Transformers Negatron: Discussion Thread for those that hate the way this movie is heading

[The Kid]

Anybody that places Bay on such a higher pedestal than Sam Raimi is pretty much wacko in my book. And if you have any notions that Bay is making this movie out of his love for Transformers then you are more than delusional...you must be brainwashed.

Well I guess I'm brainwashed then, just as much as the crazy spidey fanboys who try their best to defend everything raimi does as if he invented spider-man himself.

 

[CFlash]

Well I guess I'm brainwashed then, just as much as the crazy spidey fanboys who try their best to defend everything raimi does as if he invented spider-man himself.

What you can't seem to understand is that there's a reason why the Spider-man movies are held in such high esteem by a vast (vast!) majority of fans. No one can change your mind... but, there is indeed a reason.

I don't defend everything Raimi does. But, I do think he's an immensely talented director and has been for over 20 years. His movies spawn humongous followings.... consistently. Michael Bay? Not so much. History speaks volumes.

But, really, comparing Bay to Raimi is like comparing Puff Daddy to Eric B. & Rakeem. Or NSYNC to REM. Sure, you can like Puff Daddy.... but, come on. Be serious.

 

[The Kid]

Whatever. Sit down with a cup of tea and explain to me exactly why Sam raimi is such a great director beyond his cult following from the tree rape movie. Go ahead. I'm listening.

I have no delusions about bay. I know realistically what his strengths and weaknesses are as a director. Who I believe to be delusional are the ones claiming raimi's immensely talented because he's not.

Spiderman had a humungous following long before raimi made his movies btw, but anyway, yes go ahead and overrate raimi some more. And show me the following for the gift.

 

[CFlash]

Whatever. Sit down with a cup of tea and explain to me exactly why Sam raimi is such a great director beyond his cult following from the tree rape movie. Go ahead. I'm listening.

I have no delusions about bay. I know realistically what his strengths and weaknesses are as a director. Who I believe to be delusional are the ones claiming raimi's immensely talented because he's not.

Spiderman had a humungous following long before raimi made his movies btw, but anyway, yes go ahead and overrate raimi some more. And show me the following for the gift.

Obviously, you must know more about movies than throngs of both critics and fans. You are unique.

- Aside from the "tree rape" movie (which is pretty consistently cited as the 2nd best horror movie next to The Exorcist by horror fans.. or at least right up there), there's also...

- Darkman which was extremely well-received by critics (unlike Michael Bay's movies)... and also pretty much everybody at the time that was into comics. Look it up in Wiki. "[the only film] most conformant with superhero origin story formula elements at the time (narrowly beating out Robocop)."

- Then there's the Xena series which garnered a fan following only rivaled by Buffy. (This one alone disproves your entire first paragraph). I personally don't like Xena. But I can see why hordes of people did.

- The Quick and The Dead. Also, praised by critics as a great homage film. Brilliantly crafted movie.

- A Simple Plan. Showed his talent at directing drama. Great movie. And it was met with huge critical acclaim: As one critic says "The film manages to transcend its formula and become a very interesting study in what makes good people do evil things." Has Michael Bay ever made a movie like that? It even gets a 94% rating in RottenTomatoes.... which is pretty extraordinary.

- You don't like The Gift? Well, he didn't write it (unlike many of his other movies which he did write or at least contributed to). He was a hired gun.... and he directed the heck out of that movie. Like it or not... The Gift was well-directed.

You asked for it. You say "you're listening." Somehow I doubt it. I await your inevitable derision on what everybody knows are well-made, well-directed, and artful movies (whether some of them are their cup of tea or not).

 

[The Kid]

No, unlike you, I'm open to being wrong since I know I can be wrong.

But in this case I know I'm not. Raimi's an average director, always has been. Making two overrated blockbusters don't make him spielberg.

 

[CFlash]

No, unlike you, I'm open to being wrong since I know I can be wrong.

But in this case I know I'm not. Raimi's an average director, always has been. Making two overrated blockbusters don't make him spielberg.

And I never said he was Spielberg.
And I think you're right... "making two overrated blockbusters" don't mean nuthin. That goes for Michael Bay too. Unlike Michael Bay though- as I already SHOWED- Sam Raimi has made A LOT more than that. A lot.

I'm open. You just haven't shown anything to support your assertion that Raimi is overrated... much less a better director than Michael Bay.

You don't have to like a filmmaker's movies to recognize his talent(s). Believe it or not I'm not a big fan of James Cameron (cept for Terminator and the Special Edition (only) of Aliens). But I recognize his storytelling abilities and his great talents and I wouldn't call him overrated (cept I do think T2 is a tad overrated ). Michael Bay has talents. His movies wouldn't make any money otherwise. But, his defficiencies as a *real* director in every sense are just too much to bear.

Again, Bay is NSYNC. Raimi is REM. You don't have to like REM to appreciate their deeper talents.

 

[nosebleed.]

Transformers had a humungous following long before Bay made his movies btw

edited your post to show that you can say the same thing for Transformers.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Who said Bay is better than Raimi? Sure it's only an opinion, but come on now.

Don't get me wrong though. Bay is a great action director. I love The Rock and Armageddon, but other than that he hasn't really done anything of merit compared to Raimi. Am I interested to see what Bay has done with TF? Indeed I am, however, the pictures I've seen along with the rumors of the script leak has made me very apprehensive of the film.

In the end it comes down to a matter of opinion.

What rubs me the wrong way about Bay is his egotistical nature and him putting down fans who don't agree with him.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Who said Bay is better than Raimi? Sure it's only an opinion, but come on now.

Don't get me wrong though. Bay is a great action director. I love The Rock and Armageddon, but other than that he hasn't really done anything of merit compared to Raimi. Am I interested to see what Bay has done with TF? Indeed I am, however, the pictures I've seen along with the rumors of the script leak has made me very apprehensive of the film.

In the end it comes down to a matter of opinion.

What rubs me the wrong way about Bay is his egotistical nature and him putting down fans who don't agree with him.

Outside SM2 and Simple Plan i don't see anything special about Raimi and while Bay is some what dissmisive of fanboys they are rude about him so why shouldn't he be ?

 

[CFlash]

Outside SM2 and Simple Plan i don't see anything special about Raimi and while Bay is some what dissmisive of fanboys they are rude about him so why shouldn't he be ?

Because he's a professional. He should act like one.

And, while you may not see anything special about Sam Raimi, he's got a very long history dealing with fans and grasping the things that make fandoms tick and his movies strike a chord in people. Like him or not, that's what probably makes him special.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Because he's a professional. He should act like one.

And, while you may not see anything special about Sam Raimi, he's got a very long history dealing with fans and grasping the things that make fandoms tick and his movies strike a chord in people. Like him or not, that's what probably makes him special.

He's a director and a person if all he gets is abuse he's gonna tell ppl what he thinks,just like Cameron does,if he had made this movie or any comic book film he wouldn't have stood for fanboys tantrums.

Spidey connected,he's had no other hits except a cult one with that Ash stuff,he's a fun director,i like Dark Man but he's not a Spielberg or Cameron or Scott or umpteen other film makers i could think of who are on another level both critically and commercially

 

[CFlash]

He's a director and a person if all he gets is abuse he's gonna tell ppl what he thinks,just like Cameron does,if he had made this movie or any comic book film he wouldn't have stood for fanboys tantrums.

Spidey connected,he's had no other hits except a cult one with that Ash stuff,he's a fun director,i like Dark Man but he's not a Spielberg or Cameron or Scott or umpteen other film makers i could think of who are on another level both critically and commercially

Well, I agree that he's not Scott, Spielberg, or Cameron. But you're wrong about the cult thing. It's not just Evil Dead. Xena had and prob still does have a massive cult following. Didn't you read my post?

You're also wrong about the "critically" thing. He has consistenly been recognized as an auteur by buffs and critics. But, he's never been given the money to make a blockbuster. Until now. And he knocked it out the park. That's gotta count for something.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Well, I agree that he's not Scott, Spielberg, or Cameron. But you're wrong about the cult thing. It's not just Evil Dead. Xena had and prob still does have a massive cult following. Didn't you read my post?

You're also wrong about the "critically" thing. He has consistenly been recognized as an auteur by buffs and critics. But, he's never been given the money to make a blockbuster. Until now. And he knocked it out the park. That's gotta count for something.

Xena the warrior princess is minor and you never mentioned it in your posts to me and all his stuff is cult fanboy stuff like Rodriguez,he's not a director i'd consider as a top guy in the league of true top tier guys

He's recognized as the guy that brings the fanboys stuff to life but he's not critically received like the film makers i mentioned so i'm not wrong,i never said he wasn't good or liked by critics, i said he's not in the top echelon by a long shot and Spidey has been massive but a lot of that is to do with the character and the property not Raimi,it's like Donner and Superman.

 

[CFlash]

Xena the warrior princess is minor and you never mentioned it in your posts to me and all his stuff is cult fanboy stuff like Rodriguez,he's not a director i'd consider as a top guy in the league of true top tier guys

He's recognized as the guy that brings the fanboys stuff to life but he's not critically received like the film makers i mentioned so i'm not wrong,i never said he wasn't good or liked by critics, i said he's not in the top echelon by a long shot and Spidey has been massive but a lot of that is to do with the character and the property not Raimi,it's like Donner and Superman.

Well, I agree. As much as I like Rodriguez t: ... no one in their right mind would put him in Scott, Spielberg, territory. I wouldn't. But, Michael Bay is definately not up there either. You actually think he is???

Well you mention "echelons." If you were to ask me (and I know you didn't), as a movie buff, these are (some) of the echelons I see (not in order of goodness):

1) "Pop" directors. Some critics call them hacks. The Puff Daddy's and NSYNC's of cinema. Examples: Roland Emmerich, Brett Ratner, Michael Bay.

2) Auteur directors. They garner cult followings. You discover them in your freshmen year in college through word of mouth... "you never heard of El Mariachi! You're kidding!" Examples: Rodriguez, Carpenter, Sam Raimi... and even Tim Burton. Lots of others. Cronenberg being another good one. They're Iggy Pops, Ramones, etc of Cinema.

3) The Masters. They mix 1 & 2 in a perfect way. All the pop success of 1 with the art and depth of 2. Examples: Spielberg, Scott, Cameron. The Beatles of cinema.

Really, I think Transformers deserves better than the Puff Daddy guys. That's all.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Well, I agree. As much as I like Rodriguez t: ... no one in their right mind would put him in Scott, Spielberg, territory. I wouldn't. But, Michael Bay is definately not up there either. You actually think he is???

Well you mention "echelons." If you were to ask me (and I know you didn't), as a movie buff, these are (some) of the echelons I see (not in order of goodness):

1) "Pop" directors. Some critics call them hacks. The Puff Daddy's and NSYNC's of cinema. Examples: Roland Emmerich, Brett Ratner, Michael Bay.

2) Auteur directors. They garner cult followings. You discover them in your freshmen year in college through word of mouth... "you never heard of El Mariachi! You're kidding!" Examples: Rodriguez, Carpenter, Sam Raimi... and even Tim Burton. Lots of others. Cronenberg being another good one. They're Iggy Pops, Ramones, etc of Cinema.

3) The Masters. They mix 1 & 2 in a perfect way. All the pop success of 1 with the art and depth of 2. Examples: Spielberg, Scott, Cameron. The Beatles of cinema.

Really, I think Transformers deserves better than the Puff Daddy guys. That's all.

No i don't think Bay is in their league at all lol i was simply replying to some of the Raimi stuff.For me Bay is a guy with the scope and ability to generate excitement on the level of those big guns but hasn't yet garnered the other part of adding nuance and heart into it,only on one occasion has he done that IMO and that was The Rock,he usually goes for balls out boys own stuff like Bad Boys or when he aims for heart he hits schmaltz like Pearl Harbour or Argmageddon which i still lovet:I see him as a much more exciting and imaginative director than the 2 you mentioned in group 1

With The Island he made two movies in one,with a better script i think we'd have gotten something akin to The Rock,hopefully he will hit that with TF.

Well you liking Rodriguez sees us finally have something in common

 

[The Dutch Hulk]

I think this is propper for this thread t:

 

[truth0ne SGC]

But, really, comparing Bay to Raimi is like comparing Puff Daddy to Eric B. & Rakeem. Or NSYNC to REM. Sure, you can like Puff Daddy.... but, come on. Be serious.

RAKIM. His name is Rakim.

 

[CFlash]

RAKIM. His name is Rakim.

Yes it is. I always get that wrong.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I'd say Bay is Em and Bruckheimer Dre,Raimi is Nellyt:

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Outside SM2 and Simple Plan i don't see anything special about Raimi and while Bay is some what dissmisive of fanboys they are rude about him so why shouldn't he be ?

Well, when you consider Raimi's track record he is recognized and critically acclaimed. The Gift? Simple Plan? Darkman? SM/SM2 and possibly SM3 could be the biggest highlight of his directing career?

And he's in the running to possibly direct The Hobbit? Granted he's not James Cameron, Ridley Scott, Spielberg, Peter Jackson, or Del Toro, but to simply easily dismiss him would be insane to do in my opinion.

Bay is a great action director if you're looking for a film with no substance and just mindless fun. But as someone who appreciates a good story I don't enjoy his films all that much. The Rock and Armageddon are the only ones that I could watch over and over.

In the end it's a matter of opinion. I'll still see Transformers, I just wish he'd give it a much more deeper and epic story than mindless action.

 

[zanos]

Well, I agree that he's not Scott, Spielberg, or Cameron. But you're wrong about the cult thing. It's not just Evil Dead. Xena had and prob still does have a massive cult following. Didn't you read my post?

You're also wrong about the "critically" thing. He has consistenly been recognized as an auteur by buffs and critics. But, he's never been given the money to make a blockbuster. Until now. And he knocked it out the park. That's gotta count for something.

Considering Raimi was given the biggest film budget in history at the time SM2 was made the film was just another standard cgi movie. The train fight was nice but it was hardly mind blowing. Cameron recreated the Titanic and sank it. You could actually see what the money was spent on. Raimi works better with smaller budgets. There are directors who simply don't know how to make films with huge budgets. Just ask Bryan Singer.

 

[Shedhut]

I'd say Bay is Em and Bruckheimer Dre,Raimi is Nellyt:

popculture-analogies...pricelesst:

 

[CFlash]

Considering Raimi was given the biggest film budget in history at the time SM2 was made the film was just another standard cgi movie. The train fight was nice but it was hardly mind blowing. Cameron recreated the Titanic and sank it. You could actually see what the money was spent on. Raimi works better with smaller budgets. There are directors who simply don't know how to make films with huge budgets. Just ask Bryan Singer.

Hmmm. I don't think I disagree with you. Very good point.

But, for me, the CGI in the Spidey movies was fine. It drew me in and did its job. No, it didn't blow me away like Jurassic Park did in 1993... but then again no movie really has since. More importantly, the story itself was driven in a perfect (sometimes brilliant) way. That (to me) is what good filmmaking is all about. CGI is there to complement the movie.... not overshadow it (someone tell this to George Lucas please).

I agree with your point tho.

 

[jdre_124]

I agree with Spider-man CGI. I think no film will ever surpass the CGI in Jurassic Park. It didnt introduce it but it raised the bar extremely high and made us think Dinosaurs can come back to life.

 

[Golgo-13]

Well most of the cgi for Spiderman, was animating Spiderman himself. We as humans know the human body and it's movements way too well, so it's hard to make a believable cgi stunt double of a human figure and make it 100% indistiguishable from the real thing. Dinosaurs on the other hand have been extinct for millions of years, so no one really know's how they moved, etc to compare it to the movie versions movements, so we accept the cgi dinosaurs in JP for what they are.

Let them try and animate another living creature, one that exists today, that we compare it too. A great example of this is 'Lake Placid', where the Alligator was cgi. We knew it was cgi because we have them alive today.

TF's cg will be great. Most cgi involving non-organic organisms usually are.