Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - - - - - Part 14

[insideguy]

Hey dumb question for Hobbit and LOTR fans. In the books or in the movie is there a difference between Goblins and Orcs? Are they different races like in D&D?

 

[AnneFan]

Still haven't seen this. I'll hopefully see it mid January. I'm on holidays.

 

[Drizzle]

Hey dumb question for Hobbit and LOTR fans. In the books or in the movie is there a difference between Goblins and Orcs? Are they different races like in D&D?

Goblins seem to be more primitive than Orcs in the LOTR and Hobbit movies. Orcs are more human-like in their behavior. Orcs also don't seem to be bothered by daylight, unlike Goblins.

 

[Silvermoon]

Hey dumb question for Hobbit and LOTR fans. In the books or in the movie is there a difference between Goblins and Orcs? Are they different races like in D&D?

In the books I don't think there's much of a difference (it's mainly that Tolkien used one term in Hobbit and another one in LOTR, but really the names were synonymous/interchangable).

In the films, PJ decided to differentiate them a bit, but I *think* he means them to still be related. So, for example, if Orcs are considered as the main/umbrella race - and Goblins a subset of that, then all Goblins are a type of Orc, but that doesn't mean all Orcs are Goblins (and again, that's in the films)





and I have no idea if that made sense, my apologies if it didn't.

 

[regwec]

Hey dumb question for Hobbit and LOTR fans. In the books or in the movie is there a difference between Goblins and Orcs? Are they different races like in D&D?

Here are my thoughts from a while ago. I think they are accurate.

In the books they're the same thing. The more fairy tale "goblin" was used in The Hobbit as JRR probably wasn't too confident about the use invented words and speech at that point.

It's right to say that there are different breeds of Orc, though: this is evidenced by the conflict between the small archer Orc and the big Orc with the spear in Mordor (ROTK).

The Uruks being Saruman's invention is just PJ's idea: Gandalf refers with surprise to "black Uruks of Mordor" being present in Moria. JRR did, however, have Saruman come up with the idea of cross-breeding Orcs and humans.

That would have made for an unsettling scene, no?

 

[Drizzle]

Edit

 

[regwec]

...twice?

 

[Drizzle]

Computer issues.

 

[Pink Ranger]

...twice?

Computer issues.

Special extended edition.

 

[insideguy]

In the books I don't think there's much of a difference (it's mainly that Tolkien used one term in Hobbit and another one in LOTR, but really the names were synonymous/interchangable).

In the films, PJ decided to differentiate them a bit, but I *think* he means them to still be related. So, for example, if Orcs are considered as the main/umbrella race - and Goblins a subset of that, then all Goblins are a type of Orc, but that doesn't mean all Orcs are Goblins (and again, that's in the films)





and I have no idea if that made sense, my apologies if it didn't.

LOL thanks(i think)

 

[insideguy]

Goblins seem to be more primitive than Orcs in the LOTR and Hobbit movies. Orcs are more human-like in their behavior. Orcs also don't seem to be bothered by daylight, unlike Goblins.

Hmm interesting.

 

[matrix_ghost]

Saw the movie couple of days ago. Loved it alot. Also i watchrd this in imax 3d HFR as with the first movie. The HFR was amajor improvement this time around and as with the first movie really helps the CGI look more realistic. Also its been years since i read hobbit but i am sure some lf themmore knowledgable posters can explain this to me . Why does thranduil flat out refuse to help the dwarfs. I can understand his reluctance to fight smaug. His scene with thorin where he removes his magic to reveal the scars on his face hint that he knows what dangers lie battling dragons. However to flat out refuse to give the dwarves even fold and shelter does come off as a major *****ebag move .

I'll repeat my post here. I would really appreciate an answer from the mire knowledgable tolkien fans here . Thanks in advance

 

[Rincewind]

I'll repeat my post here. I would really appreciate an answer from the mire knowledgable tolkien fans here . Thanks in advance

In the movie, Thranduil is a *****ebag, first and foremost. But I think that you can probably assume that since he's fought dragons in the (very distant) past, he - just like Bard - is worried what would happen if the dwarves awaken Smaug. After all, Mirkwood is close enough to the Lonely Mountain to make the possibility unpleasant. So in the long run it's better for Thranduil to make sure that Thorin and his kin don't even reach Erebor.

In the book, as far as I can remember, there is more emphasis on the idea that the Mirkwood elves view the dwarven company as intruders. When they are taken before Thranduil (Thorin first, because he's captured earlier than the rest of the dwarves) they refuse to tell him their true purpose. So he throws them in the dungeons until they change their mind.

ETA:

Or, I'm not sure if you mean why didn't he help the dwarves when Smaug first attacked. That's an invention of Jackson and co. Thranduil didn't help because he's a dick.

 

[Herolee10]

Quick question, did Tolkein ever give a reason as to why legolas's father (and the mirkwood elves) along with the Kingdom of Dale never took a active role in the War of the Ring during the events of LOTR? I mean, most of my knowledge comes from the films since that is how I got exposed to the genre, so I was just wondering as to why these prominent figures never got involved in such a high scale war.


Also, if I may ask....I remember reading on how some critics viewed "Sam" as the real underdog hero of the LOTR story/films, more so than Frodo even. Do other people agree with that belief as well?

 

[regwec]

Also, if I may ask....I remember reading on how some critics viewed "Sam" as the real underdog hero of the LOTR story/films, more so than Frodo even. Do other people agree with that belief as well?

Yes. Sam is one of the most saintly characters in fiction.

 

[Ipodman]

Aragon has always been the "hero" of LOTR to me... I guess everyone has their own hero of the story. Some like Aragon, some like Legolas etc etc

 

[regwec]

Aragorn is obviously the character that fits the mold of the epic hero (though not in the movies, where he was depicted as a navel gazing introvert), and his place in the story is to throw into relief the alternative heroism of the Hobbits, which is drawn from a kindness of nature and an indomitable sense of duty.

Sam, in the books, is the most consistently humble, dutiful, selfless and brave. And he never once considers giving up. Even as the world burns around him and Frodo at the end, Sam gets them off the ground and persuades Frodo to walk a few more steps, ultimately saving their lives. He is among the most quietly heroic characters in fiction, which is why PJ's decision to have him allow Frodo to send him home was so offensive.

Who on Earth thinks Legolas is the hero of the story?

 

[Ipodman]

My friend in school, who freaks out whenever Legolas comes on screen. He can talk about the shot where Legolas kills an elephant for hours

 

[Rincewind]

Quick question, did Tolkein ever give a reason as to why legolas's father (and the mirkwood elves) along with the Kingdom of Dale never took a active role in the War of the Ring during the events of LOTR? I mean, most of my knowledge comes from the films since that is how I got exposed to the genre, so I was just wondering as to why these prominent figures never got involved in such a high scale war.

During the War of the Ring there was a lot of fighting all over the North. Sauron attacked on many fronts, it's just that the biggest blow was against Minas Tirith, because his most dangerous enemies were gathered there. In the movie he attacks only Gondor (and Rohan through Saruman).

In fact, Erebor and Dale were besieged by a huge army of orcs and evil men from the East at about the same time as the Battle of Minas Tirith. The dwarves and the men of Dale managed to fight back Sauron's forces and thus probably saved the North. But the news of the battles didin't reach the main characters until after the Ring was destroyed.
As to the elves, they were busy defending themselves from attacks from Dol Guldur.

 

[Silvermoon]

During the War of the Ring there was a lot of fighting all over the North. Sauron attacked on many fronts, it's just that the biggest blow was against Minas Tirith, because his most dangerous enemies were gathered there. In the movie he attacks only Gondor (and Rohan through Saruman).

In fact, Erebor and Dale were besieged by a huge army of orcs and evil men from the East at about the same time as the Battle of Minas Tirith. The dwarves and the men of Dale managed to fight back Sauron's forces and thus probably saved the North. But the news of the battles didin't reach the main characters until after the Ring was destroyed.
As to the elves, they were busy defending themselves from attacks from Dol Guldur.

The movies, or at least - the extended editions - do at least hint this is occurring. I can't remember if it's in Two Towers or Return of the King (I think it's the ROTK - EE) when Legolas and Gimli are setting out with everyone else Gimli makes a comment that they should get an army of dwarves and Legolas responds that he believes the dwarves already have fighting of their own to do in their own homelands.

 

[Rincewind]

The movies, or at least - the extended editions - do at least hint this is occurring. I can't remember if it's in Two Towers or Return of the King (I think it's the ROTK - EE) when Legolas and Gimli are setting out with everyone else Gimli makes a comment that they should get an army of dwarves and Legolas responds that he believes the dwarves already have fighting of their own to do in their own homelands.

Really? Then it's a clear hint of those events. But it's understandable why they weren't included, they weren't even a part of the book's narrative.

 

[Quasimod0]

I smell a new trilogy.

 

[regwec]

It would probably be better if PJ "adapted" something that was scarcely written anyway.

 

[Quasimod0]

I'd pay to see it to be honest.

 

[Victarion]

He could adapt the War in the North videogame...