Marvel Films MCU Phase IV!

[Prison Mike]

BP2 is the end of Phase 4. Ant-Man 3 is the start of Phase 5

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Well technically the GotG Holiday Special is the end of Phase 4.

 

[BoredGuy]

I’m rewatching Phase 4 films and I have to say it really was a bit of a mess.

I read somewhere online that the main point of this phase was to allow the MCU to expand into all the others areas from the comics from the multiverse to magic to gods to celestials as well as the more grounded stories, meanwhile Feige talked about the phase being about grief.

However the net result has been a mess. I think they would’ve been better off picking one or two of those elements and focusing on them rather than doing everything at once.

So as not to just criticise without offering alternatives this is what I would’ve done.

I would’ve focused on two themes: the fall out from Phases 1-3 and the multiverse.

And here’s how I’d do it….

Black Widow I would’ve had her wake up in the soul universe and used the film to go back over key moments of her life including the Red Room (as depicted in Age of Ultron). It would’ve been more of a psychological drama; a kind of Scrooge/It’s A Wonderful Life meets Red Sparrow meets The Seventh Seal type thing. It also would’ve introduced us to the multiverse because we’d see a different Natasha who grown up in different circumstances and that is how we’d get to meet Yelena.

Shang-Chi basically the same movie but when he’s working as a valet Tony Stark drops off his car. Tony Stark is a playboy, arms dealer. It’s a parallel universe. That one scene puts to bed questions about “where were you for Thanos?” that has plagued every new hero in Phase 4 (who had their powers when Thanos turned up). Speaking of which….

Eternals I wouldn’t have touched it and instead introduced them in Phase 7 or whenever probably as the basis for introducing the Xmen.

So there’s a space for a movie here and I’d probably have either turned Loki into a movie or made Guardians of the Galaxy 3, the Marvels or Ant Man 3 to round those out in this phase - this would’ve kept it sufficiently connected to the previous phases to stop it from becoming disconnected. Any of those movies did or could expand on the multiverse whilst developing established characters and returning us to the “original” universe after Shang-Chi.

On balance I’d probably have gone for GofG as that could’ve also continued Thor’s development without needing to go down the path of Love and Thunder.

Spider-Man and Dr Strange wouldn’t need to change much.

Thor Love and Thunder on balance I’d have folded this into GofG3 and then added one of the other movies above to the slate. Also no gods. It would need to explore the multiverse. That’s the theme we’re building to.

As for the TV shows:

WandaVision: wouldn’t change

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier: also wouldn’t change.

Loki actually would’ve kept it as a TV show.

What if would’ve really tied all this together even better

Hawkeye ditto. No change.

Moon Knight wouldn’t have made it. They needed to have something that built on the above themes rather than introducing gods.

Ms Marvel why not but on only on the basis that the Noor dimension follows the same rules as the rest of the multiverse. The same with Ta Lo in Shang-Chi.

She Hulk again why not but try and tie it back to the multiverse somehow perhaps by having Hulk working on that on side (rather than heading off to space).

These small changes I think would’ve made the phase more connected.

That's a lot of multiverse
I'm glad they didn't go that direction

And I don't know what you're talking about with Shang Chi. He wasn't around for Endgame because he didn't have powers yet, and nobody knew who he was anyway. Thank god that movie wasn't set in an alternate universe, and that they didn't cram Tony Stark in there, even just for a cameo

 

[Venom 1988]

Yea not every single movie/show needs to deal with the multiverse. Shang-Chi is my 2nd favorite movie from this phase and I feel those above suggestions would have done the movie a disservice.

 

[NeverReadComics]

That's a lot of multiverse
I'm glad they didn't go that direction

And I don't know what you're talking about with Shang Chi. He wasn't around for Endgame because he didn't have powers yet, and nobody knew who he was anyway. Thank god that movie wasn't set in an alternate universe, and that they didn't cram Tony Stark in there, even just for a cameo

Well first he was trained in martial arts and could handle himself as well as the non-enhanced humans in the Battle of Earth.

Then there’s his father who had the ten rings. There’s also the issue that his father seemed to be toppling government and changing history at the exact same time as the Winter Soldier/Hydra/Black Widow and whoever else is apparently responsible for JFK in the MCU.

It all starts to grate this many films into the franchise which is why I think the multiverse offered an out.

I’m not sure how one gets too much multiverse. There’d be no need for constant hoping. Shang-Chi would’ve been the exact same film just with a slightly different setting that would have given it space to breath.

This is the issue with so many of the new entrants. They have baggage to overcome whether or not they were powered by the time of the Battle of Earth. For some it works e.g. Ms Marvel but for others it doesn’t e.g. Shang-Chi and definitely for Eternals!

 

[Bayne]

Well first he was trained in martial arts and could handle himself as well as the non-enhanced humans in the Battle of Earth.

Then there’s his father who had the ten rings. There’s also the issue that his father seemed to be toppling government and changing history at the exact same time as the Winter Soldier/Hydra/Black Widow and whoever else is apparently responsible for JFK in the MCU.

It all starts to grate this many films into the franchise which is why I think the multiverse offered an out.

I’m not sure how one gets too much multiverse. There’d be no need for constant hoping. Shang-Chi would’ve been the exact same film just with a slightly different setting that would have given it space to breath.

This is the issue with so many of the new entrants. They have baggage to overcome whether or not they were powered by the time of the Battle of Earth. For some it works e.g. Ms Marvel but for others it doesn’t e.g. Shang-Chi and definitely for Eternals!

There are hundreds if not thousands or millions of people in the world who are top shelf hand-to hand fighters. The Avengers never recruited all of them, why would they recruit Shang-Chi? And how would they when he was actively trying to ignore his previous life so that literally no one knew who he was or how good he was.

Also, his father the vague and mysterious international crime lord should have been approached to help fight Thanos? Why? And again, how?

I really don't see any problem, either, with the Ten Rings having an affect on history - since we *already knew that* - without the Ten Rings, there is no Iron Man just for one. The fact that Hydra was manipulating people into a prison state doesn't and shouldn't mean that every major event that happened was entirely under Hydra's control with no outside influence.

This sounds like a list of 'problems' from someone who just doesn't like (the idea of) the movie and is just looking for things to complain about. Certainly it sounds like at the very least, your problem in these areas is entirely down to your own very strange and indefensible expectations of what the movie 'should' be.

 

[BoredGuy]

Eternals it was also explained pretty clearly:
"Our orders were, don't do s**t unless deviants are involved"

And wait, I'm just thinking about this, if Eros and Thanos are brothers, and the Eternals are basically just robots, does that mean Thanos was a robot? The Deviants and Eternals also have no familial relationship, so is MCU Thanos not a deviant? Just an Eternal trying to stop Celestials across the universe from emerging?

 

[Venom 1988]

I’m not sure how one gets too much multiverse

Really? You said in your original post that you felt more of the movies/shows should have dealt with the multiverse. Black Widow, Shang-Chi, She-Hulk, etc...That seems pretty clear cut.

Also this is like the first time I've ever heard someone ask "Why didn't Shang-Chi help defeat Thanos". The dude was trying to live incognito and have a normal life on the other side of the country. Not to mention no one knew who he was or would have any reason to transport him to the fight.

 

[Prison Mike]

Is Thanos an Eternal in the MCU? They could easily say he isn’t.

 

[BoredGuy]

Is Thanos an Eternal in the MCU? They could easily say he isn’t.

Well unless it's an adoption situation somehow, where Eros assumed a life with Titanian parents whose real son was Thanos. Doesn't make much sense that they're actual brothers, since they're space robots, but maybe they were created together and stationed on Titan together

 

[metaphysician]

That's a lot of multiverse
I'm glad they didn't go that direction

And I don't know what you're talking about with Shang Chi. He wasn't around for Endgame because he didn't have powers yet, and nobody knew who he was anyway. Thank god that movie wasn't set in an alternate universe, and that they didn't cram Tony Stark in there, even just for a cameo

Also, ultimately, its a really big world. There *should* be more heroes in it than can fit in a single crossover. Sure, it makes sense to call in all the big guns you can, but not every single individual with extraordinary skills and powers however minor or obscure.

 

[metaphysician]

There are hundreds if not thousands or millions of people in the world who are top shelf hand-to hand fighters. The Avengers never recruited all of them, why would they recruit Shang-Chi? And how would they when he was actively trying to ignore his previous life so that literally no one knew who he was or how good he was.

Also, his father the vague and mysterious international crime lord should have been approached to help fight Thanos? Why? And again, how?

I really don't see any problem, either, with the Ten Rings having an affect on history - since we *already knew that* - without the Ten Rings, there is no Iron Man just for one. The fact that Hydra was manipulating people into a prison state doesn't and shouldn't mean that every major event that happened was entirely under Hydra's control with no outside influence.

This sounds like a list of 'problems' from someone who just doesn't like (the idea of) the movie and is just looking for things to complain about. Certainly it sounds like at the very least, your problem in these areas is entirely down to your own very strange and indefensible expectations of what the movie 'should' be.

I think, more specifically, its discomfort with or pushback against the idea that the MCU is a world that exists outside of and beyond the scope of any individual movie. Most movies are designed around the idea that only stuff which exists "on stage", and serves the purposes of the story on that stage, actually exists or is important. Nobody has lives outside the narrative of the movie, and nothing happens outside the narrative of the movie. Thus, any aspect of the setting most be explicitly established in a movie, for the purpose of advancing the purposes of that movie. Nothing happens when the camera isn't watching, at least nothing of any importance.

The problem is, even if this were a valid philosophy about movie-making, it has never actually be true for the MCU. All the way back in the very first Iron Man movie, it was heavily heavily implied that the world was bigger than any one hero, or one movie, and that important things have happened offscreen. The fact that we are now going on thirty movies in doesn't actually change this- there could be *sixty* MCU films and it doesn't magically mean that nothing more can ever happen offscreen.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

And wait, I'm just thinking about this, if Eros and Thanos are brothers, and the Eternals are basically just robots, does that mean Thanos was a robot? The Deviants and Eternals also have no familial relationship, so is MCU Thanos not a deviant? Just an Eternal trying to stop Celestials across the universe from emerging?

Well unless it's an adoption situation somehow, where Eros assumed a life with Titanian parents whose real son was Thanos. Doesn't make much sense that they're actual brothers, since they're space robots, but maybe they were created together and stationed on Titan together

This was my first thought coming out of the theater after watching Eternals too lol. I think the best way to do it is explain that while Eternals were built basically fully formed by the Celestials, Kingo's interpretation of that as "robots" is actually a huge simplification, and they are essentially artificially created organisms that are able to reproduce somehow in a "life finds a way" kind of way.

Though I guess if that fails it could be possible for Thanos and Eros to be adoptive brothers. Or even for Eros and Pip to be liars.

 

[NeverReadComics]

There are hundreds if not thousands or millions of people in the world who are top shelf hand-to hand fighters.

He was a sufficiently high profile super hero to get his own movie!

Look this really is a matter of opinion but it’s something that has grated the whole way through Phase 4.

Black Widow and possibly my GofG3/Thor, Dr Strange and Spiderman, would probably be the only movies I’d have had universe hoping (I really feel I should get more credit for my idea of using the soul stone to do a reverse origin story!). Shang Chi is the exact same movie except without the baggage.

And look if you feel that strongly about it I’m not going to die in the ditch over it (although the dad killing JFK (I know he didn’t I’m making a hyperbolic point) would need to be looked at it, I just didn’t find it “credible” (credibility measured on the basis of those moments in a superhero movie where you think “come on”)).

 

[NeverReadComics]

Eternals it was also explained pretty clearly:
"Our orders were, don't do s**t unless deviants are involved"

And wait, I'm just thinking about this, if Eros and Thanos are brothers, and the Eternals are basically just robots, does that mean Thanos was a robot? The Deviants and Eternals also have no familial relationship, so is MCU Thanos not a deviant? Just an Eternal trying to stop Celestials across the universe from emerging?

And you buy that excuse?

It was a terrible cop out.

(If you’re interested my alternative Eternals (had I done it/when I do it in Phase 15) would’ve been to have it predate the first phases and I’d have used it as an explanation as to why earth has produced so many special people.)

That’s why I think it’d be a good way of introducing X-Men since they’re basically X-Men (see my username).

 

[Bayne]

He was a sufficiently high profile super hero to get his own movie!

Look this really is a matter of opinion but it’s something that has grated the whole way through Phase 4.

Black Widow and possibly my GofG3/Thor, Dr Strange and Spiderman, would probably be the only movies I’d have had universe hoping (I really feel I should get more credit for my idea of using the soul stone to do a reverse origin story!). Shang Chi is the exact same movie except without the baggage.

And look if you feel that strongly about it I’m not going to die in the ditch over it (although the dad killing JFK (I know he didn’t I’m making a hyperbolic point) would need to be looked at it, I just didn’t find it “credible” (credibility measured on the basis of those moments in a superhero movie where you think “come on”)).

Oh, I see. The Avengers would've known they ought to recruit Shang-Chi if they had just paid attention to the box office reports.

You are selling complaints about this movie that literally make no sense whatsoever when viewed in the actual context of the movie itself.

 

[Venom 1988]

Shang Chi is the exact same movie except without the baggage.

What you are calling baggage is you nitpicking a movie wasn't made the way you would have wanted it. That isn't baggage.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Regardless if you find the excuses flimsy, that is on you. Fact is Endgame was released in 2019. There were no Eternals or Shang-Chi or Ms. Marvel or whoever to use to fight Thanos. They didn't exist yet. That is the reason they were not there, these other things are just canon explanations. If it bothers you to the point it breaks the MCU for you, then that is your right and go move on. But arguing Shang-Chi or whoever should have been there is fruitless. They didn't exist

 

[Mr. Peanut]

The Eternals were at least powerful enough that the question was worth addressing (they would definitely have made a difference). But Shang Chi? He was just really good at martial arts. What's he supposed to do against Thanos? And how would he even be involved? Is Dr. Strange supposed to grab every high level martial artist and plop them into the final battle with Thanos? And that's not even factoring in the fact that Shang Chi was in hiding and not actively using his martial arts skills, so Dr. Strange would have to use some sort of magical ability to detect secret martial arts skills in random people around the world. This whole line of thought makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[djsunyc]

shang chi was able to kill a dragon thing with the rings. so we know he has more than martial arts skill.

 

[djsunyc]

phase 3 was an unbelievable run of hits by marvel. they were in a zone. but phase 1 and phase 2 were just as uneven as phase 4 - and with far fewer properties (and not to mention a new medium in tv). i think it's easy to lump them all together but 1 and 2 were not close in quality to phase 3.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

shang chi was able to kill a dragon thing with the rings. so we know he has more than martial arts skill.

Well yeah, obviously Shang-Chi has the power of the ten rings now that he is in possession of the ten rings. But that doesn't really have any bearing on whether the Avengers should've recruited him to fight Thanos because he didn't have the rings yet then and was actively hiding his identity.

 

[psylockolussus]

phase 3 was an unbelievable run of hits by marvel. they were in a zone. but phase 1 and phase 2 were just as uneven as phase 4 - and with far fewer properties (and not to mention a new medium in tv). i think it's easy to lump them all together but 1 and 2 were not close in quality to phase 3.

Hmm I'd say Phase 4 has more lows than Phase 1 and 2. So for me it can't be called as uneven.

 

[djsunyc]

Hmm I'd say Phase 4 has more lows than Phase 1 and 2. So for me it can't be called as uneven.

i think the new medium and the quantity of projects makes it a unique phase and tough to compare to the other ones b/c of it.

 

[psylockolussus]

You also have to factor in the screentime.

Would you watch Iron Man 2 & Incredible Hulk or Eternals, Love & Thunder, Moon Knight and Falcon/Winter Soldier?

I'd pick the former. Not only because those two are better but I don't want to rewatch the series I mentioned.