Official The Ultimates Thread

[bkhedr]

Because of the probabilty bending? It's an alternate reality Thor? It's Thor before he was incarcerated? It's a clone?

LOL!

 

[mr. black]

Guys why did Thor's hair grow back, was it because he got Mjolnir and he belt back?

Nah, it's because it'd been so long since Hitch drew the last issue that he forgot what Thor looked like in the current arc.

 

[Horrorfan]

Oh, I agree. I just feel that if you can do things by talking instead of getting people killed, do it. I mean, I may be crazy, but I tend to find plans that don't involve mass deaths to be most apealing. And, that is what we've been doing, to a degree, with North Korea. We've been giving them massive aid, sending them food, medical supplies, and the such. It doesn't stop them from getting nukes, but it might make them less inclined to use them.

But then again, North korea can now blackmail us into aid, annd has been testing missiles regardless. Plus Kim seems like the kind of psycho that, on his death bed, would start firing nukes just because.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Yes but your joke hinged on the basis we both were against gay people having the same rights as married couples, and since we aren't (well I'm not) the joke kinda fails.

Yeah, and I really know squat about celldog's views on he matter either. The core of the joke was the assumption that all right wing conservatives are against gay marriage. You could have like 3 gay friends for all I know.

 

[Horrorfan]

Yeah, and I really know squat about celldog's views on he matter either. The core of the joke was the assumption that all right wing conservatives are against gay marriage. You could have like 3 gay friends for all I know.

Yeah I know...but the problem is, vary rarely does someone have completely left or right wing views. That's the problem of having a mainly two party system....either way you will probably get stuff you just plain don't agree with.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

You COULD be Communist or Libertarian. Then you'd have them.

 

[El Bastardo]

The Hank Pym content brought forth by chris keeps getting swept under the rug. t: I had a big post about it, too, but that got knocked out by the whimpering celldog.

 

[chris moore]

The entire issue of the comic keeps getting swept under the rug by this constant argung between celldog and the other wing/gay marriage/communist topic participants. Take that rubbish over to the community forum and get back to the actual important stuff

 

[SpideyInATree]

And hopfully on time and with better art than we've already seen.

I'm looking more forward to seeing Jeph Loeb on the book and take it into a completely new direction. I really enjoyed Millars run but he's worn out his welcome, in my opinion. It's probably mostly to the lateness of the book through the years, but...yeah, this book needs a new team and direction after their tale is finished.

 

[celldog]

The entire issue of the comic keeps getting swept under the rug by this constant argung between celldog and the other wing/gay marriage/communist topic participants. Take that rubbish over to the community forum and get back to the actual important stuff

How did I knock the topic off course?? I even posted a Pym comment myself. You guys are obsessed with ol' celldog.

 

[El Bastardo]

The entire issue of the comic keeps getting swept under the rug by this constant argung between celldog and the other wing/gay marriage/communist topic participants. Take that rubbish over to the community forum and get back to the actual important stuff

I concur. When it's died down some more I'll repost my thoughts.

 

[Darthphere]

The entire issue of the comic keeps getting swept under the rug by this constant argung between celldog and the other wing/gay marriage/communist topic participants. Take that rubbish over to the community forum and get back to the actual important stuff

If Ultimates #12 is "important" stuff, you need to get your goddamn priorities straight. And its clear to everyone that Ultimates is very politically driven, so if you read Ultimates, you should expect some sort of political debate.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah I know...but the problem is, vary rarely does someone have completely left or right wing views. That's the problem of having a mainly two party system....either way you will probably get stuff you just plain don't agree with.

Ha, well you could be green

 

[chris moore]

If Ultimates #12 is "important" stuff, you need to get your goddamn priorities straight. And its clear to everyone that Ultimates is very politically driven, so if you read Ultimates, you should expect some sort of political debate.

By the important stuff, I mean that this thread in supposed to be about the comic - which means the characters, the sub plots, the quality of the art, the direction of the story. You my friend, have just spent the last three pages in amongst a rant about gay marriage, bigotry, racism, political power etc. Not having a go at you in particular (and apologies to Celldog for making it look that way to him) - its about four or five people.

What it boils down to, is that we are all aware that **** happens out there in the world. It is true that the ultimates is very real world based and echoes many of the current issues out there. But we're here to discuss the comic itself - not how it mirrors all the crap that goes on in the world everyday. What? Are you all trying to bring us down? Comics are escapism from everyday life - dont chunter on about all the crap we know full well is out there on the thread about the fantastical if somewhat realistically portrayed world of the United States superhuman initiative. Next thing you know, cloning issues will be rampant on the spidey thread, depressing us all.

Annywayy - so, Wasp's got herself a serum huh? How do we think that plays into Hank's supposed treachery? Seems to me that Hank is so desperate for approval from his peers and his ex-wife, that given the level of friendship he and Jan had managed to attain before Cap's arrest, he would have had a hard time keeping something of his plan to himself in front of her.

 

[El Bastardo]

Wheeeeeeeee, reposted:

Oh, and in regards to the Hank thing...
BOOYAH. I've been calling this happening since he and his Ultrons came on the scene, what, three years ago?

Seriously, though, I had this nagging feeling that - well, not so much that Millar wouldn't dare kill a prominant cast member, but that it wasn't Hank's time. Or something like that. That, and he didn't fit with the rest of the Liberators. I figured he was working against them from the inside, and that when the tables turned, he'd trigger his robots to handle crowd control of the supersoldiers.
I was right. But I'm with chris, too. His motives are suspect, especially with that very, very, very damning line of dialogue he has about it. Line of dialogue hidden below:

Spoiler

In response to the Ultron robot asking if they should help his "fellow Liberators," Hank responds with: "Ah, yes. Yes, definitely. But make sure you help the Ultimates, Ultron. It's, ah, time we let them realize we were infiltrating the Liberators."

(The underlined portion is the aforementioned damning line of dialogue.)

I think that makes the possibility of him working as a mole by Fury kinda doubtful. It seems such a nervous line, and if he was working for Fury... why would he be doubtful? If anyone nearby, and I'll use Quicksilver since he appears here, doubts him, all he'd have to do is say "Hey, just ask Nick." On the other hand, if he's acting out of self-preservation and for his own selfish reasons, it seems much more acceptable. That raises the question, of course, as to what his selfish reason for getting in with the Liberators is: is it reason/motive A, in which he has decided he honestly hates the Ultimates, thus joins the Liberators, and when seeing his new teammates getting kicked around tries to sweep his involvement under the rug; or is it reason/motive B, in which he joined the Liberators in order to realize their plan, gain funding for his robots in order to show Nick and SHIELD what they and he can do, and ultimately help to defeat the Liberators and foil their plans all so that he can get back in with the group?

My original hypothesis was B. chris makes me wonder about A.
Ah, yes, the serum he gave to Jan (and I agree with chris as to what the time frame seems like) seems like it contributes more to B than A.

 

[jmubaraki]

I think its hilarious that captain Assh*le, I mean Captain America responds to captain Iraq's (can't remember his name) statement about "being executed" by saying "thats not what we do in THIS country" or something along those lines.. and then like two pages later Captain A executes captain iraq like a total hypocrite.
The best thing about the ultimates is the artwork, action and Millers total piss take of Captain america and the american military.
The storylines and dialogue are mostly average to meh.

Btw way this issue was really lousy. All that build up and miller just pissed it all away in this issue. I mean c'mon. The bad guys just fell apart (ultimate abomination dead WTF?? Thought they'd aleast save him for the soon to be ultimate hulk series or something. He went out like total *****). The pacing for the action was atrocious. The only thing saving this issue was the artwork and the fact that theres a final issue left in this arc that might just save this volume. Might.

 

[chris moore]

Well, the Colonel did say to Cap that he thought he was going to be dragged in front of Cap's fellow officers and executed before them and the public. Cap then killed him in the midst of the fight with no-one in particular watching, and therefore under battle conditions - so it wasnt hypocritical.

The point of them falling apart was to show that the only way they stood a chance against the Avengers (as they were more like and as the story name implies) was through subterfuge off the field. Soon as a flaw in that plan is utilised and its shown that they've underestimated the Ultimates even when incarcerated or removed from play, and its a fair fight superhuman to superhuman, they are proven unworthy of defeating the Ultimates.

More to the point, the Liberators took out all the reserves in face to face battle (granted it was a surprise attack) and a lotta ground troops and things - but when the true players in the superhuman game showed up (and this is why they are the primary team), the Liberators crumbled.

 

[CConn]

I really found the whole Cap/"The Colonel" fight to be pretty as an analogy. You have Cap as America with his high morals and beliefs, and you have the The Colonel as the suspicious, and maybe misunderstanding "rest of the world." The Colonel is suspicious of Cap, and definitely imploys wrong tactics against Cap. And Cap, while he doesn't quite commit the same sin as The Colonel, he does certainly, go a bit too far in killing The Colonel when he really didn't need to, and committed a bit of a wrong himself.

Y'know, people say Millar paints the US as evil in the book, I find the statements he makes through the book to be like the fight itself; he shows America as flawed, sure, but much like Captain America himself; its heart is in the right place. If anything, I think Millar paints this picture of how both sides sorta don't understand each other, and both do bad things and make mistakes because of it - even though their intentions may be good.

I'm not trying to get into any political debate or anything, but I did want to show that The Ultimates can be really deep at times, and really mean different things to different people. Above is how I feel about it, and one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. Other people have a much different take on it, but it's all very interesting to say the least.

 

[Kahoot]

I'm looking more forward to seeing Jeph Loeb on the book and take it into a completely new direction. I really enjoyed Millars run but he's worn out his welcome, in my opinion. It's probably mostly to the lateness of the book through the years, but...yeah, this book needs a new team and direction after their tale is finished.

Is it Millar that makes the books late or Hitch? I'm up for Loeb's take on The Ultimates after reading Superman/Batman but Joe Mad!

 

[jmubaraki]

Well, the Colonel did say to Cap that he thought he was going to be dragged in front of Cap's fellow officers and executed before them and the public. Cap then killed him in the midst of the fight with no-one in particular watching, and therefore under battle conditions - so it wasnt hypocritical.

Battle conditions? How is a man on his back in pool of water, whose just got his hands cut off, and his arms raised in the air in surrender, exactly "under battle conditions"?
Did you even look at those comic panels?
Captain Iraq was beaten. He had basically surrendered. And then Captain A decided to impale him with his own weapon. Yeah sounds really fair and square to me, nothing like an execution at all.

and CCon: "You have Cap as America with his high morals and beliefs"

Err.. say what?
If theres one thing the Ultimates run has made clear is that the ultimate Captain America is a military thug and a bully.
Exactly when does Cap show these high morals and beliefs?
When he kicked a defenseless naked bruce banner in the jaw? or when he proceeds to beat up hank pym and then steals his wife? or when he tries to pick a fight with thor at a night club, with innocent bystanders all around him, and has to be shamed into leaving peacefully? Or how about when he uses a flame thrower to burn Thors face and scalp? Yep I'm sure he was using his high morals then. Or how about when he threatens hank pym with violence just for talking to his ex wife? or lets see.. yeah the last issue.. where he kills a beaten defenseless opponent. Yep, our captain america.. really full of high beliefs and morals just like the real america.. uh huh.

Captain america from the main marvel universe (or even the captain A in the Ultimate avengers cartoon movies) is a good example of a character with high moral beliefs who actually upholds them for the most part in the adventures he partakes.

Ultimate Captain America is not a good example of these characteristics.

 

[iloveclones]

Battle conditions? How is a man on his back in pool of water, whose just got his hands cut off, and his arms raised in the air in surrender, exactly "under battle conditions"?
Did you even look at those comic panels?
Captain Iraq was beaten. He had basically surrendered. And then Captain A decided to impale him with his own weapon. Yeah sounds really fair and square to me, nothing like an execution at all.

and CCon: "You have Cap as America with his high morals and beliefs"

Err.. say what?
If theres one thing the Ultimates run has made clear is that the ultimate Captain America is a military thug and a bully.
Exactly when does Cap show these high morals and beliefs?
When he kicked a defenseless naked bruce banner in the jaw? or when he proceeds to beat up hank pym and then steals his wife? or when he tries to pick a fight with thor at a night club, with innocent bystanders all around him, and has to be shamed into leaving peacefully? Or how about when he uses a flame thrower to burn Thors face and scalp? Yep I'm sure he was using his high morals then. Or how about when he threatens hank pym with violence just for talking to his ex wife? or lets see.. yeah the last issue.. where he kills a beaten defenseless opponent. Yep, our captain america.. really full of high beliefs and morals just like the real america.. uh huh.

Captain america from the main marvel universe (or even the captain A in the Ultimate avengers cartoon movies) is a good example of a character with high moral beliefs who actually upholds them for the most part in the adventures he partakes.

Ultimate Captain America is not a good example of these characteristics.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Personally, I've really liked Ultimates, and to an extent, their version of Cap. I like that they deviated from MU Cap so much. In a way, it's much more realistic, if not a bit skewed.

But I will tell you that Cap is the main reason that my bro (an Army MP) dislikes the title. He hates that it gives this version of a soldier. I'm sure there are a lot of guys who like it, though. I always argue that he over-reacts to it, but then, I didn't exactly have grenades thrown at my head like he did. So I give his opinion on the matter a bit of leeway.

 

[jmubaraki]

Iloveclones,
I really like the ultimates too (except for that last issue). Hell, I own all 24 issues so far.. and I like What Miller has done with Captain America character in the ultimates.
But that does not mean I like the character himself. I have a real issue when people talk about that character as if he's some sort of hero in the book when quite clearly through out the whole series, he has been nothing but a jerk at best and a thug at worst. (hence the post above clearerly pointing out all the instance Captain A has been an ass)
Y'know what would have been cool, deserving, interesting and just plain gutsy? If miller had made Captain Iraq behead Captain Jerkwad America. Now that would have shown balls and taken the book somewhere interesting. Imagine the repercusions after Captain A's death at the hands of Captain Iraq. What would the rest of the Ultimates do? How would they have reacted to the death of their "friend"? What would they do to Captian Iraq? Would they Kill him in cold blood, just like He did to Captain A or what they have captured him and put him on trial? Now that would have made the interesting reading and put a new spin on where the book was going.

As of right now issue 12 v2 was just a lamer rehash of what happen in V1 issue 12, mixed in with some of the stuff miller has done on "The Authority".

It will be really interesting to see what the new team will bring to Vol 3 in the ultimates. I hope Hitch stays on for the artwork.. but I can't honestly say I will miss Millers writing or pacing after the last issue.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

Battle conditions? How is a man on his back in pool of water, whose just got his hands cut off, and his arms raised in the air in surrender, exactly "under battle conditions"?
Did you even look at those comic panels?
Captain Iraq was beaten. He had basically surrendered. And then Captain A decided to impale him with his own weapon. Yeah sounds really fair and square to me, nothing like an execution at all.

and CCon: "You have Cap as America with his high morals and beliefs"

Err.. say what?
If theres one thing the Ultimates run has made clear is that the ultimate Captain America is a military thug and a bully.
Exactly when does Cap show these high morals and beliefs?
When he kicked a defenseless naked bruce banner in the jaw? or when he proceeds to beat up hank pym and then steals his wife? or when he tries to pick a fight with thor at a night club, with innocent bystanders all around him, and has to be shamed into leaving peacefully? Or how about when he uses a flame thrower to burn Thors face and scalp? Yep I'm sure he was using his high morals then. Or how about when he threatens hank pym with violence just for talking to his ex wife? or lets see.. yeah the last issue.. where he kills a beaten defenseless opponent. Yep, our captain america.. really full of high beliefs and morals just like the real america.. uh huh.

Captain america from the main marvel universe (or even the captain A in the Ultimate avengers cartoon movies) is a good example of a character with high moral beliefs who actually upholds them for the most part in the adventures he partakes.

Ultimate Captain America is not a good example of these characteristics.

Actually, the Middle Eastern guy didn't surrender really. He just sat there and insulted him. I'll agree that was slightly execution-esque, and was totally unecessary, and probably would have found, in a real world situation, a Captain America in the brig waiting for review.

However, this Cap is not a thug. Bully? Sure, to some extent. Anybody with large amounts of power is destined to become some form of bully or another. But I wouldn't say he's all out.

I've already said how kicking Bruce was unecessary, and it was, but the Hulk DID just trash a good chunk of town and kill hundreds of people that Cap has sworn to protect.

Though I don't agree with the method, he beat up Pym for beating up Pym's wife, which was, back then, considered fairly virtuous, as he was basically handing out justice. But he, by no means, stole Janet from Pym. Janet, being the ****e she probably is like every other female in the Ultimates Universe, went to Cap.

He confronted Thor in a fairly innappropriate manner by just going out in public like that and yelled at him, but the other option was skulk around and avoid the subject forever until Thor came to them. Or I guess you would have preferred the "honorable" way of tricking him into the wilderness or something. Thor is ALWAYS around his followers, and spreading his word. Chances are the only way to talk to Thor at all was the large scale attack they DID later in that series. So the yelling at Thor thing was actually fairly fine, since the circumstances were fairly sensitive. And he wasn't shamed into leaving really, since Cap wasn't looking to smash his face in and was really only there to confront him with these circumstances. And granted, if someone told ME that some Asgardian trickster god did all these things, I'd probably think him crazy too. Any rational person would. That's why they call it rationality, and not faith.

Flame thrower on Thor? I don't know. Because it totally made sense to me that a small discus to the head would've worked tons better against a raging mad attacking superhuman considered to be the most powerful in the world by SHIELD. And judging how Thor has a high level of durability that involves getting in fights with the Hulk and come out without scars? I'm thinking a flamethrower just wasn't going to do much.

And if you think the 616 Cap is super high moral and high road type, you can also think again, as he does tons of behind the scenes work, not to mention instigated fighting on a large scale with the Civil War, when doing a political stand would've worked far better and quicker.

But hey, who knows? People just like biased arguments.

Ultimate Cap is a soldier. Pure and simple. Does what he's told, and holds up his moral beliefs. Not yours, definitely not mine, and not Tony Stark's or Thor's or anybody elses. Just his and his alone. Which is basically IDENTICAL to the moral structure of Cap in the 616, only Cap in the 616 will more frequently question his orders from time to time.

 

[chris moore]

With regards to Cap and the battle conditions: I dont agree with him killing the Colonel at all. I just see that the two of them have just been trying to kill one another using hand to hand combat and their personal weapons, then Cap gets ambushed, and the Colonel goes back on his word that he wants no one to interfere. So Cap was kinda justified in killing him. Its not really an example of kicking a man when he's down; its killing a man who wants nothing more than your death, who broke his word, who was about to execute you with his light sabre while you were restrained, and who would most likely try to kill you again by whatever means as soon as the op presented itself. I dont think the Colonel would have gone peacefully even had he surrendered and been shackled. He wasnt exactly yelling that he wanted to be treated as a prisoner of war under the Geneva Convention or anything now was he?

BUT! This version of Cap is a wanker. No question. I hate his personality, hate his morals, I hate his approach to most things. Maybe its a reaction to what the world has become despite the hard work and sacrifice he and his men made back in the day (cant imagine its the way soldiers of that era acted like this in any way at the time). I hate that he uses guns at any opportunity and fights dirty. He should be like a freakin Samurai! All honour bound and driven by his belief in the country and what its people stand for. But this Cap totally believes in the government of the country - something proven time and time again to be the opposite of what the 616 Cap believes in.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

With regards to Cap and the battle conditions: I dont agree with him killing the Colonel at all. I just see that the two of them have just been trying to kill one another using hand to hand combat and their personal weapons, then Cap gets ambushed, and the Colonel goes back on his word that he wants no one to interfere. So Cap was kinda justified in killing him. Its not really an example of kicking a man when he's down; its killing a man who wants nothing more than your death, who broke his word, who was about to execute you with his light sabre while you were restrained, and who would most likely try to kill you again by whatever means as soon as the op presented itself. I dont think the Colonel would have gone peacefully even had he surrendered and been shackled. He wasnt exactly yelling that he wanted to be treated as a prisoner of war under the Geneva Convention or anything now was he?

BUT! This version of Cap is a wanker. No question. I hate his personality, hate his morals, I hate his approach to most things. Maybe its a reaction to what the world has become despite the hard work and sacrifice he and his men made back in the day (cant imagine its the way soldiers of that era acted like this in any way at the time). I hate that he uses guns at any opportunity and fights dirty. He should be like a freakin Samurai! All honour bound and driven by his belief in the country and what its people stand for. But this Cap totally believes in the government of the country - something proven time and time again to be the opposite of what the 616 Cap believes in.

First off, if he were a samurai, he would suck. Not just a little, not just a lot, but suck like my twin sucks. You know? That nasty ****ty ****e who'll bang a guy because his car is red.


His personality is extremely abrasive, especially in our day and age, since his personality is more of the "Get it done directly, get it done right, get it done now" mentality, where our mentality of today is more or less "Wait and see how things develop" mentality. He's extremelly non-passive, and that pisses some people off obviously, since most people have adapted an extremely passive and tolerant idea of the world since his time.

Though I agree, he's an ass. But not as bad as some people would like to place him.