World Raimi vs Webb Comparison Thread

[LEVITIKUZ]

You see, there's a simple reason why Peter ain't like the comics in TASM series.

Webb and the writers never read the comics.

 

[DX]

You see, there's a simple reason why Peter ain't like the comics in TASM series.

Webb and the writers wanted to turn Peter into Edward Cullen

Fixed.

 

[GoodYoung]

I didn't mention it because I don't think "Are you in or are you out" is a terrible line, and I certainly don't think for a second that the acting of Tobey and Dunst is awful. Far from it.

So why would I mention something I don't believe is true?



Spider-Man 3 MJ yes she's definitely than her better by a long way. I'd never defend SM-3 MJ. But Spider-Man 1 and 2 no. MJ is a flawed character, like the comics. That adds spice and drama to her relationship with Peter. It makes her a more real three dimensional interesting character for me. I like Emma Stone's Gwen fine. She's the only consistently decent thing in those movies. But the character is too flawless. She's Miss Perfect. That to me makes her less interesting and real than MJ. Even comic book Gwen wasn't that sweet and syrupy and flawless. She was fiery gal, could be quick tempered, make rash judgements, lay blame against people who didn't deserve it etc. But she was still a good girl at heart, she just had her faults and that made her an interesting character who's relationship with Peter was interesting to read because of these flaws and dramatics. The only flaw of Gwen in TASM movies is her acting like an idiot and going into the Electro battle which ultimately got her killed.

The only worthwhile thing about the Peter and Gwen relationship in the movies is the chemistry between them. That's it. The relationship itself is too sweet and syrupy, bad enough to rot your teeth.

Well, ok. It's your opinion, I respect that. But I strongly disagree.

I was overjoyed to see the negative response, disappointing box office, and bad critic rating TASM 2 got. It gives me hope that people are not willing to swallow this garbage. We deserve better Spider-Man movies than this trash.

To be honest. It deserves that.

You see, there's a simple reason why Peter ain't like the comics in TASM series.

Webb and the writers never read the comics.

I really don't think Webb is the problem.

 

[Erzengel]

IMDB poll

http://www.imdb.com/poll/M43-BGuMniY/results?answer=2&ref_=po_rv

Spider-Man 2 - 632 votes
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 - 556 votes
Spider-Man - 455 votes
The Amazing Spider-Man - 296 votes
Spider-Man 3 - 156 votes

Total votes 2,095

Joblo poll

http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/53609#!bP6PSz

Spider-Man 2 - 1,235 votes
Spider-Man - 606 votes
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 - 324 votes
The Amazing Spider-Man - 260 votes
Spider-Man 3 - 174 votes
Still waiting for them to make a good one - 97 votes
Spider-Man (1977) - 19 votes

Total votes - 2,715 votes

 

[LizardMan07]

Aren't those polls pro TASM2?

I'm tripping out here, didn't you say before online polls don't really count?

 

[Erzengel]

You shouldn't be ingesting mushrooms then.

I said there are other polls that have TASM2 lower.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

TASM 2 should be at the bottom of all the polls.

 

[LizardMan07]

You shouldn't be ingesting mushrooms then.

I said there are other polls that have TASM2 lower.

Man, come on, I was told they were organic....

Ohh, feel dumb.

TASM2 should be on the top of those lists!

 

[OriginalMiles]

What if I told you... some people genuinely believe TASM2 is a good movie. (which it is)

 

[Erzengel]

Man, come on, I was told they were organic....

Ohh, feel dumb.

TASM2 should be on the top of those lists!

If it's not too personal, can I ask how old you are?

 

[OriginalMiles]

Now, of course it isn't as old as the Raimi movies, so that affects it, but let's look at the numbers.

RT: 53% postive.
IMDB: 7.1/10
Metacritic: 53/100
RT Audience score: 69%

Now, I know you guys always say "those don't matter", but they do. It shows that more people are positive about the movie than negative... a lot of polls have it higher than SM3, so it can't be that bad... heck, the poll on this site has TASM2 at the top:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=481331

You know what I think? The (i hate using this term) haters are way more vocal about it than others. The people who like this movie simply don't speak up.

Anyway, on topic:

It's not as good as the other CBMs this year, but it's not the awful, world-ending trainwreck that people make it out to be.

 

[Erzengel]

That poll is of 52 people that closed way too early and it wasn't even public.

And I have no trouble saying it's no awful but the opposite is also true, it's not the best CBM or even Spider-Man movie ever.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Now, of course it isn't as old as the Raimi movies, so that affects it, but let's look at the numbers.

RT: 53% postive.
IMDB: 7.1/10
Metacritic: 53/100
RT Audience score: 69%

Now, I know you guys always say "those don't matter", but they do. It shows that more people are positive about the movie than negative... a lot of polls have it higher than SM3, so it can't be that bad... heck, the poll on this site has TASM2 at the top:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=481331

Even during the height of my senioritis, I couldn't argue 53% positive was a good score. Decent? maybe. Passing? Sure. Meh is the word I think best fits.

You know what I think? The (i hate using this term) haters are way more vocal about it than others. The people who like this movie simply don't speak up.

I think it making less than it's predecessor, which was sandwiched between The Avengers and TDKR, is a better indicator of how the "silent majority" felt.

 

[SpideyK]

TASM 2 should be at the bottom of all the polls.

No. Spider-Man 3 should be at the bottom of all polls.

 

[The Joker]

Now, of course it isn't as old as the Raimi movies, so that affects it, but let's look at the numbers.

RT: 53% postive.
IMDB: 7.1/10
Metacritic: 53/100
RT Audience score: 69%

Now, I know you guys always say "those don't matter", but they do. It shows that more people are positive about the movie than negative... a lot of polls have it higher than SM3, so it can't be that bad.

You're judging it's response based on it being out not even 6 months. Those numbers will fall further. The RT score for instance has been on a decline since it's release. The IMDb score has dropped over the last few months, too. You can bookmark this post right now and make a bet with me that those numbers there will be even lower in a year's time. Heck they'll be lower in 6 months time.

I mean do you think the likes of Ghost Rider, Green Lantern, Wolverine Origins etc had the numbers they have now when they were only 4 months old?

heck, the poll on this site has TASM2 at the top:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=481331

A poll with 52 votes on a forum made up of thousands of members. You don't seriously think that makes up any kind of consensus do you?

You know what I think? The (i hate using this term) haters are way more vocal about it than others. The people who like this movie simply don't speak up.

I'll tell you what I think is closer to the truth. The movie has people who like it, but they know the bulk of the criticisms always thrown against it are valid, so they don't speak up. They accept it as a flawed mess but enjoy it for what it is.

What if I told you... some people genuinely believe TASM2 is a good movie. (which it is)

 

[Doc Ock]

No. Spider-Man 3 should be at the bottom of all polls.

Nah, Spider-Man 3 is a great movie with some serious issues making it an ok movie. TASM2 is a ok movie with serious issues IMO.

 

[SpideyK]

Nah, Spider-Man 3 is a great movie with some serious issues making it an ok movie. TASM2 is a ok movie with serious issues IMO.

I do admit SM3 and ASM2 are somewhat simliar, in ways. Both had potential for greatness.

I still think ASM2 hits higher highs than SM3

 

[LizardMan07]

What has/had more potential to succeed? Sinister Six or the unmade SM4?

Which movie was bettter? TASM or SM3?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

You see, there's a simple reason why Peter ain't like the comics in TASM series.

Webb and the writers never read the comics.

Maybe they read the comics where Peter doesn't dress and look like Steve Urkel?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Fixed.

A Twilight comparison?

Besides the hair, what does Garfield have in common with Edward Cullen?

 

[LizardMan07]

A Twilight comparison?

Besides the hair, what does Garfield have in common with Edward Cullen?

In before "stalking"

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Raimi's are better in every way. His flaws are minor compared to the huge horrible ones that are all over the TASM movies. That's why none of Raimi's movies did as bad as Amazing Spider-Man 2.

 

[Oscorp]

Raimi's are better in every way. His flaws are minor compared to the huge horrible ones that are all over the TASM movies. That's why none of Raimi's movies did as bad as Amazing Spider-Man 2.

Peter and MJ's relationship is one major flaw to me. MJ's character as a whole is a major flaw.

Another major flaw for me is Spider-Man himself.

I have to say though that Webb's films have more flaws.

 

[spiderral]

My views on the Raimi and Webb films, first discussing the SM and TASM series separately and then together. Quite a really long post but here you go:

RAIMI

Spider-Man
My favourite out of the Raimi trilogy; they couldn't have done the origin any better, I loved seeing Peter's transformation into Spider-Man and Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin is the best villain out of the whole trilogy.
Would I happily watch this again? Yes!
7.5/10

Spider-Man 2
Overrated. I don't see why people consider this to be the best Spider-Man film so far; the only good things about it are the action sequences, which make up for the film's overall dull feel compared to the energy and air of excitement that its predecessor had, along with James Franco's performance as Harry Osborn being another positive. It doesn't help that performances by Kirsten Dunst and Tobey Maguire were very, very, very average (and noticeably bad in some scenes) and lacked the enthusiasm they had from SM1. Doc Ock was an okay villain but is still, IMO, overrated and does not compete with the Green Goblin. CGI seemed a lot better in SM1. Mary Jane should have known that Peter was Spider-Man, after their kiss at the end of SM and the expression of realisation she had and she stupidly pretends like she doesn’t know or doesn’t care.
Would I happily watch this again? Nope, I’d give it a miss; it’s hard to say it’s a Spidey film that I actually enjoy, especially due to the fact that the “Spider-Man no more” story drags on and gets boring imo but this is a solid Spidey film nevertheless.
6.7/10

Spider-Man 3
I remember being so hyped up for this, especially with the introduction of the symbiote and Venom but after watching it from start to finish, I'm always left with a feeling that there wasn't enough; they could have done so much more with this film. Still, I enjoy Spider-Man 3 more than Spider-Man 2 but, as I said, I expected more, especially with the symbiote and Venom. Sandman had an okay conclusion for the film and Harry's story arc was good enough for me.
Would I watch this again? Maybe, it depends…
6.72/10

WEBB

The Amazing Spider-Man
The major issue I have with this film is that it does not feel like a Spider-Man film; it feels more like someone who just takes up the mantle of Spider-Man and that's it. The Lizard could have been handled better and I really would have liked to have seen Connors' wife and kids included in the film. Another issue I have is that Peter becomes Spider-Man (even going to the extent of actually making the full Spidey suit) solely for finding Uncle Ben's killer and getting his revenge; that is just not Spider-Man to me. I did enjoy this new cast and liked Garfield more as Peter than Spider-Man and the chemistry from Garfield and Stone is, without a doubt, the best aspect of the film and it is simply because of these elements that I like to watch the film for the nth time.
Would I watch this again? Yes.
6.9/10

The Amazing Spider-Man 2
Now, this one definitely redeemed the issues I had with TASM1 and feels so much more like a Spidey film. They nailed Spider-Man. I liked the introduction of Felicia, Smythe and Ravencroft, showing that there is more out there in the Spidey universe. Peter & Gwen is, again, one of the best parts about this film but I think they should have focused a little more on the two together. The parents story arc should have just been resolved in TASM1, taking too much time up in TASM2 and still being left unresolved. Peter going on about missing his parents seems a little too-off character too me, never really giving the impression that he appreciates Aunt May (apart from the “You’re my boy” scene) and Uncle Ben (who is only ever brought up my Aunt May in the first place).
Electro should have had more to do and he only reached his full, badass potential at the end of the film before being quickly defeated. I enjoyed DeHaan’s performance as Harry and seeing his descent and transformation into the Goblin but I wanted some more from him. His Goblin cackle was good and liked his motivation but he could have looked and felt more like the Green Goblin. Seeing comic-booky, over the top Rhino at the end was a nice way to finish the film and I’ve always wanted cameo appearances from smaller villains such as the Rhino or Shocker in a Spidey film for a short brawl. Sony should have just kept Rhino and Goblin as surprises and solely marketing Electro as the main villain.
The plot would probably have been a lot more coherent and solved pacing issues if they abandoned the parents plot line and just focused on one villain for the film (Electro) and setting up the Goblin (Harry or Norman) for TASM3 and killing Gwen off then.
Peter isn’t given much to do in the film other than being Spider-Man and being with Gwen, it would have been nice to have seen him do more.
Overall, this film got more right than wrong but I wouldn’t hold it as the strongest, most solid Spidey film out there, especially after my rating decreased after the second viewing. Maybe my expectations were just really, really low going into the in theatre and watching the film for the first time.
So, would I still watch this again? Yep, despite its flaws.
7.2/10

RAIMI vs WEBB

CAST
Andrew Garfield is excellent as both Peter Parker and Spider-Man and you can feel the enthusiasm, passion and respect that the actor has for this character via his performance on screen and even in interviews. Tobey Maguire was very dull and was only really good at playing a quiet, nerdy teenager/man, giving a very average/below average performance overall and the same can be said for Kirsten Dunst; their acting was probably at their best in the first Raimi film, even if they had very poor chemistry on-screen. There’s no denying how much more refreshing it was to see Andrew and Emma’s chemistry in TASM1, unlike anything we’ve seen in a comic-book/superhero movie before.
The strongest performances in the Raimi trilogy were definitely from the Bugle cast, Rosemary Harris, Willem Dafoe and James Franco. Rosemary Harris definitely looks and feels more like Aunt May to me than Sally Fields but Fields does a good job in the role nevertheless.
Webb’s cast win over Raimi’s but Raimi’s would definitely have been on par if it had not been for Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst.

PETER PARKER/SPIDER-MAN
I definitely prefer Andrew&#8217;s Peter/Spider-Man to Tobey&#8217;s. Tobey Maguire&#8217;s was much too geeky and quiet (especially as Spider-Man) for me. Andrew&#8217;s Peter feels more relatable, comfortable in his own skin, gives off that athletic and smart vibe that Peter/Spider-Man should have and seems more real; this character could easily exist in the real world (<< not saying that Tobey&#8217;s doesn&#8217;t either though). However, if we were solely talking Andrew in TASM2 and Tobey in SM1, then Andrew would just about win.
I know that it helps Peter&#8217;s secret identity to be more of a secret and means that no-one would ever guess but I was never convinced, in mainly SM2 or SM3, that Tobey Maguire&#8217;s Peter Parker was actually Spider-Man, especially with his Spider-Man being a mute most of the time, not utilising his webs to their full potential in fights and nor his intelligence (which we never properly see in practice and are just told about Peter&#8217;s intelligence instead); Tobey&#8217;s Spider-Man mainly engaged in battles with fists which wasn&#8217;t enough for me.
The 90&#8217;s TAS Spider-Man was the first time I&#8217;d ever been exposed to Spider-Man (I never read the comics growing up as a kid) and is my favourite example of Peter Parker and Spider-Man feeling like one (to explain: that it really is Peter underneath the mask) but still having separate identities. Peter&#8217;s characteristics and struggles in life carry on into his being as Spider-Man (e.g. his intelligence, physical characteristics and the relationships he has with characters both as Spider-Man and Peter) and vice versa; it&#8217;s a tough cookie to really explain (and I hope at least someone on these boards gets me) but it feels as if Andrew&#8217;s Peter really embraces the role of Spider-Man, matching the Peter/Spider-Man from TAS and the Spider-Man I know from other media and video games. You can argue that Raimi&#8217;s trilogy did very blatantly have Peter struggling between being Peter AND Spider-Man, especially in Spider-Man 2, but it never felt as if that was Tobey&#8217;s Peter donning the suit and mask unless we actually saw Spider-Man without his mask.

WRITING
We&#8217;re still waiting for TASM3 and to have a finished &#8220;The Amazing Spider-Man&#8221; film trilogy but comparing the films we have now, Raimi has 2/3 (SM1 & SM2) solid films, in terms of writing and pacing, while Webb only really has 1/2 (TASM1). Hopefully TASM3 can redeem the messy plot TASM2 had and give us a more coherent story but in the meantime, Raimi&#8217;s films win this one.

VILLAINS
Related to writing, the most developed and fleshed out villain out of the 5 films has to be Raimi&#8217;s Green Goblin who was given an excellent portrayal by Willem Dafoe. The Lizard&#8217;s motivations were good in TASM but I feel that they could have done more with him, especially if they had included the whole Connors&#8217; family. Doc Ock was okay, on par with Sandman imo, but doesn&#8217;t impress me as much the Green Goblin.
The TASM series has yet to give us something as good as Raimi&#8217;s Green Goblin and I feel as if villains are the weakest point of Webb&#8217;s films so far.

LOVE INTERESTS
MJ was poorly written in Raimi&#8217;s trilogy and it&#8217;s hard to work out what exactly Peter sees in MJ (other than being a girl he&#8217;s just had a crush on for years) and what MJ sees in Peter (other than always being there for her).
Gwen has been very well written in the TASM films, probably more so than Peter, and is a lot more likeable than Raimi&#8217;s MJ so Webb, you win this one.

REPLAY VALUE
Or, in other words, "would I watch this film over and over again?" (not repeatedly in the same day, you know what I mean). Raimi&#8217;s first Spider-Man is probably the only one out of the trilogy that I will never get tired of. I&#8217;d only really watch the whole trilogy if I&#8217;m having a Spidey film marathon or for nostalgia. It&#8217;s Webb&#8217;s strong cast that draw me to wanting to watch the TASM films again. Webb and Raimi draw on this one.

Conclusion & Opinions
In my book, Spider-Man (2002) is the only Raimi film that I can only really praise. Spider-Man 2 is so overrated and has a very cheesy feel to it overall. Spider-Man 3 went a little darker due to elements such as the symbiote and Peter finding out about Uncle Ben&#8217;s actual killer but the movie still stayed true to the spirit that the previous Raimi films had.
Webb&#8217;s two Spider-Man films are very different to each other and I don&#8217;t think the dark tone to TASM1 was the right move to make; The Amazing Spider-Man 2 definitely got the right tone but the inconsistent tone and feel across the TASM films already shows that the filmmakers are unsure of what they really want to do when they&#8217;re approaching these movies. This is really evident from TASM2 with the different sub-plots going on and so many things cut and altered from the script and so many different versions of scenes; it just looks as if they wanted to film as many different things as possible and try to piece something of a Spider-Man film together in the editing room.
It&#8217;s tough following in the footsteps of a Spider-Man trilogy that so many people know and love and even more tough for Webb and co. now that the MCU has become so popular, leaving Spider-Man to be pushed aside and almost forgotten, still under the realms of Sony. Maybe Spider-Man would have been better off with the MCU (the TASM reboot series starting in the hands of Marvel?) but I don&#8217;t want the Spider-Man series to have become like the Iron Man and Thor film series and deteriorate in quality (my own opinion; I know ratings disagree). I just hope Sony stops following the popular trends set by other successful films/franchises (the dark and grounded tone set by the TDK trilogy and the world-building in the MCU) and does something different; really just breaking away from making the same Spidey films over and over again and exploring new ground. I don&#8217;t mind Sony wanting to do an expanded Spider-Man cinematic universe but I&#8217;d rather they hint at an expanded universe in a decent Spider-Man film and then do these spin-off films with other Spider-Man characters if fans would really like to see it done. Raimi&#8217;s trilogy didn&#8217;t really need to worry about all this but we did essentially see all 3 films follow the same Spidey film formula and interference from Avi Arad and Sony didn&#8217;t really help SM3 nor TASM2. Sony really just needs to get their act together and let the director tell the story they want to tell.
I don&#8217;t know much about directing and won&#8217;t pretend that I will but Raimi had, what I call anyway, a cheesy approach to making his Spider-Man films whereas Webb doesn&#8217;t but cheesy things just happen in his Spider-Man films. Either way, I haven&#8217;t doubted either director in their work and look forward to what Webb will do with TASM3, that&#8217;s if they&#8217;re given a solid script to work with.

Anyway, these were my thoughts on the whole Raimi vs Webb thing, feel free to agree or disagree on anything.

 

[LizardMan07]

Raimi's are better in every way. His flaws are minor compared to the huge horrible ones that are all over the TASM movies.

Statement followed by;

That's why none of Raimi's movies did as bad as Amazing Spider-Man 2.

Justification.

You cannot justify the workings of a movie by pointing to how the film did. That's lazy. You can basically say "TASM2 did X worse than Y, that's obvious because it did worse than SM2" in any situation, it dissuades objective thought, as its something you can leap to to justify any statement.

For example;

Can I say "TF4 had more emotional resonance than 12 years a slave, because TF4 made no money"

Basically, what I'm saying is a film's performance does not reflect whether certain aspects of the film were worse or not, its kind of falling into the disengenious/fallicious ballpark to go down that road.

Its a discussion killer, in the least.

We all know the film did poorly, the question is why. The topics aren't neccessarily mutually related, we can't bridge them together and gain a satisfactory answer.

If we were to say, blanketely and objectively, one movie had more flaws than another, we'd have to tease through both and find the as close to objective flaws in the film, and see which one had more.

Obviously, that ain't going to happen, hence why blanket statements don't work.

Unless you're just out there to make generalised statements with rather disconnected justifications, then what you're saying is a-ok.

Let's talk, not ramble.