Official Contest of Marvels II Discussion Thread

[JewishHobbit]

I'm going to mention something that I was talking to Phaed about a few days back over PM's. I was telling him that I'm pretty CoM'd out right now and that I was debating on not co-running a season 3 and just retiring from it. However, being that we're in the thick of this season, it isn't fair for me to say I won't be back, as I could easily change my mind before the time comes for season 3.

That said, we were talking and we think it may be a good idea for us all to take a hiatus after this season like we did after season 1 (maybe a little longer) and see how we feel after that. One of our seasons can really wear a person out, let alone those of us who have played in both our seasons. We aren't bringing the Contest to a close, and we aren't looking for new hosts any time soon... we're just going to take an extended break for a while after the close of this season. If there is enough interest to keep it going without a hiatus, we'll discuss that, but I think this is best for all of us.


Now... being that we will most probably be taking this hiatus, this will free up anyone who has interest in participating in the DTL whenever W and JB decide to get that started again. I don't know if I'll be playing in it or not, but I fully endorse that game and will testify at how awsome it is. I was one of the founding memebers when JB first structured and started it how it is to this day and I played 2 full seasons. It takes a lot of time but it is a blast. I'd be at work thinking about it, excited to get home and put new tactics and gameplays into play with my team against whoever I face. You build your team how you like it (within confines) and you get to write out how you woul want to see the battles. The competition is a lot of fun, though it can at times get heated, moreso than here (I keep a leash on the debates.... the DTL guys aren't as strict as I am). W can probably get a better description of how the DTL works, and I fully endorse him if he wishes to promote the DTL here. If you like the Contest of Marvels, I took a little of the formula from the DTL to make this contest, so I'm sure you'll like it there too. Give it a shot, you'll love it.

 

[wiegeabo]

And one more thing about the DTL if you think you may be too burned out for it, we do allow co-owners of teams. So you can partner up with one person and take turns writing up battles each week. There are a couple of rules about it, which I can't remember right now, but it lets people participate who may have time contraiints.

That being said, I don't mind a long break between CoM seasons, but you better come back for season 3 JH!

 

[primemover]

Co-owning is the way to go, especially for me as I would not be able to run a team on my own like I did for those two seasons.

An idea for CoM I had bounding in my head, and maybe it will freshen things up a bit and in it's own way make people look forward for each succeeding season. That is to split the characters into two groups, and to borrow terms from the DTL, ubers and regulars, and hold shorter seasons(half the size).

One thing I get frustrated with is seeing a great character get taken out of the tournament due to being overpowered. I had this happen with The Black Knight taking on The Demolisher, he had no chance beyond my opponent not debating. Now the competition is out one of the cooler and characters with tons of possibilities.

The shorter seasons would make the season in general seem less long and laborous, and altering from regulars to ubers would add anticipation for the next season so people can get to use those characters.

The actual splitting of the characters shouldn't be too hard, as we have a slew of ex-DTL members around here that are masters at ranking

 

[Ahura Mazda]

Just want to say that i am open to partnering with someone for the DTL.

 

[Phaedrus45]

I totally am down with the hiatus and supporting the DTL's probable upcoming season.

One thing I'd like to get done at the end of the season, though, while everything is fresh in our minds is select those characters we think should be dropped if/when Season 3 comes up. Nothing is worse than trying to remember a character who you haven't looked at for ages and determining if they should be kept or dropped from future competitions. Adding new characters wouldn't happen until Season 3 gets close, because new characters might emerge from Marvel who we'd like to see enter the competition.

Also, if any rule changes should be made, the end of the season would be a good time to bring it up. Again, everything is fresh in our minds. I will say that I like most of how we set up Season 2, even with the brackets. When JH started this and I was helping him out, I think we both had the vision that 1) the main goal of the contest was to discover the baddest of the bad and 2) we wanted the random element of this contest to be one of the things that made it as fair as possible and unique to us. I know it would be nice to have the characters divided up into different categories; but, we give everyone a chance at the beginning of the season to pick their favorite or most powerful characters. (Sadly, that's why you got a bit screwed, Prime...you didn't have the chance to pick the best of the best; but, instead got the sloppy seconds of two people who dropped out long before you came along.) Those of us who are doing better than others are doing it mainly because we really thought out our lists at the beginning of the season. And, in the end, only one person comes away the winner. You can have the worst list or the worst luck of the draw when it comes to making the random brackets; but, all you need is that one character.

 

[Phaedrus45]

A question concerning location. This weeks location is suppose to be the Danger Room. Thinking about it, that might be tough. Do we have a particular scenario playing out, like Days of Future Past, have the danger room active, like we used to see in old X-Men comics where they are just dodging stuff being thrown at them, or do we just keep it an empty room? Should this location be negated and should we just do the next one in order, Alcatraz?

Please, any input is appreciated. I won't start debating until I get a general idea what some of you think.

 

[wiegeabo]

Let's avoid the issue and just skip and use Alcatraz now. That way we have a week to discuss the Danger Room, and if we decide to use it, we can do so next week.

 

[Harlekin]

I'm with Wieg.

 

[Phaedrus45]

Location: Alcatraz

Alcatraz
Californian island prison, operational 1859-1963, held superhuman criminals in the 1940's. First appeared in Marvel Mystery Comics #25 (1941).


(This is probably going to be just your basic prison. Figure you are going to expect what you'd see in our world, unless anyone comes up with information different in their research. It will be in today's time; so, the basic prison stands, but it's been a tourist spot for some time. Also, nobody really has to worry about security features, like we've had with previous prisons. Also, you can go outside the prison; you just can't leave the island. Flight is possible, but within reason, as JH stated. Let's say 1/4 of a mile in the air is alright.)

 

[Phaedrus45]

Debating May Begin!!!

 

[primemover]

So no interest or concern at all to the power differences between the characters and a possible fix for it?

 

[Phaedrus45]

I'm up to discussing it. I would like to get JH's thoughts, as this is mainly his contest. The only thing I can see is that eventually, as it's currently set up, the winning of the less uber category is going to have to face an uber character. (Plus, there have been numerous times, though not so frequently, where a good debator has taken a weaker character and made them defeat a more uber character.)

 

[wiegeabo]

To help make up for it, we could have a prize for best non-uber character. Whoever takes their underpowered characters the farthest could get a small batch of comics as a prize. Makes it sort of an 'iron-man' competition (no pun).

 

[primemover]

One thing I'd like to get done at the end of the season, though, while everything is fresh in our minds is select those characters we think should be dropped if/when Season 3 comes up.

The type of characters I want to see booted are 'do anything' magic users like Dr. Strange, near unlimited power copiers like Mimic, 'create anything' inventors like Forge, and near untouchable characters like Zeitgeist(I know he's not in the league, but there is somebody like him, can't remember though).

The reasons are it makes for weak debates where one side is trumps the other with little creativity beyond saying they'd come up with a trump for that. These things make me not want to debate at all, characters with limitations are so much more fun.

Also, if any rule changes should be made, the end of the season would be a good time to bring it up. Again, everything is fresh in our minds. I will say that I like most of how we set up Season 2, even with the brackets. When JH started this and I was helping him out, I think we both had the vision that 1) the main goal of the contest was to discover the baddest of the bad and 2) we wanted the random element of this contest to be one of the things that made it as fair as possible and unique to us. I know it would be nice to have the characters divided up into different categories; but, we give everyone a chance at the beginning of the season to pick their favorite or most powerful characters. (Sadly, that's why you got a bit screwed, Prime...you didn't have the chance to pick the best of the best; but, instead got the sloppy seconds of two people who dropped out long before you came along.) Those of us who are doing better than others are doing it mainly because we really thought out our lists at the beginning of the season. And, in the end, only one person comes away the winner. You can have the worst list or the worst luck of the draw when it comes to making the random brackets; but, all you need is that one character.

Having the choice to what characters you have is one thing, but that would leave out really great characters in the competition because people would be more concerned with winning. This is why there were power classes in the DTL, and that made it really interesting.

The biggest things I'd like to see changed have to do with scheduling, having 6 matches one week then 0 matches the next is really annoying, for one reason as you don't get to compete that week, another is I barely can handle 3 matches in week, let alone any more. I can't see how spreading these out would be a problem.

Another thing is people going against themselves, in my eyes this needs to be fixed. Losing a character for that reason would really anger me, especially if it's a top of the line character, luck of the draw or not, at the end of the day it's annoying and can be rectified.

 

[primemover]

I'm up to discussing it. I would like to get JH's thoughts, as this is mainly his contest. The only thing I can see is that eventually, as it's currently set up, the winning of the less uber category is going to have to face an uber character. (Plus, there have been numerous times, though not so frequently, where a good debator has taken a weaker character and made them defeat a more uber character.)

Why would they have to fight? I am talking about altering the seasons between ubers and regulars, and that character being the winner for that season.

 

[JewishHobbit]

As for divying up the characters into Ubers and Regs... I can see potential in it, but I'd have to give it thought. One problem I can see in it though is when we divy them into the two categories, there's those characters that will fall in the middle that will be a head ache to place. No matter where we place them, they'll be tough to figure out, as they'd be crappy low end characters in the uber market.... but almost too uber for the regular market. The same arguments would happen and we'd have even more complaining about how this character should have been a reg and this character should have been an uber.... etc. I'm not against doing it, but I'm still cautious at the moment. I do kinda like W's suggestion though, of having a Reg. prize for whoever takes their reg farthest. And as Phaed said, a good debate can often trump an uber with a reg. Going in, who would have thought I could have had Nico beat Thunderstrike.... and nearly beat Tri-Sentinel. Heck, I even almost pulled off a Skin vs Vidar match.... and had a good showing for a Mondo Vs Thor. It can be done, it just takes more effort. I think one way to solve that issue is to just make sure everyone is reading and voting honestly instead of just assuming a character would win because of their power.

As for the mention of how many matches you can have in a week and spreading them out.... I can tell you now that that isn't going to change. That is completely luck of the draw and I don't see a fair way to make it any differant. We draw the matches before we draw characters so that there's no room for anyone to think Phaed, W, or I cheated or played favorates in the placing of our characters. It's absolutely the fairest route. I'm up for other suggestions, but I don't see this changing in the coming future.

 

[wiegeabo]

The type of characters I want to see booted are 'do anything' magic users like Dr. Strange, near unlimited power copiers like Mimic, 'create anything' inventors like Forge, and near untouchable characters like Zeitgeist(I know he's not in the league, but there is somebody like him, can't remember though).

The reasons are it makes for weak debates where one side is trumps the other with little creativity beyond saying they'd come up with a trump for that. These things make me not want to debate at all, characters with limitations are so much more fun.

A lot of these problems can be taken care of by owners spending some time on their draft lists. Designing the list right gets you those ubers, and those one sided regs that have a good shot at taking out ubers.

The biggest things I'd like to see changed have to do with scheduling, having 6 matches one week then 0 matches the next is really annoying, for one reason as you don't get to compete that week, another is I barely can handle 3 matches in week, let alone any more. I can't see how spreading these out would be a problem.

Another thing is people going against themselves, in my eyes this needs to be fixed. Losing a character for that reason would really anger me, especially if it's a top of the line character, luck of the draw or not, at the end of the day it's annoying and can be rectified.

Not fighting yourself in the first round (which is all that can be guaranteed), isn't too hard. The drafting program can build a schedule like that that is still random (just not quite as random). But there's no way to prevent it from happening in later rounds. The far more difficult thing is evening out the number of matches because it takes away from the randomness of the brackets (as does not fighting yourself). I don't see a fair way of doing it.

 

[Phaedrus45]

JH said it pretty good. This is mainly the reason I want to make sure we eliminate some of the contestants when this is over and it's fresh in our minds. We do want to make this less uber; just some characters seemed to squeek through this season...but, much less than last season. Most of your considerations for removal I agree with, Prime. Magic users should probably be removed. I'm not too sure about removing total mimic-type characters...they always seem to get defeated. But, I see a reason to eliminate someone like Mimic or Gideon. (Generally, we let people suggest removals and if the votes side with removal, we go ahead. We also have a category of remove, but consider when we make the final roster, which is really helpful, too.)

Right before JH started Contest of Marvels, I got really interested in Sparta's thread; but, I wished characters eliminated would be removed and a total winner could be figured out. (After all, it was called Marvel Character Tournament; but, it didn't turn out to be much of a tournament.) So, I made my own tournament thread that didn't get very much attention. Basically, it was a combination of Sparta's thread and JH's (although, JH hadn't made his pitch for CoM yet). I made brackets that everyone could vote on, but slimmed it down into categories. I was only able to do my first category, which was Generation X. I took heroes and villians who were mainly associated with Gen X and made sure I had equal number to make a bracket out of. Then, I just let everyone vote. The winner would advance to an ultimate bracket of the top winners. I also made sure the brackets were random with a drawing, same as we do with JH's CoM.

Of course, that failed. I was only getting about 5-7 voters. Luckily, JH came along right before I put the tournament out of its misery and told me about his thoughts for Contest of Marvels, and would I be interested. The rest is history. JH realized how big the contest was going to be, and he started to go through some tough times at home. I told him I would help out in any way I could. I was really grateful JH came along when he did. If he didn't, I probably would have given up on The Hype a long time ago, and this thing really keeps me interested at work when it's as slow as can be.

 

[hippy fascist]

Phaed :heart: Jewhobs

 

[JewishHobbit]

Man, I had no idea what I was getting into when I made this beast. I used to make these little tournaments when I was a kid and drew the names out of a hat and fairly played out each match in my head and tried not to be biased (failing often). Then for fun I made a huge 1200 or so character tournament and played it out and had so much fun. I remember Joseph winning that tournament in my head, but I just never felt fulfilled because I never really knew if he trully deserved to win. At the time I was finishing up with the DTL and I just had the thought to create this contest. I remember getting ahold of several DTLers, Phaed, Sparta, and a few others to see if there'd be an interest. I planned on giving out my own prizes, which was Amazing Spiderman 121 and 122 (death of Gwen and Norman) and I was stoked. I think we had around 20 people signed up to play eagerly.... then the hard times hit that Phaed mentioned and I had to sell those comics so I could buy food for the family and pay some bills and I thought the contest was a bust before it even began. We had a lot of drop outs, but Phaed came along on his white horse, offering prizes and offering his help, and without him this thing would have died long ago. POWdER-Man and W were big helps as well. I honestly don't have time to lead this tourney and I think Phaed is the one who keeps it going. Dude's awsome. One of these days when I get my situations all lined up again, I'm going to go all out and buy some of my own prizes for this thing and give Phaed a break.

Though good news... my wife, mother, and I have finally gotten our house out of forclosure and have paid the last of the ampped morgage payments we were required to pay to save the house after my stepfather desided to not pay anymore without telling my mom... so that's going to end up saving us all about 600 bucks a months, and my wife's school loans will be paid off here in about 3 to 4 months, saving an extra 200 or so a month. Then we just focus on the credit cards and we'll be good. If all goes as planned (and when does it ever go as planned) we will be completely dept free this time next year. Here's hoping!

Anyhow, Yeah, it's been a fun ride thus far, and while I'm completely COM'd out, I think I'll be fine after a long hiatus. I think I really just need time away from the computer and just focus on the family, work, church, and my book (which I'm almost done with!). I need to just get less busy for a while and cool down. Once I regain my bearings, I should be ready for another round of Contest. I don't think I'm going to be getting a team in the DTL, but I may consider co-owning a team. I don't know, still debating it all. The co-owning thing sounds nice, but I'm anal retentive and it'd bug me if I don't get to design my team how I like it. We'll see.

Hmm, and I can't find anyone to come over and play Risk with me! I'm bored. I might work on my book soon. I'm rambling so bad it isn't funny!

 

[JewishHobbit]

Phaed :heart: Jewhobs

Jewhobs slipped Phaed $

 

[hippy fascist]

 

[hippy fascist]

edit: Damn your eyes

 

[primemover]

As for divying up the characters into Ubers and Regs... I can see potential in it, but I'd have to give it thought. One problem I can see in it though is when we divy them into the two categories, there's those characters that will fall in the middle that will be a head ache to place. No matter where we place them, they'll be tough to figure out, as they'd be crappy low end characters in the uber market.... but almost too uber for the regular market. The same arguments would happen and we'd have even more complaining about how this character should have been a reg and this character should have been an uber.... etc. I'm not against doing it, but I'm still cautious at the moment. I do kinda like W's suggestion though, of having a Reg. prize for whoever takes their reg farthest. And as Phaed said, a good debate can often trump an uber with a reg. Going in, who would have thought I could have had Nico beat Thunderstrike.... and nearly beat Tri-Sentinel. Heck, I even almost pulled off a Skin vs Vidar match.... and had a good showing for a Mondo Vs Thor. It can be done, it just takes more effort. I think one way to solve that issue is to just make sure everyone is reading and voting honestly instead of just assuming a character would win because of their power.

The rank split doesn't have to be as accurate as it was for the DTL, just enough to lessen the gap in powers. Most fine tuning with that is to equal out the players on each side, so there is an equal number so seasons won't be lopsided.

I know there are anecdotal instances of regulars beating ubers, but a lot of those are due to trump reasons, ie that character having that one thing that can aid him or her in winning. I had that with Psylocke(a regular) beating Xavier(an uber). This still doesn't mean it's not an issue in the larger view of things, and it limits the possibilities of some great characters in the tournament.

As for the mention of how many matches you can have in a week and spreading them out.... I can tell you now that that isn't going to change. That is completely luck of the draw and I don't see a fair way to make it any differant. We draw the matches before we draw characters so that there's no room for anyone to think Phaed, W, or I cheated or played favorates in the placing of our characters. It's absolutely the fairest route. I'm up for other suggestions, but I don't see this changing in the coming future.

There are ways of doing this randomly and with little interference as possible.

 

[primemover]

A lot of these problems can be taken care of by owners spending some time on their draft lists. Designing the list right gets you those ubers, and those one sided regs that have a good shot at taking out ubers.

That will still keep certain characters from ever being a factor in these contests, which bothers me as the lower end characters are much more interesting than the big boys. You take a character like The Black Knight, there are only a few ubers he can legitimately take out and that's due to really special circumstances. Now add to that the randomness of the match ups, and he's up @%^@'s creek. Again, sad to see characters that are cool be limited in their effectiveness, if there is a solution for it.

Not fighting yourself in the first round (which is all that can be guaranteed), isn't too hard. The drafting program can build a schedule like that that is still random (just not quite as random). But there's no way to prevent it from happening in later rounds. The far more difficult thing is evening out the number of matches because it takes away from the randomness of the brackets (as does not fighting yourself). I don't see a fair way of doing it.

There is no way of keeping it happening AT ALL in later rounds, if a person keeps on winning a whole side of the brackets could be one person, but re-rolling the matches after each round, with the idea in mind of keeping self vs. matches from happening