Dark of the Moon Michael Bay has killed Transformers for me

[roach]

I've learned a long time ago to listen to someone name Optimus Prime

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

TRANSFORMERS was a toy commercial. Every. Last. Bit. Of. It

Transformers, unlike Toy Story, was a cartoon made by committee. The episodes were written weakly and often exchanged plots with other toy based property cartoons. Unlike Toy Story the franchise was not an idea so good it warranted toys and a fanbase, it was toys so good it warranted a 30 minute long commercial.

Transformers has always been about the toys, which were written into the show as they came out. Ever wonder why Optimus had to die in 1986? Because Optimus was no longer sold in 1987 as a new toy. Rodimus, Ultra Magnus and Springer were. You know why Starscream's ghost came back in season 3? Because his toy was a mail-in that year.

Transformers is a really dumb idea, I mean really preposterous. An Alien race that transforms into Earth Vehicles. That's why convoluted plot elements like "Cybertronian Mode" and "The Allspark" and "The Quintessons" were added. The origin stories within the show don't even agree with each other, ever.

Transformers has never been high brow science fiction. It's a creative writing project at best. A writer l-i-t-e-r-a-l-l-y was handed a bunch of toylines (really, there were four) and told to stitch them together in a story. There is a certain genius to what they (Bob Budinski and Neal Adams) did but it's always been a mish-mash of parts.

Look, I'm not saying Bay is God, although that's what my religion believes, but I will say you expect too much from this fiction. Bay's mistake was his horrible sense of humor and comedic timing, and his inability to do an action movie without inserting poor raunchy jokes. Perhaps his orange filter and shakey camera style bug you too. But...This property will never produce anything more than superficial entertainment, which is something Bay did do well...apart from the awful dialogue and poor humor.

Why do you believe the artists who wrote Transformer stories from cartoons to the comics had the same goals as toy executives?

Sorry but you have no proof this is true.

TRansformers is about living machines. That in itself is an interesting concept. It asks the question a very thoughtful question: can a machine be considered a living thing? Can a machine have a soul? What makes us living things, biology or something else? Transformers is about aliens fighting over Earths energy resources. That is very relevent to the times we're living in. Transformers is about endless conflict and how common and futile it can be.

Did the cartoon explore these ideas? Not very much but more than most cartoons.

Did the comics? Somewhat.

Can a movie? Absolutely.

and Toy Story is based on toys. Many of the toys featured in the movies are based on toys from the past, from Potato Head, to Barbie, to old action figures and dolls. A movie based on toys can be antyhing the writers put their minds to. It's only limited by imagination. If I told a talented writer to base a movie on a dwarf toy figure they could write the screenplay for Troll 2 or Lord of the Rings. It won't be limited by the plastic toy that inspired the story, it will be limited by the imagination of the storyteller as Toy Story 3 proves.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Basically you guys feel if a story is inspired by something other than a toyline it has endless potential but if it's based on a toyline nothing good can come from it. That simply is not true.

Did anyone think Mr. Potato Head and Barbie would be in an oscar nominated film? No yet Toy Story 3 is nominated for Best Picture.

So why can't an Optimus Prime be featured in a great film? I'd say he's a better character than Barbie or Mr Potato Head.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I've learned a long time ago to listen to someone name Optimus Prime

Especially if it's an anonymous poster on a geek website who defends Micheal Bay movies.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Transformers has the potential to be something better than what Bay has given us.

If you look at the summaries of TF mythos on wiki it's just as complex and colorful as anything you'd find in Star Wars, ET, even Harry Potter. All of these have simple premise with wonderful detail and story added.

Living machines who fight over energy for galactic supremacy end up on Earth which becomes a stategic tool. Sounds like legitimate sci-fi to me. It's only limited by the imagination of the writers and directors.

To compare Transformers to these things is really the height of false equivalencey.

 

[Marvin]

Basically you guys feel if a story is inspired by something other than a toyline it has endless potential but if it's based on a toyline nothing good can come from it. That simply is not true.

Did anyone think Mr. Potato Head and Barbie would be in an oscar nominated film? No yet Toy Story 3 is nominated for Best Picture.

So why can't an Optimus Prime be featured in a great film? I'd say he's a better character than Barbie or Mr Potato Head.

If Barbie stared in a movie called "Barbie the Movie"(produced by hasbro), I'm sure you would finally see where your point falls apart.

Transformers characters don't have to be in something as derivative as THE original whenever they are placed in a narrative. But when the movie is an adaptation of that very derivative narrative than it has every right to be.

If I made a movie about an orphan in Africa sick with aids, that had a talking optimus prime doll, I would have effectively created my very own oscar bait,
Toy storie is it's own narrative with it's own narrative goals it's that simple.

until then...
well you know.
keep fighting the good fight.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

To compare Transformers to these things is really the height of false equivalencey.

lol! What about ET, Harry Potter, and Star Wars as concepts are so terribly superior to alien machines fighting an intergalactic war?

Those concepts are basically simple too. It's the execution that elevates them.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

If Barbie stared in a movie called "Barbie the Movie"(produced by hasbro), I'm sure you would finally see where your point falls apart.

Transformers characters don't have to be in something as derivative as THE original whenever they are placed in a narrative. But when the movie is an adaptation of that very derivative narrative than it has every right to be.

If I made a movie about an orphan in Africa sick with aids, that had a talking optimus prime doll, I would have effectively created my very own oscar bait,
Toy storie is it's own narrative with it's own narrative goals it's that simple.

until then...
well you know.
keep fighting the good fight.

yeah and you keep defending Bay movies as if that is a more righteous cause.

Toy Story 3 is about toys escaping a pre-school. It's not about Barbie and Mr. Potato Head in Africa with AID infected orphans. It's about toys escaping pre-school. If that premise can be oscar worthy then why can't a movie about living machines fighting tyranny be at least a respected franchise.

 

[Marvin]

yeah and you keep defending Bay movies as if that is a more righteous cause.

Toy Story 3 is about toys escaping a pre-school. It's not about Barbie and Mr. Potato Head in Africa with AID infected orphans. It's about toys escaping pre-school. If that premise can be oscar worthy then why can't a movie about living machines fighting tyranny be at least a respected franchise.

Toy story is just as manipulative if you ask me...The africa example was to prove a point. Commercials vs manipulative Narratives.

who said anything about righteous causes
from day one I've simply debated the hyperbole that accompanies the criticism of the franchises as well as bay himself.

"worst movie of he year, worst adaptation ever" whilst not only is there a super mario movie running around but DragonBall evolution came out in the same 2009. More like most pissed off fanboys. ergo the fighting the good fight comment.

Transformers has megan fox bends over, oh hell lets rant about how offended we are.
other films have natalie portman bends over with just undies, "oh hell yes"

Transformers has debatable racial stereo types if that's how you see the characters, oh hell let's rant about how offended we are.
Cars, District 9, the hang over, kungfu panda, etc "oh hell yes."

in action camera, oh hell
Saving Private Ryan and Anime (praised for it's staging)

"I can't see what's happening, someone get these guys an tri-pod"

the list goes on and on.
all these things are present in alot of successful films but something about this smug little franchise just pisses people off enough to get them to rant on message boards about it.

I'll be the first to say Bay does alot of things wrong, alot of people do. I'll also say the franchise could be handled better, there isn't a single comicbook adaptation that couldn't be done a whole lot better. But there is just too much hyperbole surrounding this one..
No need to rant about DBZ or GIjoe when they don't do so well I guess.

Transformers is as Respected as it's ever been. That should be enough. you should be happy.

 

[Ken-Kaniff]

I can quote TFTM 1986 line by line, I know more about Transformers than most diehard nerds, and have every comic they've ever published and every TF episode they've ever produced including all Japanese shows...and IMO Transformers is incredible crap.

I've loved the show since it's inception, and loved the comics just as much, but it amuses me how many fans still think it's this untapped resource for incredible science fiction. It really is not. Our shining moment as Transformers fans is probably "The Adgenda" or "Code of Hero" (Dinobot valiantly sacrificing himself), before that it might have been TFTM.

In it's day TFTM was critically panned, even moreso than Bay's first attempt. It's marketing was a**, and it barely stayed in theaters. It's plot is full of holes so large that Unicron could drive his family through them, and the dialogue is choppy and full of exposition. I'd venture to say if you weren't a kid, like myself, who grew up in the eighties you'd find it woefully bad because the nostalgia factor is all that it has (in spades).

IMO Transformers is hardly good enough to make a good movie out of it. I think Bay probably squeezed about 80% of the properties potential. I mean look at what he has done. He's done a bang up job of fusing the mythos into the story. He's got robots that can teleport, he's done scenes on Cybertron, and he's included the allspark (a running theme through four of their cartoons). He's also included the Matrix, made reference to the Pretenders, and brought back many G1 voice actors. In this newest movie he's even bringing in Sentinel Prime! You can accuse Bay of many things, but leaving out mythos!?!? Not paying attention to the source material?!?!? He's done a superb job of that.

Too many Human scenes? Transformers has usually linked themselves to our world with human characters, strong ones, that hogged a ton of screen time. Spike Witwicky frequently was the star of G1 episodes and issues.

What he's done poorly is balancing comedy and action. This is no surprise. The only movie he ever did a good job of that was The Rock.

I think Bay does a lot of things wrong, but I will give him props for completing a franchise even if it wasn't the next Star Wars. The other side of this coin is if you want a reboot on the movies, you'll probably get one and no one will care amongst the fan community. Transformers can ALWAYS be rebooted. They've done it like clockwork since it was created. Before it was 1990 they had four, count them, four divergent timelines. So when Bay's finished almost anyone can do a new series or series of movies.

Optimus?? You came on EARTH for real! ZOMFG to open people's minds!p

I have to say you really did made great post! Thumbs Up!

And while I do agree that Bay's TF movies could have been better (no stupid twins with unfunny humour, no leg humping, more focusing on Ironhide & Ratchet and even Long Haul in TFII and the list goes on), overall he still did a GOOD job with the material he had, even though TFII for example, could and should have been better!

Anyway, let's hope the 3rd part will focus more on new and old Autobots & Decepticons and on their war.

 

[roach]

Especially if it's an anonymous poster on a geek website who defends Micheal Bay movies.

as opposed to another anonymous poster who complains that a movie series doesnt follow the original designs and storylines after two movies...thats like complaining about Batman not having a spandex costume in The Dark Knight Rises.
At what point will people just shrug their shoulders and realize this is Bay's take on the series. Just like the Marvel Comics series was different from the cartoon.
Hell people can accept animal transformers but not this......

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

as opposed to another anonymous poster who complains that a movie series doesnt follow the original designs and storylines after two movies...thats like complaining about Batman not having a spandex costume in The Dark Knight Rises.
At what point will people just shrug their shoulders and realize this is Bay's take on the series. Just like the Marvel Comics series was different from the cartoon.
Hell people can accept animal transformers but not this......

No it's like complaining that Nolan's Batman should be more like BTAS and you hope it will be fixed for a possible reboot.

G1 fans shouldn't simply give up on a G1 TF movie simply because Bay is finishing his third movie.

That would be like a Batman fan giving up during Schumacher's Batman and Robin during the mid-90's.

 

[roach]

who is giving up on more transformers movies when Bay leaves?

 

[Marvin]

who is giving up on more transformers movies when Bay leaves?

the general audience

but if handled right by the producers and they build a buzz machine around it
it could spark curiosity like the new spiderman.

 

[nogap87]

I'll also say the franchise could be handled better, there isn't a single comicbook adaptation that couldn't be done a whole lot better. But there is just too much hyperbole surrounding this one..
No need to rant about DBZ or GIjoe when they don't do so well I guess.

Really? I find the Transformers boards relatively tame compared to the *****fest that is the Batman, Superman, and Spider-man boards. At least on the hype.

I think I'm the only guy who liked G.I. Joe.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

So in TF2 which was worse, Tuturros 10 second ass shot, the plot, or dog-vastator having a nutsack?

 

[Marvin]

Really? I find the Transformers boards relatively tame compared to the *****fest that is the Batman, Superman, and Spider-man boards. At least on the hype.

I think I'm the only guy who liked G.I. Joe.

nah, I'm talking about the general critical response

as far as boards, none of those films have a love to hate director like bay doing as he will with their properties. So there really isn't a focus for the hate..ie the spiderman electric blue/red suit is a more of a wait and see, cause the director probably has "good intentions"

as far as gi joe, if bay made that exact same movie than the hyperbole would be abundant.
it's racist cause the black guy is dumb, it's not realistic, it's got not story etc.

the way it is now, it's just another meh film.

So in TF2 which was worse, Tuturros 10 second ass shot, the plot, or dog-vastator having a nutsack?

in any other film, all that stuff would have been considered humor, good or bad.
In these films it's the end of film.
"i've never been so offended in my entire life"
"worst story telling ever put to screen"

etc.

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

in any other film, all that stuff would have been considered humor, good or bad.
In these films it's the end of film.
"i've never been so offended in my entire life"
"worst story telling ever put to screen"

etc.

You dont really have to respond to defend it. If you like that kind of stuff its ok. Im just curious which people think was the worst.

 

[Marvin]

You dont really have to respond to defend it. If you like that kind of stuff its ok. Im just curious which people think was the worst.

I was actually using it as an examples for the previous post.

as for your "question"
I'd say the writing was lacking.

 

[nogap87]

nah, I'm talking about the general critical response

as far as boards, none of those films have a love to hate director like bay doing as he will with their properties. So there really isn't a focus for the hate..ie the spiderman electric blue/red suit is a more of a wait and see, cause the director probably has "good intentions"

as far as gi joe, if bay made that exact same movie than the hyperbole would be abundant.
it's racist cause the black guy is dumb, it's not realistic, it's got not story etc.

the way it is now, it's just another meh film.

Stephen Sommers got plenty of flack for Rise of Cobra. I admit he didn't get as much as Bay but that's probably because the humor wasn't as raunchy.

in any other film, all that stuff would have been considered humor, good or bad.
In these films it's the end of film.
"i've never been so offended in my entire life"
"worst story telling ever put to screen"

etc.

I see your point but you're exaggerating a bit. No one wants to see J. Jonah Jameson's ass in the next Spidey flick. No matter what kind of humor it is.

 

[Marvin]

I see your point but you're exaggerating a bit. No one wants to see J. Jonah Jameson's ass in the next Spidey flick. No matter what kind of humor it is.

I agree to a point.
The public humiliation of a tyrannical public figure in the form of indecent exposure is an interesting plot device when used right.

also jess alba went nude in FF, for all intents and purposes.

as far as raunchy jokes, I look to iron man to get kicks.

 

[nogap87]

I agree to a point.
The public humiliation of a tyrannical public figure in the form of indecent exposure is an interesting plot device when used right.

also jess alba went nude in FF, for all intents and purposes.

as far as raunchy jokes, I look to iron man to get kicks.

Jeez, I forget FF even had movies. Time flies...

Can't knock RDJ.

Though I hope to never see him naked either (or is it neither? I always get the two confused).

 

[8Diagrams(WU)]

I place ass shots in the same category as dick and fart jokes. Thats just me.

 

[kickass]

I have always stayed clear from this thread because I knew once I looked inside, it would be nothing but raging bulls. So I'll just say this one thing............

Optimus_Prime_ rocks.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

No it's like complaining that Nolan's Batman should be more like BTAS and you hope it will be fixed for a possible reboot.

G1 fans shouldn't simply give up on a G1 TF movie simply because Bay is finishing his third movie.

That would be like a Batman fan giving up during Schumacher's Batman and Robin during the mid-90's.

No, it's not the same, at all. Transformers is not like Batman, or even X-Men. It has far less continuity, and what do you mean "G1" movie. G1 is simply a garbage can term that describes mostly "that which came before, or references what came before G2 in the 1990s". The plotlines for G1 don't even agree with each other. IDW, Marvel, Dreamwave, Sunbow, Marvel UK and Japan all had "G1" timelines that rarely agree on much of anything aside from the characters which were predetermined by the toyline.

Batman at least has some consistency: trust fund child of about 8 whose parents were murdered by a shadowy assailant, who goes into intense training to become the feared vigilante known as Batman. Yes, tone and writers interpretations aside, even with DC's many retellings they've never drastically re-imagined the character or thrown away the entire plot like Transformers has.

In G1 alone the Transformers have been everything from sentient robots to transectors, which were piloted by humans.

Transformers is this: Toys that transform (sometimes), led by Optimus Prime and Megatron (mostly), that are sentient beings (usually) from Cybertron (until it exploded in Headmasters).

Here's another fun fact about Transformers: most of G1 mythos is fanon, or fan invented canon. Beast Wars was basically written by a message board, one of the first called alt.toys.transformers. If you watch the show they make many references to actually posters (subsection Hooks for example was the name of a user). Beast Wars timeline actually outright lies about things from the G1 cartoon to make it make more sense. G1 is a jumbled mess of plot elements, because from episode to episode the writers didn't communicate much and were just expected to hawk toys to kids. In Starscream's Brigade Starscream makes transformers out of old war vehicles, in The Key to Vector Sigma though it clearly states only vector sigma can grant new transformers life, which completely contradicts the Dinobots who were built on Earth. That's what I meant when I said it's incredible crap.

When making a Transformers movie you're better off tying together all the series, or cherry picking the elements you like. Beast Wars is probably the most highly regarded show they produced. G1 is actually closer to the worst show they produced. As I say, most of it's "brilliance" came from the toys and poor, nostalgia filled memories of what the show was really like. Transformers has never had a clear narrative, that's it's downfall as a piece of fiction. It's not really telling any story, it's just selling toys.

In my opinion Transformers was made by Welker and Cullen (and Latta). Without their voices the show would not have held up on it's writing.