Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 17

[regwec]

By Directive 2011/77/EU, it is 70 years from the author's death. I cannot see why implied repeal does not apply to any earlier arrangement.

Edit: Sorry, that should be the Copyrights, Designs and Patents Acts 1988 s.12.

 

[redhawk23]

Something I had never heard of before: In the United States, the Lord of the Rings books were public domain for several years due to a slip up made by the U.S. publisher.

http://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2011/10/05/one-public-domain-to-rule-them-all/

Their Copyrighted status was restored in the mid 1990s.

 

[Lord]

Well if the author was ok with his work being filmed then who is the son to overrule that? He disinherited someone over something his father agreed to? If anyone's wishes should matter after death it should be the author. The son sounds more like an uber prick all the time.

The thing is, the author regretted that decision later on, his son is following his father's wishes, and if anything, he's the one who would know him better.

 

[jmc]

Didn't Tolkien give away the rights for virtually nothing because he knew (at the time) a film was impossible?

 

[regwec]

From what I remember of his letters, he sold some film rights because he needed the money to buy a house. He was later horrified by some of the scripts he saw, though he was at least at one stage impressed by some designs he was shown for an animation.

I don't think JRR was anything other than a reasonable guy, but it is clear on balance that he felt a revulsion at seeing his work reimagined by others. In interviews, remember, JRR consistently said that, in undertaking LOTR, he was just trying to write the kind of story he would enjoy, without reference to anyone else's tastes. That is partly why, excepting its imitators, it is so unique. I suspect Christopher feels he is trying to abide by JRR's feelings as much as his own.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Wasn't his daughter a consultant on the 78 animated film?

 

[regwec]

Priscilla? I can't find anything to suggest that she was.

Looking led me to this article, however, which made me chuckle.

 

[Lord]

Didn't Tolkien give away the rights for virtually nothing because he knew (at the time) a film was impossible?

He should probably have known better, at the time they didn't have as many effects, but i wouldn't have considered the task impossible, epics had been done by that time various times, and films such as The Wizard of Oz had handled fantasy elements quite well.

 

[InCali]

This has (understandably) turned into something of a Silmarillion thread (said the guilty) as it's the more interesting subject. I don't know anything about trusts, wills, copyrights, etc. as engineers are (generally) blissfully ignorant of such documents and laws.

I do like answering some of the questions people have about the Tolkien universe (though my words are not definitive) as it makes me think about how his world fit together (and it fits together extraordinarily well). My favorite questions are probably questions about the movie version of The Hobbit that don't make sense to people. That's because they generally don't make sense to me either, but it gives me a chance to ask myself "What was Peter Jackson thinking anyway?"......the assumption being that he was trying to put together something cohesive (which I believe to be debatable).

The recent question about Erebor and Angmar is a great example. Angmar was "probably" basically uninhabited during the years leading up to 2941 of the 3rd Age (The basic time in which The Hobbit takes place). The Lord of the Nazgûl (The Witch King of Angmar) most likely spent his time in Dol Guldur, Mordor, or Minas Ithil (Morgul), but I don't think it's definitive that Angmar was "completely" abandoned by Sauron. During the time of Bilbo's journey, Sauron had certainly gathered the 9 (Nazgûl), but what about prior to this time??? I "think" Tolkien is silent on this point.

Here's a little bit of a rub that really doesn't come out in the movie (or should I say is "misrepresented" in the movie). Gandalf had long suspected that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur was, in fact, Sauron and had long urged an attack while the enemy had yet to gain his strength. He was blocked by the head of the White Council (Saruman) who already had designs on the ring. Dol Guldur was finally attacked at the same time as the events depicted in The Hobbit (but certainly NOT in the way depicted in the movie). Saruman relented and helped in the attack because he became aware of the fact that Sauron was searching for the ring (Dol Guldur not being far from the Gladden Fields where Isildur lost the ring and was killed by orc arrows).

Gandalf's reasons (and he carefully planned this entire effort) for sending the dwarves to Erebor were not completely altruistic. A simultaneous attack on Dol Guldur and Smaug would keep them from joining forces (although a defeat on both ends could have proved disastrous). In fact, Gandalf described his meeting Thorin as a seemingly "chance" meeting (though he knew it was not by chance) and from that meeting came the opportunity to divide the enemy. The Necromancer was driven from Dol Guldur, but it was only a feint and Sauron returned to his old stronghold of Barad-dûr. Smaug was killed and the north became a much safer place because of Gandalf's plan.

Think of how things might have turned out had these events not have taken place almost 80 years before the War of the Ring. Smaug threatening the Kingdom of Thranduil, Dale, Esgaroth, the Iron Hills, and Rivendell along with a stronghold in Dol Guldur capable of a deadlier assault on Lorien in general and its chief city, Caras Galadhon, in particular than was otherwise the case.

So, for me, that's where I go when I think about some BS comment that PJ put into the movie about Erebor being a key to Angmar.

 

[InCali]

I've had The Silmarillion on a shelf for a couple of years. Is it worth the read? I was about to read Last Exit to Brooklyn but can put it off.

You're asking ME???

 

[C. Lee]

I don't read everything printed on the LOTR books/history/movies etc, so I could have missed something. But from what I remember, Christopher Lee was a friend of Tolkien, from interviews and commentary and such he talks about how Jackson used his knowledge of Tolkien and their many talks about LOTR to do things in the movies. I don't remember ever hearing Lee mention that Tolkien had at some point decided that he absolutely didn't want his novels filmed. Since I remember Lee talking about how he and Tolkien had talked about what part Lee could play in a movie from the books, I would have thought that if Tolkien had so not wanted the books to be filmed he would have said something about that to Lee.

 

[regnak]

I don't read everything printed on the LOTR books/history/movies etc, so I could have missed something. But from what I remember, Christopher Lee was a friend of Tolkien, from interviews and commentary and such he talks about how Jackson used his knowledge of Tolkien and their many talks about LOTR to do things in the movies. I don't remember ever hearing Lee mention that Tolkien had at some point decided that he absolutely didn't want his novels filmed. Since I remember Lee talking about how he and Tolkien had talked about what part Lee could play in a movie from the books, I would have thought that if Tolkien had so not wanted the books to be filmed he would have said something about that to Lee.

That is an excellent point.

 

[Lord]

I think i remember reading that "although Tolkien didn't want a film adaptation of his book", he still gave his blessing for Christopher Lee as Gandalf.

 

[terry78]

Basically I've learned over the years is that a definite no from someone rarely means that, unless they just pass away without warning.

 

[regwec]

I am slightly doubtful that JRR endorsed Christopher Lee for Gandalf. JRR died in 1973, at which time Lee was 51. Such a conversation would almost certainly have occurred much earlier than that but, even if it didn't, Lee would have been much younger than an actor would be considered to play the "old and bent" Gandalf. Lee would actually have made a fantastic Aragorn at that point; much closer to the tall, gaunt Dunedain than Viggo Mortensen would later be.

I also remember saying that he had "met" JRR. To me, that suggests a level of acquaintance different from friendship.

Anyway, even if such a conversation did happen, it must have been after the fact of the movie rights having been sold. So JRR may have been in the frame of mind that it was better to make the best of a bad job.

 

[InCali]

I am slightly doubtful that JRR endorsed Christopher Lee for Gandalf. JRR died in 1973, at which time Lee was 51. Such a conversation would almost certainly have occurred much earlier than that but, even if it didn't, Lee would have been much younger than an actor would be considered to play the "old and bent" Gandalf. Lee would actually have made a fantastic Aragorn at that point; much closer to the tall, gaunt Dunedain than Viggo Mortensen would later be.

I also remember saying that he had "met" JRR. To me, that suggests a level of acquaintance different from friendship.

Anyway, even if such a conversation did happen, it must have been after the fact of the movie rights having been sold. So JRR may have been in the frame of mind that it was better to make the best of a bad job.

We're really into the "heavily speculation" zone here these days (And I mean all of us). t: That being said, I tend to believe (ie speculate) that, early on, JRR probably was "OK" with selling the rights, but became increasingly concerned after seeing the direction things were going. My "guess" is that Christopher couldn't stand what happened in the movies and hardened his stance against selling the rights to The Silmarillion.

One thing that's come out of this thread for me.....I think I'm going to buy some nice copies of the 12 individual hardback books of "The History of Middle-earth" and build a nice case for them. I should have just bought the first editions when they came out, but I was broke and, therefore, too cheap and short-sighted to do so. I ended up borrowing them and buying the paperback versions. Too bad for me......If anyone has any ideas about a good way to do this, let me know. I don't really want to spend the multiple 4 digits it evidently takes to get first edition copies.

 

[Destructus86]

I think it's a huge shame that we won't get future novels in the Middle Earth universe. Events that take place after the books. He made such an amazing and deep world...to just let it slip into history is practically a crime. :/

 

[regwec]

At least that means that Middle Earth is still bordered by the imagination. I think that is why it forms an integral part of so many people's psychological landscape.

 

[InCali]

I think it's a huge shame that we won't get future novels in the Middle Earth universe. Events that take place after the books. He made such an amazing and deep world...to just let it slip into history is practically a crime. :/

I think about that sometimes. Tolkien himself abandoned the idea after musing over a Fourth Age tale. He was so comprehensive in his dealings with the main characters coming out of the first 3 ages that it would be hard to fill in there. After the Third Age, the magic sort of left with the Elves.

 

[Lord]

I think it's a huge shame that we won't get future novels in the Middle Earth universe. Events that take place after the books. He made such an amazing and deep world...to just let it slip into history is practically a crime. :/

I definitely don't want to see it end up like Marvel and DC where other writers keep using the universe forever and making up stuff that the original creator would most likely be against.

 

[Marvolo]

I think it's a huge shame that we won't get future novels in the Middle Earth universe. Events that take place after the books. He made such an amazing and deep world...to just let it slip into history is practically a crime. :/

Tolkien envisioned it as a mythology/forgotten history of our real world. Continuing it endlessly defeats that purpose. Besides the three eleven rings left middle earth after the War of the Ring. Without them the elves left behind in middle earth and all they had built dwindled and the age of men began. Middle Earth became a different place. So like Tolkien said without the elves and the wizards ME becomes something else and he didnt have much desire to go their so he stopped writing the sequel. In Tolkien's mind the elves dwindled and the dwarves and all that magic dwindled and faded into myth and became what they are to us today. Legends myths etc.

 

[Roose Bolton]

With the occasional Morgoth cult

 

[regwec]

That's right. I think a tale in which the forces of good had already "won" would inevitably have a tone that was unsatisfactory in its variance from that of The Hobbit and LOTR.

Had Tolkien really wanted to write another "quest" novel, he might have been better persuaded to transmit one of the stories that would later appear in the Silmarillion in that style.

 

[InCali]

That's right. I think a tale in which the forces of good had already "won" would inevitably have a tone that was unsatisfactory in its variance from that of The Hobbit and LOTR.

Had Tolkien really wanted to write another "quest" novel, he might have been better persuaded to transmit one of the stories that would later appear in the Silmarillion in that style.

I think the only way to do it (and I'm not saying it would be satisfactory) would be to bring in the Blue Wizards. Tolkien himself said he suspected that they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that lasted beyond the fall of Sauron, so he may have been thinking along those lines also when he started his Fourth Age story "A New Shadow". Maybe not though because he also said something to the effect that there was no evil beyond the evil of men (I think there were other reasons also).

There were remnants of Elves, Dwarves, Ents, etc. left in the Fourth Age, but clearly they would never reach to power of their respective races during the Third Age. In fact, if you think about it, Tolkien's writings were all about the fading of power from the very beginning of his writings.

Yavanna created the two trees of Valinor, Laurelin and Telperion in the early days after the creation of Arda (the world) and could never duplicate that feat again as much of her power went into the creation. Nienna, one of the 8 Aratar (the great of the Valar) was able to bring forth the last fruit and flower of the trees which became the sun and the moon.

The end of the First Age and the downfall of Morgoth saw the mightiest host ever assembled against him. The end of the Second Age and the first defeat of Sauron (and the taking of the ring from him) saw the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. Yet Elrond himself (who saw both hosts) said the Last Alliance was not so mighty as the host that overthrew Morgoth. Clearly the Army assembled against Sauron at the end of the Third Age had no hope of defeating even a diminished Sauron (being without the ring). Anything in the Fourth Age would probably have continued, but I can guess that the army of men may have grown (along the lines, but not so dramatically, as the hosts of Numenor).

In any case, this is all conjecture (except for the fading of power of the those bound directly to the fate of Arda...i.e. Valar, Maiar, Elves, etc. and "not" Men) and the work was abandoned.

 

[Lord]

I won't lie, i would actualy have liked to see what kind of story Tolkien would bring in the 4th age, as well as Dagor Dagorath, but unless they find some 100+ more pages of Tolkien stories taking place post-Return of the King, i don't think anyone should touch that period.