Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Zaphod]

I had envisioned that the Batman didn't really seen Nigma as much of a threat-- although he would know his name (and address, 'cuz he's the Goddamn Batman) from his investigations into the mobs-- until the warring crime familues are crippled and Nigma picks up a handful of men to set out on his own. You've got good ideas on this, though.

I personally did not want the Riddler to become obsessed with the Batman until the Dark Knight (possibly with the help of Robin) solved some of his clues aimed at the GCPD in connection with his crimes. It's then that he realizes that the Batman isn't just a shadowy demonic figure out to terrorize the wicked. He's not inhuman at all, but a man with a formidable mind who can give the Riddler the challenge he needs. Riddler is very similar to the Joker in this way, as they both deliberately try to get the Batman's attention and keep the game going, except the Riddler sees it like a game of chess (but with word problems, however that would work) and the Joker sees it like two performance artists competing on the same stage.

In terms of physicality and brute-strength and skill, Nygma will not be deemed a threat by Batman. However, I dont envision Batman meeting Riddler in the flesh that often during the movie anyway. Instead of a typical showdown between hero and villain (like what we will be going for in terms of Two-Face), Riddler will plot his crimes from afar with Batman chasing leads in order to solve the riddles left in the wake. The Riddler is despicable in the sense that he is far to cowardly to directly involve himself with any crime that would immediately draw the Batman out, instead trusting in his goons to carry out his work at his order and then sending the authorities chasing down blind-alleys at every turn. The same with the Batman, Nygma doesn't want an open-confrontation, initially not truly realising Batman is anything more than a winged-vigilante and attempting the same tricks on him as he does the GCPD. This is not to say Riddler wouldn't be present at one of his own crime-spree's, I already layed out my idea of how he would act around his men in the middle of a heist, robbery etc, but more than often than not Riddler always has a plan to escape if things go awry, since much like Batman, he can quickly adapt himself to any given situation should something unexpected present itself. Eventually, Riddler would meet Batman face to face, and when he does, it would basically mean an end to his operations. Before this though, I'd want Batman to know next to nothing about the Riddler himself (including his address), and it would be his riddles only that supply Batman with the neccesary information for his eventual tracking down, a severe underestimation on Nygma's part, which would spark the obsession after Batman puts a stop to Riddlers intial criminal foray.

While I don't want the Riddler to be shown as the same kind of tragic figure that Two-Face is, I'd want to feature the root of Nigma's compulsion to leave clues. In the current comic series "Justice," the Batman's files on Riddler tell that Nigma cheated on something in school or lied about something and his father punished him severely for it, instilling in him a compulsion to tell the truth, even in an indirect manner. While the Riddler is mostly calm and composed in his behavior, I want him to end up at Arkham Asylum instead of a regular prison. This is obviously faithful to the comics, but I emphasize this to say that he should be a pathological nutcase, not a typical gangster at all. I would keep the "double- or triple-crossed" thing, though, but I'm ambivalent as to whether that earns him a bad reputation or not, considering he's probably not going to offer to work for anyone else as an underling again.

The Riddler would normally be calm and composed, but not at all times. I would include at least one scenario involving one of Nygma's schemes taking a turn for the worse, and we'd see him lose it completely all for a second, before composing himself once again and effectively counter-acting the hiccup in his plot.

If we were to delve deeper into the obsessive/compulsive side of Nygma's personality, than I wouldn't want to show flashbacks, simply because I feel that with all the Two-Face action going on aswell, it would probaly divert the audience to much away from that aspect of the movie. It would be acceptable to have Batman relay the details of Nygma's condition whilst in the Batcave, to Alfred or someone when he has Riddler's psychological profile.

Okay, for a second there I thought you wanted Two-Face to abandon the idea of justice, but you're just talking about tactics. Yes, I do want him to act as a vigilante in some ways, but also a straight-up criminal. I'd like him to come off like a midway point between the Batman and the Joker in terms of ideology-- split between order and chaos, justice and terror-- with the deciding factor being his belief in fate as the only reliable guide in life. Also, he should stick with the gimmick of hitting establishments with words like "two," "gemini," "twin," etc. and keep his obession with the very concept of duality intact. Two-Face's flight patterns are much more predictable than the Joker's, but the coin makes it a toss-up (heh heh) whether he'll actually hit any of these places, and in what order. I figure he'll be hitting Maroni's fronts in addition to all the gimmick-related targets for robberies.

I think maybe the big face-off (I'm not even trying, it just keeps happening!) between the Batman and Two-Face towards the end could be during a trial-- the trial of Sal Maroni. Two-Face and his goons will break into Blackgate prison and kidnap Maroni so Two-Face can prosecute him personally, maybe at a building that used to be a courthouse but is now condemned or something. The Batman will track him down and intervene, and that's where the big final fight will occur.

*text*

Nice ideas Herr

I imagined that Two-Face would take captive Sal Maroni, dragging him to the top of the Gotham District Courthouse (the one where he worked as D.A, not an abandoned one). At the very heights of the Courthouse would outlook the statue of 'Lady Justice', and into the 'Scales of Justice' which the good lady holds, Two Face would place Maroni in one, with Two Face occupying the other scale.

I like your ideas for how Two-Face talks, the use of terminology works wonderfully in highlighting Dents insanity.

While all that is happening, Robin disobeyed orders to stay home that night and he takes out all the armed thugs guarding the courthouse. The Batman walks out of the courthouse dragging both Maroni's and Two-Face's unconscious bodies and sees Robin standing amid several unconscious or tied-up thugs, and the police are just arriving.

Very nice.

Ah, I did forget him. How strange, because I would like to see the Scarecrow. Good catch.

By the way, what do you think of what I said before about Catwoman, and last night about Robin?

Let me recap on them and I'll get back to you.

 

[Zaphod]

On Robin:

Many of those who post in the 'Batman' forum here on the Hype have been throwing about suggestions about the Robin character, namely his costume and how it should be re-designed to fit in with Nolans 'realism'. Unsuprisingly this pretty much extends to people b1thcing over how 'we should just jump straight to Nightwing', and most annoyingly, how the character couldn't possibly work because of his mask!?

As if this one detail decides the characters future in a movie or not. It's ludicrous, but whats more annoying than that is that now, instead of working out ideas for fleshing out a logistic reasoning to give the alreadt existing Robin-costume merit in a movie, like we should be doing, it boils down to people complaining he should be wearing all black, or some othr half assed attempt at making him a grim carbon copy of Batman himself.

Well, Robin can, and should look just as he does in the comics. The only changes to the costume will be that the colour scheme should be somewhat darker-toned, which appears to be the general consensus in this thread anyhow. The mask on the other hand seems to be the crux of many posters lifes, as they see fit to pick at it as the reason for the character seemingly being unable to function. Bull****. Here's how I'd explain it:

When Bruce is training Dick in the Cave, we'll hear Bruce explain to Dick in no uncertain terms that Dick must have supreme and unsurpassed speed if he is to survive as ongoing crime-fighter. Bruce says to Dick that more than himself, he'll have to rely on his speed in order to defeat crime since he wont be as well endowed with the advantage of intimidation as the Batman persona is. Not only that, and even more importantly, Batman aims to train Dick in all the forms of combat in which he is less versed. Now, make no mistake, I wouldn't make Batman full of faults just because he now has a sidekick, but it would be made clear that Batman wants Dick to have uncanny speed, grace and fluidity of attacks, to balance out with Batman strength and harder-hitting tactical approach.

So Bruce would have Dick fight him, in the Cave, in a large matted mini-dojo like area. Bruce would antagonise Dick, to make Dick fight faster and more aggressive. In the beggining, Dick is over zealous, and he soon discovers he's jsut running in like an animal gets him all too soon thrown to the mat with minimal fuss. Remember when Ducard quickly overcame Bruce on the ice in Begins? Only for Bruce to quickly counter-act with a successful takedown after realising his mistake? Well, thats the sort of thing I'd go for with Dick taking on Bruce in this way, although the process would take more time and be drawn out more over the course of the other training so as to show ***** gradual progression. Eventually, Dick will be scarily-fast, he's movement and attacks are unpredictable, perfect and to quick for the eye to fathom. Some of the strikes he lands on Bruce at this point will genuinely force Bruce to really work himself hard in fending of the strikes, and a few would get past his guard and send Bruce a'rockin'.

Now, what's all this got to do with the mask you wonder? Well, after Dick has mastered his training in speed and attacks, Bruce presents him with the eye mask (the rest of the costume Dick would fashion himself, since it raises some nice questions from Batman in order of explaining it's function). Anyway, Bruce hands to Dick the eye mask, and Dick says to Bruce that it is not enough to completely transform him as it does Bruce into Batman, and that it does not conceal his identity enough to keep his civilan persona secret. Bruce says:

"Trust you speed. Trust your skill, your movements, and your instinct to attack the enemy. They will not see you, or recognize you, because for them it will be too late. They will feel the fear of your attacks, but they will not know or see the attacker. The mask is a constant reminder, that speed is your best ally, that to truly transform, you must be a blur of motions to your enemy. An indecipherable phantom. Rely not on the dark as I do, but in your ability to have speed act as your mask." (Or something to that effect)

Thoughts?

 

[Herr Logan]

In terms of physicality and brute-strength and skill, Nygma will not be deemed a threat by Batman. However, I dont envision Batman meeting Riddler in the flesh that often during the movie anyway. Instead of a typical showdown between hero and villain (like what we will be going for in terms of Two-Face), Riddler will plot his crimes from afar with Batman chasing leads in order to solve the riddles left in the wake. The Riddler is despicable in the sense that he is far to cowardly to directly involve himself with any crime that would immediately draw the Batman out, instead trusting in his goons to carry out his work at his order and then sending the authorities chasing down blind-alleys at every turn. The same with the Batman, Nygma doesn't want an open-confrontation, initially not truly realising Batman is anything more than a winged-vigilante and attempting the same tricks on him as he does the GCPD. This is not to say Riddler wouldn't be present at one of his own crime-spree's, I already layed out my idea of how he would act around his men in the middle of a heist, robbery etc, but more than often than not Riddler always has a plan to escape if things go awry, since much like Batman, he can quickly adapt himself to any given situation should something unexpected present itself. Eventually, Riddler would meet Batman face to face, and when he does, it would basically mean an end to his operations. Before this though, I'd want Batman to know next to nothing about the Riddler himself (including his address), and it would be his riddles only that supply Batman with the neccesary information for his eventual tracking down, a severe underestimation on Nygma's part, which would spark the obsession after Batman puts a stop to Riddlers intial criminal foray.


The Riddler would normally be calm and composed, but not at all times. I would include at least one scenario involving one of Nygma's schemes taking a turn for the worse, and we'd see him lose it completely all for a second, before composing himself once again and effectively counter-acting the hiccup in his plot.

If we were to delve deeper into the obsessive/compulsive side of Nygma's personality, than I wouldn't want to show flashbacks, simply because I feel that with all the Two-Face action going on aswell, it would probaly divert the audience to much away from that aspect of the movie. It would be acceptable to have Batman relay the details of Nygma's condition whilst in the Batcave, to Alfred or someone when he has Riddler's psychological profile.

That all sounds real good.

I agree on the thing about no flashbacks. Like I said, I don't need the Riddler to be an overly tragic figure, I would just like it shown that he's worthy of being one of Batman's crazy villains and not just a slightly eccentric bad guy.
Maybe at the end of the movie, the Riddler can be shown talking to a psychiatrist at Arkham Asylum in therapy, answering the question of why he thinks he feels the need to leave Riddles at the scenes of crimes or otherwise drawing attention to those crimes. The Riddler will say the thing about how his father instilled in him a fear of being dishonest and thus a compunction to be honest, even if the truth being told is obscured somehow. The doctor will note that Nygma seems happy and asks why. Nygma will basically say something about how he's finally found an equal worthy of playing "the game" with him. Now he has something to strive for. Fade out on a villainous grin and a twinkle in Edward's eye.

Nice ideas Herr

I imagined that Two-Face would take captive Sal Maroni, dragging him to the top of the Gotham District Courthouse (the one where he worked as D.A, not an abandoned one). At the very heights of the Courthouse would outlook the statue of 'Lady Justice', and into the 'Scales of Justice' which the good lady holds, Two Face would place Maroni in one, with Two Face occupying the other scale.

I like your ideas for how Two-Face talks, the use of terminology works wonderfully in highlighting Dents insanity.



Very nice.

Thanks.

The reason I suggested an abandoned building is because I figured there would be too much interference from police if it was a public courthouse. That can be worked around, though. It could well be a hostage situation and the Batman could ask Gordon (who could possibly be a Commissioner in this movie, if many more cops and high-ranking corrupt officers are indicted in the second film) to hold position and give him a chance to handle it.

I'd still have Robin take down several of Two-Face's thugs while the Batman has a beltless showdown with the man himself. Gordon could witness Robin kicking ass and realize that the rumors of the Batman gaining an ally were probably true and that maybe he can live with the situation for the moment, instead of hunting the Batman down for endangering a person who may or may not be a minor.

 

[Herr Logan]

On Robin:

Many of those who post in the 'Batman' forum here on the Hype have been throwing about suggestions about the Robin character, namely his costume and how it should be re-designed to fit in with Nolans 'realism'. Unsuprisingly this pretty much extends to people b1thcing over how 'we should just jump straight to Nightwing', and most annoyingly, how the character couldn't possibly work because of his mask!?

As if this one detail decides the characters future in a movie or not. It's ludicrous, but whats more annoying than that is that now, instead of working out ideas for fleshing out a logistic reasoning to give the alreadt existing Robin-costume merit in a movie, like we should be doing, it boils down to people complaining he should be wearing all black, or some othr half assed attempt at making him a grim carbon copy of Batman himself.

Well, Robin can, and should look just as he does in the comics. The only changes to the costume will be that the colour scheme should be somewhat darker-toned, which appears to be the general consensus in this thread anyhow. The mask on the other hand seems to be the crux of many posters lifes, as they see fit to pick at it as the reason for the character seemingly being unable to function. Bull****. Here's how I'd explain it:

When Bruce is training Dick in the Cave, we'll hear Bruce explain to Dick in no uncertain terms that Dick must have supreme and unsurpassed speed if he is to survive as ongoing crime-fighter. Bruce says to Dick that more than himself, he'll have to rely on his speed in order to defeat crime since he wont be as well endowed with the advantage of intimidation as the Batman persona is. Not only that, and even more importantly, Batman aims to train Dick in all the forms of combat in which he is less versed. Now, make no mistake, I wouldn't make Batman full of faults just because he now has a sidekick, but it would be made clear that Batman wants Dick to have uncanny speed, grace and fluidity of attacks, to balance out with Batman strength and harder-hitting tactical approach.

So Bruce would have Dick fight him, in the Cave, in a large matted mini-dojo like area. Bruce would antagonise Dick, to make Dick fight faster and more aggressive. In the beggining, Dick is over zealous, and he soon discovers he's jsut running in like an animal gets him all too soon thrown to the mat with minimal fuss. Remember when Ducard quickly overcame Bruce on the ice in Begins? Only for Bruce to quickly counter-act with a successful takedown after realising his mistake? Well, thats the sort of thing I'd go for with Dick taking on Bruce in this way, although the process would take more time and be drawn out more over the course of the other training so as to show ***** gradual progression. Eventually, Dick will be scarily-fast, he's movement and attacks are unpredictable, perfect and to quick for the eye to fathom. Some of the strikes he lands on Bruce at this point will genuinely force Bruce to really work himself hard in fending of the strikes, and a few would get past his guard and send Bruce a'rockin'.

Now, what's all this got to do with the mask you wonder? Well, after Dick has mastered his training in speed and attacks, Bruce presents him with the eye mask (the rest of the costume Dick would fashion himself, since it raises some nice questions from Batman in order of explaining it's function). Anyway, Bruce hands to Dick the eye mask, and Dick says to Bruce that it is not enough to completely transform him as it does Bruce into Batman, and that it does not conceal his identity enough to keep his civilan persona secret. Bruce says:

"Trust you speed. Trust your skill, your movements, and your instinct to attack the enemy. They will not see you, or recognize you, because for them it will be too late. They will feel the fear of your attacks, but they will not know or see the attacker. The mask is a constant reminder, that speed is your best ally, that to truly transform, you must be a blur of motions to your enemy. An indecipherable phantom. Rely not on the dark as I do, but in your ability to have speed act as your mask." (Or something to that effect)

Thoughts?

Very good ideas.

I'm not crazy about the idea that Robin is expected to always be moving, however. I'm thinking maybe the "realism" really should be a little bit lax on the issue of facial recognition technology, or even just a person recognizing him.
He should be very dynamic when out in costume and moving a lot, but I think we should be treated to some scenes where he stands still enough to look bad-ass and interrogate thugs.

I'd have the mask be more like goggles, like another poster here mentioned before (I think it was Kame-Sennin), obviously equipped with the same night vision and thermal/IR vision capabilities and the Batman's mask lenses. Even if it was just a flimsy domino mask, it would still have lenses with those kinds of capabilities and that hide his eyes.

I really like the idea of Bruce actually learning a few things from Dick as well as vice versa while training and working together.
I'd definitely, in addition to seeing them spar in the cave, want Bruce and Dick to do some fencing up in the mansion, just like in the early scenes of the first movie where Alfred fenced with Bruce (all of this was inspired by that scene in the animated series with young Dick and Bruce fencing). Perhaps that could even be a scene where Bruce tries to dissuade Dick from pursuing a vigilante career, just like Alfred was trying to do with Bruce in the first movie in that same room.

Again, great ideas.

 

[Zaphod]

I'm not crazy about the idea that Robin is expected to always be moving, however. I'm thinking maybe the "realism" really should be a little bit lax on the issue of facial recognition technology, or even just a person recognizing him.
He should be very dynamic when out in costume and moving a lot, but I think we should be treated to some scenes where he stands still enough to look bad-ass and interrogate thugs.

Yes, I wouldn't want Robin moving all the time, but I would certainly make it the character's strong-point when he takes on a gang of thugs, that he is fluid, faster and swifter than the Batman in combat. Alot of the time we'd see him as a blur of red-and-yellow, however we would also see him close-up. It's just that I like the idea of developing on a reasoning for why Robin's costume is like it is, and whether or not the rules of it's functioning be strictly upheld in the same way throughout a movie as it is first explained by Bruce to Dick on the matter of the mask, and then Dick to Bruce about the costume, it makes to characterise Robin as taking on his own tactical approach to ''war on crime''.

Robin would also get the Red-Bird bike. This doesn't need to be said.

 

[Herr Logan]

Yes, I wouldn't want Robin moving all the time, but I would certainly make it the character's strong-point when he takes on a gang of thugs, that he is fluid, faster and swifter than the Batman in combat. Alot of the time we'd see him as a blur of red-and-yellow, however we would also see him close-up. It's just that I like the idea of developing on a reasoning for why Robin's costume is like it is, and whether or not the rules of it's functioning be strictly upheld in the same way throughout a movie as it is first explained by Bruce to Dick on the matter of the mask, and then Dick to Bruce about the costume, it makes to characterise Robin as taking on his own tactical approach to ''war on crime''.

Robin would also get the Red-Bird bike. This doesn't need to be said.

No, it does not need to be said.

"A blur of red and yellow"? Remember that the B:TAS costume, based on Tim Drake's, has the cape black on the outside and yellow on the inside. I would definitely go this route. The inside would be more of a dark gold, too.

 

[Zaphod]

Herr, I'd like to address the matter concerning Batman's showtime in the first movie, and the issue raised over when we should see him, as sooner rather than later:

I previously mentioned three-acts, in which Batman would show up in the third. Zev raised the point about this not being the correct structure, and I concede the point. However, this seemed to put the thought into peoples head that I would have Batman appear much later in the movie, more so than would be rightfully appropriate for an audience to see. This isn't the case though, let me explain:

The origin in this movie, I would have structured and shown to the audience in much the same way as it was handled in Begins. Herr knows what i'm talking about it, by mixing up continuity as Begins did with intersplicing Bruce's childhood/training so that it doesn't follow a linear narrative as was first suggested. This in itself cuts down the screentime it would take to show the same events in a linear, straightforward narrative, since it would include editing which could be acheived flashback-like sequence. The origin in 'The Batman' should take about as long as it did in Begins, it will likely take a little longer to show, but I'm currently working on a framework for our movie of off the Begins script (encompassing all the ideas layed out by Herr and myself in relation to Bruce's childhood, growing up, and training), and all signs are positive in this respect. This movie will still be three-hours though, just to ensure you all I haven't ditched that idea.

The second-act (as I call it, remember I'm not referencing the traditional writer's structure here) would include Bruce back in Gotham, his first failed night-out, collecting intell and recon on all the key players (Gordan, Dent, Falcone), the construction of the Bat-suit and Batcave, and then into Batman! It would be succint, but entertaining and informative. Batman wouldn't be making it into the movie to late, he would be in it fairly quickly soon after arriving back from Gotham.

Think of it this way:

Three-hour movie:

• Bruce's childhood and training (1 hour )

• Bruce back at Gotham. Failed-mission, intell and recon, batcave and suit constructed. (20 minutes)

• The Batman's first night out. 'Hero vs. Villain' plot of the movie continuing from here. ( 1 hour 40 minutes )

What do you think?

I really, really, really want to show Bruce collecting intell and building up the batcave and his new persona, after his first-failed night out in regular street wear. It's just more effective for an audience to see this way, since it is Bruce's realisation that he cannot fight crime as a normal man, than influences his life changing decision to become 'something else' in order to carry out his "war on crime". None of this would take long to show between Bruce coming back and appearing at Batman, as I said earlier, and because we'll see the Batcave develop gradually throughout the movie anyway. It's just important we plant the necceasary seeds in good 'twenty minutes or so' to show what it takes in order for Bruce's new persona to evolve into what he eventually becomes. This sequence would include:

• Bruce going out in normal street wear and getting owned. This would be quick, and brutal. To drive the action home to the audience. It wont be long at all, but it will be effective and fun to see.
• Bruce back at the cave, seeing the bat. Again, quick and to the point, but effective.
• Then we'd see a montage of scenes like what we saw in Begins. Bruce deliberating on having shipments of equipment ordered in with Alfred. Bruce disguised as a dock-worker, taking the items he's secretly ordered back to the Manor,
• Bruce collecting intell on Dent, Gordan and Falcone while disguised. Really, really quick scenes. Bruce surveying crime-alley, with a hidden camera in two disguised as a homeless man. Again, very quick, since this is all a montage.
• Scenes of Bruce making up his equipment of gas pellets, batarangs, grappling guns, setting up stations full of forensic equipment and the like, and the almighty construction of the batsuit in the cave.

That in itself probaly doesn't even make up twenty-minutes, so perhaps some quick scenes showing Falcone and the GCPD? It would all be so succint and build-up to the when we finally see Batman.

 

[Zaphod]

No, it does not need to be said.

"A blur of red and yellow"? Remember that the B:TAS costume, based on Tim Drake's, has the cape black on the outside and yellow on the inside. I would definitely go this route. The inside would be more of a dark gold, too.

Agreed.

 

[Herr Logan]

[FONT=&quot]

Herr, I'd like to address the matter concerning Batman's showtime in the first movie, and the issue raised over when we should see him, as sooner rather than later:

I previously mentioned three-acts, in which Batman would show up in the third. Zev raised the point about this not being the correct structure, and I concede the point. However, this seemed to put the thought into peoples head that I would have Batman appear much later in the movie, more so than would be rightfully appropriate for an audience to see. This isn't the case though, let me explain:

The origin in this movie, I would have structured and shown to the audience in much the same way as it was handled in Begins. Herr knows what i'm talking about it, by mixing up continuity as Begins did with intersplicing Bruce's childhood/training so that it doesn't follow a linear narrative as was first suggested. This in itself cuts down the screentime it would take to show the same events in a linear, straightforward narrative, since it would include editing which could be acheived flashback-like sequence. The origin in 'The Batman' should take about as long as it did in Begins, it will likely take a little longer to show, but I'm currently working on a framework for our movie of off the Begins script (encompassing all the ideas layed out by Herr and myself in relation to Bruce's childhood, growing up, and training), and all signs are positive in this respect. This movie will still be three-hours though, just to ensure you all I haven't ditched that idea.

The second-act (as I call it, remember I'm not referencing the traditional writer's structure here) would include Bruce back in Gotham, his first failed night-out, collecting intell and recon on all the key players (Gordan, Dent, Falcone), the construction of the Bat-suit and Batcave, and then into Batman! It would be succint, but entertaining and informative. Batman wouldn't be making it into the movie to late, he would be in it fairly quickly soon after arriving back from Gotham.

Think of it this way:

Three-hour movie:

[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Bruce's childhood and training (1 hour )[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Bruce back at Gotham. Failed-mission, intell and recon, batcave and suit constructed. (20 minutes)[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]The Batman's first night out. 'Hero vs. Villain' plot of the movie continuing from here. ( 1 hour 40 minutes )[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What do you think?

I really, really, really want to show Bruce collecting intell and building up the batcave and his new persona, after his first-failed night out in regular street wear. It's just more effective for an audience to see this way, since it is Bruce's realisation that he cannot fight crime as a normal man, than influences his life changing decision to become 'something else' in order to carry out his "war on crime". None of this would take long to show between Bruce coming back and appearing at Batman, as I said earlier, and because we'll see the Batcave develop gradually throughout the movie anyway. It's just important we plant the necceasary seeds in good 'twenty minutes or so' to show what it takes in order for Bruce's new persona to evolve into what he eventually becomes. This sequence would include:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Bruce going out in normal street wear and getting owned. This would be quick, and brutal. To drive the action home to the audience. It wont be long at all, but it will be effective and fun to see.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Bruce back at the cave, seeing the bat. Again, quick and to the point, but effective.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Then we'd see a montage of scenes like what we saw in Begins. Bruce deliberating on having shipments of equipment ordered in with Alfred. Bruce disguised as a dock-worker, taking the items he's secretly ordered back to the Manor,[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Bruce collecting intell on Dent, Gordan and Falcone while disguised. Really, really quick scenes. Bruce surveying crime-alley, with a hidden camera in two disguised as a homeless man. Again, very quick, since this is all a montage.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]Scenes of Bruce making up his equipment of gas pellets, batarangs, grappling guns, setting up stations full of forensic equipment and the like, and the almighty construction of the batsuit in the cave.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That in itself probaly doesn't even make up twenty-minutes, so perhaps some quick scenes showing Falcone and the GCPD? It would all be so succint and build-up to the when we finally see Batman.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

I think it goes without saying that Bruce should be collecting Intel on crime before he has his failed first night out in street clothes. He should be ordering computer equipment and some tactical equipment (gas canisters) beforehand as well. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever that Bruce would need the omen of the Bat to tell him he should be a detective with hardcore knowledge of the city and use things like smoke bombs in his war against crime. Those were things he was going to do anyway, so I insist that some of that is shown before he gets his ass kicked in street clothes. Again, I don't want to spend too much time with Bruce out of costume, but I want the character to be consistent. He set out to learn to be a detective and a warrior long before he even came back to Gotham, so he should show that it's not in any way contingent on whether he wears a mask or not. Maybe he can’t effectively fight crime as a man, but he can certainly gather some information that way. He’ll just be more effective while in costume, since he’s completely focused.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Batcave should be brought into play right after Bruce sees his fateful omen crashing through his window. Like I said, he should already be ordering advanced computers and materials for the physical work beforehand, but those would be brought into the Mansion at first. After he has his fateful epiphany, he moves most of it to the Batcave and keeps the Manor pretty much free of evidence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don't think the origin that takes place before he returns to Gotham even needs to take a full hour. Then again, I haven't really visualized how much time the scenes with Henri Ducard and Willie Dogget would take. Hopefully not too long, as they aren't really that interesting compared to the Batman in full costume.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The other thing I'm worried about is that the experiences with Dogget and Ducard will be too similar in some ways. The only thing I've ever read about Dogget was in was 'The Man Who Falls,' and in the very, very brief section showing Bruce accompanying him, they are tracking an armed man named Tom Woodley through snowy mountains in Alaska. This seems more like a manhunting mission than anything else, which would make it redundant to show this after the scene with Ducard in Paris. There’s a big difference, of course, since the narration specifically says that Dogget was as gentle as Ducard was brutal but no less skilled or determined. Then again, what happened with Dogget leads directly into something that is very, very important to the mythos and to the story we want to tell. Dogget was killed by the Woodley, and Bruce Wayne defeated him when the Woodley tried to take him without using the gun. The narration and picture suggests that Woodley was thrown into a snowy canyon and probably died, which I would rather avoid as the outcome of that piece of story because I don’t want anyone to be able to say, “but he did kill that one time, so it’s not true that he never kills.” I don’t want any ambiguous culpability of causing another’s death. Maybe Woodley can lunge for Bruce the wrong way and fall off by himself. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anyway, Bruce lost his parka and supplies during all that and fell down in the snow, and then he was rescued by what was described as an "Indian shaman." This shaman wore a mask of a bat and told Bruce he also had the “mark of the bat.” I’d like to elaborate on that and have the shaman explain that some of the best warriors use totem masks to increase their power by helping them mentally transform. That part is very important to the story, and that should stop any stupid questions regarding why Bruce Wayne spends more than half of his waking hours in a mask, even when he’s alone in the cave.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Anyway, I don't know how exactly to do the Ducard and Dogget scenes, but I would definitely like the movie to be more "Year One" than "Batman Begins," although it's clearly somewhat of an alternate hybrid. I want to see the Batman out and about by the mark of 1 hour and 15 minutes at the very, very latest. Yes, the origin is important, but it doesn't require so much time that it would overshadow the meat of the story, which is the Batman laying down the "law" in Gotham while wearing a scary costume.
There would be a good deal more focus on Jim Gordon than in 'Begins,' but definitely less than 'Y1.' More focus on the Batman than in 'Y1,' and much more on the costumed persona, as opposed to the billionaire citizen, than in 'Begins.' There would be a coherent, sensible crime plot that portrays characters faithfully instead of as watered-down caricatures. Again, why would Falcone ever be seen anywhere near the scene of a crime at the docks? Unforgivable.

I wouldn't want there to be any reasonable complaint about how this movie didn't devote enough time to the real star instead of an incomplete shadow or a person who doesn't take his "job" seriously enough to be in uniform for about half of his screen time. I certainly wouldn't want to hear any conformist sheep defending a creative failure by saying, "It's an origin story, you'll get the finished product next time." Either it’s right the first time or the whole franchise is tainted. Obviously there are things that could be left until later on, but all the essential elements of the Dark Knight must be established up front.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thoughts?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Zaphod]

I think it goes without saying that Bruce should be collecting Intel on crime before he has his failed first night out in street clothes. He should be ordering computer equipment and some tactical equipment (gas canisters) beforehand as well. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever that Bruce would need the omen of the Bat to tell him he should be a detective with hardcore knowledge of the city and use things like smoke bombs in his war against crime. Those were things he was going to do anyway, so I insist that some of that is shown before he gets his ass kicked in street clothes. Again, I don't want to spend too much time with Bruce out of costume, but I want the character to be consistent. He set out to learn to be a detective and a warrior long before he even came back to Gotham, so he should show that it's not in any way contingent on whether he wears a mask or not. Maybe he can’t effectively fight crime as a man, but he can certainly gather some information that way. He’ll just be more effective while in costume, since he’s completely focused.

Bruce would start collecting intell and doing basic-recon stuff as soon as he arrives back at Gotham after his training. Aside from brief scenes involving him explain his "war on crime" to Alfred, Bruce would be seen going out disguised and conducting survelliance on three-key objectives: Lieutenant Gordan, D.A Harvey Dent, and Carmine Falcone. Bruce would already be staking out the GCPD before he learns that Gordan is the only cop that he could trust. Since Bruce would be doing all this in disguise as I mentioned, than obviously we'll be needing to show Alfred teaching Bruce make-up techniques early on in this part. This is good, because having this working-relationship established between Bruce and Alfred can then link onto scenes of the two ordering shipments of equipment through Wayne-Shipping, which would later appear as the hi-tech components of the Batcave. When Bruce does decide to go out for his first-night of fighting crime, we'll see him adopt a disguise of street-clothes, make-up, and a hockey-mask, he'll attack the target in the street, and quickly be set upon by a bunch of heavy-set guys. The only weapon I can see him using here is a 'gas-canister' as you mentioned, and while it is enough to distract and hinder the attacks of those he's fighting, he's still quickly made short work of when he is noticed as being nothing more than a 'guy in a mask'. Luckily, the 'gas' acts as enough of a smokescreen to allow him to escape after having been seriously injured in the conflict, and get back to the Manor. Back at the mansion, Bruce sits in earnest in the pitch-black study (this scene would look similar to how Keaton's Bruce was sitting in Returns, before the bat-signal lit-up the window), considering his options now that his first-attempt at fighting crime was a failure, and beggining to feel it was all for nothing, his training, his preperation, his years spent away, since he is still just a 'man' afterall. That is, until a black bat comes crashing through the window, startling Bruce but providing him with the knowledge and path for how to continue.

All the scenes with Bruce collecting-intell, learning disguise and make-up through Alfred, and ordering in the first of supplies, would be shown through a montage, with more attention paid to the 'failed night-out' and the 'bat-epiphany'. This is not to say the former of scenes would be skipped over in favour of the action, but since we'll see more of Bruce and Alfred setting up the Batcave later, it isn't neccessary to waste too much time on one thing at the expense of the other, more important, part.

The Batcave should be brought into play right after Bruce sees his fateful omen crashing through his window. Like I said, he should already be ordering advanced computers and materials for the physical work beforehand, but those would be brought into the Mansion at first. After he has his fateful epiphany, he moves most of it to the Batcave and keeps the Manor pretty much free of evidence.

It would also be the sight of the bat which causes Bruce to go back down into the Cave in the first place. I think this is what you mean, but just to be sure, Bruce wouldn't associate the Cave beneath the Manor with any aspect of his crime-fighting career until after he realises he must become 'fear' and take on the form of a 'bat' to truly be effective in his "war on crime". After this moment, he would go back down into the Cave in the next scene, and we'd see the birth of the Batman-persona right then and there.

I

don't think the origin that takes place before he returns to Gotham even needs to take a full hour. Then again, I haven't really visualized how much time the scenes with Henri Ducard and Willie Dogget would take. Hopefully not too long, as they aren't really that interesting compared to the Batman in full costume.

This depends: On the one hand, you could choose to focus-heavily on one aspect of his training, this would most likely be Bruce under Kirigi's tutlege for instance, and then have the rest of his travels made up as smaller, more brief scenes, which would just about make up an hour. Or, you could pay the same amount of screentime to each of Bruce's different trainings abroad, which would make the origin one long montage of scenes, with a voiceover to add the effect of a narrator-storytelling, which might have the training clock in at just under an hour. I would personally go with having Kirigi training Bruce as the most extensive part of his training, with the Bruce at the FBI being fairly brief, and the training with Ducard as being somewhere in the middle-ground length wise, between the other two.

The other thing I'm worried about is that the experiences with Dogget and Ducard will be too similar in some ways. The only thing I've ever read about Dogget was in was 'The Man Who Falls,' and in the very, very brief section showing Bruce accompanying him, they are tracking an armed man named Tom Woodley through snowy mountains in Alaska. This seems more like a manhunting mission than anything else, which would make it redundant to show this after the scene with Ducard in Paris. There’s a big difference, of course, since the narration specifically says that Dogget was as gentle as Ducard was brutal but no less skilled or determined. Then again, what happened with Dogget leads directly into something that is very, very important to the mythos and to the story we want to tell. Dogget was killed by the Woodley, and Bruce Wayne defeated him when the Woodley tried to take him without using the gun. The narration and picture suggests that Woodley was thrown into a snowy canyon and probably died, which I would rather avoid as the outcome of that piece of story because I don’t want anyone to be able to say, “but he did kill that one time, so it’s not true that he never kills.” I don’t want any ambiguous culpability of causing another’s death. Maybe Woodley can lunge for Bruce the wrong way and fall off by himself.

Anyway, Bruce lost his parka and supplies during all that and fell down in the snow, and then he was rescued by what was described as an "Indian shaman." This shaman wore a mask of a bat and told Bruce he also had the “mark of the bat.” I’d like to elaborate on that and have the shaman explain that some of the best warriors use totem masks to increase their power by helping them mentally transform. That part is very important to the story, and that should stop any stupid questions regarding why Bruce Wayne spends more than half of his waking hours in a mask, even when he’s alone in the cave.

How about combining both Dogget and Ducard into one character? This might sound strange at first since both characters abide by a totally different, opposing moral code. However, what I mean is in relation to their skills as 'Detectives', in that you could imbue Ducard with both the mahunting skills he had in the comic, and also give him the 'detective' skills that Dogget utilized? Ducard would still be the bastard he was in The Man Who Falls, he'd just come accross as a far more educated, versatile bastard, in that he'd have an equal balance of 'detective' and 'manhunter'. If you were going this route, than you'd have to make alterations to how Bruce ends up being rescued by a shaman in the snow. The way I would show it is like this:

Bruce leaves Kirgi's Monastery, and travelling the mountainour region, he becomes exhausted and collapses into the snow. When he next awaked, he has been resuced by a shaman with a 'bat' mask, who proclaims that Bruce also has 'the mark of the bat'. From here, we get a brief scene between the shaman and Bruce, demonstrating the mental-transformation that one can undergo when adopting a mask. After this, we have Bruce arriving in Paris, showing that some time has gone by, and getting training from Ducard. Bruce would eventually leave Ducard in disgust after his training, when he witnesses Ducard kill the fugitive which the two of them has been tracking. I have my ideas for how Bruce parts from Ducard, and it ties in quite nicely to what you wanted to show involving Bruce and Woodley, but not with those characters. You'll see what I mean when I post the outline for the origin later, meanwhile, dont fear that I have bastardized anything, 'trust me alittle would ya'?

Anyway, I don't know how exactly to do the Ducard and Dogget scenes, but I would definitely like the movie to be more "Year One" than "Batman Begins," although it's clearly somewhat of an alternate hybrid. I want to see the Batman out and about by the mark of 1 hour and 15 minutes at the very, very latest. Yes, the origin is important, but it doesn't require so much time that it would overshadow the meat of the story, which is the Batman laying down the "law" in Gotham while wearing a scary costume.
There would be a good deal more focus on Jim Gordon than in 'Begins,' but definitely less than 'Y1.' More focus on the Batman than in 'Y1,' and much more on the costumed persona, as opposed to the billionaire citizen, than in 'Begins.' There would be a coherent, sensible crime plot that portrays characters faithfully instead of as watered-down caricatures. Again, why would Falcone ever be seen anywhere near the scene of a crime at the docks? Unforgivable.

I agree on all of this

Speaking of the docks, I have got some more ideas for Batman detective work and evidence collecting involving that same spot, to post. I may PM the concept to you instead though. Aswell as some other ideas involving the third-act.

 

[Herr Logan]

Bruce would start collecting intell and doing basic-recon stuff as soon as he arrives back at Gotham after his training. Aside from brief scenes involving him explain his "war on crime" to Alfred, Bruce would be seen going out disguised and conducting survelliance on three-key objectives: Lieutenant Gordan, D.A Harvey Dent, and Carmine Falcone. Bruce would already be staking out the GCPD before he learns that Gordan is the only cop that he could trust. Since Bruce would be doing all this in disguise as I mentioned, than obviously we'll be needing to show Alfred teaching Bruce make-up techniques early on in this part. This is good, because having this working-relationship established between Bruce and Alfred can then link onto scenes of the two ordering shipments of equipment through Wayne-Shipping, which would later appear as the hi-tech components of the Batcave. When Bruce does decide to go out for his first-night of fighting crime, we'll see him adopt a disguise of street-clothes, make-up, and a hockey-mask, he'll attack the target in the street, and quickly be set upon by a bunch of heavy-set guys. The only weapon I can see him using here is a 'gas-canister' as you mentioned, and while it is enough to distract and hinder the attacks of those he's fighting, he's still quickly made short work of when he is noticed as being nothing more than a 'guy in a mask'. Luckily, the 'gas' acts as enough of a smokescreen to allow him to escape after having been seriously injured in the conflict, and get back to the Manor. Back at the mansion, Bruce sits in earnest in the pitch-black study (this scene would look similar to how Keaton's Bruce was sitting in Returns, before the bat-signal lit-up the window), considering his options now that his first-attempt at fighting crime was a failure, and beggining to feel it was all for nothing, his training, his preperation, his years spent away, since he is still just a 'man' afterall. That is, until a black bat comes crashing through the window, startling Bruce but providing him with the knowledge and path for how to continue.

All the scenes with Bruce collecting-intell, learning disguise and make-up through Alfred, and ordering in the first of supplies, would be shown through a montage, with more attention paid to the 'failed night-out' and the 'bat-epiphany'. This is not to say the former of scenes would be skipped over in favour of the action, but since we'll see more of Bruce and Alfred setting up the Batcave later, it isn't neccessary to waste too much time on one thing at the expense of the other, more important, part.



It would also be the sight of the bat which causes Bruce to go back down into the Cave in the first place. I think this is what you mean, but just to be sure, Bruce wouldn't associate the Cave beneath the Manor with any aspect of his crime-fighting career until after he realises he must become 'fear' and take on the form of a 'bat' to truly be effective in his "war on crime". After this moment, he would go back down into the Cave in the next scene, and we'd see the birth of the Batman-persona right then and there.



This depends: On the one hand, you could choose to focus-heavily on one aspect of his training, this would most likely be Bruce under Kirigi's tutlege for instance, and then have the rest of his travels made up as smaller, more brief scenes, which would just about make up an hour. Or, you could pay the same amount of screentime to each of Bruce's different trainings abroad, which would make the origin one long montage of scenes, with a voiceover to add the effect of a narrator-storytelling, which might have the training clock in at just under an hour. I would personally go with having Kirigi training Bruce as the most extensive part of his training, with the Bruce at the FBI being fairly brief, and the training with Ducard as being somewhere in the middle-ground length wise, between the other two.



How about combining both Dogget and Ducard into one character? This might sound strange at first since both characters abide by a totally different, opposing moral code. However, what I mean is in relation to their skills as 'Detectives', in that you could imbue Ducard with both the mahunting skills he had in the comic, and also give him the 'detective' skills that Dogget utilized? Ducard would still be the bastard he was in The Man Who Falls, he'd just come accross as a far more educated, versatile bastard, in that he'd have an equal balance of 'detective' and 'manhunter'. If you were going this route, than you'd have to make alterations to how Bruce ends up being rescued by a shaman in the snow. The way I would show it is like this:

Bruce leaves Kirgi's Monastery, and travelling the mountainour region, he becomes exhausted and collapses into the snow. When he next awaked, he has been resuced by a shaman with a 'bat' mask, who proclaims that Bruce also has 'the mark of the bat'. From here, we get a brief scene between the shaman and Bruce, demonstrating the mental-transformation that one can undergo when adopting a mask. After this, we have Bruce arriving in Paris, showing that some time has gone by, and getting training from Ducard. Bruce would eventually leave Ducard in disgust after his training, when he witnesses Ducard kill the fugitive which the two of them has been tracking. I have my ideas for how Bruce parts from Ducard, and it ties in quite nicely to what you wanted to show involving Bruce and Woodley, but not with those characters. You'll see what I mean when I post the outline for the origin later, meanwhile, dont fear that I have bastardized anything, 'trust me alittle would ya'?



I agree on all of this

Speaking of the docks, I have got some more ideas for Batman detective work and evidence collecting involving that same spot, to post. I may PM the concept to you instead though. Aswell as some other ideas involving the third-act.

I'm not in favor of combining Willie Dogget and Henri Ducard. I think there has to be a distinction between detection and coercion. Ducard taught Bruce how to beat information out of people, lie to them and some aspects of psychological manipulation Bruce presumably hadn't learned from his ninja mentors. I think these things need to be shown separately, even if not in fleshed-out sequences.

During the crime-fighting test run, I'm sure you meant to say "ski mask," not "hockey mask."

I think the movie could start with Bruce Wayne moping in his study, bleeding from wounds received during his unsuccessful attempt at crime- fighting, and his inner monologue could narrate the story from there, switching back and forth between with his origin starting from the very beginning (let's call that "Timeline 1") with the recent past where he returns to Gotham and begins setting up shop ("Timeline 2," which is a very brief period of time, relative to the rest of the film, but it can be spread out for the first act in between scenes from Timeline 1). I realize that having the movie start out with him bleeding and losing faith in himself is reminiscent of 'Daredevil,' but to hell with that. I think it could work, and it couldn't help but be a better movie than 'Daredevil,' no matter what.

I really think it's important to show that he's ordered high-end computers to log information and hack into databases, as well as crime lab equipment, etc. This is all stuff he'd be using no matter what he wore out on the streets, so we need to see it received independently from the Bat-persona. Perhaps Timeline 2 could trigger scenes from Timeline 1 that occur after Bruce has left Gotham City at age 14, intersplicing the receiving of crime-detection equipment, tactical gear and so forth with the moments in Timeline 1 where he learned to use each kind of equipment or tactics (Timeline 2 could also show a little bit of further training, trying to keep his hard-earned skills sharp after coming home, kind of like private, hardcore workouts).

I would prefer to keep the timeline from 'The Man Who Falls' relatively intact. I definitely want the shaman with the mask of the bat to appear after the training with the other masters, but maybe before the very brief boomerang (Australia or Africa) and bola (South America) scenes. I'd like Bruce to show a good deal of fear when he wakes up and sees the shaman who is healing him. After all, he does have a phobia of bats.
There should be some mention of Bruce studying Buddhist philosophy and techniques that further develop his mastery over his own body (advanced rate of healing, slowing the outflow of blood from a wound, lowering heart rate and breathing, etc.), but this could possibly be tied in with his training in Korea with Kirigi. Not everything has to be shown in flashbacks; some of it can be told through the narrative. For example, as I said earlier, in Timeline 2, Bruce can be shown recreating siutations he experienced during his training in Timeline 1 in his own home, like escape artistry, which he'll mention in the narrative that he learned primarily from Zatarra.
Actually, truth be told, the same could be said of learning to use boomerangs and bolas.


Our good friend Doc Ock mentioned to me the other night that I forgot to add in my outline the scene where Leslie Thompkins comforts Bruce right after his parents died. Basically, the only stuff I wrote of her was her worrying over Bruce and b1tching out Alfred. That was foolish, since of course she needs to be shown as a nurturing, comforting figure as well as one that doesn't hesitate to speak up when she disapproves of something.

 

[Zaphod]

I like these ideas, but it will take some serious thought and reworking in order to show the scenarios you mentioned, with those i've already typed, so they flow nicely throughout both Timeline 1 and Timeline 2, respectfully. As it stands, I'm not against the idea at all of having the movie start with Bruce suffering the aftermath of his over-zealous attempt on crime, and then having an internal-monologue recount the events which have brought him to where he is now. Dont think 'Daredevil', think 'Payback'. Have you seen that movie? Anyway, it's not too great strictly speaking, but it has a gritty-noir style and has a plot-structure much like the one your suggesting. If not damn right similar! I'll post more about it if you want to see how it could be used as a basis for a plot-structure in a treatment for 'The Batman'

By using this structure, they'd be far more opportune moments to flesh out multiple aspects of Bruce's origin which would have been hard to fit-in had we decided to go with the set-up of 'Begins'. That would include being able to effectively portray both Ducard and Dogget as two very different but equally important mentors for Bruce's training.

During the crime-fighting test run, I'm sure you meant to say "ski mask," not "hockey mask."

Ay, that I did

I really think it's important to show that he's ordered high-end computers to log information and hack into databases, as well as crime lab equipment, etc. This is all stuff he'd be using no matter what he wore out on the streets, so we need to see it received independently from the Bat-persona. Perhaps Timeline 2 could trigger scenes from Timeline 1 that occur after Bruce has left Gotham City at age 14, intersplicing the receiving of crime-detection equipment, tactical gear and so forth with the moments in Timeline 1 where he learned to use each kind of equipment or tactics (Timeline 2 could also show a little bit of further training, trying to keep his hard-earned skills sharp after coming home, kind of like private, hardcore workouts).

Of course. I had originally planned to have one of Bruce's first priorities when he gets back to Gotham, to be the setting-up of his computer terminals and stations. He'd need them first anyway, since it would be through hacking into Wayne-Shipping and arranging indirect delivery-routes that way, that Bruce manages to obtain further equipment to use in his "war on crime". This means the computers would presumably have to come from somewhere else other than Wayne Industries? Thoughts on that, it's not overly important where gets his computers from, just that it would be the starting point for the building up of Bruce's crime-fighting technology.

I also like the idea of showing what Bruce uses in the field and in the Cave in Timeline 2, evolves from prior training he went through in Timeline 1. It serves as a useful vehicle for interconnecting Bruce's training with his career in crime-fighting in Gotham.

Our good friend Doc Ock mentioned to me the other night that I forgot to add in my outline the scene where Leslie Thompkins comforts Bruce right after his parents died. Basically, the only stuff I wrote of her was her worrying over Bruce and b1tching out Alfred. That was foolish, since of course she needs to be shown as a nurturing, comforting figure as well as one that doesn't hesitate to speak up when she disapproves of something.

I plan to feature in a scene within Bruce's childhood, involving Leslie coming to the Manor to discuss medical-business with Thomas, and seeing young Bruce for the first time. It would pretty much cover the aspects of her nurturing, caring side, and plant the seeds for later when Batman pays a visit to Dr. Thompkins clinic in Crime-Alley.

 

[Herr Logan]

I like these ideas, but it will take some serious thought and reworking in order to show the scenarios you mentioned, with those i've already typed, so they flow nicely throughout both Timeline 1 and Timeline 2, respectfully. As it stands, I'm not against the idea at all of having the movie start with Bruce suffering the aftermath of his over-zealous attempt on crime, and then having an internal-monologue recount the events which have brought him to where he is now. Dont think 'Daredevil', think 'Payback'. Have you seen that movie? Anyway, it's not too great strictly speaking, but it has a gritty-noir style and has a plot-structure much like the one your suggesting. If not damn right similar! I'll post more about it if you want to see how it could be used as a basis for a plot-structure in a treatment for 'The Batman'

Yeah, I've seen 'Payback.' God help us if we can't write a better movie than that.

"Over-eager" might be a better term than "over-zealous." He doesn't stop being a zealot. He does stop being an amateur.

By using this structure, they'd be far more opportune moments to flesh out multiple aspects of Bruce's origin which would have been hard to fit-in had we decided to go with the set-up of 'Begins'. That would include being able to effectively portray both Ducard and Dogget as two very different but equally important mentors for Bruce's training.

I can't seem to find anything online that fleshes out Bruce's time with Willie Dogget, or how this renowned detective was useful at all. To tell you the truth, I could take or leave even mentioning his name if I can’t find anything soon. Henri Ducard has an actual story to him, as recounted in ‘Blind Justice,’ and he’s made several appearances since (not that I’ve read them, mind you), even training Robin (why the Batman would send his new protégé to someone like Ducard is beyond me, however). He has to at least mention that he trained with world-famous detectives, but if we really wanted to cut the origin recount length, this might actually be a good place to do it, as long as there is at least one scene where the Batman (in full garb) works a crime scene or follows leads in a long-spanning case like a good detective would. I’m not sure where to go from there, but I’m saying that Ducard takes priority, since I can’t corroborate Willie Dogget appearing anywhere but in ‘The Man Who Falls’ and there’s no real story there. Again, he’s tracking some guy down in the wilderness, and that’s something Ducard could just as easily have taught him. Hell, he learned stuff like that (although not in snowy environments) in Africa from bushmen, in addition to whatever Ducard showed him. I want to nail it down that he’ll learn the boomerang stuff somewhere in the African continent, not in Australia, as it was explicitly stated in several sources that he learned hunting skills from African bushmen.
I haven’t read anything about Kirigi outside of ‘The Man Who Falls’ except in second-hand sources (online summaries of the Batman’s history), but what was in that aforementioned story is substantial enough to put in a movie pretty much word for word, with some actual instruction shown as well.

Of course. I had originally planned to have one of Bruce's first priorities when he gets back to Gotham, to be the setting-up of his computer terminals and stations. He'd need them first anyway, since it would be through hacking into Wayne-Shipping and arranging indirect delivery-routes that way, that Bruce manages to obtain further equipment to use in his "war on crime". This means the computers would presumably have to come from somewhere else other than Wayne Industries? Thoughts on that, it's not overly important where gets his computers from, just that it would be the starting point for the building up of Bruce's crime-fighting technology.

Regardless of where the more advanced equipment is being ordered from, it needs to be filtered through dummy corporations and false names, etc., just like in ‘Batman Begins.’ That particular aspect t doesn’t need any more explanation than was given in ‘Begins,’ either. The major differences between the two movies on that score is that Bruce and Alfred will be ordering a hell of a lot more stuff throughout the movie and transporting it to the Cave.

The Batcave should probably have the same set-up with the elevator left over from the days of slavery as ‘Begins’ (I’m pretty sure the Underground Railroad aspect is taken from the comics; Wayne’s ancestor is described as being a greedy bastard—hence the vast real estate-based fortune—who thankfully had a humanitarian streak) also with the elevator shaft being behind the wall of the study. Obviously this isn’t the only way to the Cave, since the Batmobile needs an entrance, and that entrance (which lies a good distance away from the Manor) will be the main route through which the heavier and more cumbersome equipment is brought to the Cave. The elevator will have to be modified, because I’ll be God damned if the Batman is going to use an ancient elevator operating on a chain left over from the pre-Civil War era. I think Alfred would agree. Anyway, the elevator would be renovated by Bruce himself (I know he could pull it off, with a little help from Alfred) so that it can hold enough weight for about four or five people Bruce’s size and a certain amount of extra weight for light equipment.

Certain equipment that a rich person could keep in his home like fancy gym equipment, wardrobes full of clothes and make-up, etc. can go straight to Bruce Wayne, not through dummy corporations.

I also like the idea of showing what Bruce uses in the field and in the Cave in Timeline 2, evolves from prior training he went through in Timeline 1. It serves as a useful vehicle for interconnecting Bruce's training with his career in crime-fighting in Gotham.

Good.

I plan to feature in a scene within Bruce's childhood, involving Leslie coming to the Manor to discuss medical-business with Thomas, and seeing young Bruce for the first time. It would pretty much cover the aspects of her nurturing, caring side, and plant the seeds for later when Batman pays a visit to Dr. Thompkins clinic in Crime-Alley.

I could go either way on that first part, and I'm actually leaning more toward not showing Leslie before the night the Waynes get killed. I think if the scene is done well enough, it will be all the introduction the character needs, and perhaps more powerful. I think Bruce should meet her for the first time here, or at least have this be the first time he really saw her as something other than one of those people his dad knows.

 

[Herr Logan]

Here's something I meant to post days ago:


Bruce should be at the very youngest in his mid-20's when he comes back to Gotham from his travels, and maybe late twenties. The Batman was never a Spider-Man type who started off very young. He's a grown man (although one whose emotional development was arrested early on, even if he's an expert at faking "normality") when he pulls on that mask. He spent about two decades training so that when he comes back, he'll be ready for anything. The "learning experiences" (i.e. failures) he comes across in his new identity are attributed to the fact that he hasn't acclimated to Gotham City yet. He's got hardcore skills that can be used universally, but only when his knowledge of tactics is complimented by intimate knowledge of Gotham City and its denizens will he be complete. Yes, he'll stumble a bit in this movie, as it is Year One, but he doesn't approach his mission tentatively or with trepidation. Step 1: 20 years of training, starting from early childhood all the way through mid- to late 20's to proportional degrees. Step 2: Come back home, jump into the fray with guns a-blazin' (figuratively speaking, of course). He's got the skills, muscle and knowledge, so once he gets reacquainted with his city, he's not just the Batman. He's the Goddamn Batman.

That sounds good. How about the bike though as I mentioned? Would that be saved for a later movie? I think this movie could end with the shematics for such a vehicle drawn up and in sight for the audience to see, but not shown complete and in use until a sequel.

The Batman should definitely have a motorcycle on hand throughout the first movie. He'll only use it while the Batmobile is being built or worked on, though, and after the Batmobile gets busted from the self-destruct mechanism and taken into custody as evidence.

I would like to add a scene for Bruce's early years (early teens, where most of that content is) where Bruce is shown enjoying himself with motorcycles and fast cars. This is, of course, another complaint of Leslie's.

I'm thinking now that a lot of the 14th year sequences will be shown in the course of a conversation/argument between Alfred and Leslie. Alfred will be, for the most part, defending Bruce's right to do things his way, but not the behavior itself, or at least not all of it.

Anyway, back to "fun with engines."
Alfred doesn't attempt to forbid Bruce from driving dangerously fast cars and motorcycles as long as he doesn't do it on public roads in the city (we'll see him driving a racing-quality sports car around a track and on a lonely highway out in Gotham County, and riding a motorcycle off-road). This is because he knows that stubborn Bruce won't be forbidden on anything, and also because Bruce is supernally competent with these machines. Also (and this is perhaps the most important reasons), cars and bikes seem to be one of the very few "vices" Bruce entertains, and one of the only ways he seems to actually have fun. It warms Alfred's heart to see Bruce have fun, although he will never let Bruce see him looking on with approval when he rides in a dangerous vehicle, of course.

This love of powerful vehicles will show up again when Bruce returns and goes to work as the Batman. There is a good deal of humanity shown in Bruce when he is with Alfred (as in, he's not always the impenetrable wall that is his trademark in recent comics), but he's still always haunted and scarily driven when he's in that Cave. When he plays around with the Batmobile, he almost looks like he’s really enjoying himself.

The only real vices shown in adult Bruce in the first movie are violence (of course), powerful vehicles and personalizing as much of his equipment as possible whenever he gets the chance.
I realize some people think it’s silly that the Batman would make such an effort to stylize all his gear, but that’s how it has always been done in the comics (even in the “darker” eras), and what the hell is the fun of having live-action Batman gear that doesn’t look like Batman gear? Anyway, like everything else these puny-minded pseudo-“reality” advocates might possibly have a problem with, it would be addressed outright in the movie; if not to diffuse the incredulity, then to take a stand and say “this is how the Batman does it, period!”

I imagine Alfred commenting on most of these things. I’d like Bruce to make a joke about it as well after Alfred gives his two cents about the whole personalizing spree. Something about how he wants Alfred to order a whole bunch of Batman business cards, in a deadpan manner, and Alfred will say something along the lines of, “If I were the World’s Greatest Detective, maybe I’d be able to tell when you’re joking these days.”

Yeah, numerous and difficult to trace channels of payment would make it easier for Bruce to fund his war on crime without drawing attention and suspicion to himself.

Exactly.

 

[Herr Logan]

For those that have read my endless posts on my Batman video game concept and the Batman movie concept we're discussing now, you'll have an image in mind when I say that I would fully want there to be a video game to accompany this movie that's as close to 'Dark Knight Detective' as can be while forgoing several villains, gadget and plotlines.

The gadgets would be limited to these:

Utility Equipment:

Bat-Grapnel
Listening Device
Finger-light
Lock Picks
Miniaturized Tools
Rope-cutter
Gas Mask/Rebreather
Ninja Climbing Gear
Bat-Rope
Binoculars
Water mist spray
Crime Scene Kit:

• Micro Camera/Recorder (saves and files pictures and notes in Batcomputer and Mental Log)
• Swabs (for blood and all residues)
• Tweezers (for hair samples)
• ·Fingerprinting kit
• ·Odor-analyzing Chromatograph (for testing ambient gas and vapors)
• Luminol (for detecting bloodstains)
• ·Sample bags (for storing all samples)
• IR foot print dye (works in concert with infrared vision to track foot print trails)

First-Aid Kit
GPS

Offensive Equipment:

Batarangs
Bat-shuriken
Bat-bolas
Smoke Pellets
Tear Gas Pellets
Flashbang Pellets
Bat-Cuffs



These are the items missing from the full list (the full compliment that the Batman would have in future movies, to match what he uses now):

Laser Torch
Tracking Device
Universal Tool
Infrared Paint Marker
Foaming Explosive
Electronic Device Freezer
Quick-Acting Knockout Spray
Mini Computer

• Flash-RAM Drive
• Auto-Hacking Device
• Phone Tap
• ·Bat-Vehicle Remote Control

Very few of the “heavy hitters” of the Rogues Gallery would appear in this game, probably, as they’d be saved for future games and their corresponding movies.
Villains that can probably fit into any game regardless of which villains appear in future movies:
Any straight-up gangster type (aside from Falcone and Maroni after the first two)
Penguin (he can show up in any future movie as well)
Scarface & the Ventriloquist
Killer Croc
Firefly
Clayface
Man-Bat
Killer Moth
KGBeast
Victor Zsasz (who could also be in any movie after the first)
Mad Hatter
Catman


Thoughts?

 

[Cullen]

This is just me thinking aloud. No set essay-ish post tonight. Just musings.

• The more I mull a Batman treatment, the more I don't wanna do a "Year One" for the first film. At least, not as full on as "Batman Begins." I'm more interested in Batman proper, how he functions in Gotham City and, more to the point, how Gotham City functions with him in it. Dropping the "Year One" concept makes things a whole lot easier for me. Whether I do drop it or not is another matter...
• While I think using "The Man Who Falls" as a basis is an excellent idea, there are some areas of the story that stick in my craw, at least in adapting even a portion of it. First, the Indian Shaman in the bat mask is a bit too on the nose for me. Especially him telling Bruce he has the "Mark of the Bat." Sounds Bat-totemy to me, and after JMS... Nothing doing.
• The second part is Ducard and Dogget. Both can be dropped altogether and probably should. However, if they are in the film, they should really have a part in the overall plot. Guilt on Bruce's part, say, for Dogget's death, or having to deal with Ducard on top of everything else.

I have a certain story idea in mind, with a specific villian. I won't say I'll have anything for this thread, because I have other things more pressing. But I've already done more on this subject than I thought I would, and it does dance about in my thoughts.

 

[Herr Logan]

This is just me thinking aloud. No set essay-ish post tonight. Just musings.

• The more I mull a Batman treatment, the more I don't wanna do a "Year One" for the first film. At least, not as full on as "Batman Begins." I'm more interested in Batman proper, how he functions in Gotham City and, more to the point, how Gotham City functions with him in it. Dropping the "Year One" concept makes things a whole lot easier for me. Whether I do drop it or not is another matter...

My ideal franchise launch would combine the origin with the Batman proper. The Batman in the movie Zaphod and I are discussing would come back to Gotham much more experienced and would have more challenging work ahead of him (actual detective work and extensive surveillance to bring down a real Mafia boss, not some half-assed thug who can be caught red-handed at the site of a drug shipment). He would be a little bit shakier than the Batman we're used to seeing in current fiction, but not an amateur by any means. Once he's in costume, he'll make a couple of mistakes (getting caught off-guard by the Penguin, for one), but he'll learn quickly and get down to business, proving his competence beyond a reasonable doubt.

I've decided that the best way to do this and minimize the "It's only an origin, he'll be on his game next time" factor (more than it's already minimized, since the script would specifically be gearedtoward not giving sheep and shills an excuse to use that useless platitude) by filming the first and second films back to back and waiting only a year to release the sequel (like 'Kill Bill'), and do the same thing again when the second movie is released so the audience can get four movies in four years. Provided there was a budget for four 3-hour movies to begin with, this will make more money, as more DVDs will be available sooner, and the cast won't "outgrow" their roles as quickly over the course of the franchise.
Seriously, if this franchise was done right and marketed well, there's no way it wouldn't earn back its cost. The Batman is one of the most famous and recognized icons in the world. I see no reason why it couldn't be done this way.

• While I think using "The Man Who Falls" as a basis is an excellent idea, there are some areas of the story that stick in my craw, at least in adapting even a portion of it. First, the Indian Shaman in the bat mask is a bit too on the nose for me. Especially him telling Bruce he has the "Mark of the Bat." Sounds Bat-totemy to me, and after JMS... Nothing doing.

That's not a nearly good enough reason not to use the power of the mask. Whether it be an Indian Shaman or some other tribal leader who transforms mentally with a mask, this is an essential element of the Batman character.
I'm just as pissed off at JMS and his hack-ass writing on Spider-Man as you are, if not more so, but the difference here is that the Batman is a totemic figure, while Spider-Man is a science hero that doesn't need a mask to perform great feats. His physiology was altered by radiation, and this mystical crap is nonsense. Doing that with Spider-Man is wrong, but doing that with the Batman is correct.
The Batman, however, is just a man, and a man must rely on his human abilities and the will to use them. The mask helps him effect a subtle but profound psychological transformation that focuses his psyche toward his goals. There's nothing mystical about it, even if superstitious mentors and influences Bruce Wayne learned from believed it is. For the Batman, it's just psychology, which is his ultimate weapon. By becoming fear, he is fearless and likely to secure a victory over those who also attempt to use fear on others. Again, this is essential to the character to truly give the costume and gimmicks "credibility." Even if people in the audience say, "He doesn't really look like a bat, so it's stupid that everyone thinks he's a supernatural creature," it will be valid because the Batman projects that image through body language, illusion and sheer will. Yes, there's some suspension of disbelief required no matter what, but if someone pays money to see a Batman movie, they'd better be able to handle the fact that the Batman is a couple steps removed from reality any way you slice it.

In the novelization of the 'Knightfall' saga, when Bane broke into the Batcave, Bruce put his mask on before engaging him, even though Bane clearly already knew his secret identity. Bane asked him why he was trying to hide, and the Batman replied that he wasn't hiding, he was "becoming." That sums up why it's essential for the Batman to utilize primal concepts regarding the empowerment of the mask, because he needs to be in a certain mindset to take on someone as powerful as Bane, or something as amorphous, infinite and ubiquitous as "crime." I don't mean to say that Bruce Wayne can't hold his own in a fight without the mask, and it should never be construed that way; the difference is that the mask insures that he will be at his best and have his mind in the right place, whereas without the mask, there's some room for error.

• The second part is Ducard and Dogget. Both can be dropped altogether and probably should. However, if they are in the film, they should really have a part in the overall plot. Guilt on Bruce's part, say, for Dogget's death, or having to deal with Ducard on top of everything else.

I'm a little bit torn on this, but I'm leaning toward having at the very, very least a significant mention and summary of what Bruce learned from Ducard, if not a brief flashback. It's important to note that Bruce tracked down dangerous people with unsavory reputations (which actually poses a potential problem, as it might make Bruce look naive if he is suddenly shocked that Ducard doesn't deal with his prey in a non-lethal fashion if Ducard is said to have had a shady reputation even before he met Bruce-- then again, he was pretty naive).

Again, that's if there's an origin story involved, which is a direction you wouldn't go in.

I have a certain story idea in mind, with a specific villian. I won't say I'll have anything for this thread, because I have other things more pressing. But I've already done more on this subject than I thought I would, and it does dance about in my thoughts.

More pressing than this thread?? Bastard!!

Feel free to post your ideas here when your oh-so-important schedule permits. Do be aware that I'll take you to task for anything that blatantly flies in the face of "faithfulness," as I always have.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Herr Logan]

Zaphod!! Speak to me!

 

[MoPlaYa]

Happy 420 to everyone at the Hype!!

 

[Herr Logan]

Happy 420 to everyone at the Hype!!

This is a no smoking zone*, but thanks.






*'Cept cigars, o' course.

 

[Zev]

*'Cept cigars, o' course.

And the smoking-hot Angeline Jolie.

 

[Hunter Rider]

And the smoking-hot Angeline Jolie.

Indeed

 

[Herr Logan]

And the smoking-hot Angeline Jolie.

She's my #1 pick for Catwoman in my ideal Batman movie franchise.

 

[Herr Logan]

Indeed

That a boy!

 

[Zev]

She's a fox. In French she would be called "la renarde" and she would be hunted with only her cunning to protect her. She's a babe. She's a robo-babe. In Latin she would be called "babia majora". If she were a president she would be Baberaham Lincoln.