Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - - - - Part 13

[ThePowerCosmic]

He really was. Legolas was at asskicking best this time around. I was even into his entrance. Liked him more more in general this time.

Yeah,

Spoiler

how he swung down around on the spider's web. So cool. I liked him more as well. That part where he thought young Gimli was a mutated orc had me laughing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I still think the movies can still improve on some of the novels ideas by having Bilbo be conscious and participating to significant length in the Battle of the Five armies. It would better complement his arc of going from a well off, sedentary and slothful Hobbit to a courageous adventurer.

Agreed. But I wouldn't over do it.

 

[terry78]

That's the only part of the book I don't really care for.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I think this is a universal thing. Horrible place to end it, but they had to kinda of doing it after they decided to spread the films out.

Yeah, I guess I understand why they did it. But damn, that stung in the worst way imaginable.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah,

Spoiler

how he swung down around on the spider's web. So cool. I liked him more as well. That part where he thought young Gimli was a mutated orc had me laughing.

I wrote that was my favorite line. Orlando's delivery is perfect.

Legolas was a fine example of how to integrate "new material" imo. Felt very organic. He didn't overpower the film in anyway and was a treat to watch the entire time. It is only his ties to Tauriel and her not so great story that is a problem.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I liked the scene where Bilbo

Spoiler

stabbed that baby spider to death. He wasn't doing that because he was courageous, he was doing it out of his own greed for that ring.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I justt have to ask: was it as boring, bloated and overblown as PJ's King Kong?

Hard to measure those things because they have different aims. But as far as highs go, nothing in Desolation comes close to the snow sliding scene (Killi and Tauriel, eat your heart out) or the climax. Peter is also able to sustain Kong as a creature of wonder from beginning to end, whereas I thought Smaug lost his luster because he was being punked so much.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I liked the scene where Bilbo

Spoiler

stabbed that baby spider to death. He wasn't doing that because he was courageous, he was doing it out of his own greed for that ring.

I thought they over did that a bit, but I can see where they were going with it.

Also, I don't think that was a [BLACKOUT]baby spider[/BLACKOUT]. I think it was a [BLACKOUT]trapdoor spider[/BLACKOUT].

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Hard to measure those things because they have different aims. But as far as highs go, nothing in Desolation comes close to the snow sliding scene (Killi and Tauriel, eat your heart out) or the climax. Peter is also able to sustain Kong as a creature of wonder from beginning to end, whereas I thought Smaug lost his luster because he was being punked so much.

This is all fair. Who doesn't love Kong on ice. It is so sad because you know what is coming.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I wrote that was my favorite line. Orlando's delivery is perfect.

Legolas was a fine example of how to integrate "new material" imo. Felt very organic. He didn't overpower the film in anyway and was a treat to watch the entire time. It is only his ties to Tauriel and her not so great story that is a problem.

Yeah, I could have done without Tauriel even though I liked her. She just seemed more like a tool to trigger beats in the story more than anything. She had some cool action scenes, though.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

I very seldom leave movies early, but I walked out of this last night about half way through.

I decided to give The Desolation of Smaug a chance, since I loved the Lord of the Rings movies. Although An Unexpected Journey wasn't very good, I figured this would be better with all of the ground work laid out. But it wasn't. It is just so effin boring. Walking, talking, something almost happening but not quite happening, walking, talking, something almost happening but not quite happening, repeat. And the talking just seemed to be repeating the groundwork laid in the first movie!

Its probably my fault a bit. I was very tired last night and it probably wasn't the best time for me to go, but I just couldn't take it anymore, so I left.

I actually dozed off a bit after Smaug's big reveal. I would've dozed off earlier, but the great barrel escape scene woke me right up.

I thought they over did that a bit, but I can see where they were going with it.

Also, I don't think that was a [BLACKOUT]baby spider[/BLACKOUT]. I think it was a [BLACKOUT]trapdoor spider[/BLACKOUT].

Ah, my bad.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, I could have done without Tauriel even though I liked her. She just seemed more like a tool to trigger beats in the story more than anything. She had some cool action scenes, though.

Cut out her relationship with Kili, and I think she would be just fine. I really like her character, which was a very nice surprise to me. But that stuff brought the film to screeching halt more then once.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

Cut out her relationship with Kili, and I think she would be just fine. I really like her character, which was very nice surprise to me. But that stuff brought the film to screeching halt more then once.

Yeah, I think that was one of my biggest problems. Just seemed unnecessary. Really did disrupt the flow.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

This easily tops Thor 2 for me for worst climax/ending. The action is horrible, I was bored instantly and it has way too many cringe worthy moments. That ending, man what the hell was he thinking. It's like he just gave up and said well here ya go.

And what the hell was up with the golden statue part? Jackson was trolling with that s**t.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, I think that was one of my biggest problems. Just seemed unnecessary. Really did disrupt the flow.

When they decided to cut from Smaug to that... no words. It was like Peter wanted to anger us.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Honestly, this is how I would have made the movies:

Spoiler

Film 1: An Unexpected Journey

- Prologue: Gandalf sneaks into Dol Goldur. Orcs are crawling about the fortress. Drums in the deep. Infernal work is being done here. He sneaks into the dungeon and finds Thrain. Tries to help him escape but Thrain is nearly mad from torture. Gives Gandalf the map and key and tells him to give them to his son, Thorin. Just then the orcs discover them - Thrain is killed, and Gandalf fights his way out and barely escapes. All this is narrated by Gandalf, as if talking to Thorin. Then he has a proposition: to find a burglar to help them in their quest to reclaim the mountain...

- Introduce Bilbo. Unexpected Party. It is during this scene that the background about Smaug, along with brief flashbacks, is introduced. Maybe a slightly longer rendition of the "Misty Mountains" song for the EE.

- Journey begins. Bilbo meets the dwarves at the Green Dragon, as in the book. They leave, have a journey montage, discussion about pocket handkerchiefs, whatnot. No warg scouts from Azog, no talk about throat-slitters.

- Troll scene. I would have Bilbo delay the trolls a bit longer to show his ingenuity.

- They go to Rivendell, willingly. The dwarves are prejudiced against elves but not stupid - willing to put up with elves for the sake of the quest, as any rational being would be. Here we have a brief White Council scene, same players + Radagast, with discussion of Mirkwood and Dol Goldur. Saruman is not a *****ebag in this scene. They all think the Necromancer is one of the Nine, per the books. Necromancer may ally with Smaug (I believe Tolkien himself suggested this in one of his letters, if I recall), so the Council wants to prevent that.

- Misty Mountains + Stone Giants scene. Refuge in cave. Thorin / Bilbo tension about his place on this quest.

- Goblin town. I'd keep much of this the same except for the cartoonish bits, i.e. falling from ridiculous heights without being hurt. Great Goblin does send word to Bolg. It is here we learn in BRIEF flashbacks of Azog's death at Moria and Bolg's thirst for revenge.

- Riddles in the Dark. Keep pretty much the same.

- Escape. Daylight. Goblins don't follow in daylight, but when night hits they pursue on wargs. Battle with the goblins + wargs, Goblins sing the song about burning the dwarves. Gandalf sees the Eagles afar off and signals. They carry them away from the goblins. We cannot understand the Eagles but Gandalf can communicate with them - they tell him they do not go near Dale for fear of being shot down, and have no desire to carry them many leagues. Set them down near Beorn's house.

- Introduce themselves to Beorn while he is a man. The goblins are still in pursuit. That night Beorn goes off, kills many of the pursuing goblins. Puts their heads on pikes outside the next day.

- Mirkwood. Spiders. This bit is okay, just cut out Bilbo's obsession with the ring. THIS, and not the warg-scene, is where Bilbo proves his mettle to Thorin.

- Gandalf goes to meet the White Council which is gathering forces against Dol Goldur.

- Captured by the wood-elves. Adding Tauriel as a guard is okay but no romantic subplots, just have her be a heroic elf. Legolas appearance. Dwarves escape. No weird fight at that dam/gate thing.

- Down the river they go, they see the mountain in the distance. END.

Spoiler

Film 2: There and Back Again

Prologue: Flashback showing dragon attack in greater detail (we only got snippets in previous movie). Thorin's perspective.

- Enter laketown. No sneaking around crap. Thorin announces who he is. They go up to the mountain. Put key in keyhole. Door opens.

- During this time we see the Battle of Dol Goldur. Large battle. White Council drives out evil, Necromancer not strong enough to fight AT ALL so flees, revealed to be Sauron. Saruman finds a palantir foreshadowing his temptation and fall. Gandalf sets out to return to the dwarves.

- Bilbo and Smaug, uninterrupted scene. Smaug, enraged, thinks he kills Bilbo and the dwarves (there could be a small chase, but nothing too long that makes Smaug looks stupid - he collapses tunnels, thinks they are dead).

- Smaug attacks Laketown, killed by Bard.

- On the way to Erebor, Gandalf encounters Bolg and his forces going in that direction. Is pursued but outruns them.

- Thorin bewitched by treasure, does not care about Laketown. Finally convinced to leave mountain. Bard approaches. Armies arrive and encamp. Thorin refuses to share gold.

- Bilbo sneaks into Bard's camp and gives the Arkenstone to Bard. This causes a rift between Thorin and Bilbo. Thorin is about to kill Bilbo when Gandalf arrives and stays his hand. Gandalf tells them that Bolg and his army is on the way.

- Battle of five armies. Thorin, Fili, and Kili killed. Beorn arrives (summoned by Gandalf) and kills Bolg in the battle.

- Bilbo / Thorin last moments. Bilbo returns home with Gandalf. Thinks about writing his adventure down in a book. END.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

How would you rank all of Jackson's CGI creatures?

For me:

1. King Kong

2. Gollum (2012) - I thought the marriage of the emotional range the Riddles in the Dark scene afforded Jackson and Andy as well as advancing tech made him a reference grade talking humanoid on film, behind perhaps only Neytiri.

3. Gollum (OT)

4. Balrog

5. Smaug - Pixel for Pixel he is a more impressive creation than Balrog, but in consideration to the time Balrog was made I reckon him to be more incredible.

6. The Goblin King

7. Ringraith's Dragon - It still looks impressively formidable to this day.

8. The Trio of Trolls - those dimwitted cross eyes are great.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Honestly, this is how I would have made the movies:

Spoiler

Film 1: An Unexpected Journey

- Prologue: Gandalf sneaks into Dol Goldur. Orcs are crawling about the fortress. Drums in the deep. Infernal work is being done here. He sneaks into the dungeon and finds Thrain. Tries to help him escape but Thrain is nearly mad from torture. Gives Gandalf the map and key and tells him to give them to his son, Thorin. Just then the orcs discover them - Thrain is killed, and Gandalf fights his way out and barely escapes. All this is narrated by Gandalf, as if talking to Thorin. Then he has a proposition: to find a burglar to help them in their quest to reclaim the mountain...

- Introduce Bilbo. Unexpected Party. It is during this scene that the background about Smaug, along with brief flashbacks, is introduced. Maybe a slightly longer rendition of the "Misty Mountains" song for the EE.

- Journey begins. Bilbo meets the dwarves at the Green Dragon, as in the book. They leave, have a journey montage, discussion about pocket handkerchiefs, whatnot. No warg scouts from Azog, no talk about throat-slitters.

- Troll scene. I would have Bilbo delay the trolls a bit longer to show his ingenuity.

- They go to Rivendell, willingly. The dwarves are prejudiced against elves but not stupid - willing to put up with elves for the sake of the quest, as any rational being would be. Here we have a brief White Council scene, same players + Radagast, with discussion of Mirkwood and Dol Goldur. Saruman is not a *****ebag in this scene. They all think the Necromancer is one of the Nine, per the books. Necromancer may ally with Smaug (I believe Tolkien himself suggested this in one of his letters, if I recall), so the Council wants to prevent that.

- Misty Mountains + Stone Giants scene. Refuge in cave. Thorin / Bilbo tension about his place on this quest.

- Goblin town. I'd keep much of this the same except for the cartoonish bits, i.e. falling from ridiculous heights without being hurt. Great Goblin does send word to Bolg. It is here we learn in BRIEF flashbacks of Azog's death at Moria and Bolg's thirst for revenge.

- Riddles in the Dark. Keep pretty much the same.

- Escape. Daylight. Goblins don't follow in daylight, but when night hits they pursue on wargs. Battle with the goblins + wargs, Goblins sing the song about burning the dwarves. Gandalf sees the Eagles afar off and signals. They carry them away from the goblins. We cannot understand the Eagles but Gandalf can communicate with them - they tell him they do not go near Dale for fear of being shot down, and have no desire to carry them many leagues. Set them down near Beorn's house.

- Introduce themselves to Beorn while he is a man. The goblins are still in pursuit. That night Beorn goes off, kills many of the pursuing goblins. Puts their heads on pikes outside the next day.

- Mirkwood. Spiders. This bit is okay, just cut out Bilbo's obsession with the ring. THIS, and not the warg-scene, is where Bilbo proves his mettle to Thorin.

- Gandalf goes to meet the White Council which is gathering forces against Dol Goldur.

- Captured by the wood-elves. Adding Tauriel as a guard is okay but no romantic subplots, just have her be a heroic elf. Legolas appearance. Dwarves escape. No weird fight at that dam/gate thing.

- Down the river they go, they see the mountain in the distance. END.

Spoiler

Film 2: There and Back Again

Prologue: Flashback showing dragon attack in greater detail (we only got snippets in previous movie). Thorin's perspective.

- Enter laketown. No sneaking around crap. Thorin announces who he is. They go up to the mountain. Put key in keyhole. Door opens.

- During this time we see the Battle of Dol Goldur. Large battle. White Council drives out evil, Necromancer not strong enough to fight AT ALL so flees, revealed to be Sauron. Saruman finds a palantir foreshadowing his temptation and fall. Gandalf sets out to return to the dwarves.

- Bilbo and Smaug, uninterrupted scene. Smaug, enraged, thinks he kills Bilbo and the dwarves (there could be a small chase, but nothing too long that makes Smaug looks stupid - he collapses tunnels, thinks they are dead).

- Smaug attacks Laketown, killed by Bard.

- On the way to Erebor, Gandalf encounters Bolg and his forces going in that direction. Is pursued but outruns them.

- Thorin bewitched by treasure, does not care about Laketown. Finally convinced to leave mountain. Bard approaches. Armies arrive and encamp. Thorin refuses to share gold.

- Bilbo sneaks into Bard's camp and gives the Arkenstone to Bard. This causes a rift between Thorin and Bilbo. Thorin is about to kill Bilbo when Gandalf arrives and stays his hand. Gandalf tells them that Bolg and his army is on the way.

- Battle of five armies. Thorin, Fili, and Kili killed. Beorn arrives (summoned by Gandalf) and kills Bolg in the battle.

- Bilbo / Thorin last moments. Bilbo returns home with Gandalf. Thinks about writing his adventure down in a book. END.

I love it for basic outline. Makes you wonder...

Also yeah, the spider scene. Bilbo's "moment". Completely lessened by the end of the first film, and well the Dwarves don't even seem to notice.

 

[ThePowerCosmic]

When they decided to cut from Smaug to that... no words. It was like Peter wanted to anger us.

Yep! He was on his trolling game for this movie.

Spoiler

"Isn't this scene with Smaug intense? Welp, let's forget about that for a sec and cut back to Lake-town! I'm going to shove this romance down your throats whether you like it or not!"

 

[ThePhantasm]

WTF was up with that cliffhanger? Everyone in the theater groaned, and not in a, "Aww, I wanted to see what happens next! I can't wait until the next movie!" way, but in a "Why the hell would they end it there? It was just getting good!" way. People(including me) were even sitting in their seats during that abrupt black screen before the credits, thinking that maybe the movie wasn't over after all. Nope, once the credits came, the groans came.

Somebody in my theatre (no, it wasn't me) yelled "you've GOT to be kidding me" and everyone laughed.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

How would you rank all of Jackson's CGI creatures?

For me:

1. King Kong

2. Gollum (2012) - I thought the marriage of the emotional range the Riddles in the Dark scene afforded Jackson and Andy as well as advancing tech made him a reference grade talking humanoid on film, behind perhaps only Neytiri.

3. Gollum (OT)

4. Balrog

5. Smaug - Pixel for Pixel he is a more impressive creation than Balrog, but in consideration to the time Balrog was made I reckon him to be more incredible.

6. The Goblin King

7. Ringraith's Dragon - It still looks impressively formidable to this day.

8. The Trio of Trolls - those dimwitted cross eyes are great.

Smaug, Balrog and Kong in that order for me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yep! He was on his trolling game for this movie.

Spoiler

"Isn't this scene with Smaug intense? Welp, let's forget about that for a sec and cut back to Lake-town! I'm going to shove this romance down your throats whether you like it or not!"

It took Bilbo like 20mins to get into the mountain because of all the cuts Jackson made to crap I really don't care about. He literally walked in, cut away, walk a little more, cut away, finally inside.

 

[ares834]

I didn't mind the ending, but splitting the movie in two and ending it at Bard's entrance would have worked far better.

I just have to ask: was it as boring, bloated and overblown as PJ's King Kong?

Not even close IMO. I found King Kong to be almost unwatchable upon repeat viewings.

 

[ThePhantasm]

It took Bilbo like 20mins to get into the mountain because of all the cuts Jackson made to crap I really don't care about. He literally walked in, cut away, walk a little more, cut away, finally inside.

I know. "This Smaug stuff is too exciting. What else to people like... hospital TV shows with love triangles! Let's have Kili be injured and Tauriel plays doctor and then orcs attack! Why didn't Tolkien think of that? Brilliant!"

 

[regwec]

Once again, I find myself wishing for a "Special Truncated Edition" DVD, with all the crap taken out.