Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Cullen]

We need Marv Wolfman to save Spider-man.

Right now.

(Haven't read any of his later stuff, but those pages... whoa. Classic comic goodness, I think.)

 

[Zev]

Gwen/MJ > Norman/Gwen.

You know he'd do it, it's just a matter of how long.

Herr, did I post my idea for a Nightwing police procedural?

 

[Herr Logan]

Gwen/MJ > Norman/Gwen.

You know he'd do it, it's just a matter of how long.

We don't talk about that here!

Herr, did I post my idea for a Nightwing police procedural?

I don't think so. What's a procedural?

 

[Zev]

Hey, I never said anything about Teen Titans and whether your tendency for filthy text (not even subtext, but text) is incongruous with that.

So, you're saying I don't write filthy subtext?

...

[House]Is that like a dare or something?[/House]

Speaking of Dr. House, one of my ideas would be to take Batman in the exact opposite direction of the Year One. Not all the way to DKR, but about midway there. Bruce's in his thirties, he has one retired Robin and one active one, Jason Todd. Instead of rejecting the "Big Scary Batgod" Omnipotent!Batman of the JLA and others, let's embrace that and make him a big mentory bag of hardass, trying to train others to carry on the Mission when he inevitably dies (maybe he even has a bit of a death wish; something to explore).

Taking a cue from the TAS, we may never even see the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne, instead starting in media res with Bruce Wayne as a fully-trained, veteran Batman.

This "Batman Family" would showcase a few things happening at once.

1. Tim Drake, acting as the audience identification figure, introduces us to the Batfamily. Batman is kept in the shadows, a cipher, acting mostly to give the others a nudge in the right direction or a kick in the ass when the situation requires (of course, he's Batman, so the situation ALWAYS requires a bit of a psychological kick in the ass).

2. Jason Todd is becoming more and more of a rogue.

3. Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon have retired from "the business" and moved into more of a support role, like a "big brother/sister" program for the younger vigilantes. Dick's become a cop under Commissioner Gordon's direct command and there's a father/father conflict between Gordon's lawful principles and Batman's vigilantism that divides Dick. Is he a vigilante playing cop or a cop who used to be a vigilante?

That all changes when Joker attacks, his biggest offensive to date. Ala Joker's Last Laugh, he Jokerizes the entire rogue's gallery. The second act is sheer containment, trying to round up all the escaped villains, Batman acting as a general and ordering around whatever troops outside the core team he has. Think Knightfall. Batman is increasingly run ragged as the city burns. Throughout all of this, Joker is waiting, silently biding his time. Then he hits Batman where he lives, so to speak.

Barbara Gordon is paralyzed. Thirsty for blood, Dick demands that Bruce let him be Batman again. Bruce refuses, afraid of what Dick might do if he gets his hands on Joker. Dick thinks that Bruce thinks he can't cut it. He becomes Nightwing and goes after Joker on his own. Worse, he recruits Jason to his cause.

Barbara, from her hospital bed, starts gathering information, forming the basis of the identity that will become the Oracle. She pinpoints the Joker's location, but it's left ambiguous as to who she gives this information to. Either way, both Nightwing and Batman find out where Joker is holed up. Tim Drake stows away on the Batwing as Batman goes after Joker.

Nightwing and Jason catch up to him first. Jason is brutally killed. Nightwing, enraged, strangles Joker to death. Horrified at what he's done, Nightwing goes into a fugue state as Batman resuscitates the Joker (again, from Joker's Last Laugh).

The dynamic of the Batfamily is fundamentally altered. Dick blames himself for everything and takes off, leaving Barbara behind. Batman swears to never rely on anyone but himself again. Joker goes back to Arkham, singing a happy tune.

Keynote: Although Joker and his "family" of Jokerized villains are a very real and present threat, the emphasis is on how the politics of the Batfamily work, the shifting allegiances, the power struggles, the rebellions, everything. There should be a nice, long first act sketching out how Dick and Jason are like brothers, how Bruce is afraid to admit he considers Dick a son, how Leslie Thompkins and Alfred Pennyworth fit into all this, how Bruce tries and fails to redeem Jason (Jason's death being the "original sin" that heralds the fall from grace of the entire Batfamily), how Commissioner Gordon feels about having a vigilante operating in his city with a young boy as his partner no less, and so on.

This would be no small, down-to-earth drama, but a grand epic about heroes and villains who are larger than life, with corresponding emotions and conflicts. By the end of the day a non-fan should know how all the Batfamily relates to each other, as well as why Joker does what he does.

 

[Herr Logan]

So, you're saying I don't write filthy subtext?

...

[House]Is that like a dare or something?[/House]

No, dammit! At least not here.

Speaking of Dr. House, one of my ideas would be to take Batman in the exact opposite direction of the Year One. Not all the way to DKR, but about midway there. Bruce's in his thirties, he has one retired Robin and one active one, Jason Todd. Instead of rejecting the "Big Scary Batgod" Omnipotent!Batman of the JLA and others, let's embrace that and make him a big mentory bag of hardass, trying to train others to carry on the Mission when he inevitably dies (maybe he even has a bit of a death wish; something to explore).

Taking a cue from the TAS, we may never even see the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne, instead starting in media res with Bruce Wayne as a fully-trained, veteran Batman.

This "Batman Family" would showcase a few things happening at once.

1. Tim Drake, acting as the audience identification figure, introduces us to the Batfamily. Batman is kept in the shadows, a cipher, acting mostly to give the others a nudge in the right direction or a kick in the ass when the situation requires (of course, he's Batman, so the situation ALWAYS requires a bit of a psychological kick in the ass).

2. Jason Todd is becoming more and more of a rogue.

3. Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon have retired from "the business" and moved into more of a support role, like a "big brother/sister" program for the younger vigilantes. Dick's become a cop under Commissioner Gordon's direct command and there's a father/father conflict between Gordon's lawful principles and Batman's vigilantism that divides Dick. Is he a vigilante playing cop or a cop who used to be a vigilante?

That all changes when Joker attacks, his biggest offensive to date. Ala Joker's Last Laugh, he Jokerizes the entire rogue's gallery. The second act is sheer containment, trying to round up all the escaped villains, Batman acting as a general and ordering around whatever troops outside the core team he has. Think Knightfall. Batman is increasingly run ragged as the city burns. Throughout all of this, Joker is waiting, silently biding his time. Then he hits Batman where he lives, so to speak.

Barbara Gordon is paralyzed. Thirsty for blood, Dick demands that Bruce let him be Batman again. Bruce refuses, afraid of what Dick might do if he gets his hands on Joker. Dick thinks that Bruce thinks he can't cut it. He becomes Nightwing and goes after Joker on his own. Worse, he recruits Jason to his cause.

Barbara, from her hospital bed, starts gathering information, forming the basis of the identity that will become the Oracle. She pinpoints the Joker's location, but it's left ambiguous as to who she gives this information to. Either way, both Nightwing and Batman find out where Joker is holed up. Tim Drake stows away on the Batwing as Batman goes after Joker.

Nightwing and Jason catch up to him first. Jason is brutally killed. Nightwing, enraged, strangles Joker to death. Horrified at what he's done, Nightwing goes into a fugue state as Batman resuscitates the Joker (again, from Joker's Last Laugh).

The dynamic of the Batfamily is fundamentally altered. Dick blames himself for everything and takes off, leaving Barbara behind. Batman swears to never rely on anyone but himself again. Joker goes back to Arkham, singing a happy tune.

Keynote: Although Joker and his "family" of Jokerized villains are a very real and present threat, the emphasis is on how the politics of the Batfamily work, the shifting allegiances, the power struggles, the rebellions, everything. There should be a nice, long first act sketching out how Dick and Jason are like brothers, how Bruce is afraid to admit he considers Dick a son, how Leslie Thompkins and Alfred Pennyworth fit into all this, how Bruce tries and fails to redeem Jason (Jason's death being the "original sin" that heralds the fall from grace of the entire Batfamily), how Commissioner Gordon feels about having a vigilante operating in his city with a young boy as his partner no less, and so on.

This would be no small, down-to-earth drama, but a grand epic about heroes and villains who are larger than life, with corresponding emotions and conflicts. By the end of the day a non-fan should know how all the Batfamily relates to each other, as well as why Joker does what he does.

This is meant to be a movie, as opposed to a TV series, right? Just wanted to check.

This sounds very interesting. Thanks for posting it, Zev.

 

[Zev]

This is meant to be a movie, as opposed to a TV series, right? Just wanted to check.

This sounds very interesting. Thanks for posting it, Zev.

Yup.

We don't talk about that here!

Mary-Jane: Peter, I have something to confess...

Peter: What is it?

Mary-Jane: I'm the one who got Gwen pregnant!

Peter: What? But... you're a woman!

Mary-Jane: Superboy-Prime punched the universe.

Peter: Wrong continuity.

Mary-Jane: Oh. Well then, Scarlet Witch went crazy.

Peter: Scarlet Witch went crazy, so you impregnated Gwen Stacy.

Mary-Jane: Say that again, knowing what you know about Gwen.

 

[Cullen]

No. I can't do it. Ignore this post. It's too stupid even for me. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

 

[Herr Logan]

Yup.



Mary-Jane: Peter, I have something to confess...

Peter: What is it?

Mary-Jane: I'm the one who got Gwen pregnant!

Peter: What? But... you're a woman!

Mary-Jane: Superboy-Prime punched the universe.

Peter: Wrong continuity.

Mary-Jane: Oh. Well then, Scarlet Witch went crazy.

Peter: Scarlet Witch went crazy, so you impregnated Gwen Stacy.

Mary-Jane: Say that again, knowing what you know about Gwen.

You cut that out, God damn you!

 

[Herr Logan]

No. I can't do it. Ignore this post. It's too stupid even for me. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Ignore what? You had something on-topic to say? I'd hate to miss it if that's the case.

 

[Cullen]

Ignore what? You had something on-topic to say? I'd hate to miss it if that's the case.

Nothing on topic. Which was why I "deleted" it.

You're better off not knowing. Safer, even.

 

[Zev]

Nothing on topic. Which was why I "deleted" it.

You're better off not knowing. Safer, even.

We can't handle the truth, Herr.

 

[Herr Logan]

You kids better start behavin', or I'm-a roll up my sleeves!

 

[Zev]

I said that about Spider-Man and I stand by it.

Yes, clean, innocent Spider-Man... nothing subtextual going on there... Except for...

Latent homosexuality!

Child molestation!

Thwarted infidelity!

Incest!

Harry Osborn's moustache!

Bondage!

...

I don't even know what to call that, but no, no, it's not alright!

 

[Herr Logan]

Zev, seriously, cut it out.

This isn't the place for ludicrous comic book panels. You already have a thread for that, and that's what you should be linking in your signature, not an off-topic string of spam in a thread that's about something else.

 

[Zaphod]

Zaphod! Where in the sphincter of hell have you been??

Respond, dammit!

Must I be at the constant mercy of your unadulterated impaitence?



Seriously though, I held of posting back right away, since I've had some schoolwork to finish off, however I am in the midst of a fairly large post concerning your ideas for Bruce's childhood and past, aswell as posting the outline for Bruce's training, proper. I also want to start discussing the final act(s) of this movie sooner rather than later, in detail, to at least get some solid ideas up and running.

I dont want to say for sure when all this will be and posted, but in the meantime, if you want to post any other ideas worth discussing, please do so, and I'll try and reply inbetween typing up by larger post's.

 

[Herr Logan]

Must I be at the constant mercy of your unadulterated impaitence?

Is that even a question?!

Seriously though, I held of posting back right away, since I've had some schoolwork to finish off, however I am in the midst of a fairly large post concerning your ideas for Bruce's childhood and past, aswell as posting the outline for Bruce's training, proper. I also want to start discussing the final act(s) of this movie sooner rather than later, in detail, to at least get some solid ideas up and running.

I dont want to say for sure when all this will be and posted, but in the meantime, if you want to post any other ideas worth discussing, please do so, and I'll try and reply inbetween typing up by larger post's.

Fair enough. I wouldn't want you to neglect your schoolwork. That's my job.

I've been working on a few things bit by bit, nothing too exciting. If you have any smaller points to make in response to anything I've posted, feel free to post at any time. I just don't want this to become any more of a spam thread in the meantime.

 

[Cullen]

Fair enough. I wouldn't want you to neglect your schoolwork. That's my job.

Um... Not to be too much of a wise guy, but why is neglecting Zaphod's homework your job?

(And the justified beating begins in 3... 2... 1... GAK!!)

I've been working on a few things bit by bit, nothing too exciting. If you have any smaller points to make in response to anything I've posted, feel free to post at any time. I just don't want this to become any more of a spam thread in the meantime.

To make up for my insolence, I have this to add.

I've been considering a Batman treatment, as I mentioned, and I found myself adding characters. Specifically, I added Catwoman to the mix. Nothing major, mind you, but she's there.

It occured to me that Catwoman really doesn't need a seperate film of her own. She's doesn't pose the same level of threat that, say, the Penguin would. She doesn't have the fascinating psychosis that the Joker has. She doesn't have the pathos that Mr. Freeze has. She doesn't have the physical threat that Killer Croc posesses. And so forth.

Instead, she works best as an informant. I was thumbing through what little I have of "The Long Halloween" and it has a scene where she reveals to Batman the location of Falcone's little stash of cash. Her reasons are, of course, personal in nature; she wants the crime boss to focus his attention on someone other than her.

Which would be, in a way, how I would handle her. After all, how else can a girl make an "honest" living with such a determined adversary? By keeping her ears open, she can find threats greater than herself. So while the Batman is off stopping a gang war on the southside, she can be keeping herself busy up north. And so on.

Her presence eliminates the so-called need for a love interest. It also does cause a bit of a moral dilemmafor Batman, as there is no way on this Earth he'd be fooled.

Anyways, that's where my thoughts were at...

 

[Zev]

Well, you do kinda need a love interest, otherwise people are gonna start wondering what Batman and Robin are up to in all those cold, lonely nights in the Batcave.

Kidding! Kidding! Geez, one joke and people look at you like you're Wertham!

Anyway, just stopping by to say I have started a thread entirely devoted to lesbian subtext. Which, frankly, I'm surprised no one did sooner.

Moving on to matters of actual on-topic-ish-ness, I'd say Catwoman would work best as a supporting cast member/love interest. She can't carry a whole movie, but she'd be good for a romantic subplot. Because while yeah, sure, you could say "Batman will never have any emotional entanglements, ever!"... where's the fun in that?

But who do you have for villains in your dream-franchise, Herr? I know you've got Penguin for the first one and maybe Joker for a sequel, but who else could carry a film?

 

[lujho]

Lujho:

If I didn't alienate you with my comments earlier, it would be cool if you could post some of those manips you made of a faithful Batman costume all those months ago. I have several saved on my computer but have trouble hosting them.

Also, just to check, you didn't physically make any of those costumes, did you? I think I remember those were manips of some fan-made film. Either way, you're very talented at both drawing images from scratch as well as altering live-action images.

Here's an album with all the ones I've done - it's easier than posting them all - the once you're talking about are towards the later pages:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v217/lujho/MyDesigns/

And no, I haven't made any of these physically.

I'll post a couple here though (the first 2 are the same, one's a bit lighter to see the detail):

About what you said about seams... I think that depending on the design, they can contribute to an organic look where Batman looks like he *might* be a creature. Firstly, seams wouldn't neccessarily be anywhere near as noticeable as the are on my drawings (a thick black line) or manips. In reality, they'd be fairly subtle, and if they corressponded loosely to the "muscle lines" that you usually see drawn on a comic image of Batman, they could help re-create that look. I think if done in a certain way, they'd kind of subtley "help" your eyes see muscle definition, without something overty like fully airbrushed musculature (which I don't think looks too good - Spider-Man gets away with it because the texture of the suit is so complex).

It's hard to know exactly how this stuff could/would look in reality but in my designs, where you see a lot of lines, it's to show the structure and detail of the suit, whereas in reality, on film, you'd get something very much closer to just blocks of black and grey - all those details would be *there*, and they'd add needed detail to the surface of the suit... but it wouldn't look like a guy with lines all over him.

 

[Herr Logan]

Um... Not to be too much of a wise guy, but why is neglecting Zaphod's homework your job?

(And the justified beating begins in 3... 2... 1... GAK!!)

"Justified" is the correct term, but I'm not giving it to you now. You're gonna sit there and wait for it. It'll hang over you for God knows how long, and you'll be expecting it every moment, wondering if it will ever be okay to let your guard down and relax. The hours of anxiety will turn into days, which will turn into weeks, which will... ah, screw it, I ain't got that kinda patience!

*takes a full-force swing at Cullen's head with a long plank of wood*

That'll learn ya!

To make up for my insolence, I have this to add.

I've been considering a Batman treatment, as I mentioned, and I found myself adding characters. Specifically, I added Catwoman to the mix. Nothing major, mind you, but she's there.

It occured to me that Catwoman really doesn't need a seperate film of her own. She's doesn't pose the same level of threat that, say, the Penguin would. She doesn't have the fascinating psychosis that the Joker has. She doesn't have the pathos that Mr. Freeze has. She doesn't have the physical threat that Killer Croc posesses. And so forth.


Instead, she works best as an informant. I was thumbing through what little I have of "The Long Halloween" and it has a scene where she reveals to Batman the location of Falcone's little stash of cash. Her reasons are, of course, personal in nature; she wants the crime boss to focus his attention on someone other than her.

Which would be, in a way, how I would handle her. After all, how else can a girl make an "honest" living with such a determined adversary? By keeping her ears open, she can find threats greater than herself. So while the Batman is off stopping a gang war on the southside, she can be keeping herself busy up north. And so on.

Her presence eliminates the so-called need for a love interest. It also does cause a bit of a moral dilemmafor Batman, as there is no way on this Earth he'd be fooled.

Anyways, that's where my thoughts were at...

You're not honestly suggesting that Killer Croc get his own movie, are you? Catwoman definitely deserves it more. In any case, I agree and would not make Catwoman the #1 villain in any Batman movie, but she could play a very significant part and I already mentioned that I would devote a good deal of of screen time to her in a second film. She ties into the mob-busting crime plot and is a great vehicle for the development of the Batman, specifically his boundaries on morality and his desire or lack thereof for social normalcy or at least companionship.

I thought at first that her presence could well eliminate the need for a love interest, but as I said before, I would personally want her to be a real "love interest." Not a mushy-gushy one, but a focused study of the appeal she holds for the Batman, the appeal he holds for her, and what the Batman will or won't sacrifice for companionship (and no, I'm absolutely not suggesting he'd ever consider giving up Batman for someone like Selina Kyle-- not in in a good Batman movie, God dammit-- I'm talking about whether he can look the other way when she breaks the law, at least, and whether he can trust her, at most). This is all stuff that has been done in the comics and the cartoon series, and I think it could work well on-screen as a plot that very much ties into the real business at hand, which is the Batman making war on crime. I'd have her be an informant but also a tactical ally in a few scenes, and her reasons for taking on the Falcone mob will be both selfish and noble, since she has a certain level of nobility and all nobility is inherently selfish.

Thanks a lot for posting your thoughts on this, Cullen.

 

[Cullen]

On Killer Croc... Not exactly. I was using him as an example, nothing more.

I did considered him as a possibilty. And he could work. Maybe. Damned if I could figure on a way of doing this, though. On this, we've got so many better choices out there.

Like Killer Moth. (Joking.)

 

[Herr Logan]

Well, you do kinda need a love interest, otherwise people are gonna start wondering what Batman and Robin are up to in all those cold, lonely nights in the Batcave.

Kidding! Kidding! Geez, one joke and people look at you like you're Wertham!

Anyway, just stopping by to say I have started a thread entirely devoted to lesbian subtext. Which, frankly, I'm surprised no one did sooner.

Moving on to matters of actual on-topic-ish-ness, I'd say Catwoman would work best as a supporting cast member/love interest. She can't carry a whole movie, but she'd be good for a romantic subplot. Because while yeah, sure, you could say "Batman will never have any emotional entanglements, ever!"... where's the fun in that?

But who do you have for villains in your dream-franchise, Herr? I know you've got Penguin for the first one and maybe Joker for a sequel, but who else could carry a film?

Congrats on your new thread, you insolent little troublemaker.


I certainly won't say that the Batman would never have emotional entaglements, but I personally wouldn't want to waste screen time on civilian love interests that will learn the Batman's secret or disappear, or stick around for future movies to act as a lure for viewers who'd rather voyeuristicically (I say this broadly in regard to mundane romance plots in fiction, where real people watch representations of "real people" doing "normal" stuff that they could conceivably experience themselves; you can't really say that about superheroes actually being superheroes, or even cop shows, for most people anyway) watch angst between the hunky hero and his obligatory female co-star who's there only to be a hostage and possibly some eye candy.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't feature a civilian love interest ever, but certainly not every film and not two in a row. Batman 1, no love interest; Batman 2, Catwoman; Batman 3, no love interest; Batman 4... hell if I know, he's gonna be busy training Robin (and shut up about the subtext there, because that's not what I meant... the more the Batman has to do for his mission, the less time he has for Vicki Vales and Meridian Chases) and dealing with more organized crime and supervillains. I'd probably go with Silver St. Cloud and no others. I'm seriously not down with superfluous love interests, and only when it's a truly powerful element in the mythos would I bother with it.

Okay, my vague idea for villain breakdowns and possibly some notes on the plots:

Batman 1
Carmine Falcone, GCPD, Penguin.
I already laid out what's going on there earlier.

Batman 2
Joker, warring mob factions, ambiguity regarding Catwoman as friend or foe.
I've seen some ideas for sequels to 'Begins' where the Joker is a hitman or someone who could be mistaken for a hitman. Uh uh. No freakin' way. The Joker will show up as a solo act in the beginning and as the Maroni Family splits off from the Falcones and go to war, the Joker will hit them both, recruiting whoever is smart enough to take his offer of employment and try to become the top dog in Gotham. That doesn't mean he'll be just a mundane mob boss type, he'll still be as whacky and grimly funny as he's supposed to be in whatever he does. No back-alley slasher crap, no straight-up gangster crap, no revisionist bull$hit. The Joker is versatile and can play both lone wolf and psychotic leader of scared men.
Catwoman would be, despite opposing policies on stealing, helping the Batman try to keep the mob war under control and ultimately leave them in a prosecutable position. Vicous though she is, Catwoman isn't a killer, so she's down with the Batman's goal of using the law against the criminals.
By the end of the film, Harvey Dent will be scarred in the courtroom by acid and be on his way to becoming Two-Face by the next film. Again, as I said earlier in the thread, I would absolutely not have the Joker have anything to do with Harvey's disfigurement, but as I described earlier, I would love it if he could be escorted down the hall at the courthouse right when it happens and bear witness to Harvey screaming in pain and horror when extra guards open the doors and rush in. Having the Joker doing his maniacal laugh (which has to be on par with Mark Hamill's, or there's no point in even trying) at this moment in the film would be great.
I don't know of any other villains I'd feature here, but I'd have no problem with introducing Edward Nigma as a consultant for one of the mob factions (Zaphod wrote some good ideas for that earlier). When everyone gets slapped with indictments and the mob structure is broken, perhaps he'll begin to lead his own band of criminals and feature prominently in a future film.

Batman 3:
Two Face, possibly the Riddler, not sure what else is happening. Possibly Robin is introduced here.
I think it's possible to actually feature the same basic villain and hero set-up from 'Batman Forever,' without it being bad at all. The Riddler doesn't need to team up with Two-Face, but they could co-exist and not get in each other's way, or there could be tension. Either way, they'd be much more faithful to the comics, especially Two-Face.
Robin would be in his mid-teens (not over 21 like in 'Forever,' because I don't think full-grown adults need to be adopted by rich philanthropists, no matter how immature they are) and it would be Tony Zucco (who could appear in earlier films) who has his parents murdered in the first degree, not Two-Face in the heat of the moment. Robin would probably not be allowed near Two-Face, at least not in this film. After careful deliberation, Batman would let him be Robin because he's a very physically impressive kid with a mad-on who wants revenge, and he'd be safer and more productive as a crime-fighter with a non-lethal code and proper training. Robin would be more light-hearted than the Batman, essentially because the Batman gives him hope and a purpose, whereas being left to his own grief would have turned him cold. In turn, he helps keep the Batman composed during a reign of terror perpetrated by someone who used to be one of the Batman's only friends, by giving the Batman a new purpose ("sub-purpose"?) in training an ally and helping a grieving orphan.
The Riddler and his antics could be a good vehicle through which Robin shows he's more than just muscle and grace, but has a sharp mind and could make a great detective with enough practice. This version of Dick Grayson will not be merely Tim Drake with a different name, as he will be a bit grimmer than Drake, more physically powerful (because he was a talented aerialist for many years before the Batman further honed him into a warrior) and he won't be a computer genius. He'll be good with computers, but not the prodigy Drake was. Dick has his own strengths that make him valuable, and while he isn't as cold and miserable as the Batman, he's much more like him, what with the orphanhood and all.
I really do like Tim better than Dick as Robin, but I'm not willing to make blatant changes to that extent just to satisfy my own preferences when I've made it clear I endorse a certain level of faithfulness. So no making Dick 18 or just shy of 18 (because it's barely worth having him adopted if that's the case, and this movie will span several months), no skipping straight to the Nightwing identity, no making his costume like Nightwing's or straight-up black and red instead of green and red (although yes, it will be a bit darker in shade than the comics version and it will be based on Tim Drake's costume, which isn't far removed at all). If Robin seems like a silly persona, then he'll just have to prove his worth, and he damn well could.
I've even visualized scenes where the Batman questions his color scheme and choice of codename. Batman says that "Robin" and the image of the namesake doesn't seem like it strikes a sufficient level of fear in the hearts of criminals. Robin says, "Let me go on patrol for a few weeks, and it will." Batman will have to even smile at that, because he knows the kid really means it. Furthermore, one of the arguments the Batman will use to try and dissuade Dick from becoming a crime fighter at all will be that these men will not show restraint just because he's young. Dick will say, "But they will underestimate me, and that's all the leeway I need." Sure enough, gangsters will scorn him with taunts like "Boy Wonder" and "Bird-boy" and so forth, but by the end of the movie, Robin will indeed be a name to be feared by the wicked.
"Word is, the Bat's bulletproof, or he goes all 'immaterial' when you shoot him, or some craziness like that. You don't think this Robin kid is like that, do you? What's the word on that?"
"There ain't no word on how he takes a cap. All I keep hearin' is that whole crews with everything from Glocks to automatics throw shots at him every damn night and nobody ever draws a bead 'cause he's faster than bullets. Ain't neither one o' those freaks human. I don't care what the job is, I see a boy in a cape, I'm gone."


I don't have any distinct plot plans beyond this, but I'd definitely want to see Scarface (but not in the same movie as Two-Face, since their respective disassociative disorders get very confusing when discussed in the same episode or movie) and I want to see Mr. Freeze as well. I suppose Freeze is more of an action villain and stand-alone pathos villain (he's become a favorite go-to guy in recent comics for all kinds of gangsters and villains, but in a first appearance, I'd prefer he go it alone), so maybe "primary villain" isn't a good title for him in a movie where three hours of Batty goodness must be filled, but he'd be great in live action.

R'as Al Ghul is a good choice as well, done faithfully. I'd very much like to see Bane done right as well. One of the most intelligent and determined of the Batman's foes, and they chose to butcher him for some cheap laughs. Disgusting.

Villains I currently have no interest in putting in a movie, faithful or otherwise:
Poison Ivy, Clayface, Man-Bat, Mad Hatter. This has nothing to do with "realism" or whatever, but I just don't see good plotlines for them, at least not now.

 

[Herr Logan]

Here's an album with all the ones I've done - it's easier than posting them all - the once you're talking about are towards the later pages:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v217/lujho/MyDesigns/

And no, I haven't made any of these physically.

I'll post a couple here though (the first 2 are the same, one's a bit lighter to see the detail):


About what you said about seams... I think that depending on the design, they can contribute to an organic look where Batman looks like he *might* be a creature. Firstly, seams wouldn't neccessarily be anywhere near as noticeable as the are on my drawings (a thick black line) or manips. In reality, they'd be fairly subtle, and if they corressponded loosely to the "muscle lines" that you usually see drawn on a comic image of Batman, they could help re-create that look. I think if done in a certain way, they'd kind of subtley "help" your eyes see muscle definition, without something overty like fully airbrushed musculature (which I don't think looks too good - Spider-Man gets away with it because the texture of the suit is so complex).

It's hard to know exactly how this stuff could/would look in reality but in my designs, where you see a lot of lines, it's to show the structure and detail of the suit, whereas in reality, on film, you'd get something very much closer to just blocks of black and grey - all those details would be *there*, and they'd add needed detail to the surface of the suit... but it wouldn't look like a guy with lines all over him.

That's a very good point about the seams/lines, Lujho, and thanks so much for posting those. They really look great.


After looking through your Photobucket page, I think my ideal combination would be this body (specifically for the belt design, gloves, and trunks)--

With the head from this one (I wouldn't want the rest of the 'Begins' gear)--

Possibly with the coloring and bodysuit line design from this--

I suppose that essentially would make it picture #3 with the gloves, belt and trunks of #1.

I don't suppose you've done any of these manips using the 'Batman Returns' cowl? My ideal cowl is that one with lenses.

One note about your cape design:
The bottom of the zipper would have to be several inches higher for that cape to easily be thrown back over the shoulders and stay there.

Thanks again, Lujho.

 

[Zaphod]

Batman 1
Carmine Falcone, GCPD, Penguin.
I already laid out what's going on there earlier.

Batman 2
Joker, warring mob factions, ambiguity regarding Catwoman as friend or foe.
I've seen some ideas for sequels to 'Begins' where the Joker is a hitman or someone who could be mistaken for a hitman. Uh uh. No freakin' way. The Joker will show up as a solo act in the beginning and as the Maroni Family splits off from the Falcones and go to war, the Joker will hit them both, recruiting whoever is smart enough to take his offer of employment and try to become the top dog in Gotham. That doesn't mean he'll be just a mundane mob boss type, he'll still be as whacky and grimly funny as he's supposed to be in whatever he does. No back-alley slasher crap, no straight-up gangster crap, no revisionist bull$hit. The Joker is versatile and can play both lone wolf and psychotic leader of scared men.
Catwoman would be, despite opposing policies on stealing, helping the Batman try to keep the mob war under control and ultimately leave them in a prosecutable position. Vicous though she is, Catwoman isn't a killer, so she's down with the Batman's goal of using the law against the criminals.
By the end of the film, Harvey Dent will be scarred in the courtroom by acid and be on his way to becoming Two-Face by the next film. Again, as I said earlier in the thread, I would absolutely not have the Joker have anything to do with Harvey's disfigurement, but as I described earlier, I would love it if he could be escorted down the hall at the courthouse right when it happens and bear witness to Harvey screaming in pain and horror when extra guards open the doors and rush in. Having the Joker doing his maniacal laugh (which has to be on par with Mark Hamill's, or there's no point in even trying) at this moment in the film would be great.
I don't know of any other villains I'd feature here, but I'd have no problem with introducing Edward Nigma as a consultant for one of the mob factions (Zaphod wrote some good ideas for that earlier). When everyone gets slapped with indictments and the mob structure is broken, perhaps he'll begin to lead his own band of criminals and feature prominently in a future film.

Batman 3:
Two Face, possibly the Riddler, not sure what else is happening. Possibly Robin is introduced here.
I think it's possible to actually feature the same basic villain and hero set-up from 'Batman Forever,' without it being bad at all. The Riddler doesn't need to team up with Two-Face, but they could co-exist and not get in each other's way, or there could be tension. Either way, they'd be much more faithful to the comics, especially Two-Face.
Robin would be in his mid-teens (not over 21 like in 'Forever,' because I don't think full-grown adults need to be adopted by rich philanthropists, no matter how immature they are) and it would be Tony Zucco (who could appear in earlier films) who has his parents murdered in the first degree, not Two-Face in the heat of the moment. Robin would probably not be allowed near Two-Face, at least not in this film. After careful deliberation, Batman would let him be Robin because he's a very physically impressive kid with a mad-on who wants revenge, and he'd be safer and more productive as a crime-fighter with a non-lethal code and proper training. Robin would be more light-hearted than the Batman, essentially because the Batman gives him hope and a purpose, whereas being left to his own grief would have turned him cold. In turn, he helps keep the Batman composed during a reign of terror perpetrated by someone who used to be one of the Batman's only friends, by giving the Batman a new purpose ("sub-purpose"?) in training an ally and helping a grieving orphan.
The Riddler and his antics could be a good vehicle through which Robin shows he's more than just muscle and grace, but has a sharp mind and could make a great detective with enough practice. This version of Dick Grayson will not be merely Tim Drake with a different name, as he will be a bit grimmer than Drake, more physically powerful (because he was a talented aerialist for many years before the Batman further honed him into a warrior) and he won't be a computer genius. He'll be good with computers, but not the prodigy Drake was. Dick has his own strengths that make him valuable, and while he isn't as cold and miserable as the Batman, he's much more like him, what with the orphanhood and all.
I really do like Tim better than Dick as Robin, but I'm not willing to make blatant changes to that extent just to satisfy my own preferences when I've made it clear I endorse a certain level of faithfulness. So no making Dick 18 or just shy of 18 (because it's barely worth having him adopted if that's the case, and this movie will span several months), no skipping straight to the Nightwing identity, no making his costume like Nightwing's or straight-up black and red instead of green and red (although yes, it will be a bit darker in shade than the comics version and it will be based on Tim Drake's costume, which isn't far removed at all). If Robin seems like a silly persona, then he'll just have to prove his worth, and he damn well could.
I've even visualized scenes where the Batman questions his color scheme and choice of codename. Batman says that "Robin" and the image of the namesake doesn't seem like it strikes a sufficient level of fear in the hearts of criminals. Robin says, "Let me go on patrol for a few weeks, and it will." Batman will have to even smile at that, because he knows the kid really means it. Furthermore, one of the arguments the Batman will use to try and dissuade Dick from becoming a crime fighter at all will be that these men will not show restraint just because he's young. Dick will say, "But they will underestimate me, and that's all the leeway I need." Sure enough, gangsters will scorn him with taunts like "Boy Wonder" and "Bird-boy" and so forth, but by the end of the movie, Robin will indeed be a name to be feared by the wicked.
"Word is, the Bat's bulletproof, or he goes all 'immaterial' when you shoot him, or some craziness like that. You don't think this Robin kid is like that, do you? What's the word on that?"
"There ain't no word on how he takes a cap. All I keep hearin' is that whole crews with everything from Glocks to automatics throw shots at him every damn night and nobody ever draws a bead 'cause he's faster than bullets. Ain't neither one o' those freaks human. I don't care what the job is, I see a boy in a cape, I'm gone."


I don't have any distinct plot plans beyond this, but I'd definitely want to see Scarface (but not in the same movie as Two-Face, since their respective disassociative disorders get very confusing when discussed in the same episode or movie) and I want to see Mr. Freeze as well. I suppose Freeze is more of an action villain and stand-alone pathos villain (he's become a favorite go-to guy in recent comics for all kinds of gangsters and villains, but in a first appearance, I'd prefer he go it alone), so maybe "primary villain" isn't a good title for him in a movie where three hours of Batty goodness must be filled, but he'd be great in live action.

R'as Al Ghul is a good choice as well, done faithfully. I'd very much like to see Bane done right as well. One of the most intelligent and determined of the Batman's foes, and they chose to butcher him for some cheap laughs. Disgusting.

Villains I currently have no interest in putting in a movie, faithful or otherwise:
Poison Ivy, Clayface, Man-Bat, Mad Hatter. This has nothing to do with "realism" or whatever, but I just don't see good plotlines for them, at least not now.

The Riddler needs to be in a movie someway's down the line. After his first appearence, Batman would have him exposed and ousted from playing right-hand man to any mobboss, and he would show up in the next movie as persona non grata. The way I figure it, even though his initial run in the third movie would have him seeing to business for one party imparticular, he would secretly be concocting some machinations behind the scenes, in plan's to double, heck, even "tripple-cross"! his boss and ascertain power for himself (the guy's a genius, and would be more than capable and arrogant of such an attempt)! And it would be Batman who exposes his plot not just to the authorities, but so a good amount of the criminal element know aswell. Such dissfavour from his former body of work would force Nygma outside the criminal element who now want his blood, so all he has left to do is obsess over solving the identity of Batman for when he shows up next.

My idea for Two-Face would be to have him go after the particular crime-boss of that movie, dishing out his own breed of vigilante carnage, leaving a trail of bodies in his wake, with Batman having to beat it to his every movie in order or preserving his own brand of justice. After the scarring, any barriers formally protecting Dent's mindset of justice have since been broken down, and all the rage, frustration and anger that's been suppressed in the second-movie, has surfaced in a big way. He would be tredding ice in the second movie, trusting in the Batman to fight crime, forsaking his original intentions of working through the courts, and then with the Two Face persona in control, Dent forsakes any sense of moral code prohibiting him from giving into his primal-instincts of dishing out 'corporate punishment' the Two-Face way. I also envision a hostage-situation involving Two Face, the GCPD and Batman, with Batman pitting psychology as the weapon of choice against Harvey. I'm not sure who the hostage would be, not Robin thats for sure, although perhaps he would play some part in the hostage-situation. It would need to be someone of a degree of importance. Maroni seem's like a good enough choice, thats if you were planning to feature him in as a part of the Two Face story past the second movie?

One villain you didn't mention was Scarecrow, who I'd still quite like to see in some form.

Thoughts?

 

[Herr Logan]

The Riddler needs to be in a movie someway's down the line. After his first appearence, Batman would have him exposed and ousted from playing right-hand man to any mobboss, and he would show up in the next movie as persona non grata. The way I figure it, even though his initial run in the third movie would have him seeing to business for one party imparticular, he would secretly be concocting some machinations behind the scenes, in plan's to double, heck, even "tripple-cross"! his boss and ascertain power for himself (the guy's a genius, and would be more than capable and arrogant of such an attempt)! And it would be Batman who exposes his plot not just to the authorities, but so a good amount of the criminal element know aswell. Such dissfavour from his former body of work would force Nygma outside the criminal element who now want his blood, so all he has left to do is obsess over solving the identity of Batman for when he shows up next.

I had envisioned that the Batman didn't really seen Nigma as much of a threat-- although he would know his name (and address, 'cuz he's the Goddamn Batman) from his investigations into the mobs-- until the warring crime familues are crippled and Nigma picks up a handful of men to set out on his own. You've got good ideas on this, though.

I personally did not want the Riddler to become obsessed with the Batman until the Dark Knight (possibly with the help of Robin) solved some of his clues aimed at the GCPD in connection with his crimes. It's then that he realizes that the Batman isn't just a shadowy demonic figure out to terrorize the wicked. He's not inhuman at all, but a man with a formidable mind who can give the Riddler the challenge he needs. Riddler is very similar to the Joker in this way, as they both deliberately try to get the Batman's attention and keep the game going, except the Riddler sees it like a game of chess (but with word problems, however that would work) and the Joker sees it like two performance artists competing on the same stage.

While I don't want the Riddler to be shown as the same kind of tragic figure that Two-Face is, I'd want to feature the root of Nigma's compulsion to leave clues. In the current comic series "Justice," the Batman's files on Riddler tell that Nigma cheated on something in school or lied about something and his father punished him severely for it, instilling in him a compulsion to tell the truth, even in an indirect manner. While the Riddler is mostly calm and composed in his behavior, I want him to end up at Arkham Asylum instead of a regular prison. This is obviously faithful to the comics, but I emphasize this to say that he should be a pathological nutcase, not a typical gangster at all. I would keep the "double- or triple-crossed" thing, though, but I'm ambivalent as to whether that earns him a bad reputation or not, considering he's probably not going to offer to work for anyone else as an underling again.

My idea for Two-Face would be to have him go after the particular crime-boss of that movie, dishing out his own breed of vigilante carnage, leaving a trail of bodies in his wake, with Batman having to beat it to his every movie in order or preserving his own brand of justice. After the scarring, any barriers formally protecting Dent's mindset of justice have since been broken down, and all the rage, frustration and anger that's been suppressed in the second-movie, has surfaced in a big way. He would be tredding ice in the second movie, trusting in the Batman to fight crime, forsaking his original intentions of working through the courts, and then with the Two Face persona in control, Dent forsakes any sense of moral code prohibiting him from giving into his primal-instincts of dishing out 'corporate punishment' the Two-Face way. I also envision a hostage-situation involving Two Face, the GCPD and Batman, with Batman pitting psychology as the weapon of choice against Harvey. I'm not sure who the hostage would be, not Robin thats for sure, although perhaps he would play some part in the hostage-situation. It would need to be someone of a degree of importance. Maroni seem's like a good enough choice, thats if you were planning to feature him in as a part of the Two Face story past the second movie?

Okay, for a second there I thought you wanted Two-Face to abandon the idea of justice, but you're just talking about tactics. Yes, I do want him to act as a vigilante in some ways, but also a straight-up criminal. I'd like him to come off like a midway point between the Batman and the Joker in terms of ideology-- split between order and chaos, justice and terror-- with the deciding factor being his belief in fate as the only reliable guide in life. Also, he should stick with the gimmick of hitting establishments with words like "two," "gemini," "twin," etc. and keep his obession with the very concept of duality intact. Two-Face's flight patterns are much more predictable than the Joker's, but the coin makes it a toss-up (heh heh) whether he'll actually hit any of these places, and in what order. I figure he'll be hitting Maroni's fronts in addition to all the gimmick-related targets for robberies.

I think maybe the big face-off (I'm not even trying, it just keeps happening!) between the Batman and Two-Face towards the end could be during a trial-- the trial of Sal Maroni. Two-Face and his goons will break into Blackgate prison and kidnap Maroni so Two-Face can prosecute him personally, maybe at a building that used to be a courthouse but is now condemned or something. The Batman will track him down and intervene, and that's where the big final fight will occur.

Here's what I see for that right now:
The Batman is caught before he makes a successful insertion into the building and Two-Face comes out to face him while guns are pointed right at the Batman and Maroni. Two-Face says that if he makes a move, he'll have Maroni killed right off. The Batman says that Maroni needs a defense counsel, and although Two-Face wasn't going to bother with that (who else but Maroni was going to point it out, anyway?) now he feels it's only honorable to concede that. He says the Batman can act as counsel, but he has to check all his weapons and gadgets at the door, specifically saying that the last time he went to trial things went wrong because someone brought something into the courtroom that shouldn't be there. The Batman hands over his utility belt. One of Two-Face's "bailiffs" (he'll be using legal and court-related terms all through this) reach for the mask to remove it and Two-Face slaps the hand away, yelling "he has a 'reasonable expectation of privacy,' and you don't have a warrant" or something like that (obviously the logic is completely screwed up and the only thing he's being consistent with is the terminology, not actually following correct procedure). The goon tries to placate Two-Face and show respect for his coin, saying they should ask the coin for a warrant. Two-Face flips it and the warrant is denied, the mask stays on. As they go back into the courthouse, Two-Face turns back around abruptly and growls that they better not mess with the utility belt because "that's tampering with evidence." The other way to play that is to have a goon suggest they check the belt before they flip the coin for the "warrant," and when the coin denies them a warrant, Two-Face says, "I will not have my case thrown out because some screw-up unlawfully searched through closed containers without a warrant during an inventory procedure! How am I supposed to get good convictions if the officers don't respect the law?!" Again, that makes no sense, since the Batman isn't technically being arrested or supposed to be the one on trial in Two-Face's twisted court drama, but this shows that Harvey is trying to reign in his dark side and at least trying to keep consistent with the law, even if the other half doesn't give a damn about due process. Anyway, the Batman tries his best to play by Two-Face's twisted modified procedure and argues as to why Two-Face should not murder Maroni, trying to appeal to his belief in the law and his desire to rise above the criminal element. Two-Face will eventually "clear the court," asking his goons to wait outside and stand guard, so it's just himself, the Batman, and the defendant. Two-Face attacks the Batman just with his bare hands and a full-on fight breaks out. Two-Face is about as big as the Batman, and while he doesn't have any of the hardcore training that the Batman does, he's in good shape and extremely stong because of his insanity. Eventually Two-Face decides to just shoot Maroni, and only the Batman's suggestion that he ask the coin first stops him from doing just that right away. As he flips the coin in the air, the Batman flips another silver dollar that was hidden in his glove straight at the falling coin, knocking it out of the air and across the courtroom. Two-Face runs over there to see which coin is his and how it landed, and the Batman flips another coin onto the others and keeps doing it again and again, one at a time, while Two-Face tells him to stop doing that and starts screaming and ranting about how he needs his coin. The Batman uses the communication assembly in his cowl to alert the police where they are and how many guards are there. He walks over to Two-Face, who's on his hands and knees checking the coins, and tells him he can turn himself in or be taken. Two-Face pulls his gun again and the Batman kicks it out of his hand. He grabs Two-Face by his suit jacket, slams him against the wall and says that everyone is culpable for their own actions, and since fate and chance can't be held accountable, they don't get to hand in a verdict. Harvey needs help, and he's getting it, because it's what the system demands and the man the Batman knew believed in the system. Two-Face once again says that everything that happens is meant to happen and nothing can change fate. The Batman says that if that's true, then "this was meant to happen" and he knocks him out with a punch to the head. Maroni, scared out of his mind, thanks the Batman for saving him, and the Batman responds by saying "It was the right thing to do. Just like this," and he hits him hard enough to send him flying a few yards and land unconscious.

While all that is happening, Robin disobeyed orders to stay home that night and he takes out all the armed thugs guarding the courthouse. The Batman walks out of the courthouse dragging both Maroni's and Two-Face's unconscious bodies and sees Robin standing amid several unconscious or tied-up thugs, and the police are just arriving.

Thoughts?

One villain you didn't mention was Scarecrow, who I'd still quite like to see in some form.

Thoughts?

Ah, I did forget him. How strange, because I would like to see the Scarecrow. Good catch.

By the way, what do you think of what I said before about Catwoman, and last night about Robin?