Official Man of Steel Trailer(s) Thread - Part 6

[flickchick85]

I'm not saying that it should be used, but this sort of comment irritates me. Williams theme fit the character perfectly and since its the same character I expect Zimmer's work to be similar in tone.

People are so quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater they forget that donner's universe had plenty of untapped potential, it was the writing and direction that sucked.

Sorry to irritate you, but the music and imagery totally clashed there for me.

And Donner's Superman was ONE version of the character (Silver Age, mostly). There are several other versions, so just because it's the same character doesn't mean the music should have the same tone, imo. Sure, there are basics to the character that remain - being an epic hero and symbol of hope and all that - but there are MANY different types of music that can convey those characteristics, without matching the tone or style of Williams at all.

 

[roach]

[YT]-DUiXZj1c7M[/YT]

me likey

 

[tomoe]

I understand it's your personal preference to rather not have Kal El's existence be a catalyst for the destruction, but it could never technically be his fault, it would 'technically' be Lara and Jor El's fault, if they ignored age old tradition if not law.

Even then, as Kalmart said, it would have still have had to be a build up of MANY incidents, to get to this point.

I don't really want it to be Lara and Jor El's "fault" either. I guess fault is not really a good word for it, because he really can't be blamed for anything but yeah, I don't want him to be a catalyst for any kind of destruction; it just seems less heroic if you're fixing problems that happened partly because of you. Of course the trailer shows that he fixes many problems that he was not the catalyst of, which is good.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I'm a little late, but this was pretty much my reaction to the trailer:

 

[Visceral]

Sorry to irritate you, but the music and imagery totally clashed there for me.

And Donner's Superman was ONE version of the character (Silver Age, mostly). There are several other versions, so just because it's the same character doesn't mean the music should have the same tone, imo. Sure, there are basics to the character that remain - being an epic hero and symbol of hope and all that - but there are MANY different types of music that can convey those characteristics, without matching the tone or style of Williams at all.

Not you, just the comment.

Its commonplace here for people to be so in support of something new that they blindly trash everything old as if it would never work. It seems irrational to me, Superman is Superman.

If Abrams when making Episode VII states the Williams Theme is too old and wouldn't tonally match the new movie, the fans would think he lost it. New Music doesn't automatically equal a good movie. Man of Steel is an update of an old character, and since we know he can be modified for a modern audience by someone creative, its easy to assume that with enough creativity the Williams theme can be updated.

Skyfall?

 

[ThePhantasm]

[YT]-DUiXZj1c7M[/YT]

I like the Williams music at the end. The rest is a poor and mismatched edit unfortunately. I would have used different Krypton cues at the beginning and a different cue for the midsection. William's music could fit this just fine, but the particular tracks used here were misplaced.

 

[KalMart]

If Abrams when making Episode VII states the Williams Theme is too old and wouldn't tonally match the new movie, the fans would think he lost it.

Not if they were rebooting it.

As far as Superman, time to move on from everything in the Donner films, including the Williams music....and this new film is all the better for it.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Wasn't Casino Royale a reboot?

Did they abandon the Bond theme?

Just sayin'.

 

[KalMart]

Wasn't Casino Royale a reboot?

Did they abandon the Bond theme?

Just sayin'.

At the very, very, very end.

Just sayin'.

But Superman is very different than the Bond franchise, which even though rebooting is consciously trying to fit under an entire common umbrella of films as a franchise. Superman is not, it is now trying to make something completely independent of the others....a different franchise despite being based on the same comic character. A better example is Batman with the Dark Knight trilogy, which didn't need even a hint of the Elfman theme.

Some may say that 'oh the Elfman theme doesn't measure up to the iconic such-and-such of the Williams'. That's not the point. Creatively, remaining completely separate is the right thing to do. It's not here to even acknowledge other Superman movies/shows. Se need to let the Williams stuff go for both our own sake and that of the new film. It'll always be great in its original and other uses, this just isn't one of them.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Actually I think the Elfman theme IS just as iconic as the Williams theme. And Zimmer's score to the Dark Knight Trilogy is one of my least favorite aspects of the franchise.

I should say though, I'm not against change. I'm not against a new theme being done. I just want it to say "Superman" to me. The problem with the TDK scores is that you could transplant / mimic them in the Transformers movies or whatever and it still works just fine. It isn't uniquely a "Batman" musical idea. For MOS I don't want a theme that you could slap on The Avengers 2 without having to change a note. I want a clear defined musical identity for Superman. I'm not against abandoning the William's theme, but I hope we are replacing it with something good.

 

[flickchick85]

Not you, just the comment.

Its commonplace here for people to be so in support of something new that they blindly trash everything old as if it would never work. It seems irrational to me, Superman is Superman.

If Abrams when making Episode VII states the Williams Theme is too old and wouldn't tonally match the new movie, the fans would think he lost it. New Music doesn't automatically equal a good movie. Man of Steel is an update of an old character, and since we know he can be modified for a modern audience by someone creative, its easy to assume that with enough creativity the Williams theme can be updated.

Skyfall?

An old character that's had many themes, though. Both before and after Williams, and he can have a new sound again. I personally consider the theme song to the Fleischer cartoons and radio show to be just as definitive a Superman theme as the Williams one. But a new, modern take on Superman needed a new, modern sound, so they thankfully called John Williams, and a new iconic Superman sound was born. Star Wars has had one sound, and one cinematic incarnation (with the scrolling prologues and the theme blasting) from the beginning, and Abrams & Co. aren't starting from scratch with Episode VII. They're continuing the established series, with established actors playing the characters they made famous and following the established continuity. No need for a new sound for that.

Snyder & Co ARE starting from scratch, building a whole new Superman universe, and just as this has happened in the past, it should have its own sound as well, imo.

I'm not trashing Williams' theme. I love it. One of my favorite scores ever. But I am saying it clashes with the modern aesthetics in that video. Just doesn't work for the feel they're going for, imo.

 

[KalMart]

Actually I think the Elfman theme IS just as iconic as the Williams theme. And Zimmer's score to the Dark Knight Trilogy is one of my least favorite aspects of the franchise.

I should say though, I'm not against change. I'm not against a new theme being done. I just want it to say "Superman" to me. The problem with the TDK scores is that you could transplant / mimic them in the Transformers movies or whatever and it still works just fine. It isn't uniquely a "Batman" musical idea. For MOS I don't want a theme that you could slap on The Avengers 2 without having to change a note. I want a clear defined musical identity for Superman. I'm not against abandoning the William's theme, but I hope we are replacing it with something good.

Open yourself up to and leave room for a new and different way of saying 'Superman' musically, and give it a chance instead of requiring it to measure up to the Williams. It's its own thing.

Regarding the DK stuff....it's definitely unique to these Batman movies. It doesn't have the melodic structure that we may associate with other stuff, but its atmosphere and weight speak rather uniquely to its cinematic signature.

And y'know what..you might not get a 'clear, defined' melody or fanfare for this version of Superman. That shouldn't have to be the only, exclusive approach for any Superman story ever. This movie might do better with a different kind of scoring....and that should be judged as to how it worked for THAT film, not a STM and its music.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, the Williams theme had to go. The problem is, at this point when you pair the Williams theme with a newer Superman movie, I'm instantly thinking of Superman Returns. That movie's reliance on the Donner films was symbolized no greater than by the film reprising the old motifs. I think having a new bold direction for the score could help this movie establish its own identity and make it clear that this is a new version.

I think Bond is different, just because it's been an ongoing, loose continuity for decades. Superheroes are different, they're always getting new themes because they're adapted for TV shows, video games, cartoons, movies, etc. The Williams theme will always remain one of the greatest superhero themes of all time, but that doesn't mean that it should be the only Superman movie theme until the end of time. This movie needs to be about more than just nostalgia.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Open yourself up to and leave room for a new and different way of saying 'Superman' musically, and give it a chance instead of requiring it to measure up to the Williams. It's its own thing.

I am. You can say a number of different things with a musical identity. Adam West's Batman had a musical identity that was unique to him, and so did Keaton's (Elfman). Nothing wrong with major differences in the identity. But it shouldn't be a generic superhero theme, or (in the case of TDK trilogy) a generic soundscape. It doesn't have to measure up to Williams, but that doesn't give it an excuse to be unremarkable.

Regarding the DK stuff....it's definitely unique to these Batman movies. It doesn't have the melodic structure that we may associate with other stuff, but its atmosphere and weight speak rather uniquely to its cinematic signature.

The problem is that Zimmer's two-note "motif" (I hesitate to grace it with that word) is used several times in the Transformers films by Jablonsky, and has been riffed on in trailers and whatnot ever since. Its heavy, sure, but not that unique. Instead of a meaningul leitmotif, its a two-note boom that could be transplanted in a variety of films without alteration.

And y'know what..you might not get a 'clear, defined' melody or fanfare for this version of Superman. That shouldn't have to be the only, exclusive approach for any Superman story ever. This movie might do better with a different kind of scoring....and that should be judged as to how it worked for THAT film, not a STM and its music.

I disagree. To me that's a bit like saying "you shouldn't use the bat symbol or the House of El shield in these films. Judge it for what works for THIS film." Those symbols are iconic. The characters are iconic. As such, they can't just be treated like another blockbuster flick. They should be given iconic, recognizable musical identities. Just like you can see a Superman "S" on a wall and immediately think "that's Superman!" so also he should have a musical identity that evokes his character. These are archetypal stories that deserve more than generic soundscape experimentation.

 

[TX85]

The Williams theme is still a masterpiece and all But I'm so over it not being in a new Superman movie,The new one by HZ is perfect for this film IMO!!

The new theme ain't near as great as William's But not bad at all either.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I've got to go to bed. I'm sure this conversation will come up again though. Later guys.

 

[TDK elbowstrike]

The score for TDK is the most memorable Zimmer score for me. Especially the Joker theme. I know some will disagree, but I think it was quite unique. The whole score was epic imho, and I cant imagine any other score in its place. To say you could transplant the theme from Transformers in its place and it would work just as well is laughable to me. TDK score may not be everyones cup of tea, but surely its not THAT unremarkable.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Why didn't Batman '89 use the '66 theme song?

That's the real question.

It was iconic...

--

William's Superman theme also could be played over or mistaken for Star Wars / Star Trek.

Same way that TDK's score could be played over Transformers.

 

[Naite22]

[YT]-DUiXZj1c7M[/YT]

Ok, this needs to stop...
I love the john williams music just as much as the next guy. But this is just pissing all over the monster beautiful trailer we'd just been given yesterday! We are so far in to the new superman process now. I was like swaying my head irritatingly when hearing this john williams inspired trailer. It feels completely wrong!! And people need to understand why. I was sent right back to the Superman Returns days, with a certain Bryan Singer who just wouldn't let go of the old days. It was fine for SR, cause that whole movie was one big homage to the donner films. But this really is new times! The williams music and spirit will forever live beautifully in the 70's-80's, along with Christopher Reeve. That's his legacy - BUT, it really is time to move the ****_ on, and leave the old stuff behind!

I thought the music in the new trailer was very good! And it's only a small outlet of Zimmers music for this film. Everything about this new trailer screams all new superman for all new generations, brought to us by modern filmmakers, to be presented to the modern worldwide audiences, making superman relevant ones again. The look, the feel, the action, the story, and the music all fits beautifully together. Forcing in the Williams theme with this new superman trailer feels completely wrong! And after all the brave efforts and all the hard energy put in to this film to try and give the world something truly new, original and exciting, I find it very offensive to the whole team behind MOS, that people keep on shoving in the old music stuff. Let it go. Really.

I love the Williams theme but its time to move on. The music in this was really great and inspiring

Agreed.

 

[DKDetective]

The score for TDK is the most memorable Zimmer score for me. Especially the Joker theme. I know some will disagree, but I think it was quite unique. The whole score was epic imho, and I cant imagine any other score in its place. To say you could transplant the theme from Transformers in its place and it would work just as well is laughable to me. TDK score may not be everyones cup of tea, but surely its not THAT unremarkable.

I can't really understand how Phantasm can say that either. The bats' wing flapping/cape whooshing motiff is extremely distinctive in my opinion. Sure, it is simple and minimalistic, but it doesn't need to be complex - it says everything that needs to be said. It sounds like Bats! And automatically increase tension as you know that the Dark Knight is stalking his prey. Furthermore, I really don't understand the pedestal that people put the Elfman theme on and the Burton Batfilms were my childhood. Being born in 1988, they are what introduced me to the character! The Elfman theme has too much superfluous fanfare that detracts from its greater, more gothic motiffs. If there is one theme I associate with the character, it is Shirley Walker's from BTAS and Mask of the Phantasm. It is dark, gothic, and tragic, yet wonderfully heroic.

Furthermore, I cannot agree with the Bond reboot comparison. As flickchick and KalMart have both said here, it is a completely unique franchise. It has never had a strict continuity and every time a new Bond actor took the role you could argue that a soft reboot had occurred. The only difference with Casino Royale was that it also set the clock back a few years so that Bond was no longer an experienced 00 agent. Furthermore, within the context of the series' relaxed continuity, the ending of Skyfall can be argued as actually sewing the Craig films onto the front of the series and making the continuity whole again. Man of Steel is a completely different situation.

 

[Bruce Malone]

The score for TDK is the most memorable Zimmer score for me. Especially the Joker theme. I know some will disagree, but I think it was quite unique. The whole score was epic imho, and I cant imagine any other score in its place. To say you could transplant the theme from Transformers in its place and it would work just as well is laughable to me. TDK score may not be everyones cup of tea, but surely its not THAT unremarkable.

I love the zimmer score for TDK trilogy. Honestly though for many people nostalgia is so strong as are emotional attachments that you could have the best new score in the world and to them it would still seem inferior.

Someone mentioned how the Burton batman films didn;t use the batman tv show theme. Well i could imagine someone who grew up on the batman tv series thinking "hey this new theme sucks compared to the original song".

 

[KalMart]

I disagree. To me that's a bit like saying "you shouldn't use the bat symbol or the House of El shield in these films. Judge it for what works for THIS film." Those symbols are iconic. The characters are iconic. As such, they can't just be treated like another blockbuster flick. They should be given iconic, recognizable musical identities. Just like you can see a Superman "S" on a wall and immediately think "that's Superman!" so also he should have a musical identity that evokes his character. These are archetypal stories that deserve more than generic soundscape experimentation.

Admirable sentiments but no.

Emotionally, you might associate the Williams music with Superman as you would his cape, but they are not the same...which isn't a knock on the Williams music at all. It is first and foremost a cinematic contribution starting with the Donner films, regardless of what it's been used for afterwards...a category which is perfectly eligible for changing for a new cinematic vision. You may elevate it personally to something beyond that, but that does not make it something else at its core. Resistance to change is your cross to bear, not the movies'.

There is absolutely nothing that requires any different Superman movie version from Donner's to maintain the music from Donner's movies. Nothing. No more than Nolan's Batman movies need the Burton movies' music. And ultimately, for the sake of establishing it's own movie identity, it's better not to even try. So again, as understandable as your feelings are, in reality the movies need to move on from the williams music. So enough with the Williams yada-yada, it's a non-issuewith these movies from now on. These are new films with new music, and that's how it should be, period.

But thanks for sharing anyway.

 

[matt47]

Well guys dont forget that snyder did say jear the beginning that they were going at this film as if there werent any other movies. So you know...dont act so suprised that theres a new theme song.

 

[KalMart]

It's kind of tough to know exactly what was meant by 'like there never was a Superman movie before'. On one hand, new score, designs, story aspects, all original and not used before. But then...there are lines and elements, especially with Jor-El/Lara..which seem lifted directly from STM.

It's like what if you wanted to set up an operatic saga in space, where these mystical knights fight with swords made of light. Someone may say 'well, that's Star Wars'....aha, but what if there never was a Star Wars...then this would all be brand new concepts.

Yeah...but there WAS a Star Wars, even if you pretend that there wasn't.

 

[Norek]

It's kind of tough to know exactly what was meant by 'like there never was a Superman movie before'. On one hand, new score, designs, story aspects, all original and not used before. But then...there are lines and elements, especially with Jor-El/Lara..which seem lifted directly from STM.

It's like what if you wanted to set up an operatic saga in space, where these mystical knights fight with swords made of light. Someone may say 'well, that's Star Wars'....aha, but what if there never was a Star Wars...then this would all be brand new concepts.

Yeah...but there WAS a Star Wars, even if you pretend that there wasn't.

Well, SW is probably a not very good example to compare the situation with MoS. SW was an original idea, while STM is an adaptation of something that already existed long before it, in many shapes. Of course there will be some similarities with STM since they both borrow from the same comics, but honestly, MoS and STM, so far at least, just look like they can't be any more different.

Just because there was a line or two that are supposedly lifted from STM means nothing in the context of the vast difference between them. It doesn't make what they said any less true. These 'similarities' are something only fans will notice and hold on to, but they don't change the fact that MoS has nothing to do with the previous movies.