Official Young Avengers Discussion Thread

[Harlekin]

Meh.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm inclined to echo that sentiment at this point. If it were a monthly, I might've picked it up. But we wait about 5 years for this, only to get the news that it'll take another 2 years and change just to get all 9 issues? F*** that. Maybe I'll pick up the trade, but it's far likelier that I'll just ignore this and wait for whatever happens after the Young Avengers are finally free from Heinberg's grubby paws.

 

[kguillou]

Wait, did it say it will take two years to do this or were they already working on it for two years? I read it as the latter.

 

[Kevin]

9 issues, Bi-monthly = 18 months. Almost 2 years.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yep. Get ready to wait. Or, given that this is Young Avengers, just keep on waiting like you have been for half a decade.

 

[kguillou]

Oooh ok. Yeah that sucks indeed. If they've been working on it for two then why hasn't Cheung already drawn the freakin thing?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Maybe Heinberg hasn't been giving him scripts until recently. Dude's been working on TV shows.

 

[Dread]

Even with a schedule of 1 issue every 2 months for 18 months, I bet it will STILL run late.

The last mini that had a similar schedule that I read for as long was JUSTICE, which was entertaining but probably not worth the 2 year wait to finish. I doubt this will be, either.

Saving the resolution of the Scarlet Witch storyline to Heinberg was a huge, huge mistake. The squandering of the YA was a bigger one. Their SIEGE one shot actually sold decently, but one has to keep in mind retailers were given little information about those SIEGE one shots until right about when they ordered, so they were just going in blind. For the record, SIEGE:YOUNG AVENGERS from April was the lowest selling of the five, selling just under 44k for a $3 one shot. The SECRET WARRIORS one shot outsold it, which perhaps is telling. If one assumes that the first issue of this series debuts around that number, that means that by 2012, the last issues might be somewhere at 20k. That is if you rationally look at sales and make logical expectations, which almost no one at Marvel does now.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Unlettered preview of Young Avengers: The Children's Crusade #1

 

[Mogwai]

cheung's work is amazing.

 

[Dread]

So amazing it is worth a 5 year wait, and 2 years to complete this story? I'm not sure. A lot of it is also amazing inking and color work. Cheung's a good artist when he is on.

I probably will begrudgingly get this, but I don't think it will deliver, and I think Marvel were fools for waiting so long to resolve this story, especially since Heinberg has, quite literally, run horribly late on every single comic project he has written alone. The only one that shipped on time was an arc of JLA that he wrote alongside Geoff Johns, who I imagined carried a bit of the load. There are plenty of other writers who could have resolved this storyline, and I think Marvel waited too long for the franchise to cool.

None of that is Cheung's fault, although it is telling that they have to keep outdated costumes on because, well, having him redraw stuff would probably delay things another few years...

If this is the storyline that ends M-Day, then M-Day is going to last until 2012.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

cheung's work is amazing.

That is is

 

[TheCorpulent1]

So amazing it is worth a 5 year wait, and 2 years to complete this story? I'm not sure.

I am. It's not.

 

[Dread]

I am. It's not.

Yeah, probably not. But I'm partisan on buying it as of now. It may depend on how big a week it's debut week is. If it's one of those "5 books or less" weeks, it has a chance. If it debuts in one of those 10 comic wallet busters, than probably not.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

It's definitely not on my buy list. If anything, I may pick it up as a trade in a couple years in anticipation of whatever comes next for the Young Avengers when they're finally free of Heinberg's stranglehold.

 

[Dread]

It's definitely not on my buy list. If anything, I may pick it up as a trade in a couple years in anticipation of whatever comes next for the Young Avengers when they're finally free of Heinberg's stranglehold.

The thing is, did Heinberg demand to have that stranglehold in place, or did Marvel editorial foolishly decide on it, and thus ruined what was once a thriving B-Level franchise due to neglect? Either way, it's been woefully mishandled, which is a shame.

 

[The Geek Vault]

I'll try to pick it up but most likely be getting the full run on trade

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The thing is, did Heinberg demand to have that stranglehold in place, or did Marvel editorial foolishly decide on it, and thus ruined what was once a thriving B-Level franchise due to neglect? Either way, it's been woefully mishandled, which is a shame.

Who cares? Either way, their handling of the situation has convinced me neither of them deserves my money.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

i actually really liked the first issue... it's nice to get everything back finally.. the feel as a whole is as if they never had a long break so i give them props for that. I really hope the full 9 issues pans out to be worth the wait.

also really love how there handling Billy and Teddy... Heinbergs really the only writer who bothers to develop there relationship.

 

[Dread]

My review with re-spoilers:

AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE #1: May as well get this out of the way first. The short end of it is that as a comic this isn't so bad, but as an idea it has become a symbol of everything that is wrong with comics in general and the Joe Quesada, sans Jemas, era of Marvel in particular. You have shameless pandering to a disinterested, arrogant Hollywood talent. You have the fans who are stupidly loyal being ripped off and suckered at every turn. You have a once hot franchise that has now become a footnote due to editorial mismanagement that has lasted a full Presidential term's worth of time. And above all, you have a comic that is late that is being treated as if one should be happy it was even released at all. No, it isn't quite as bad as the Lindeloff ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK debacle, but then again, that comic didn't hold up two franchises. This did.

On the first page it becomes apparent - the editor is apologizing that artist Jimmy Cheung's costumes for Iron Man and Steve Rogers don't match up. It seems art on this started a long time ago (they say "many months" but I'd guess about 2007), and as late as this is, expecting Cheung to redraw many pages or panels to get it timely would make this thing even later, possibly into the next decade. So the fan is expected to shrug it off. Now, in truth it is a minor thing, and at least it is acknowledged. But there is no apology. There is no, "We are sorry we have dragged this out so long, and we are sorry we are asking for $36 over 18 months for a story that is four years late, but we're greedy, and we see you as ignorant suckers with wallets, and retailers as inconvenient pawns," sort of statement. No, the fan is simply expected to accept something that has been less than professionally produced at the highest price standard. If nothing else, this series shows that Marvel editorial see their fans as the dumbest creatures on the face of the earth, who deserve to be fleeced for all they are worth.

And maybe we are, because I bought this, at least.

To recap: Allen Heinberg and Jim Cheung from 2005-2006 produced a 12 issue run of this series, and an annual. Andrea DiVito filled in art for two issues, and the annual also had art by others. But that is modest; even many of those 12 issues were late, especially the last few issues. After that, fans were promised a "season two" from this team, and Marvel kept promising it was coming. Editorial decided that the Young Avengers as a franchise should go into a lockbox until Heinberg was able to write another arc or two for them again. The problem was this allowed the franchise, which had actually become a modest, B-List hit selling 65k at issue at WORST, to grow stale, ignored, and irrelevant. In the four years since, the YA have existed as one semi-annual mini series after the next. These mini's tended to be obligatory, random, "fleece the suckers" sort of crossover tie ins that matter in no way to the crossover itself. As such, we got one for CIVIL WAR, one for SECRET INVASION, and one for DARK REIGN. We even got a one-shot for SIEGE. Two of them also featured the Runaways, a team that Marvel decided was not as important to keep in a box apart from it's launch creative team of Brian K. Vaughan and Adrian Alphona, and thus other writers and artists were allowed to write them (for better or worse) in important ways. Sure, RUNAWAYS volume 3 got canceled, but they're still a cult hit, and are getting a movie. The Young Avengers are DONE; Marvel just doesn't realize it yet. They may when this debut barely cracks the Top 50 list. And if Marvel is happy that a franchise that was a B-List hit in 2006 is now a D-List bottom feeder with fewer reliable fans than AGENTS OF ATLAS seem to muster, though, then it is still a success. The horrible irony is that while tasked with thankless, irrelevant stories to tell with the YA, some of the writers proved they easily could have taken the franchise over if tasked to, such as Zeb Wells or even Chris Yost (his mini wasn't so bad). Christos Gage could probably have killed on it. But, instead, into the lockbox it went. The only characters that got some sort of emotional development were Stature and Vision II, mostly by being rescued by Dan Slott for a year and change for MIGHTY AVENGERS. Not even an Ed Brubaker issue of YOUNG AVENGERS PRESENTS broke 35k sales once; that should be a disturbing sign.

Spoiler

This issue, ironically, makes it seem very clear how new and raw these characters are. They are at least 5 years old, and many of them are still stuck in stock cipher mode. Some of the dialog feels interchangeable or stereotypical (Speed, who is Pietro Lite, is there for every snide one liner). I'd argue Maria Hill and Agent Brand have grown more in three years than this lot have in a half decade. Some have criticized this franchise because while the title implies that these are supposed to be the next generation of Avengers, in practice they are, arguably, side-kicks that no heroes want. Stature and Vision II served as Avengers and appeared in many titles, so one can see "Jonas" taking over for "Victor Shade" or even Cassie Lang trying to fill the shoes of her dad or even Giant-Man on occasion. But the rest? Kate Bishop being called Hawkeye despite Barton retaking the name seems sillier than ever. DC once had two Green Arrow's, but we all knew which one was the "real" one, and which was just some dumb kid too stubborn to take a unique name. Hulkling has a retconned legacy (the son of Mar-Vell and Skrull royalty), but his name is misleading in that regard. Besides, Noh-Varr has taken over that role as the next Captain Marvel (as Protector), even if it makes no sense to. If Patriot wants to be the latest Captain America sidekick to be ignored by the genuine article, then he has to join the line behind Jack Flag and Free Spirit, and ahead of Rikki Barnes.

The story focuses on the Young Avengers taking on some Sons of the Serpent terrorists, and things get heated when Hulkling provokes one of the bigots by being both an alien, and a homosexual. Wiccan lets loose with a burst of his power, saving everyone from a dirty bomb but rendering all of the terrorists comatose. This concerns the adult Avengers on scene (Iron Man, Rogers, and Ms. Marvel), who don't want Wiccan to become the next Scarlet Witch. A summary of HOUSE OF M is given, which is good because that was five years ago. Wiccan believes that he and his brother Tommy are in fact the lost children of Wanda in spirit, if not biologically. The adults claim that Wanda is missing and can't be found, which is actually a bit of a lie; Clint Barton found her, and ****ed her, but didn't get any answers out of her. Dr. Strange was told this, but apparently he and Clint kept that bit secret. The adults want to "test" Wiccan and keep an eye on him. Ultimately, the Young Avengers stand together and decide to set out to find Wanda and settle things, once and for all. Wiccan wants to see if Wanda can be redeemed by this knowledge to undo M-Day; Stature wants to see if Wanda will resurrect her father like she did to Barton; Hulkling loves Wiccan and will see anything he does to the end; Speed things Wiccan is daft but wants to help in his own way, and the rest of the team is just there to be loyal and friendly. It is worth noting that Dan Slott wrote Stature as being genuinely vengeful towards Wanda, and likely would have fought her if they met, which to me seemed more natural. What, just because Wanda is pretty, she can murder a heroine's father and be shown endless compassion?

The issue with the costumes actually isn't a big deal. The problem is some of Cap's dialog at times makes me wonder if he is supposed to be Rogers or Barnes; I assume Rogers, but then why is Rogers wanting to make a flight competition with Wiccan? Wiccan and Hulkling seem to be the focus of this story, and while I thought their interaction with each other was great, I do wonder what their personalities are beyond "being gay". Teddy is more aggressive, although Wiccan can be more so when provoked. Their relationship is treated with a bit of maturity, and isn't full of vulgar stuff or cliches, but I do wonder if Heinberg seriously believes that it alone counts as character details in 2010. Wiccan is hesitant about things, but when he settles on things, he is determined. Teddy I suppose is the supportive type, as despite his Kree strength he isn't overly aggressive like his name would imply. And it is hard for it to be a major plot point that Billy and Tommy MUST be twins because they look alike, when Cheung usually makes a lot of faces similar (it is like a story where there are twins in a Mark Bagley comic). Aside for that the art is good, with some great inkwork and colors that make it pop.

In many ways the cover alone has some quirks. It is worth mentioning that Marvel no longer has faith in the YOUNG AVENGERS title, even for their own stories. Thus, AVENGERS is front and center. That alone is telling, an admission of their mishandling. Whether retailers will be fooled, or just order this like yet another YA mini, is unknown. Wolverine and Spider-Man are also in the cover and they have absolutely nothing to do with the story (while Ms. Marvel, who does, is absent from the cover). Spider-Man's only technical appearance is during Iron Man's holographic recap of House of M; Wolverine's just there as a draw.

In truth this actually isn't so bad at all. The dialog isn't bad and there's a lot of action at the start. Some of the interactions flow and feel natural. I actually do like how the relationship between Billy and Teddy is handled overall. That said, I don't think this is worth $4 an issue, and if I may be so blunt, I don't think Allen Heinberg was the only writer in the known universe who could have written an issue under the premise of, "and now the kids go find Wanda" that came out at least like this. If this is where this was all going, then Marvel could have credited Heinberg as a co-plotter/creator and had another writer handle it at least two years ago. In truth not only have the YA been in limbo, but perhaps the X-Men as well. Wanda is needed to end the M-Day storyline, which for five years has skipped from one over-hyped anti-climax to the next and stifled the franchise. If M-Day has to last for at least another 18 months, that means it would be late 2011 by the time the X-Men can finally see some light at the end of the tunnel, and six years is a very long time to invest in a failure of a status quo. Not even Brubaker's run on CAPTAIN AMERICA has yet lasted six entire years (that anniversary comes in November). If Marvel seriously believes that X-Men fans will be happy that the end of a 3 year series of crossovers ends in an anti-climax before a pointless vampire brawl, then they don't deserve them. Those fans should seriously start reading INVINCIBLE or something.

I digress. In execution, this comic isn't so bad. I do like the ploy to try to find and redeem Wanda. The last page has Magneto show up, and I am curious how this will tie into things.

The art is good and it did feel like those YA comics of old that got some people jazzed up. I just think that the magic that Heinberg does with the script isn't as unique as Marvel believes, and this may be too little, too late, at too high a price, coming out at too slow a rate. The question for YA fans is, it is worth paying $36 across 18 months until 2011 to resolve a story that was promised in 2006, and was at best overdue by 2008. It is possible I could be wrong, this becomes an EISNER winner and sells as well as SECRET AVENGERS #1 did. But the yoke of all of the problems of this franchise - the lateness, the five year abandonment of it's creator, the years of futile promises, the price tag, the schedule - is there to bring it down a peg. Still not bad, though.

To add, it would be nice if the kids did some research so they could call the Avengers on their hypocrisy involving Wiccan and Wanda, even. For instance, THE CROSSING still happened - and that was a story in which Iron Man went mad and killed quite a few of his friends. Sure, Kang/Immortus was behind it, and HEROES REBORN magically fixed it. But, still. That was before Iron Man went power mad again during and after CIVIL WAR. It was Cap and Iron Man who decided the Sentry was worth gambling on, and he proved to consistently be a psychotic demi-god who slaughtered many in Ohio. And one might even say that HOUSE OF M only happened because the Avengers had decided the only way to help Wanda was to execute her (these are the same Avengers who never executed Kang, or Red Skull, or any actual villains) and even then, she refused to kill any of them for good aside for Jack Of Hearts and Scott Lang. That's like if the Justice League decided they needed to kill Zatanna to stop her from mind-wiping people, and even after that she refused to kill any of them except for Rocket Red.

It actually would be interesting if there was a story or stories where all the young heroes saw their world as a collection of an "Old Boy's Network" and that their lives were usually seen as canon fodder just to deal with one of "their" threats. If Iron Man and Steve Rogers have a fight, all the young heroes are expected to be drafted and fight for their lives over a spat that has nothing to do with them. It's like that bit from SECOND COMING where new characters from the 2000's are expected to die to save Magik, a relic of the 1980's who is thus "more important" and some, like Anole, don't like being in the ghetto. It might be funny if some old time Avengers threat showed up and the adult Avengers once again sought to rally the kids behind them to sacrifice them, and they collectively said, "Y'know what? No, sir. You guys are immortal, you never, ever die. You're the ones who start all these messes. We're the future, but our future never comes. Wolverine will never die. Rogers will never die. Y'know who died? Dwayne Taylor. Microbe. Hornet. They'll NEVER be back, ever ever ever. We're just your infantry, and half of you don't even want to help us, except when you just want our bodies to absorb the first wave of fire. At least Osborn was cynical and honest about how didn't give a damn about our lives if it didn't suit what he wanted. So, y'know what? Fix it yourself. It's hard enough risking our lives for the fights that mean something to us, it becomes suicidal doing so for the fights that matter to you."

And the adult heroes would go, "Fine, ungrateful brats, see if we care!" And then the next time the big event comes, say, Surtur as a cyborg zombie dragon, Cap and Iron Man will do what they usually do; make sure the Young Avengers, Young Allies, and Slingers are right in front.

"I know we don't want you to be heroes nor respect you nor give you any benefit of the doubt. But it's a mass brawl, and we need another 20 for background fodder. C'mon, be an Avenger!"

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Did Cap go back on supporting the Young Avengers or something? I thought he'd been encouraging them as heroes 100% for a while now.

 

[Dread]

By "encouraging them", that just means Rogers calls them in for a raid on SIEGE while doing nothing to ever help them when they need it. Rogers would rather various teen side-kick try outs operate isolated and alone rather than take another partner, yet when it's time for a mass battle, he's perfectly happy leading those kids into a fire fight.

- Taking, say, Patriot or Nomad or Jack Flag as his partner - "Heavens no, son! That's too dangerous!"
- Leading a fleet of jailbait canon fodder into a "hell on earth" battle in Oklahoma against an army of super-villains. "Follow me, you're ALL Avengers now!"

Even going back to the New Warrior days, the adult Marvel heroes have a poor record with genuinely helping and embracing young heroes. Even Silverclaw got deported, and she was Jarvis' foreign exchange kid. Nova and Jack Flag had to literally leave earth to do better for themselves, and arguably Darkhawk too. He'd be dead if he'd stayed on earth. Hood would have killed him in some throwaway panel.

Wolverine could literally decapitate a young hero, and no one, not SHIELD or anyone else, holds him responsible. But the mere POSSIBILITY of Wiccan's powers fluxing, and all of a sudden he's top priority. I might add that Wiccan's "unstable" powers were the only thing that saved Hulkling from being beaten to death by the Wrecking Crew in Asgard - a battle Rogers gladly led them into.

I blame a lack of editorial vision, to be honest. AVENGERS ACADEMY is a good first step, but that's more for new original creations, not heroes who've already been around. It's not in character for adult heroes to be so wishy washy about teenage heroes, but it was also out of character for all of them to not give a damn about mutants beyond whatever members were occasionally on their teams for 20 years. There needs to be a little more cohesion and a little more focus on logical character conclusions.

 

[NightBeetle]

Avengers: Children's Crusade #2 Preview

 

[NightBeetle]

Avengers: Children's Crusade #2 Preview

 

[Dread]

Hmm. That does seem a bit awkward. While it may make sense for the Avengers to immediately attack Magneto if he popped up in NYC after being inactive for a while, Wolverine's with them. The same Wolverine on about 3-5 X-Men teams. Doesn't he know Magneto's been working with Cyclops and the X-Men for quite a while lately? He helped defend Utopia from Predator X drones, among other threats to all 200 mutants left alive. He brought Shadowcat back to earth from space, after all, when it seemed neither Mr. Fantastic or Dr. Strange were capable of doing so. Shouldn't Logan at least be telling the Avengers that it may not be so simple as a beat-down?

Then again, at least as revealed in the pages of AVENGERS VS. AGENTS OF ATLAS, Wolverine doesn't tell the Avengers anything about his X-Men adventures, even when it might be useful to avoid needless aggression. And that's the guy Tony Stark DEMANDED be an Avenger, kids!