Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - - Part 16

[ThePhantasm]

A false equivalency if ever there was one. Sure, it's something you just have to roll with it, but that doesn't change the fact that it reeks of idiocy. Now if Gandalf was just a wizard I could see him overlooking Bilbo's ring, but when this is pretty much his entire purpose for being in ME, one would expect Gandalf to express more curiosity in the ring even though ring-lore is not his speciality.

There are many, many magic rings in Middle-Earth. The likelihood that this is the One Ring is small, and at any rate Gandalf doesn't even know that Sauron is back at that point in the narrative. Only after observing Bilbo's symptoms over a long period of time does Gandalf start to worry and dig deeper. He doesn't overlook anything, he just doesn't resort to the sort of easy answers that you might want. He doesn't grab the ring from Bilbo and run off to some tower to look into it. He takes his time, he trusts in the sturdiness of hobbits, and he covers all his bases before finally making his decision.

 

[regwec]

he trusts in the sturdiness of hobbits, and he covers all his bases before finally making his decision.

Another good point: the Ring was in the safest and remotest part of Middle Earth vis-a-vis Sauron. Had Gandalf jumped to conclusions and ushered Bilbo (or Frodo) straight towards some kind of sitting of the White Council, the Ring would very likely have fallen into the hands of Saruman, who was the authority on the subject and implicitly Gandalf's boss.

 

[ares834]

Gandalf only began to grow concerned when he noticed a change come over Bilbo. Otherwise, it was simply a magic ring that turned the user invisible. There is a precedent for such devices in the Middle-earth canon.

Sure, i know the reasons. Plus Saruman claimed the Ring was lost in the oceans but that still doesn't excuse his failure to realize it was the One Ring earlier.

Was Gandalf's "purpose" to find the One Ring, then?

We both know the answer to this.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm rewatching An Unexpected Journey right now, and if you can set aside the need to compare and contrast it with regards to how accurate or inaccurate it is in relation to the source material upon which it is based, it's actually quite a good movie. It might fall short in places when it comes to being strictly faithful to its source, but it tells a very well-structured tale that handles its large ensemble cast very well and has the perfect balance of action, humor, exposition, and mystery.

It also sets up the wider arcs of all of its sequels' stories very well, which is all you can ask for from the opening chapter of a trilogy or Saga.

 

[ares834]

There are many, many magic rings in Middle-Earth.

Aside from the Rings of Power, what? There may very well be other magic rings (in the films Gandalf claims there are many), but, to my knowledge, we never see nor hear about them in the books.

The likelihood that this is the One Ring is small, and at any rate Gandalf doesn't even know that Sauron is back at that point in the narrative.

No. He most certainly does know Sauron is back. That was the entire reason that the White Council attacked Dol Guldur. Gandalf went there and realized that the Necromancer was indeed Sauron, which then caused them to assault it.

Only after observing Bilbo's symptoms over a long period of time does Gandalf start to worry and dig deeper. He doesn't overlook anything, he just doesn't resort to the sort of easy answers that you might want.

That I might want? Love how you try to spin this on me. What I’m saying is simple, when Bilbo discovers a magic ring the guy whose purpose is to help defeat the Lord of the Rings should look into it immediately and not wait around 60 years before doing so.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Aside from the Rings of Power, what? There may very well be other magic rings (in the films Gandalf claims there are many), but, to my knowledge, we never see nor hear about them in the books.

So just because they don't appear in the narrative, they somehow don't exist in that universe? Its an established part of the lore that there are other magic rings.

No. He most certainly does know Sauron is back. That was the entire reason that the White Council attacked Dol Guldur. Gandalf went there and realized that the Necromancer was indeed Sauron, which then caused them to assault it.

Its not so straightforward as that. The Dol Goldur bit doesn't all happen in one go like in the movies. At first the Wise suspect it is the Nazgul, Gandalf then discovers it is Sauron, Sauron then disappears for 400 years, Sauron comes back, the Wise defeat him, Sauron retreats into Mordor (they still think he's defeated at this point) until he finally reveals himself in full after the events of the Hobbit.

There's a lot of secrecy and misdirection involved in these confrontations. Its not like in the film where Gandalf just struts into Dol Goldur and OMERGERD THERES TEH EYE OF SAURONS!!!!1!!! SAURON BACK!!

That I might want? Love how you try to spin this on me. What I’m saying is simple, when Bilbo discovers a magic ring the guy whose purpose is to help defeat the Lord of the Rings should look into it immediately and not wait around 60 years before doing so.

Gandalf spends that 60 years looking into it. The films may give you the impression that Gandalf can fast travel to all corners of Middle Earth but the truth is that these things take time. Gandalf also had other things to tend to, as he indicates in the books. He's just one wizard, he has to help in many crises. Looking into a ring that may-or-may-not be the One Ring is just one of his many tasks.

 

[DigificWriter]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, so what I'm about to say must make me a fool.

The rather leisurely pace at which many of the significant imperiling events in Tolkien's Middle-earth mythology occur really was not the best decision speaking strictly from a storytelling perspective. It's a flaw that I think people have overlooked because of the richness of Tolkien's world, but is a flaw nonetheless.

 

[ThePhantasm]

That "leisurely pace" is what makes the world seem so realistic. The real world isn't an action movie. Things like World War II don't just pop up out of nowhere, they take decades and decades to develop. Tolkien isn't interesting in rushing the story along for an instant-gratification "we just want to see Legolas fight some orcs" generation. He writes the narrative so there is a lot of cunning, secrecy, plotting, and so forth going on. The shadow builds gradually, as does the dread - we hear of a possible ring wraith visiting Dain at Erebor, Gollum leaves his hiding place, rumors emerge from the East...

Jackson's absurd and sometimes continuity-breaking pacing makes Middle-Earth seem like a very small place.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Apparently in this movie one of the characters mentions [BLACKOUT]Strider[/BLACKOUT]. I have to simply shake my head at that if it is true. [BLACKOUT]Aragorn[/BLACKOUT] was ten years old at the time of the Hobbit.

 

[regwec]

Back when his nickname was "Skipper".

 

[Greens]

Apparently in this movie one of the characters mentions [BLACKOUT]Strider[/BLACKOUT]. I have to simply shake my head at that if it is true. [BLACKOUT]Aragorn[/BLACKOUT] was ten years old at the time of the Hobbit.

[BLACKOUT]Thranduil tells Legolas to join the Dunedain at the end of the movie because Strider is bound to become a great man[/BLACKOUT]

Jackson had to add another forced "connection" between the two trilogies...

 

[ThePhantasm]

wow

 

[ares834]

So just because they don't appear in the narrative, they somehow don't exist in that universe? Its an established part of the lore that there are other magic rings.

Except it’s not. The only magic rings that I know of that are even mentioned in the books are the Rings of Power. If you know of others, please present them. I’d certainly expect that there are, of course, but they aren’t “an established part of the lore.” Other rings of importance, sure; but not magic rings.

Its not so straightforward as that. The Dol Goldur bit doesn't all happen in one go like in the movies. At first the Wise suspect it is the Nazgul, Gandalf then discovers it is Sauron, Sauron then disappears for 400 years, Sauron comes back, the Wise defeat him, Sauron retreats into Mordor (they still think he's defeated at this point) until he finally reveals himself in full after the events of the Hobbit.

There's a lot of secrecy and misdirection involved in these confrontations. Its not like in the film where Gandalf just struts into Dol Goldur and OMERGERD THERES TEH EYE OF SAURONS!!!!1!!! SAURON BACK!!

I never once mentioned the events playing out like in the films. I merely corrected your mistake point that Gandalf did know Sauron was back. Also Gandalf does not learn that the Necromancer is Sauron hundreds of years before they drove him out the first time. At that point they merely suspect it, it’s only when Gandalf returns their shortly before the Hobbit (when he gets the key and map from Thrain) that he learns the truth.

Gandalf spends that 60 years looking into it. The films may give you the impression that Gandalf can fast travel to all corners of Middle Earth but the truth is that these things take time. Gandalf also had other things to tend to, as he indicates in the books. He's just one wizard, he has to help in many crises. Looking into a ring that may-or-may-not be the One Ring is just one of his many tasks.

I’m quite certain he does not begin looking into it until after Bilbo has left the Shire for Rivendell. It still takes him quite a bit of time of course, over a dozen years IIRC, but I can certainly understand why it would take him long to search for this information as he tracks down Gollum, looks for obscure pieces of lore, etc…

 

[Silvermoon]

Apparently in this movie one of the characters mentions [BLACKOUT]Strider[/BLACKOUT]. I have to simply shake my head at that if it is true. [BLACKOUT]Aragorn[/BLACKOUT] was ten years old at the time of the Hobbit.

In the books yes, not necessarily in the movies

Spoiler

It's not completely clear if Peter intended there to be the 17 year gap between Bilbo leaving the Shire in Fellowship and Frodo finally setting out on his quest as there was in the book (if he did intend that much time to have passed, he did a poor job of making that clear/there should've been some dialogue or subtitle on screen indicating almost 2 decades had passed for those not familiar with the book(s)). However, if PJ went ahead and nixed those 17 years (which is my personal belief) - then with Aragorn still stating he's in his late 80's in Two Towers Extended, then in the film version of Hobbit (being 60 years prior to FOTR) he'd be in his mid 20's or so

Just sayin'

 

[Greens]

Desolation of Smaug honest trailer

[YT]XFAGVVt0HvA[/YT]

"Return to New Zealand's most breathtaking green screen studios.. again. Where tiny sections of the book will be stretched into hours of overly CG'd filler.

 

[DigificWriter]

It might not have been made clear in dialogue, but the way in which Frodo and Sam start off on their journey does indicate that there's definitely not 17 years between when Bilbo leaves and when Frodo does. I would say, at most, that there's a year between Bilbo's party and Gandalf's return to Bag-End, and a few days at most between his return and Frodo's departure from the Shire with Sam.

 

[regwec]

I think that's evidenced by the absence of any change in Frodo during the interim.

The filmic Middle Earth is inevitably a smaller and briefer imagined world than the original. That compromise would be easier to accept were it not that it also seems to be progressively diminished; geographically, aesthetically and spiritually.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ How does the condensing of time make the filmic Middle-earth less splendid than as Tolkien imagined it?

I doubt it would be impossible for Gandalf to have traveled to Minas Tirith and back in a year, especially if his journey weren't derailed.

He'd clearly already begun to suspect that Bilbo's magic ring was the One Ring by the time he turned up for Bilbo's party, but didn't quite have all the info he needed. Seeing Bilbo's behavior was, I believe, the last 'piece of the puzzle'.

 

[Mr.M]

Thinking about seeing this tonight. Never read the book. Liked AUJ, hated DoS. Should I give this a shot and go 2/3 in this trilogy?

 

[regwec]

^ How does the condensing of time make the filmic Middle-earth less splendid than as Tolkien imagined it?

Not what I wrote.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ You said you thought that the filmic Middle-earth was progressively diminished geographically, aesthetically, and spiritually because it's inevitably a smaller and briefer imagined world. How do you think that statement differs from what I inferred from it?

 

[Greens]

Thinking about seeing this tonight. Never read the book. Liked AUJ, hated DoS. Should I give this a shot and go 2/3 in this trilogy?

You might as well watch it and finish the trilogy. Same reason I did.

 

[regwec]

^ You said you thought that the filmic Middle-earth was progressively diminished geographically, aesthetically, and spiritually because it's inevitably a smaller and briefer imagined world. How do you think that statement differs from what I inferred from it?

You imputed rather than inferred causation.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Ok. Sorry for any offense I caused.

 

[regwec]

Absolutely none, it was just a misunderstanding!

What a polite young man.