Question for Atheists

[Diamondhead]

We can’t absolutely be sure of anything anymore!
Science has teach us a lot of theories so Far
But can we be absolutely sure of their theories and other stuff?
No!
Lots of people believed that dinosaurs roam the earth 65 millions years ago!
But is that really a fact?
No!
Dinosaurs as a matter of fact weren’t even as big as they made them to be.
In fact even the famous T-rex was probably just as big as an ostrich

The expansion of the universe has created the illusion that the fossilized remains of those
“Primitive” creatures was huge when in fact after hundreds of millions of years
Even if they find your fossilized skeleton in a rock
It would appear that you were a giant when in fact you were not.

It’s like drawing something on a piece of rubber band and stretches it
Eventually it will deforms it and even created some fracture to the drawings
Such is the way the expansion work,
It deforms the truth and creates fractures
Therefore it causes everything to get old and decay.

Some scientist might tells you that the expansion don’t affect cell structures
And it’s only in betweens and other stuff like that
But I don’t think so.

Since we can’t find the theory of everything or even a simple life equation to explain everything
I don’t see any harm in letting people believe in whatever they want
After all, isn’t there something magic about our consciences?
If it tell us that there is something more!
Than it’s better to believe in something than to be an atheist with no goal in life

After all!
It as if in the beginning the universe was aware of itself
So it started to find a way to design and create something to put it vast consciousness
To escape eons of every day routines and boredom
So it finally came up with us.
We inherited that consciousness.
Just as one day we’ll create machine to inherit our knowledge and consciousness as well.

 

[psychocheeseman]

It doesn't matter what evidence about evolution you post or how many scriptures you post, because on this issue both sides are close minded to the others point of view. I mean thats whats great about free will is we have the right and ability to believe how we want, And like I said in an earlier post my only reason for getting involved now is because I want to understand the other side atheism and its beliefs.

the point of this thread was originally about how atheists in general aren't close minded. And how religious people demanded an impossibly high standard of proof from atheists, yet have an unbeliveable low standard of proof for their own beliefs.

 

[Hyper Venom]

If God originally created humans as perfect beings, that means that we'd all be a race of Gods as well, and thus infallible, and we wouldn't fall prey to the temptations of a snake. Hence, God did not create humans as perfect beings.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

the point of this thread was originally about how atheists in general aren't close minded. And how religious people demanded an impossibly high standard of proof from atheists, yet have an unbeliveable low standard of proof for their own beliefs.

Some religious people may but I don't.

 

[Mike_D202]

oh crap stormy precious is in the forum.
this thread about to get a heavy dose of insane/scary/fundamentalist/*****ebaggery.

I think it already has

I kind of understand where S_H_F is coming from. I'm not a Christian and I'm not an atheist, but I think a lot of atheists do go around acting very arrogantly and could use more humility in their lives. It's not really just about belief in a God, its their general lifestyle and ways they treat other people. I know a lot of atheists tend to overestimate their good nature and confuse their own ambitions with morality. It is often quite easy for people to get frustrated in the heat of the moment and justify treating others badly and as objects. I think what S_H_F is getting at is there is a concept of morality that is independent of humanity and you have to work at getting it. Just relying on yourself can be dangerous because everyone has dangerous self-observed impulses and self-defense mechanisms to protect themselves from moral judgement.

 

[squeekness]

the point of this thread was originally about how atheists in general aren't close minded. And how religious people demanded an impossibly high standard of proof from atheists, yet have an unbeliveable low standard of proof for their own beliefs.

I thought the point of this thread was a condemnation of atheists who still celebrate religious holidays.

 

[Bill]

Actually, humanity did when Adam & Eve freely chose to give in to temptation, rather than resisting it.

And who made humanity? And not only made them, but knew they would fail.

 

[Bill]

I thought the point of this thread was a condemnation of atheists who still celebrate religious holidays.

That's a different thread with the same title.

 

[squeekness]

That's a different thread with the same title.

*checks first post* Ah, I see. Thanks. Nothing like originality.

 

[squeekness]

What would it take for you to change your beliefs?

I myself am an atheist, technically because my disbelief is based on science and reasoning i'm an agnostic, but when i tell people i'm an agnostic they assume that i'm either a fence sitter or i haven't given the issue much thought, which i have.

I've asked this question to atheists because most religious people are closed minded whereas most atheists have rational thought out reasons for their disbelief. But if you have a religious belief feel free to chime in with what it would take you to change your mind

Here's a good starting point for what it would take me to change my view points. (i'm lazy i stole this.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqUsC2KsiI

I am not a closed minded Christian, but I think what would make some atheists change their minds would be if people who claim to be Christian actually acted like it. If a Christian gets up and says "You're a sinner and you're going to Hell," what incentive is there for anyone to change? Like most people, I don't respond well to threats. What gets my attention is people out there working with the homeless and the needy and those folks who give up things so that the less fortunate can do better. We need to lead by example, not by shouting and pointing fingers. I think that's what Christ wants us to do, not stand on a corner of arrogant self righteousness, condemning whoever walks by that we don't like. That's what I think.

 

[Bill]

OK, Sparkle; I'm gonna try my best to make this crystal-clear for you. In the beginning, when God created humanity, He made them perfect. He gave them the free will to abandon that perfection, because He knew that otherwise, their love wouldn't be from the heart, and thus worthless to Him.

Then he did not make them perfect. Perfection cannot become imperfection unless it was imperfect to begin with. A perfect person with free will can only make the perfect decision. If they make an imperfect decision, then they aren't perfect. And since God created an imperfect being, he himself is not perfect.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Bill]

I am not a closed minded Christian, but I think what would make some atheists change their minds would be if people who claim to be Christian actually acted like it. If a Christian gets up and says "You're a sinner and you're going to Hell," what incentive is there for anyone to change? Like most people, I don't respond well to threats. What gets my attention is people out there working with the homeless and the needy and those folks who give up things so that the less fortunate can do better. We need to lead by example, not by shouting and pointing fingers. I think that's what Christ wants us to do, not stand on a corner of arrogant self righteousness, condemning whoever walks by that we don't like. That's what I think.

My decision on belief rests with the improbability of the Bible and the god it describes. Christianity is just another cult, tamer than some, worse than others. I don't really care what Christians act like. I can be a good person and still not be a Christian.

 

[Addendum]

the point of this thread was originally about how atheists in general aren't close minded. And how religious people demanded an impossibly high standard of proof from atheists, yet have an unbeliveable low standard of proof for their own beliefs.

But the atheists aren't the one's making the claim. The religious person makes the claim that the god-claim of the religion the religious person follows exists. The burden of proof falls onto the religious

 

[SentinelMind]

then you are both idiots.

May I ask who this is reference to and could you try explain why? Can you at least try making posts with content that doesn't resort to attacking others personally? Why do you feel the need to belittle those who disagree with personally?

 

[Space Moose]

I'm a born-again Christian, but here's my testimony, so you'll know why I made the choice myself.

I was raised in a strict "turn or burn" religious environment. By the time I was thirteen, I was seriously questioning a lot of things (I kept going to church mostly to see the few friends I had, not necessarily because of any real interest in God). My father had left before I was born, and my mother was a borderline workaholic, so I was raised primarily by my aunt and uncle.

By sixteen, I was battling lust issues, and by 18 it was an extremely-intense emotional, mental, and (as I would later realize) spiritual war. I wound up in a homeless shelter, about 6 months before my 21st birthday. It was there that I fell in love with a woman also at the shelter. About two months later, she married another man whom she met there, and within a couple months of that, she believed him to be cheating on her. So, she came to see me, and a few days later, I moved in with her to a hotel room. I gave up my virginity through outright adultery, all because I was desperate to be loved. Six days later, her husband returned, and I was left alone...again. It hurt worse than anything else before or since.

In my anger, I raged against God, screaming into the darkness that night: "If this is the price for love...if this is the price for You or faith, then I want nothing to do with any of it! Leave me alone!!!" For the better part of the next year, my life was a steadfast nightmare. My ex came back to Texas from Pennsylvania, and we made another go-round as a couple, before unresolved tensions over the past caused us to break up again. She fell for and ran away with yet another man to Georgia. I was angry, hurt, and extremely heartbroken. I'd given up everything I really cared about, and had nothing to show for it but despair and loneliness. I re-embraced Christ, and over the last few years, things have been difficult, but I'm still keeping the faith. I stumbled once more with my ex over a year ago, but have since repented, and I know that God has truly forgiven me. I got briefly into smoking and drinking, and am proud to say I haven't been drunk in a year.

My life had become corrupted by hatred, lust, adultery, fornication, alcohol, and so much heartbreak; the memories still flash back some days. God was able to lift me up, out of what I'd allowed myself to become. I was suicidal; it was that bad. The only reason I didn't go through with it was because I distinctively heard a still voice, like an audible whisper: "Put down the knife. This isn't the way. Put it down." I asked why, and was instantly flooded with what I can only describe as a vision. My ex was sitting in a cemetery, and my name was on the tombstone in front of her. Through her tears, the only thing I could understand was, "Why did you do this? Was it because of me?"

God can use anything for His Kingdom, and He knew how real my love for this woman really was, even if the actions resulting from it were wrong. He showed me what would happen if I took my own life, and so I dropped the blade, and made the choice to live. If God can save me from my own foolishness and redeem me of my past, then surely He can do the same for anyone who's willing to trust Him...all it takes is a brief moment, and your life is changed forever. Trusting God more than myself is rarely easy, but I love what Steve Harvey once said about faith: "You may not be where you want to be, but you can sure be thankful you ain't where ya was, though."

Yawn...

 

[Mr Sparkle]

We can’t absolutely be sure of anything anymore!
Science has teach us a lot of theories so Far
But can we be absolutely sure of their theories and other stuff?
No!
Lots of people believed that dinosaurs roam the earth 65 millions years ago!
But is that really a fact?
No!
Dinosaurs as a matter of fact weren’t even as big as they made them to be.
In fact even the famous T-rex was probably just as big as an ostrich

what does the size of a dinosaur have to do with the fact it roamed the earth?
plus "was probably" is even less specific than any scientific theory I've read.
plus, I might add, you sound like a nut.

The expansion of the universe has created the illusion that the fossilized remains of those
“Primitive” creatures was huge when in fact after hundreds of millions of years
Even if they find your fossilized skeleton in a rock
It would appear that you were a giant when in fact you were not.

again, exactly what's your point?
your science is flawed, really flawed, seems like you're either copying and pasting or not really thinking.
"primitive creatures was huge"?
seriously, your post is hurting my brain.

It’s like drawing something on a piece of rubber band and stretches it
Eventually it will deforms it and even created some fracture to the drawings
Such is the way the expansion work,
It deforms the truth and creates fractures
Therefore it causes everything to get old and decay.

what the ****? that sounds like a bad myspace poem.

Some scientist might tells you that the expansion don’t affect cell structures
And it’s only in betweens and other stuff like that
But I don’t think so.

oh, YOU don't think so.
I mean, some "scientists" might study stuff and have research grants and stuff.
but YOU don't think so.

you

don't
think so.


well, that's it, you've convinced me, Dinosaurs "was" much smaller than what scientists might "tells" us.

Since we can’t find the theory of everything or even a simple life equation to explain everything
I don’t see any harm in letting people believe in whatever they want
After all, isn’t there something magic about our consciences?
If it tell us that there is something more!
Than it’s better to believe in something than to be an atheist with no goal in life

1.- religious fundamentalism has often slowed down scientific progress
2.- Our conscience is not Christian by default
3.- you incorrectly and sadly assume that without the Christian god there is no goal in life, and in fact that without god there is no goal in life, when the point of religion is living for death.
fact is, atheists have more of a "goal in life" than most religious people, since they believe that they are not going to some magical place in the sky.

After all!
It as if in the beginning the universe was aware of itself
So it started to find a way to design and create something to put it vast consciousness
To escape eons of every day routines and boredom
So it finally came up with us.
We inherited that consciousness.
Just as one day we’ll create machine to inherit our knowledge and consciousness as well.

ooooookay.
well, here's a ball.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

May I ask who this is reference to and could you try explain why? Can you at least try making posts with content that doesn't resort to attacking others personally? Why do you feel the need to belittle those who disagree with personally?

no, it's not that we disagree, it's that you said something idiotic and I perhaps incorrectly assumed you were an idiot.

I kind of understand where S_H_F is coming from. I'm not a Christian and I'm not an atheist, but I think a lot of atheists do go around acting very arrogantly and could use more humility in their lives. It's not really just about belief in a God, its their general lifestyle and ways they treat other people. I know a lot of atheists tend to overestimate their good nature and confuse their own ambitions with morality. It is often quite easy for people to get frustrated in the heat of the moment and justify treating others badly and as objects. I think what S_H_F is getting at is there is a concept of morality that is independent of humanity and you have to work at getting it. Just relying on yourself can be dangerous because everyone has dangerous self-observed impulses and self-defense mechanisms to protect themselves from moral judgement.

stuff that was idiotic about this post of yours

1.- "A lot of atheists....."
start off with an unfounded generalization, it always helps your case.
2.- "It's their general lifestyle"
compound your first offense by getting into an even broader and less specific example. in other words, try to make a point by being as vague and circumstantial as possible, this can apply to everything.
3.- "I know...."
replace proof, evidence or argument with a simple statement of god-like knowledge, followed by a generalization, those always work.
4.- "there is a concept of morality that is independent of humanity"
this is perhaps the worst offender in the bunch, because it belittles the human capacity for compassion and empathy, you like many others are hypocrites that only do the right thing because you're told you HAVE to, mental and moral children.

good enough?

 

[Mike_D202]

1.- "A lot of atheists....."
start off with an unfounded generalization, it always helps your case.

Umm..practice what you preach (haha...irony).

Calling people with religious beliefs "stupid" or "morons" or "ignorant" or (insert personal attack here) wont help your case either. All you've done was say "SCIENCE DOES NOT LIE! YOUR STUPID! THEORIES ARE THE REAL DEAL, DONT BE IGNORANT! YOUR GOD LETS BAD THINGS HAPPEN!"

 

[SentinelMind]

no, it's not that we disagree, it's that you said something idiotic and I perhaps incorrectly assumed you were an idiot.



stuff that was idiotic about this post of yours

1.- "A lot of atheists....."
start off with an unfounded generalization, it always helps your case.
2.- "It's their general lifestyle"
compound your first offense by getting into an even broader and less specific example. in other words, try to make a point by being as vague and circumstantial as possible, this can apply to everything.
3.- "I know...."
replace proof, evidence or argument with a simple statement of god-like knowledge, followed by a generalization, those always work.
4.- "there is a concept of morality that is independent of humanity"
this is perhaps the worst offender in the bunch, because it belittles the human capacity for compassion and empathy, you like many others are hypocrites that only do the right thing because you're told you HAVE to, mental and moral children.

good enough?

First, off, yes I have used generalizations, for you to claim you have never used a generalization ever is hypocritical. Are you confident you haven't used one in this thread? Furthermore, I said I know a lot of...not that most or all are.... If you wanted me to be more specific with points, you could have asked, but of course you have an egotistical need to bash and ridicule those who disagree to score points on a SHH.

Just because I believe in a concept of morality independent of humanity does not mean that I think humans cannot logically comprehend it. Just because I an apple exists outside of my existence does not mean I cannot use or interact with the apple. People share ideas and use ration and reason to comprehend the ideas, the ideas still exist after we all die.

I do think a lot of atheists do overestimate their moral compass, I have met many, read accounts of many,... who are not as humble as they think they are. They have good intentions... I believe many do. I do believe that it takes lot of hard work, self-reflection, and studying to distinguish between one's personal ambitions and moral thing to do in a situation. However, when many atheists reject belief in a higher power, they tend to believe their own mind unchecked can be the source of moral power. They may admit they have a selfish side, but tend to underplay it. As time progresses, they associate their causes and philosophical viewpoints with ego and rationalize their behavior whenever it becomes in conflict with others.

Every person has a selfish side, an ego, a need to improve one's identity and self-worth. However, it takes higher order mental and rational thought to undermine that selfish side. I believe that constant dedication to absorb and comprehend these principles is necessary to live a good life. When you simply allow your own instincts and emotions cloud your judgment and refuse to acknowledge it, that can lead to people with good intentions behaving in arrogant ways.

OF course, I think Christians can behave arrogantly as well as we see in the media, but I think they behave this way for different reasons. I'll start using "think" instead of "know" from now on.

 

[Clark_Kent]

Personally I don't believe that it can ever be objectively proven that there is a God. Anything anyone may experience that may appear to be caused by God may just be caused by some advanced alien life form. Having said that, as I've said in another thread, I don't believe that it can ever be proven that there isn't a God. Neither do I believe that the existence of aliens can be proven or disproven.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Umm..practice what you preach (haha...irony).

Calling people with religious beliefs "stupid" or "morons" or "ignorant" or (insert personal attack here) wont help your case either. All you've done was say "SCIENCE DOES NOT LIE! YOUR STUPID! THEORIES ARE THE REAL DEAL, DONT BE IGNORANT! YOUR GOD LETS BAD THINGS HAPPEN!"

actually I've never written "your stupid" because it's actually "you're" as in YOU Mike_D202 ARE stupid.
and I have written very well thought out and presented statements that have quite obviously been beyond your ( as in "belonging to you") understanding.

 

[Mike_D202]

I before E except after C...gotcha.

BTW you forgot to capitalize the letters beginning with your sentences.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

First, off, yes I have used generalizations, for you to claim you have never used a generalization ever is hypocritical. Are you confident you haven't used one in this thread? Furthermore, I said I know a lot of...not that most or all are.... If you wanted me to be more specific with points, you could have asked, but of course you have an egotistical need to bash and ridicule those who disagree to score points on a SHH.

ermmm, no.
sorry, you implied to know the motivations of a lot of atheists, do you understand that?
how can you even begin to claim that since atheism is not an established religion with a given set of rules, that alone makes your claim even harder to believe and even more arrogant than say someone saying

"I know that christians tend to..." do you understand why?

Just because I believe in a concept of morality independent of humanity does not mean that I think humans cannot logically comprehend it. Just because I an apple exists outside of my existence does not mean I cannot use or interact with the apple. People share ideas and use ration and reason to comprehend the ideas, the ideas still exist after we all die.

morality is a creation OF humanity, because it only applies to humans, you don't see animals running around with fig leaves on their privates do you?
there was a time when nakedness was deemed "immoral" by mainstream society. the rest of your post is gibberish, sorry, don't try to sound complex when you don't fully grasp the idea you're trying to convey, because you risj sounding like you don't know what you're talking about.

I do think a lot of atheists do overestimate their moral compass, I have met many, read accounts of many,... who are not as humble as they think they are. They have good intentions... I believe many do. I do believe that it takes lot of hard work, self-reflection, and studying to distinguish between one's personal ambitions and moral thing to do in a situation. However, when many atheists reject belief in a higher power, they tend to believe their own mind unchecked can be the source of moral power. They may admit they have a selfish side, but tend to underplay it. As time progresses, they associate their causes and philosophical viewpoints with ego and rationalize their behavior whenever it becomes in conflict with others.

LOL, you just described human behavior independent of religious creed.
EVERYONE does that.
it has nothing to do with belief in a higher power, because even those that do "admit they have a selfish side, but tend to underplay it. As time progresses, they associate their causes and philosophical viewpoints with ego and rationalize their behavior whenever it becomes in conflict with others" I mean DUH! do you think that when the christians and catholics forced their religious beliefs upon the indigenous people of the Americas they didn't think they were doing the right thing?
Do you honestly think that a suicide Bomber thinks he is wrong and that this whole Allah thing is stupid?
do you think that every time that fringe groups protest a gay march or funeral with a sign that says "God Hates ****" they do so because they have a hidden streak of atheism in them?

please.

Every person has a selfish side, an ego, a need to improve one's identity and self-worth. However, it takes higher order mental and rational thought to undermine that selfish side. I believe that constant dedication to absorb and comprehend these principles is necessary to live a good life. When you simply allow your own instincts and emotions cloud your judgment and refuse to acknowledge it, that can lead to people with good intentions behaving in arrogant ways.

the concept of empathy is older than the Christian religion and has nothing to do with a higher power and everything to do with humanity.
and was born out of rational thought.

so

nope, sorry.

OF course, I think Christians can behave arrogantly as well as we see in the media, but I think they behave this way for different reasons. I'll start using "think" instead of "know" from now on.

and you'd do well to do so.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

I before E except after C...gotcha.

BTW you forgot to capitalize the letters beginning with your sentences.

and yet, I spell better than you.
plus English is my second language.

good try though, good try!

 

[Superhobo]

Day-ummm!