New Avengers vs. Old Avengers: Pros and Cons

[The Question]

Kang who got killed by a time anomally he himself created (the younger version of him). Magneto was possessed by the collective. And if you read one of my first posts in this thread I said the Annual and the Collective showed us glimpses of what the Avengers should be. It doesn't add up that they can take on the Collective and the Super Adaptoid, but struggle with Sauron and Electro.

Actually, it was recently shown that Electro got a major upgrade in terms of inteligence by taking some physics lessons from Doc Ock in prison. And really, that's all he needs to kick ass. He can absorb and redirect huge amounts of electricity. All he needs is some smarts and he'd be throwing down with the likes of Thor.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Kang who got killed by a time anomally he himself created (the younger version of him). Magneto was possessed by the collective. And if you read one of my first posts in this thread I said the Annual and the Collective showed us glimpses of what the Avengers should be. It doesn't add up that they can take on the Collective and the Super Adaptoid, but struggle with Sauron and Electro.

1) That wasn't THE Super Adaptoid. They would be dead if it were.

2) They SHOULD have struggled with Electro.

 

[BrianWilly]

It wasn't the New Avengers who handled the Void, it was the entire f'ing Marvel universe. And they had to rely on SHIELD to defeat the Collective, not to mention that more than half the team -- Spidey, Cage, Wolverine, Cap -- did nearly nothing in that fight.

 

[Sentry2005]

1) That wasn't THE Super Adaptoid. They would be dead if it were.

2) They SHOULD have struggled with Electro.

Electro who Spider-Man beats reguarly (despite power ups as far as I know)??

And the Super Adaptoid is a fair comment.. it wasn't THE Adaptoid, but it still doesn't make sense why they would Struggle with Sauron... I mean... it's freaking Sauron... My mum could beat the snot out of him.

 

[The Question]

Electro who Spider-Man beats reguarly (despite power ups as far as I know)??

As I said, all Dillon needs is some book learnin' and he'd be a major heavy hitter. And he recently received some book learnin' from Doc Ock. Last time he fought SPidey solo, he tore up half a city block and nearly sruched Spidey to death under a bunch of cars. He only lost because Spidey got lucky and escaped.

 

[Dread]

Electro who Spider-Man beats reguarly (despite power ups as far as I know)??

And the Super Adaptoid is a fair comment.. it wasn't THE Adaptoid, but it still doesn't make sense why they would Struggle with Sauron... I mean... it's freaking Sauron... My mum could beat the snot out of him.

Electro's had some upgrades and could be a credible threat, but he wasn't the Purple Man, who Bendis turned into some invincible demigod, so he wasn't interested.

Kidding aside, that is the problem with some villians. I actually LIKE that Purple Man got upgraded and reworked into a great fiend, but why can't this happen to other villians? It seems that villians either remain stagnant, degenerate into "jokes" like Rhino (honestly, who HASN'T beaten Rhino these days) or become anti-heroes and are removed from the stage, like the Thunderbolts. Or become overused to the point of insanity, like Osborn and Magneto.

And the New Avengers couldn't beat Sauron either, who mysteriously gained the power to spit fire.

 

[Sentry2005]

And the New Avengers couldn't beat Sauron either, who mysteriously gained the power to spit fire.

I know, what i'm saying is why couldn't they? Stupid Sauron

 

[Doc Destruction]

The man is a living generator. He once absorbed half of NYC's power grid.

He is almost Magneto levels. Someone just needs to write him that way.

 

[gildea]

Electro is definetly a credible threat.

I do accept though that if tony stark has "prep time" he can come up with something to neutralise his powers if he can take electro by surprise.

 

[Willowhugger]

Ummmm...

Didn't the fight against Electro go like this?

Electro: OH SH**!

Luke Cage: Is ASS WHOOPIN TIME! Web me up Spidey!

*Electro faints*

?

;-)

Wow, BIG STRUGGLE!

 

[Doc Destruction]

You mean like a force field out of nowhere? :roll

So tired of Iron God already.

 

[Dread]

I know, what i'm saying is why couldn't they? Stupid Sauron

Technically the New Avengers decided not to stop Silver Samurai either. He was all but written as someone who in theory could have given them trouble when in reality Spider-Man has EMBARRASSED him solo.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Ummmm...

Didn't the fight against Electro go like this?

Electro: OH SH**!

Luke Cage: Is ASS WHOOPIN TIME! Web me up Spidey!

*Electro faints*

?

;-)

Wow, BIG STRUGGLE!

EXACTLY. Crappy, lame, boring writing.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Technically the New Avengers decided not to stop Silver Samurai either. He was all but written as someone who in theory could have given them trouble when in reality Spider-Man has EMBARRASSED him solo.

And Wolverine has carved him up repeatedly.

 

[The Question]

Electro's had some upgrades and could be a credible threat, but he wasn't the Purple Man, who Bendis turned into some invincible demigod, so he wasn't interested.

Kidding aside, that is the problem with some villians. I actually LIKE that Purple Man got upgraded and reworked into a great fiend, but why can't this happen to other villians? It seems that villians either remain stagnant, degenerate into "jokes" like Rhino (honestly, who HASN'T beaten Rhino these days) or become anti-heroes and are removed from the stage, like the Thunderbolts. Or become overused to the point of insanity, like Osborn and Magneto.

Yeah. Personally, though, I don't think The Rhino should be a major threat. He should be a better written character, though. I kind of like to think of him as the less than inteligent but rather good natured fellow who commits crimes because it's the only thing he's good at.

 

[Willowhugger]

EXACTLY. Crappy, lame, boring writing.

I was just rebuttling to the idea that Electro gave them any trouble.

I like the idea that the Avengers can win fights against lesser villains without any threats, it establishes their street cred.

 

[Doc Destruction]

You mean like the Hand? Oh, that's right they lost...hmmmm.

 

[PWN3R]

Electro is definetly a credible threat.

I do accept though that if tony stark has "prep time" he can come up with something to neutralise his powers if he can take electro by surprise.

There is only one that is capable of this "prep time" and he isn't a New Avenger.


























































Well that was very noobish.

 

[Dread]

Yeah. Personally, though, I don't think The Rhino should be a major threat. He should be a better written character, though. I kind of like to think of him as the less than inteligent but rather good natured fellow who commits crimes because it's the only thing he's good at.

The character seemed to peak in "Flowers for Rhino", which was a TANGLED WEB story that got critical acclaim for blatently ripping off FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON, and before and since he's just been a lug. But can't he at least be a challenge? Or maybe actually beat someone? At this point he's gone from being able to wrestle Gray Hulk to being merely a step above The Hand and Random Goons from the "Instant Beat-o-Meter" scale of loser-threats.

Ironically, ANOTHER tanker who's become a cheesecake lug, the Wrecker, was actually treated as a credible threat in NEW AVENGERS, and was a threat the team actually rallied to defeat. It was great. Why can't we see more of this?

 

[gildea]

I was just rebuttling to the idea that Electro gave them any trouble.

I like the idea that the Avengers can win fights against lesser villains without any threats, it establishes their street cred.

I didn't say he did, I'm saying that he could.

Heck I included in the post that I accepted the reasoning as to why there wasn't a big fight.

I just think its unfair to dismiss a character acting logically and well within their abilities (iron man) as "crap writing".

 

[Sentry2005]

I was just rebuttling to the idea that Electro gave them any trouble.

I like the idea that the Avengers can win fights against lesser villains without any threats, it establishes their street cred.

What?

Iron Man: Hey, noob... i'm going to beat you ****less with my pulse lasers
Petty Theif: Um...
Iron Man: It increases me street cred.

 

[Willowhugger]

They beat the Hand as I recall.

Here's the history of the New Avengers as near as I can tell...

These are the moments I object to in the comic.

1. Defeated 50 or so villains the RAFT and kept them from escaping (Carnage killed).
2. Arrested Electro.
3. Defeated Sauron.
4. Got their asses kicked by the Thunderbolts. (Another moment of Hank Pym ass****)
5. Defeated a bunch of ninjas and lost Madame Hydra.
6. Defeated the Wrecker.
7. Destroyed the Void.
8. Killed The Collective/Xorn and lost Magneto.
9. Defeated the Super-Yelenatoid (a hideous waste of Black Widow's only supporting character)
10. Get Disassembled by the Civil War.

Now what am I missing?

 

[The Question]

The character seemed to peak in "Flowers for Rhino", which was a TANGLED WEB story that got critical acclaim for blatently ripping off FLOWERS FOR ALGERNON, and before and since he's just been a lug. But can't he at least be a challenge? Or maybe actually beat someone? At this point he's gone from being able to wrestle Gray Hulk to being merely a step above The Hand and Random Goons from the "Instant Beat-o-Meter" scale of loser-threats.

Very true. Way I see it, Rhino should be a choice mercenary. Everyone wants to hire him because he can hold off bassically anything. Not a criminal mastermind, but fully capable off an entire SWAT team and most pesky costumes crime fighters while his cohorts make off with the goods.

Ironically, ANOTHER tanker who's become a cheesecake lug, the Wrecker, was actually treated as a credible threat in NEW AVENGERS, and was a threat the team actually rallied to defeat. It was great. Why can't we see more of this?

Not sure. And really, I always liked the wrecking crew. They're basically a gang of petty theives who one day got god-like strength and invlunerability.

 

[Willowhugger]

What?

Iron Man: Hey, noob... i'm going to beat you ****less with my pulse lasers
Petty Theif: Um...
Iron Man: It increases me street cred.

Electro is alittle above a petty thief. Still, it reminds us that a long/drawn out fight with Spiderman isn't going to happen with five or so.

And what I loved about the Wrecker story was that it reminded people that the Wrecking Crew is pretty damn powerful and scary. The Thunderbolts story made a bunch of B-list villains the supposedly A-list team.

 

[Sentry2005]

Electro is alittle above a petty thief. Still, it reminds us that a long/drawn out fight with Spiderman isn't going to happen with five or so.

Yeah, but you said you liked seeing the Avengers take on lesser people to build up their street cred... that seems dumb to me. Because of my said example.