The Dark Knight "Not your grandpa's Batman..."

[The Kid]

No, you said something clearly designed to prompt someone to mention "Superman Returns". Then, somebody did (followed by a couple of "Man, you fell for the bait!" responses), and then you launched into your usual "Why Superman Returns is better than Batman Begins" schtick.

But really, there's nothing more tedious than arguing about the cause of an argument, so let's not. So back to discussion on Nolan's reasons for updating...

just read the posts please. I actually tried to back out of being baited into a bb vs sr discussion...

You've got the wrong guy, boss

 

[DieSmiling]

i think it doesn't function well enough to afford even a second of screen time, that's all. I'd just have left the thing out since it did't do much more than serve a plot device that really wasn't necessary. Same with the bat helmet breaking. I don't know why we needed to know he ordered faulty bat cowls... hey, some stuff was just a little over-done in begins, I think. it's not that big a deal now... it was just something I used to back up why I personally was bored with parts of the movie and possibly why temple's girlfriend was.

moving on to the big sequel coming out next year...

See, I agree about the helmet breaking, but not the arrowhead. It had a defined purpose and functioned well.

 

[The Batman]

hey, i like the movies too, and i like the characters, but i'm not going to worry about if a movie does well or if grandma and grandpa like it or not. i'm not going to let my life be affected by something so trivial. save the worrying for politics, government, family, etc.

Well, good for you, isnt it, sparky? Now who's being arrogant and overbearing? lol...

 

[Sccmj23]

Well, good for you, isnt it, sparky? Now who's being arrogant and overbearing? lol...

THANK YOU! Thats the point I was trying to make 2 pages back. t:

 

[MaskedManJRK]

You've got the wrong guy, boss

WESYEED: I didn't kill my wife!
KEYSER SOZE: I don't care!

t:

 

[JTIZZLEVILLE]

See, I agree about the helmet breaking, but not the arrowhead. It had a defined purpose and functioned well.

Exactly. It was meant to convey Bruce's climb to regain the person he was as a child. Rachel keeping the arrow head showed her remembering the man Bruce used to be.

It's really hard to have a movies discussion with Wesyeed when he doesn't even know what happens in the movie.

By the way, Superman Returns was a beautiful movie...even if it was extremely boring.

 

[superkong 500]

TDK maybe become a great film or a not so good one. It may be nolan's batman returns we don't know that nor we will until we actually see the movie. However people most understand that there will never be a definitive on-screen batman simply because there's always going to be an artistic vision from each director(no matter how good or bad it is) that will not be the same of other people.

There's just no way that everyone is going to be satisfied with nolan's version of batman nor other directors. It doesn't matter how many batman films get made in the future. As to what the original poster said
I understand the concern of thinking that nolan may be changing things to make them fresh and not the same that we have seen before while maintaining the core elements that make this characters so iconic. But there's a contradiction within all of this and maybe nolan sees it I would say its very probable. On one hand he has to come with a good story that represents those characters the best. On the other hand he has to add a distinctive visual style, his own personal taste without alienating the fans. That's not an easy task, Iam sure he has though about what people(specially fans) think/want specially with the franchise's past misadventures.

He knows there has to be a balance between the visual iconography of the source material and his own style. A lot of people will not like it that's for sure, but the problem is that as an artist he can't always be thinking about what people want or don't want.
He knows that everything most be recognizable. But One of the reasons he wanted to do this (Iam sure) is to bring something new to the table while staying true to the world and themes of batman. I believe he understands the character very well.

My point is that people have to stop for a minute and think that sometimes we don't know that we wanted something until it was revealed to us. To prove if something works we most take risks and that's what nolan is doing really and he should. I know for a fact that if someone came here in 2004 before the tumbler was seen in action for the first time and said that it would be cool if batman had this huge monster tanklike vehicle for a batmobile almost everyone would have disagreed with him an even bash his opinion. Same goes for the batsuit or everything else. But it worked when we saw it. Iam sure alot of people that hated the tumbler now love it and praise it. If nolan had not taken the risk to introduce that monster we would have missed on such a great vehicle. The same goes to the extreme look of the joker on the new batsuit the cycle ect. Maybe it will not work out the same way but we can't pass judment until we've seen everything in action.

As to the audience itself, the average moviegoer will bash alot of of things(but then again fans will too) but others will love the them. It has been stated already that nolan's batman will never be completely kid friendly. But for all the creative freedom Nolan has WB has the last word. So that even though this will be dark it will never come to being something that children or family could not watch, and not even nolan will want it that way.

 

[metalhead971]

As to the audience itself, the average moviegoer will bash alot of of things(but then again fans will too) but others will love the them. It has been stated already that nolan's batman will never be completely kid friendly. But for all the creative freedom Nolan has WB has the last word. So that even though this will be dark it will never come to being something that children or family could not watch, and not even nolan will want it that way.

I agree. These movies are much darker than their predecessors, yes, but overall, they're still kid friendly. Kids these days aren't easily fooled, and they're not easily entertained by silly cartoons and things like that. Most kids will enjoy and appreciate these Batman films as much as the adults that love them. Batman will always appeal more to the kids, because the ideals and the motives of Batman will always reflect more of the kids in us, to whom Justice, Courage, and Truth are ideals that are incorruptible. If it ever gets to the point of being Adults-Only Batman, WB will pull another B&R and force themselves on the director. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[LexLuthor]

Yes that arrowhead. forgive me if my memory isn't perfect. Whatever part of the movie it was. it was superfluous.

Let's look at the arrowhead as a symbol of sorts. After the young Bruce found the arrowhead, he fell into the dark cave and was frightened by a bat. The arrowhead can symbolize that this is the direction that he will take in his life. When he gave the arrowhead to Rachel that can be seen as him giving up his innocence and taking a new direction in his life since he was faced with a terror. He experienced something that showed him that life is not all fun and games and thus the natural order of his childhood was sort of in chaos at the moment, which was definitely made bigger when his parents were killed. When Rachel gave him back the arrowhead, that can be seen as Bruce getting his life back in order as he realizes his position in the society/his purpose in life as Batman.

Ehh, maybe I went a little far in what may or may not was there. But, that's how I see.

......................................"I'm batman"........

 

[IamtheBatman]

This hasn't been our grandpa's Batman since Batman 89'.

 

[BubbaGump]

My dad loved Batman Begins, and he's more of an action/no-plot kinda guy (Rambo).

However, some of my friends actually thought it was boring. I can understand that. I would be bored to if I wasn't so Bat-core. But I'm not because as a reader of the comics I see so many new and fresh things in BB--things which the casual movie goer probably won't understand.

The weird thing is--action sequences are boring to me. I actually like movies with lots of plot and talking. Action sequences just get in the way. Sure, a bit of fighting is good now and then, but in moderation.

 

[Keyser Soze]

This hasn't been our grandpa's Batman since Batman 89'.

In all fairness, "our grandpa's Batman" is probably Adam West in the 60s TV show.

 

[BubbaGump]

Let's look at the arrowhead as a symbol of sorts. After the young Bruce found the arrowhead, he fell into the dark cave and was frightened by a bat. The arrowhead can symbolize that this is the direction that he will take in his life. When he gave the arrowhead to Rachel that can be seen as him giving up his innocence and taking a new direction in his life since he was faced with a terror. He experienced something that showed him that life is not all fun and games and thus the natural order of his childhood was sort of in chaos at the moment, which was definitely made bigger when his parents were killed. When Rachel gave him back the arrowhead, that can be seen as Bruce getting his life back in order as he realizes his position in the society/his purpose in life as Batman.

Ehh, maybe I went a little far in what may or may not was there. But, that's how I see.

......................................"I'm batman"........

Arrow = direction. Damn, I knew it meant something. I'm not as good with symbolism. Practically missed everything in Arkham Asylum (except the moon/coin thing).

 

[Conebone69]

Something has been concerning me, to an extent.

It feels like Nolan is worried that he's giving us a story that we all know and love, and it's pretty much standard Batman folklore.... so therefore, he has to make things dramatically different, just so we don't recognize what we've grown up with for years.

For example, who doesn't know the story of Batman's feud with Joker, or Joker's plot to destroy Gotham, or Harvey Dent's relationship to Batman and Gordon (Power of 3), and how Harvey is scarred, later becoming Two-Face? You can literally read this stuff right now by opening up your copy of The Long Halloween, The Killing Joke, Joker's Five-Way Revenge, The Man Who Laughs, and maybe even Year One still.

Batman Begins wasn't really standard folklore, because we were introduced to a lot of new stuff. We had never seen Ra's, Scarecrow, or Falcone on the big screen before, we didn't know who the hell Rachel Dawes was because she was written specifically for the movie, we never read in the comics about Bruce's seven-year absence from Gotham (years differ), because it was never presented to us. We never could've imagined that Henri Ducard would actually be the REAL Ra's Al Ghul (unless you spoiled yourself), because there's never been a story like that before.

The reason why I'm scared about TDK, is because we're not getting anything "new" to us this time, and because of that, it almost feels like Nolan is changing it up, just so it seems fresh. There's NOTHING wrong with adapting to the modern world, but when you see a Joker with big gashes going up to his ears, a Batman with heavily-padded armor, and an exotic "Bat-Pod", this is stuff you wouldn't see in most comics.

Now, before you think I'm bashing Nolan, I'm not. I really love what Nolan is doing. I totally respect this vision, and I've been 100% satisfied with everything I've seen so far (yes, I like Joker's appearance). I can't wait for this movie.

The issue I have... is the older audience. Old people went to Batman Begins, and hell... I saw a GROUP of old WOMEN go together, maybe in their late 50's - early 60's. Batman Begins appealed to a wide audience, much like Spider-Man, but the difference is, Spider-Man caters to the younger kids and the family-oriented. Batman Begins catered to a wide range of ADULTS. I babysitted an 8 year-old who was extremely bored with BB, because "there was too much talking", and I even sat down with my 19 year old girlfriend to watch BB, and even SHE said, "this is kinda boring."
Therefore, I definitely think BB was for a more mature, adult audience.

So if that is the audience that is expected to come to "The Dark Knight", will the older people who grew up with Batman (the serials, Adam West, the comics, the 60's cartoon, and all those Jack Nicholson-worshippers who say he can do no wrong), be turned off by this new vision of Joker and Batman?

It almost feels like this is too extreme (not for us, obviously.. nothing is too extreme for our generation, especially for me).

So if the old people are turned off by TDK, and the parents don't want to take their little kids to TDK because The Joker is too scary and gortesque.... we're losing two VERY big demographics, which makes me wonder if this movie might make less money than BB.
Am I wrong? Please discuss... I need to stop worrying, lol.

My whole family loved BB and especially my grandpa

 

[Green Goblin 1964]

okay....now.....this is MADNESS!! this a thread about old people liking the dark knight.....you gotta be kidding me!!

screw the old geesers I will enjoy the Dark Knight my self.ergh...

 

[Sccmj23]

My dad loved Batman Begins, and he's more of an action/no-plot kinda guy (Rambo).

However, some of my friends actually thought it was boring. I can understand that. I would be bored to if I wasn't so Bat-core. But I'm not because as a reader of the comics I see so many new and fresh things in BB--things which the casual movie goer probably won't understand.

I couldve said the EXACT same thing and it would've all been true for me. All of my friends who arent Batman fans already or dont have at least a decent understanding of the history of the Batman comics and films didnt like BB. I on the other hand, am very Bat-core (nice term btw) so I appreciated BB a lot more than the average movie-goer.

 

[BubbaGump]

I couldve said the EXACT same thing and it would've all been true for me. All of my friends who arent Batman fans already or dont have at least a decent understanding of the history of the Batman comics and films didnt like BB. I on the other hand, am very Bat-core (nice term btw) so I appreciated BB a lot more than the average movie-goer.

Glad you liked the term. I'm hoping I'm original.

"wow, you're so bat-core"

"that book is bat-core"

 

[wikum]

Something has been concerning me, to an extent.

It feels like Nolan is worried that he's giving us a story that we all know and love, and it's pretty much standard Batman folklore.... so therefore, he has to make things dramatically different, just so we don't recognize what we've grown up with for years.

For example, who doesn't know the story of Batman's feud with Joker, or Joker's plot to destroy Gotham, or Harvey Dent's relationship to Batman and Gordon (Power of 3), and how Harvey is scarred, later becoming Two-Face? You can literally read this stuff right now by opening up your copy of The Long Halloween, The Killing Joke, Joker's Five-Way Revenge, The Man Who Laughs, and maybe even Year One still.

Batman Begins wasn't really standard folklore, because we were introduced to a lot of new stuff. We had never seen Ra's, Scarecrow, or Falcone on the big screen before, we didn't know who the hell Rachel Dawes was because she was written specifically for the movie, we never read in the comics about Bruce's seven-year absence from Gotham (years differ), because it was never presented to us. We never could've imagined that Henri Ducard would actually be the REAL Ra's Al Ghul (unless you spoiled yourself), because there's never been a story like that before.

The reason why I'm scared about TDK, is because we're not getting anything "new" to us this time, and because of that, it almost feels like Nolan is changing it up, just so it seems fresh. There's NOTHING wrong with adapting to the modern world, but when you see a Joker with big gashes going up to his ears, a Batman with heavily-padded armor, and an exotic "Bat-Pod", this is stuff you wouldn't see in most comics.

Now, before you think I'm bashing Nolan, I'm not. I really love what Nolan is doing. I totally respect this vision, and I've been 100% satisfied with everything I've seen so far (yes, I like Joker's appearance). I can't wait for this movie.

The issue I have... is the older audience. Old people went to Batman Begins, and hell... I saw a GROUP of old WOMEN go together, maybe in their late 50's - early 60's. Batman Begins appealed to a wide audience, much like Spider-Man, but the difference is, Spider-Man caters to the younger kids and the family-oriented. Batman Begins catered to a wide range of ADULTS. I babysitted an 8 year-old who was extremely bored with BB, because "there was too much talking", and I even sat down with my 19 year old girlfriend to watch BB, and even SHE said, "this is kinda boring."
Therefore, I definitely think BB was for a more mature, adult audience.

So if that is the audience that is expected to come to "The Dark Knight", will the older people who grew up with Batman (the serials, Adam West, the comics, the 60's cartoon, and all those Jack Nicholson-worshippers who say he can do no wrong), be turned off by this new vision of Joker and Batman?

It almost feels like this is too extreme (not for us, obviously.. nothing is too extreme for our generation, especially for me).

So if the old people are turned off by TDK, and the parents don't want to take their little kids to TDK because The Joker is too scary and gortesque.... we're losing two VERY big demographics, which makes me wonder if this movie might make less money than BB.
Am I wrong? Please discuss... I need to stop worrying, lol.

I really enjoyed reading your post. I understand your concerns. At the end of the day, I don't really give a **** about box office money, nor do i care about what the little kiddies want. I want a Batman film that I LOVE and the majority of Batman fans love. I was 7 when I first watched B89. I would say in many ways B89 was more adult orientated than Batman Begins. I loved every single minute of it.

For trying to make a big buget Batman film that kids will love, see Joel Schumacer.

I watched a very interesting interview with Chris Nolan when he was doing press interviews for the Pretige. He said something along the lines of "Just because a film is aimed at a mature audience, doens't mean kids won't get it. The kid's might even get it before the adults"...I couldn't have said it better myself.

Oh and I am certain The Dark Knight will deliver in a very big way, for all audiences.

 

[Batty Belfry]

My mom's boyfriend, 65 years old, really dislikes sci-fi/fantasy/genre-type films bought BB after viewing it at my house. He's a Civil War Buff and likes historical type dramas. I couldn't believe it. When I found out that he loved it and bought the movie, I was joyed and in total disbelief.

I can understand where you're coming from Temple, we all have those nagging doubts, some more than others I guess...

Of course I like Batman as a character, but I really love Nolan's take on it, and his style of story telling. The Prestige is also another favorite in my collection. So for me a large part of it has to do with the way Nolan approaches the subject. BB changed the way I looked at a comic film.

I went to see the new Superman with an open mind as I really liked what Singer did with X-Men, and I was dissapointed. I felt that it had a golden opportunity that was kind of wasted. It had some promise and some potential, but left me thinking, "is this it?!"

I don't think you have too much to be concerned about. Like I said, we all have doubts here and there, but I do honestly feel that Nolan understands the universe and the characters he is playing with. I think TDK is going to be the epic Batman movie so many have wanted for so long.