Dark of the Moon Michael Bay has killed Transformers for me

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

As assumption I was apparently wrong on, although it can be debated he got the energy from Jetfire's spark transferred into Prime like a heart transplant for a robot.

No, that can not be debated.

The spark remained in Jetfires hand till it faded.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

What do you expect a fan to do? Forget and ignore what made us fans in the first place while Bay groupies blindly praise the subpar movies? Why on Earth would we do that right when Bay said he's done with the franchise. Seems like the perfect time to discuss what's missing from the movies.

I'm not blindly praising Bay's films, and I've said time and again there were things about them I've disliked, such as Sam's friend from Revenge of the Fallen, or Megan Fox's wooden acting style. All those things are worthwhile criticisms. What we're trying to say, what we've been trying to say, is that many of Bay's critics are ignoring the fact that G1 was more stupid, more inane than the films Bay produced. It's one thing to demand a better movie, it's completely different to assume all of the movies faults rise and fall because it deviated from an even stupidier movie/show. Michael Bay may have done a lot of wrong, but he did a great job updating the material so it would be palateable to a wider audience, something G1 did a horrible job of with it's movie.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

No, that can not be debated.

The spark remained in Jetfires hand till it faded.

Eh? Howevere it happened I thought the whole Jetfire-Prime combo was fine. Prime's only been combining with things for nearly 23 years now, and it isn't the first time it's been with a robot named Jetfire.

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Eh? Howevere it happened I thought the whole Jetfire-Prime combo was fine. Prime's only been combining with things for nearly 23 years now, and it isn't the first time it's been with a robot named Jetfire.

Ohh I had no problem with that at all, just didnt like how it looked, and that Jetfire had to die to do it.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Ohh I had no problem with that at all, just didnt like how it looked, and that Jetfire had to die to do it.

I was a little surprised they killed him off actually.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I'm not blindly praising Bay's films, and I've said time and again there were things about them I've disliked, such as Sam's friend from Revenge of the Fallen, or Megan Fox's wooden acting style. All those things are worthwhile criticisms. What we're trying to say, what we've been trying to say, is that many of Bay's critics are ignoring the fact that G1 was more stupid, more inane than the films Bay produced. It's one thing to demand a better movie, it's completely different to assume all of the movies faults rise and fall because it deviated from an even stupidier movie/show. Michael Bay may have done a lot of wrong, but he did a great job updating the material so it would be palateable to a wider audience, something G1 did a horrible job of with it's movie.

Actually Transformers the Animated Movie got a higher critic and user rating than Bayformers 2 on rotten tomatoes.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that it was worse than Bayformers 2.

The G1 cartoon had strong points and weak points. You had Decepticons greedily raiding oil rigs and power plants for energy. This is more relevant and interesting than anything from Bayformers. It's actually a statement about the nature of Americas oil addiction. That's more insightful than anything you'll find in current kids television.

Bay took what were solid building blocks for decent sci-fi and turned it into a big dumb monster truck rally with humping, pissing and robotic testicles. Heck the G1 UK comics make the Bayformer universe look like a toddler's finger painting.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Actually Transformers the Animated Movie got a higher critic and user rating than Bayformers 2 on rotten tomatoes.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that it was worse than Bayformers 2.

When it came out it was universially panned. Look it up. Leonard Maltin and Ebert trashed it initially. They've changed their tune a bit since the franchise has endurred, but they skewered it initially. Or just look up Transformers The Movie plotholes...it's a long ass list.

The G1 cartoon had strong points and weak points. You had Decepticons greedily raiding oil rigs and power plants for energy. This is more relevant and interesting than anything from Bayformers. It's actually a statement about the nature of Americas oil addiction. That's more insightful than anything you'll find in current kids television.

Once or twice. It wasn't a running theme or anything, and it was something they often did in G.I.Joe too. Energon was poorly defined. It was a number of things made from rubbies, or oil, or even Transformers. They're wasn't this grand political statement in it as people seem to think.
Bay took what were solid building blocks for decent sci-fi and turned it into

a big dumb monster truck rally with humping, pissing and robotic testicles. Heck the G1 UK comics make the Bayformer universe look like a toddler's finger painting.

As much as the UK does have scads of clever wit it's still beyond ridiculous and far from solid. I don't think Time Storms are the answer to making Transformers LESS ridiculous.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

If Bay can add adult humor to Transformers why can't he make it more mature in other ways?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

If Bay can add adult humor to Transformers why can't he make it more mature in other ways?

Read my previous posts on the "adult humor". I've stated multiple times I didn't like it much. Transformers 1 is far better at handling it though.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

When it came out it was universially panned. Look it up. Leonard Maltin and Ebert trashed it initially. They've changed their tune a bit since the franchise has endurred, but they skewered it initially. Or just look up Transformers The Movie plotholes...it's a long ass list.

Who cares what Leonard Maltin thinks?

and if you compare today's reviews for TF the animated movie to Bayformers 2, TF the animated movie flat out wins. PERIOD.

Once or twice. It wasn't a running theme or anything, and it was something they often did in G.I.Joe too. Energon was poorly defined. It was a number of things made from rubbies, or oil, or even Transformers. They're wasn't this grand political statement in it as people seem to think.
Bay took what were solid building blocks for decent sci-fi and turned it into
As much as the UK does have scads of clever wit it's still beyond ridiculous and far from solid. I don't think Time Storms are the answer to making Transformers LESS ridiculous.

Like I said Decepticons raiding oil rigs and power plants (which they did in several episodes) is far more relevant and compelling than anything you'll find in Bayformers 1 or 2. Bay skipped it because he's sympathetic to the neo-con cause (drill baby drill).

Is it a detailed thesis on oil addiction and corrupt energy policy? No.

But it does make a statement. Obviously.

You won't find anything near socially relevant or politically charged in current cartoons. Nada.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Read my previous posts on the "adult humor". I've stated multiple times I didn't like it much. Transformers 1 is far better at handling it though.

It doesn't matter if you like it or not. The fact remains that Bay forces in adult humor but he refuses to add mature themes in any other way.

If you can put sex and drugs in a TF film you can put mature sci-fi in there as well.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Who cares what Leonard Maltin thinks?

and if you compare today's reviews for TF the animated movie to Bayformers 2, TF the animated movie flat out wins. PERIOD.

But, it really doesn't. Transformers 1986 barely grossed 5 million.

Like I said Decepticons raiding oil rigs and power plants (which they did in several episodes) is far more relevant and compelling than anything you'll find in Bayformers 1 or 2. Bay skipped it because he's sympathetic to the neo-con cause (drill baby drill).

No. It. Really. Isn't. It's not that deep or interesting a political statement. Maybe if you're like 2 years old it's kind of neat, but Energon was a vague substance at best. They only attacked an oil rig ONCE out of 98 episodes. I have no idea where people get the idea that Oil Rigs and Transformers go hand in hand, and it doesn't for G.I. Joe which had fights on Oil Rigs. In the comic they attacked a Movie Theater? Is that more relevant to the fiction. Oooh, Oooh, how about giant car washes of doom or killing yourself through a video game: those were huge plotlines too. You're just picking one you personally like. I like Transformers working with the military: THAT HAPPENED TOO A LOT MORE IN THE COMICS.

Is it a detailed thesis on oil addiction and corrupt energy policy? No.

No.

But it does make a statement. Obviously.

Transformers was as culturally ignorant and conservative biased as most of the 80's tunes. It wasn't a political statement. Casey Casem quit because the show was racist to middle easterners.

You won't find anything near socially relevant or politically charged in current cartoons. Nada.

What, like Beast Wars Code of Hero. Or the Animated taking place in a futuristic Detriot. Or the recent IDW Prowl issue, or the Kup issue, or the Last Stand of the Wreckers (probably the best thing yet)...No, nothing since G1 has made a political statement. All bow to G1 which can do no wrong...

 

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

No. It. Really. Isn't. It's not that deep or interesting a political statement. Maybe if you're like 2 years old it's kind of neat, but Energon was a vague substance at best. They only attacked an oil rig ONCE out of 98 episodes.

They attacked 1 offshore oil rig in the first episode,

They also took over Carbombya for its oil fields.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

They attacked 1 offshore oil rig in the first episode,

They also took over Carbombya for its oil fields.

I was speaking directly of the Oil Rig, but yes they attacked Carbombya in the third season. I doubt Hasbro wishes to revisit "Car-Bomb-You" in the near future.

 

[Marvin]

It doesn't matter if you like it or not. The fact remains that Bay forces in adult humor but he refuses to add mature themes in any other way.

If you can put sex and drugs in a TF film you can put mature sci-fi in there as well.

I've always been interested in how one can use deductive reasoning to find substance in the 80's cartoon, yet fail to find any substance in the mostly silly live action films.

Right off the very bat there is the theme of the trigger happy american defense adminstration going to war with the wrong enemy and an out of touch president, which represents perhaps the most social relevant contemporary war theme there is...And then you have optimus and his many speeches about the value of life..and other little things sprinkled about...

I wouldn't dream of going to go the route of saying these new films are anything more than what Hasbro needs/wants them to be when compared to the likes of Million dollar baby and Shawshank. But there does seem to be a sort of blinder effect happening in relation to substance comparison.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I've always been interested in how one can use deductive reasoning to find substance in the 80's cartoon, yet fail to find any substance in the mostly silly live action films.

Right off the very bat there is the theme of the trigger happy american defense adminstration going to war with the wrong enemy and an out of touch president, which represents perhaps the most social relevant contemporary war theme there is...And then you have optimus and his many speeches about the value of life..and other little things sprinkled about...

I wouldn't dream of going to go the route of saying these new films are anything more than what Hasbro needs/wants them to be when compared to the likes of Million dollar baby and Shawshank. But there does seem to be a sort of blinder effect happening in relation to substance comparison.

Outstanding point. More than likely Oil Rigs had less to do with political statements and more with "where's a cool place to fight?". Yet one can draw political analogies out of this and not out of Bayformers?!? Even though Bayformers ended with Government coverups, secret Government agencies, people more concerned with military dominance and technological dominance than safety, it had no political relevance but the first episode of "More Than Meets The Eye" did.

 

[BigThor]

I never said you couldn't.

Oh my bad bro, I misunderstood who you were applying that too.

My apologies

 

[BigThor]

Since I don't feel like doing several quotes, I'm just gonna say this...

I agree with Marvin, Optimus Prime, Chaseter on all counts and I also agree with Powerbomb's statements about Optimus kicking ass.

 

[Hotwire]

I've always been interested in how one can use deductive reasoning to find substance in the 80's cartoon, yet fail to find any substance in the mostly silly live action films.

Right off the very bat there is the theme of the trigger happy american defense adminstration going to war with the wrong enemy and an out of touch president, which represents perhaps the most social relevant contemporary war theme there is...And then you have optimus and his many speeches about the value of life..and other little things sprinkled about...

I wouldn't dream of going to go the route of saying these new films are anything more than what Hasbro needs/wants them to be when compared to the likes of Million dollar baby and Shawshank. But there does seem to be a sort of blinder effect happening in relation to substance comparison.

Outstanding point. More than likely Oil Rigs had less to do with political statements and more with "where's a cool place to fight?". Yet one can draw political analogies out of this and not out of Bayformers?!? Even though Bayformers ended with Government coverups, secret Government agencies, people more concerned with military dominance and technological dominance than safety, it had no political relevance but the first episode of "More Than Meets The Eye" did.

Well said, guys.

 

[CEREBRAL....]

And with that, you can now stop questioning why I post as often as I seem to. And here I thought you said you didn't like sarcasm.

huh yeah...ok

Sorry if that's too many examples for you but it has to be said. Since you like quoting bay so much, tell me where he said anything about how tasteless this film was.

I agree it was silly, I too hope there is more tonal consistency in the new film.

for you it had to be said, like i said..this situation/debate aint that complex..but i guess that is the way you debate...find examples of all types...no problem man, be you...

You are being way too literal...does he have to really say it was "tasteless" do you really need everything to be said EXACT for you to get the point..i dont think you do, and i dont think i ever said M.Bay said it was tasteless..i'm sure, i said he recognized the movie could of been better...

all actions and his quotes point to his recognition of TF needing to be better, again take that how you want to. But i like to think most people get what he is saying...and i dont like to "quote" M.bay but i like to point out that he understoon that certain points of his movie failed..some of the points i have, and others have echoed since you to me seem like my point of view of this movie aren't legit....i call it as i see it man...*shrug shoulders*

like i said..i respect yours and others views on here.....if you like the movie fine, i didnt like the movie..that should be fine too, agree to disagree.., respect my views are diff. from yours...i been trying to get that across and hope i wasnt insulting anyones intelligences as i was doing so.

No, you just need to be clear. Like you said yourself the word has many meanings..

i was quite clear..you just like everything spelled out apparently..

I in fact never saw a pair of balls in the transformers movies.
I can look outside my office at the construction site this very moment and see about six more pairs of wrecking balls..should I be offended?
(that's the difference between silly and tastless btw)

John Turturro "I'm standing directing under.....the roborts...balls"
(may not be his exact quote..) but again..you say tomato, i say tomata..whatever duke...*shrugs shoulders*

whatever offends or doesnt offend you doesnt mean it can't or shouldn't offend the next person..you do realize and respect other peoples views right...if it didnt offend you doesnt mean it shouldn't offended the next person....right??

I get that "alot" of people don't like the movies, haters and normal people alike. That works for me, What doesn't work for me is when people cry RACISM and OFFENSIVE MATERIAL when really the film just doesn't work for them.

how do you know this? You know what they are thinking..you know the intentions of everyone who opposes TF2 and One? I dont think you do.

 

[CEREBRAL....]

What we're trying to say, what we've been trying to say, is that many of Bay's critics are ignoring the fact that G1 was more stupid, more inane than the films Bay produced. .

so there was robots peeing on humans in the cartoon?, there were weed brownies mention in the cartoon? dog humping as well? Or how about the bathroom scene with Sam's best friend and John Turtturo? yeah lets have your pants down by your ankles with another man in the bathroom too...yeah i think i seen that in the cartoon as well too...(sarcasm)

i'm not asking for an exact replica of G1..just respect the source material and do a good damn movie..that's pretty simple...go ahead add sillyness in there..by all means that makes sense..but for the love of god...have the sillyness be funny and tasteful since you're gonna have little kids watching the movie....

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

so there was robots peeing on humans in the cartoon?, there were weed brownies mention in the cartoon? dog humping as well? Or how about the bathroom scene with Sam's best friend and John Turtturo? yeah lets have your pants down by your ankles with another man in the bathroom too...yeah i think i seen that in the cartoon as well too...(sarcasm)

There was lots of stupid sh** in the cartoon, like going to a dimension where a child played with them like toys, or having a crude middle eastern stereotype ramble on about goats, or finding themselves on an Opera planet, or the time they chased a high school fair robot through the school. I don't get how dumb humor is somehow worse because it's about pot and humping. The humor of Transformers G1 was just as inane and out of place in a show supposedly about war, even worse they contructed whole episodes around ******ed things. Again, if you bother to read my posts you'll noticed I'm not thrilled with Bay's sense of humor but to claim the show strayed away from dumb comedy is well...wrong. Flat out wrong.

Also, the entire reason that the humor in the movie contained "weed" and "sex" is because the movie is rated PG-13 and the show was rated G. It's the same reason why in G1's cartoon the Transformers couldn't shoot each other and rarely, if ever, got injured. Most action movie comic relief is going to be edgier than a cartoon show for kids.

i'm not asking for an exact replica of G1..just respect the source material

WHAT SOURCE MATERIAL?!? You're faulty nostalgia filled memory of a show that was cancelled over twenty years ago? You want them to respect your vision of Transformers, NOT what it actually was, which Bay approximated fairly well (especially in the first movie).

He's included tons of the source material. The Allspark, the Matrix, Jetfire, Jetfire combining with Optimus, Protoforms, Sentinel Prime, the Fallen, Energon, the Great War, Minicon like robots...all that stuff comes from the comics and cartoons. Even the robot names were re-issued names. Again, I seriously think people ARE asking for a rehash of G1 if they're claiming Bay "did not include the source material"...because he did, in abundance.

I seriously don't understand why a series that has over 500 individual episodes and probably around 400 comic issues has to confine itself to one or few of these. As I've said, Hasbro has rebooted the franchise every chance they got. Even Transformers The Movie 1986 disregarded previous "canon", and ignored the latter half of season 2 to introduce an entirely new cast and direction. Now, however, the Live Action Treatment is supposed to retread a few episodes from the first season. Rubbish.

and do a good damn movie..that's pretty simple...go ahead add sillyness in there..by all means that makes sense..but for the love of god...have the sillyness be funny and tasteful since you're gonna have little kids watching the movie....

What are you part of the FCC now? I wouldn't call Iron Man's sex scene with a reporter "tasteful" humor, and I haven't heard you cry foul about that being in a "children's" action movie. Children don't have disposeable income like late teen to early twenty somethings that blockbusters want to capitalize on. True, Transformers is a toyline, but because they want to make a lot of money on their film it's naturally going to cater to an older crowd.

You realize they employed this strategy in Transformers: The Movie (1986) right? The entire reason Spike says "sh**" was so that parents would have to take their children thereby seeing the new toys they were supposed to be buying them. That line was gratituitous, admittedly. They even took in out on some of the home video releases.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

But, it really doesn't. Transformers 1986 barely grossed 5 million.

It still considered a better movie by critics and users. I don't see how money is a factor. The budget was probably less than 3 million. Bayformers had a budget of 200 million.

No. It. Really. Isn't. It's not that deep or interesting a political statement. Maybe if you're like 2 years old it's kind of neat, but Energon was a vague substance at best. They only attacked an oil rig ONCE out of 98 episodes. I have no idea where people get the idea that Oil Rigs and Transformers go hand in hand, and it doesn't for G.I. Joe which had fights on Oil Rigs. In the comic they attacked a Movie Theater? Is that more relevant to the fiction. Oooh, Oooh, how about giant car washes of doom or killing yourself through a video game: those were huge plotlines too. You're just picking one you personally like. I like Transformers working with the military: THAT HAPPENED TOO A LOT MORE IN THE COMICS.

They attacked oil rigs and power plants in several episodes. There was no need to do it every episode.

and the Decepticons (a military class of machines) were raiding oil rigs and power plants to feed their greedy apetite for energy. Theres OBVIOUSLY a message there. The oil rigs and power plants aren't a random setting for the Transformers to fight.

Energon itself played a role in many episodes. And they almost always stole the raw energy to make energon from helpless American power plants. You had Americans running for cover while military jets shot at them then those jets would transform and start draining the power plants of energy while Americans were powerless to stop them. If you don't see an allegory for unfair energy policy you're either blind or a lying to yourself.

No.

Transformers was as culturally ignorant and conservative biased as most of the 80's tunes. It wasn't a political statement. Casey Casem quit because the show was racist to middle easterners.

Sorry but not all episodes had the same writers. Casem quit because a middle eastern country was called Car-bomb-ya. Who knows why a writer did that but it doesn't default any previous statements made by other writers.

What, like Beast Wars Code of Hero. Or the Animated taking place in a futuristic Detriot. Or the recent IDW Prowl issue, or the Kup issue, or the Last Stand of the Wreckers (probably the best thing yet)...No, nothing since G1 has made a political statement. All bow to G1 which can do no wrong...

I'm not saying G1 was flawless. I already stated that it had weak points. But pretending fighter jets raiding power plants for raw energy to greedily consume had no relevance is intellectually dishonest to say the least.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I'm not saying G1 was flawless. I already stated that it had weak points. But pretending fighter jets raiding power plants for raw energy to greedily consume had no relevance is intellectually dishonest to say the least.

No, but what you are doing is stretching a small aspect of one episode (it was one, not several) in the three episode pilot, and applying it to the entire series(s) as if it speaks for the entirity of Transformers. Moreover you're unable to apply this same logic to Bayformers as if to suggest it's devoid of any political commentary. Actually, I'd say any unbiased appraisal would conclude that Bay included a lot more politics in his. You had Government conspiracies, cover-ups, war strikes, and military characters in abundance in Transformers 1 and 2, yet according to you these are less of a discussion started than a scene where they attacked an oil rig. By the way, the show never once addressed the ramifications for attacking an Oil Rig. The thing was destroyed, Spike and Sparkplug (ridiculous names for humans) lost their jobs presumeably, but it was treated like another Tuesday.

By the by, what was the political relevance of Transformers the Movie 1986? Or the relevance of The Adgenda? They apparently lacked a political message.

Again, it doesn't seem like you're looking for a political message. You're looking for a political message that conveniently lines up with the first episode of a cartoon (G1)...meaning that again, this is just a plea for them to rehash your personal favorite cartoon.

Sorry but not all episodes had the same writers. Casem quit because a middle eastern country was called Car-bomb-ya. Who knows why a writer did that but it doesn't default any previous statements made by other writers.

Most of them were recurring writers, and many of those who wrote prior episodes used Car-Bomb-Ya. Furthermore I don't know why you're referring to the Oil Rig fight as a "political statement". It wasn't. No more than having Batman 'create' Joker in a vat of chemicals is a commentary on animal testing. You're reading into it what you want, not necessarily what's there, and drawing deductively some conclusion for it. The Oil Rig was simply a plot device so the Autobots could meet their human companions, the same way the movie theater was used in the comics. There's is no more reason to have the Transformers fight on an Oil Rig than there is to have them fight in Los Angeles

 

[Hotwire]

MessiahDecoy, you are really reaching here. You are actually suggesting that a kids cartoon, designed as a 30 minute toy commercial, was trying to stir the sociopolitical pot with it's themes? Honestly, did you, as a kid, get that from watching the show? Did you realize, at age 8, that the military was draining our resources? Wow. You keep reaching like that, you're going to pull a muscle.