Carol shouts " Everything I know is a lie!" made me want to laugh.
What she should of shouted was "Here's some more clumsily handled exposition because the directors clearly don't respect the audience.!"

Second, seeing a character's full powers only emerge at the climax of a film is also a massive cliche ( Ragnarok, Aquaman, Wonder Woman etc.) but again when handled right can lead to a real "**** yeah !" moment. IMO CM almost did that, but not quite.

Third. I thought Jude Law was great and believable as a Kree fanatic/motivational speaker. We don't really need to know much about his backstory, he just is who he is. That he killed Marvell was a nice touch ( although in that sequence what would have made a lot more sense was for Marvel to be relatively uninjured as she's a super tough Kree, and get killed while giving Carol a blood transfusion to save her life - rather than Yon-Rogg ).
Annette Benning was great although underused as Marvell but very bland as the Supreme Intelligence - not a great villain, Dormammu, who is essentially a giant cgi monster manages to be much more menacing with about the same amount of screen time.

Fourth - I'll deal with the issue of "the mundane" below the next quote.

Fifth, I don't know how they did it but somehow Carol wasn't anywhere near as interesting as she should have been. Here's a woman who's been overcome all sorts of stuff and is an air force officer, she's got a good backstory. But other than her karaoke flash backs that didn't make much of an impression. It's like a lot of the things in this film, it almost worked but didn't

Sixth, Fury's eye...... sometimes subverting the audience's expectations really works...and sometimes it doesn't. This time it didn't, and was a big disappointment, given how he set it up in Cap TWS.

See, for me, what you call “mundane” is the real heart and soul of the film. I know a lot of people wish that all comic book movies could feature “comedic brilliance”, “awesome cosmic characters”, and “pure comic book awesomeness”, but not me. The more grounded approach worked for me.

Something that the MCU has done masterfully is blended the mundane with the fantastic ( i.e. pure comic book awesomeness) in most of their films. Dr Strange blends the reality of being a surgeon with the trippy fantasy magic elements and makes them work.

In Age of Ultron, the gang visit Hawkeye's farm, about as mundane as you get but it works. On that note Man of Steel - for all it's faults blends the everyday scenes of rural America beautifully into the film and the establishing shots of Kansas and the farm are indeed visually beautiful.

TWS blends the ordinary life of Cap ( he has an apartment with books and a stereo, he visits his old girlfriend) into a story about a super soldier who tackles a secret society of ex-nazi megalomaniacs.

The mundane really works in superhero films because it creates a contrast and makes the characters more relatable......usually.

Wonder Woman and Thor are the opposite because they haven't got a shred of the mundane in them, but smart writers/directors put them in mundane circumstance, usually for comedic effect or to highlight , in WW's case, how messed up our mundane world is. It works.
( as an aside another trope is the "world behind the world" take on the mundane, as a veneer beneath which magic/aliens etc exist)

Having said all that the mundane elements of CM were really important - but to me they felt like most of the character development in the film, very forced and lacking any subtlety. If they had got that right it would have added another dimension to Carol that we could have latched onto. However, Carol's old life was glossed over so quickly and in such a forced way ( we see her memories because the Skrull are probing her mind to find a specific memory) that I just didn't care.

Carol's best friend was a very good character and a great foil.....but Carol herself was just so stiff and lacking warmth or humour. And it's not a female thing because the MCU has done good things with Wasp, Valkyrie and Scarlet Witch - hell, Jessica Jones. Somehow the characterisation of CM is wrong or the direction is wrong so I just didn't care about her that much.

I feel like Taika Waititi could have injected more life into the character and made her more engaging.

On a side note I found her relationship with child Monica started out well, but got a bit weird....when the kid encourages her mom to leave her alone and go off on a very risky mission, from which she might not come back, just to help Carol came across as very odd - I thought it might have been one if the Skrulls pretending to be the little girl. It just felt so forced, like a child actor reading an adult actor's lines.

And to stop this turning into a CM-audienxe review thread.....Thor still wins.

 

[Shuri]

I love both too, but I found myself really liking the tone of CM: it was nostalgic and sweet (almost bittersweet even), and there was this profound sense of loss and sadness I got from the film. The way that, for instance

Spoiler

Carol’s disappearance was covered up by the government so Maria had no idea if she even dead or alive, or the scene where Carol watched her mentor die in front of her, or when she talked to Maria and still couldn’t remember her. The sadness was fitting for the subject material, IMO. If it had been funnier, I think a lot would have been lost.

Agreed. The tone of the movie was a perfect fit for the story they were telling. Some people complained about Carol not being as fun and sass as she was in the comics. I want to see that Carol in the future, but it wouldn't have made any sense for the Carol we got in CM to be cracking jokes since she was trying to discover who she was.

 

[flickchick85]

I found Carol to feel more like a real person and relatable in one movie than BW, Wasp, SW and Valkyrie have in their various appearances, so I can't agree that she was lacking in characterization AT ALL.

 

[BigThor]

I found Carol to feel more like a real person and relatable in one movie than BW, Wasp, SW and Valkyrie have in their various appearances, so I can't agree that she was lacking in characterization AT ALL.

I agree, that was one of my favorite things about the movie I actually prefer MCU Carol's characterization to the comics and Avengers cartoons.

 

[BigThor]

The movie was about Carol discovering her humanity, so its justified. I expect her to spend more time in space going forward.

I don't think its fair to compare CM to Ragnarok. Being an origin film limits it potentials. Some of the best SH movies were sequels, so I expect the sequel to be a lot better. The directors did a good job and I have no objections if they come back.

I understand that, but 80% of the movie didn't have to take place on earth, I would've preferred atleast 50/50 and I never compared it to Ragnarok that was a different poster.

She's not Green Lantern, either. While I prefer her cosmic stories, she's had a ton of Earthbound adventures. I think the movie did a great job juggling both, as she's sort of a "bridge" character between the two.

I said she spent way too much time on earth, not "she doesn't ever need to be on earth" you all are over exaggerating my words.

 

[Shuri]

I understand that, but 80% of the movie didn't have to take place on earth, I would've preferred atleast 50/50 and I never compared it to Ragnarok that was a different poster.

It felt like 50/50 to me.

I know you didn't. I just lumped everything together.

 

[Stormborn]

Lots of fanboys in denial. It's ok, Lord Feige will continue to set y'all straight over the next few years.

They don't want to accept it. I can't wait for endgame to see what the Russos will do with her.

So anyone who argues Thor has better feats is a 'fanboy in denial'? Seems a bit of a double standard given you two are obviously big Captain Marvel fans.

I'm very obviously a big Thor fan but I'm also excited to see Carol, Hulk, Strange etc get great feats and give us some awesome spectacle in future films and if that brings them closer to Thor's level when it comes to feats then no worries.

My man Thor welcomes other OP heroes:

She dimmed the power from the ship, she drained the power lines behind her on Earth, stood there and absorbed the straight-up power blast SI was dealing her (feeding her), AND she did it again when the blasts from the ships hit her and she fired a bigger blast back. Hardly flimsy. And considering it's her BASE power from the comics, I see zero reason to doubt that's what was intended by what was shown.

Eh, that still seems like weak evidence to me. For all we know it was the Supreme Intelligence drawing power from the ship, the battle with the SI was inside a simulation so that's kind of moot, and the fact she endured a blast and then returned fire doesn't mean she absorbed that blast. This isn't the comics and so far in the MCU she just seems to generate cosmic energy based on whatever that infinity stone powered reactor did to her.

Like I said earlier in the thread, energy absorption's a cool power set and I'd like Carol to explicitly show us she can do it in future films. I don't think it's been clearly shown yet though.

I don't think its fair to compare CM to Ragnarok. Being an origin film limits it potentials. Some of the best SH movies were sequels, so I expect the sequel to be a lot better.

Yeah, I agree. An origin story's never going to top sequels like Ragnarok or Winter Soldier.

Thor 1 and Captain Marvel are actually weirdly similar films. They're both flawed but enjoyable origin films where a ridiculously powerful cosmic hero crashes in small town America, gets involved with SHIELD, break into a govt base and eventually has to unlock their power through a moment of catharsis so they can step up and deal with a former ally turned foe that followed them to earth....

Here's hoping the Captain Marvel sequel is closer to Ragnarok than Dark World.

Given what he did for Thor, if Taika Watiti had directed CM it would have been the MCU's greatest film easily.

Taika's one of my favourite MCU directors (alongside Whedon and the Russos) and I'd definitely agree he could have made a better Captain Marvel film than the one we got. I don't think I'd go as far as saying he could've made it better than Ragnarok though. Carol's origin just isn't as awesome of a story as a combination of the Kirby/Simonson era Thor comics and Planet Hulk.

 

[flickchick85]

So anyone who argues Thor has better feats is a 'fanboy in denial'? Seems a bit of a double standard given you two are obviously big Captain Marvel fans.

It was friendly trash talk, no need to get bent up about it.

And I'm done with with power displays break down/back-and-forth. I said my piece about why I think Carol would win, am extremely confident based on what's been shown, and no amount of picking apart the stuff we've all seen will change that stance.

 

[Stormborn]

It was friendly trash talk, no need to get bent up about it.

Huh? I was just responding to you and Shuri, not sure what made you think I was angry. If you're done, no worries.

 

[flickchick85]

Huh? I was just responding to you and Shuri, not sure what made you think I was angry.

You just seemed to take my statement seriously instead of as the playful jab it was meant to be, is what I meant. This is all just silliness to me, and I don't want anyone thinking I actually dismiss their opinions as delusion or denial.

 

[BigThor]

I think I rank Captain Marvel higher than Thor 1 on my MCU list, I have to go back and rewatch Thor 1 to be sure.

 

[BigThor]

I'm very obviously a big Thor fan but I'm also excited to see Carol, Hulk, Strange etc get great feats and give us some awesome spectacle in future films and if that brings them closer to Thor's level when it comes to feats then no worries.

My man Thor welcomes other OP heroes:

Exactamundo

 

[Stormborn]

You just seemed to take my statement seriously instead of as the playful jab it was meant to be, is what I meant. This is all just silliness to me, and I don't want anyone thinking I actually dismiss their opinions as delusion or denial.

Yeah, I mean the was a bit of a giveaway you were at least half joking, I was just mockingly responding. My sense of humour's pretty dry, guess we got crossed wires.

I don't think anyone's showing crazy bias here, we just disagree. The fact we're big fans of these fictional characters is what makes conversations about what would happen if they met/fought interesting.

I think I rank Captain Marvel higher than Thor 1 on my MCU list, I have to go back and rewatch Thor 1 to be sure.

Thor 1 had a frustrating amount of wasted potential (it still bugs me that Thor's 1500 years old and they have him learn humility/become worthy by visiting a small New Mexican town for the weekend). Looking past that though, I still think it's a slightly better film than CM. There's no amnesia cliche, there's some great spectacle in the fight scenes, Hopkins nailed it as Odin and Loki's a great villain.

 

[flickchick85]

CM was a much better film than the first Thor, imo. As I've said many times in the past, I didn't care for Thor as a character until Ragnarok came around. Now I love him, and he's arguably my favorite Avenger. But his first two films did him no favors, imo. Chris was a charming oaf once he was on Earth, but the whole bravado thing wore thin quickly and he was mainly a joke with a couple earnest moments thrown in. The Odin/Loki dynamic was the only thing I really dug in the first Thor film. Whereas Carol was much more interesting and fleshed out as a person and the relationships they established felt a lot more genuine in her debut, which is what an origin film should be about, imo - getting invested in that person and their relationships. And I think going the amnesia route and discovering who the hero is right alongside them was a heck of a lot less clichéd way to do an origin than the basic "arrogant privileged boy gets taught a lesson in humility and becomes hero" route that was Thor's origin.