Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

On the Scarecrow:

It would be good to get some mention of Crane's past, as a child as well as an adult. Naturally, the attention would be on him being bullied and ridiculed (by classmates and colleagues) and his obsession with fear. Perhaps even a reference to the murder he committed in high school. I know what you posted was just an overview, so you've probably given attention to something along those lines already. I do like the fact that you've chosen to embrace the comics.

Oh yes, the comics are the life blood of the mythos, even though there have been some great non-comics material for the Batman.

I would want to go with brief flashbacks for Crane's childhood experiences with bullying. Nothing too intrusive, and probably something discolored and overlaid on the image of his masked face during a moment of hateful contemplation before committing a crime, or facing the Batman. I suppose the Scarecrow could consider the Batman a bully, although we know this is irrational since... well... Scarecrow started it!!

Remind me again, what murder did Crane commit in high school?

I imagine the relationship between Scarecrow and Penguin to be tenuous; a sort of means to an end. Neither is exactly revered by the underworld. They exhibit a symbiotic relationship. Crane gets the use of goons to further his agenda and perhaps Cobblepot seeks to gain a little clout to garner 'respect' amongst Gotham's Mafioso. Their uneasy alliance could also be a tool that Batman uses to his advantage. Maybe a 'divide and conquer' scenario after he pieces together their association. I don't know how you want to play it, but I felt like blabbing.

I originally did not plan on having a real relationship between the Scarecrow and the Penguin. My original concept for a first movie (from which I've since deviated to exclude Scarecrow) had the Penguin as a criminal that, while not respected by crime families like the Falcones or Maronis, had his finger on the pulse of the underworld and could impart information, should someone make him the right offer (the "right offer" being a large fist wrapped in Kevlar with pouches of finely ground lead shot reinforcing the knuckles). The Batman would hear of a threat given by the Scarecrow against Gotham City (poisoning the water supply or something, but he doesn't specifically say it in his threat, since he's not as competent as the Joker and can't just tell everyone what he's doing with impunity) and would go to the Penguin for information. Penguin is packing his things to leave the city, proving to the Batman right away that he knows something, and he uses new tactics (adapted from the last time he encountered the Penguin and lost) hits him up for information (literally, of course). The Penguin doesn't have to know Crane personally to know what he's planning, since he's got an information network that can tap into Scarecrow's own mob of thugs. He's the major information broker in the Gotham underworld, and that's why the Batman allows him to stay free as long as he keeps to gambling and a nightclub or two and stays out of drugs, weapons and violent crime for good (yeah, that's likely), and he's supposed to provide the Batman with information whenever he demands it from that point forward. That was my original plan, anyway. If the Scarecrow shows up in a future movie, the same basic concept would work, except the Penguin's arrangment with the Batman would already have been in place a long time beforehand.

I like how you've emphasized the crippling aspect of the fear toxin. In Begins, we did get to see its effect, but it was limited to brief imagery. Let's see the scenarios, hear the voices and get behind what truly (and literally) paralyzes someone with fear. This setup strengthens the audience's perception of Bruce's inner strength when he recovers from the toxin way ahead of schedule, as you alluded to.

Exactly.

Excellent quotes by Batman toward the end.

Thanks.

Rest assured, I will send over a link if/when I lose my patience. I've been able to remain calm so far and be courteous in pointing out why some people are just WRONG. Although, a few of us had to give attention to someone who envisioned The Joker as "completely and erotically obsessed" with Batman (because it's 'creepy'). I swear, if I could reach through this screen sometimes...

There doesn't need to be any damn "erotic obsession" for the Joker. Hell, there shouldn't even be a "complete obsession" with the Batman for Joker. The Joker still has a broader stage to play on, although he'll take a shine to the Batman right away (not erotically) and will become more and more fixated on him as they continue to cross paths.

If anyone should be obsessed solely with the Batman, it should be the Riddler, since he's got basically one big trick, and the Batman seems to be the only person who can play his game (and is willing to, since I'm sure the Joker, Penguin, etc. could probably match wits, but they're stone killers and the Riddler would like a few chances to improve his game before going to his final reward).

Anyway, the erotic thing is completely unnecessary. The Joker has rarely showed any kind of real sexuality. Even with Harley Quinn around, and other females who have become infatuated with them. He's very charismatic when he wants to be (if he shows up a second time in the movie series, Dr. Harleen Quinzel's backstory will be shown briefly and she'll be his #1 henchperson), but he usually rejects advances and abuses those who show interest. Still, he's a narcissist. It's a pretty fecked up way to live, demanding that he not be ignored but refusing to reward people who lavish attention on him, but that's our Joker.
I want to emphasize the Joker's penchant for showmanship, and have that be the aspect of the Batman that really dazzles the Joker. Yes, he could be seen as a "crazed fan" of sorts at times, but his unpredictable and chaotic nature allows him to marvel at the Batman's theatrics one minute and deride his "frivolous" crusade for justice the next. I want the Joker to be basically just like the one from the Animated Universe (Mark Hammil), but also with that extra layer where he's at once jealous and in awe of the Batman's flair and style. Whereas the Joker in Tim Burtons 'BATMAN' fancied himself an artist who created "still life" pieces [insert tasteless joke about absence of life here], my version of the Joker would be all about performance art. He wouldn't be quite as pretensious as Nicholson's Joker, but he'd still be an egomaniacal, flamboyant attention ****e who does his best to put on a show worth dying for. It'll be colorful, hammy, absurd and the "realism" junkies who think that the Joker is anything like Jack the Ripper or Hannibal Lecter will hate it. That's the Batman universe, b!tches. That's the real Joker.

 

[Herr Logan]

I had some ideas on this myself:

While I agree that Crane's childhood and past need to be brought up somehow in his subsequent movie, I would rather avoid showing these scenario's through flashbacks. It seems like the most obvious route to go, but it runs the risk of burdening the movie with too many seperate back-storys to characters, especially villain characters. This is not to say I would prioritize the Batman character so far over his villains that they would cease to become the interesting and complex characters they are, but I can imagine better ways to portray the driving force of their characters without breaking the narrative for the sake of a flashback scenario. I like the idea of Batman investigating into the psychological profile of Crane, discovering a dossier which details Crane's accounts of physical and verbal abuse as an infant. Another way is by having Crane subjected to his own toxin, which I would certainly keep included from 'Begins' for our own movie featuring the Scarecrow. In this case, when The Scarecrow is doused with his 'fear-toxin', instead of invisioning a 'grisly-bat' apparition, he'd cower in fear at the imagined taunts and attacks of the school bullies, seemingly back from his past to torment him again.

I think brief flashbacks could work, especially if the images on the screen don't fully leave the present behind (the past overlaid over the camera holding steady on the Scarecrow's fright mask).

I think that should be done in addition to having the Batman read Crane's records (all pertinent records, including psych reports to which he shouldn't legally have access).

If Crane gets a taste of his own medicine, I sure as hell want to see a "grisly-bat" apparition. He can see other stuff, but a hallucinogen-enhanced vision of the Batman is just too good to pass up. And I don't mean like he saw in 'Begins,' I mean similar to what the panicked civilians (who were miraculously not microwaved to death or given third-degree burns by the scalding steam... "realism" my surly, comic-reading ass!) saw when Movie!Batman was gliding through the air, except more detailed, more bestial and up, close and personal!

 

[Herr Logan]

Zaphod, that does help with the flow of the narrative. Originally, I had thought of bringing Crane's past to screen while he was speaking to Penguin (who would remark at some point of Crane's garish attire and M.O.). Crane would begin to orate on the follies of those who teased him how he exacted revenge. Initially, my thoughts were that something along these lines (Crane's cruel vehicle of retaliation) would create viewer contempt. Maybe it gives him too strong of an aura; Scarecrow's nothing more than a bully.

However, having these scenes brought to life at the hand of his own toxin is smart. His experiences of being bullied are what led him to his obsession with fear in the first place. Perhaps some rapid flash sequences of him being chased in the schoolyard being taunted as a 'scarecrow'. We could even go as far as showing his colleagues at Gotham U. ridiculing him for his choice in wardrobe and preoccupation with books. The visual effect on Crane in real-time would have him backpedaling against antagonists that are only visible to him. Eventually, he falls and curls up in the fetal position while screaming to be left alone; maybe crying. As in Begins, there's a semblance of poetic justice there.

That sounds cool. I think if done a certain way, it could even create sympathy for Crane, which will be fecked up for the audience, because Crane really is a sadistic scumbag. Even Batman would feel sorry for him, if he wasn't too busy hauling his criminally insane ass away to jail (where he'll be processed and transferred to his old workplace... on the other side of the clipboard).

My current outline goes as follows:

Batman 1: GCPD, Mafia, Penguin
Batman 2: Joker, Catwoman, Mafia
Batman 3: Two-Face, Riddler, Robin (not as a villain, of course)
Batman 4: Scarecrow, ???

I think Crane should be seen at Arkham in an earlier movie, either in 2 or 3 (depending on how recently his firing from the university should be). I think it should be made clear in Movie 4 (if that's where he shows up) that Crane did not perform his unethical fear experiments on the Joker and Two-Face, because of how closely they were guarded (or supposedly were, as the Joker is given the means to escape by his very "attentive" psychiatrist, Dr. Quinzel) and how dangerous they were. Crane is, afterall, a coward. He may strike out at the Batman because he sees it as his way to literally conquer fear, but in general, he goes after targets he thinks he has a reasonable chance of dominating. When you've got psychopathology as unique as the Joker's and Two-Face's, you never know what they can or cannot handle, and if they're left with their minds intact and a vendetta, then Crane is screwed. He studies them (or at least Harvey, since Dr. Quinzel is very territorial with regard to her most infamous patient, the Joker) but doesn't do anything to attract their vengeful will.

 

[Mister J]

Oh yes, the comics are the life blood of the mythos, even though there have been some great non-comics material for the Batman.

Certainly.

I would want to go with brief flashbacks for Crane's childhood experiences with bullying. Nothing too intrusive, and probably something discolored and overlaid on the image of his masked face during a moment of hateful contemplation before committing a crime, or facing the Batman. I suppose the Scarecrow could consider the Batman a bully, although we know this is irrational since... well... Scarecrow started it!!

Scarecrow could come to hold Batman in the same vein as he does his childhood tormentors. Initially, Batman is just a hindrance to Crane's goals. Eventually, it evolves into more because Batman is 'bullying' Scarecrow, as you said.

Remind me again, what murder did Crane commit in high school?

Bo Griggs was Crane's primary antagonist. Sherry Squires was his girlfriend, who also turned Crane down for a date or something. At any rate, he donned his Scarecrow costume, grabbed a gun and scared the crap out of them while they were driving. Their car crashed, Griggs was paralyzed, Squires was killed and Crane was delighted at the power that fear commands. Such fond memories.

I originally did not plan on having a real relationship between the Scarecrow and the Penguin. My original concept for a first movie (from which I've since deviated to exclude Scarecrow) had the Penguin as a criminal that, while not respected by crime families like the Falcones or Maronis, had his finger on the pulse of the underworld and could impart information, should someone make him the right offer (the "right offer" being a large fist wrapped in Kevlar with pouches of finely ground lead shot reinforcing the knuckles). The Batman would hear of a threat given by the Scarecrow against Gotham City (poisoning the water supply or something, but he doesn't specifically say it in his threat, since he's not as competent as the Joker and can't just tell everyone what he's doing with impunity) and would go to the Penguin for information. Penguin is packing his things to leave the city, proving to the Batman right away that he knows something, and he uses new tactics (adapted from the last time he encountered the Penguin and lost) hits him up for information (literally, of course). The Penguin doesn't have to know Crane personally to know what he's planning, since he's got an information network that can tap into Scarecrow's own mob of thugs. He's the major information broker in the Gotham underworld, and that's why the Batman allows him to stay free as long as he keeps to gambling and a nightclub or two and stays out of drugs, weapons and violent crime for good (yeah, that's likely), and he's supposed to provide the Batman with information whenever he demands it from that point forward. That was my original plan, anyway. If the Scarecrow shows up in a future movie, the same basic concept would work, except the Penguin's arrangement with the Batman would already have been in place a long time beforehand.

OK. I think I'm fully wrapped around your Penguin/Scarecrow concept now. Oswald probably wouldn't want to get his hands that dirty anyway; he's got to keep up appearances.

There's a very Vic Mackey-ish feel to Batman's relationship with Penguin. Needless to say, I like it.

There doesn't need to be any damn "erotic obsession" for the Joker. Hell, there shouldn't even be a "complete obsession" with the Batman for Joker. The Joker still has a broader stage to play on, although he'll take a shine to the Batman right away (not erotically) and will become more and more fixated on him as they continue to cross paths.

If anyone should be obsessed solely with the Batman, it should be the Riddler, since he's got basically one big trick, and the Batman seems to be the only person who can play his game (and is willing to, since I'm sure the Joker, Penguin, etc. could probably match wits, but they're stone killers and the Riddler would like a few chances to improve his game before going to his final reward).

Anyway, the erotic thing is completely unnecessary. The Joker has rarely showed any kind of real sexuality. Even with Harley Quinn around, and other females who have become infatuated with them. He's very charismatic when he wants to be (if he shows up a second time in the movie series, Dr. Harleen Quinzel's backstory will be shown briefly and she'll be his #1 henchperson), but he usually rejects advances and abuses those who show interest. Still, he's a narcissist. It's a pretty fecked up way to live, demanding that he not be ignored but refusing to reward people who lavish attention on him, but that's our Joker.
I want to emphasize the Joker's penchant for showmanship, and have that be the aspect of the Batman that really dazzles the Joker. Yes, he could be seen as a "crazed fan" of sorts at times, but his unpredictable and chaotic nature allows him to marvel at the Batman's theatrics one minute and deride his "frivolous" crusade for justice the next. I want the Joker to be basically just like the one from the Animated Universe (Mark Hammil), but also with that extra layer where he's at once jealous and in awe of the Batman's flair and style. Whereas the Joker in Tim Burtons 'BATMAN' fancied himself an artist who created "still life" pieces [insert tasteless joke about absence of life here], my version of the Joker would be all about performance art. He wouldn't be quite as pretensious as Nicholson's Joker, but he'd still be an egomaniacal, flamboyant attention ****e who does his best to put on a show worth dying for. It'll be colorful, hammy, absurd and the "realism" junkies who think that the Joker is anything like Jack the Ripper or Hannibal Lecter will hate it. That's the Batman universe, b!tches. That's the real Joker.

You're preaching to the choir. Funny, seeing as how I don't particularly care for church.

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr, allow me to say that by the sounds of your criticism, I think you may have taken this the wrong way somewhat, although not completely, I admit, but let me ask you this: Are you against the trial idea, without the rape, being included? If I were to change rape to say, murder, how would you feel about the scenario then? All the same, Bruce see's the lack of admissable evidence made against the accused during a trial, but knows the defendant is guilty, uses deduction and psychology to suss this, and leaves the FBI after seeing the accused walk out of court a free man, except, the rape is gone in favour of a more acceptable motive? Rape was a bad idea; I admit that now, and beleive it or not, I never once considered 'Daredevil' during the entire planning of it. I know its hard to beleive, but I have only seen that movie once, at the cinema when it first came out. I have also been doing Extremeties at school currently, so maybe that rubbed of on my judgement, I dont know, it was bad, tasteless idea, but I do see nothing wrong with the trial idea, and am very much in favour of it. With the rape gone, it still works. What do you think? Regardless, it simply isnt very enjoyable to watch Bruce shuffle papers as alternative, so get back to me soon on whether the trial idea (drastically altered) is appealing to you.

The trial scenario, and it's implications to Bruce, influence him as he learns the importance of admissable evidence, which will come into play during the story proper.[/i] Bruce would see that while the defendant is undoubtedly guilty (we'd learn as much through Bruce's use of deduction through psychology), the evidence brought against the accused isn't enough to persercute, and it should be. If this is the system and the way it treats wrongdoes, than he wants no part of it in this way. A




Hopefully not, if what I saud above about the scenario being altered in that one area is agreeable with you.

Oh, and what you said about the shooting range stuff, agreed.

I still think that a trial that is unrelated to Bruce personally (I'm not saying there should be one that is, mind you) would serve the story well. I know watching Bruce shuffle papers around wouldn't be interesting, which is why he'd merely mention that he didn't find it interesting-- and more importantly, didn't find it useful-- and left after six weeks. We don't need him to be disillusioned in a grandiose fashion. That's already happened with the fact that nobody has caught the Waynes' killer. I realize I filled up a lot of my posts with legal jargon, but I'm not trying to make the first movie into a courtroom drama (the end of the second film and parts of the third film would be more like this).

I reaize now that, in order to leave an appropriate portion of the movie available for the Batman to really make his mark on Gotham and give the audience the full Batman treatment, the origin would likely have to be more of a hit-and-run series of short scenes (excluding maybe the sequence at Kirigi's monastery, which would take more time, but still remain more of a narrated montage than a progressive story) than what was in 'Batman Begins.'

After re-reading 'Batman: Year One,' I really think that's a valid basis for a movie, with several significant changes. For one thing, the Batman would be the main character, while Jim Gordon would be secondary, instead of vice versa, like in the book. The Batman's equipment, headquarters and detection methods would be explored far more as well, and his origins would be summarized.
Also, the addition of the Penguin.


I'm currently working on a response to another recent post of yours which, among other things, addresses the order in which the Batman makes contact with his two allies in the criminal justice system, just so you know. I'll try to have that finished ASAP.

 

[Herr Logan]

Some notes on the final act of 'The Batman':

• The Batmobile Chase. There needs to be one, naturally, however it shouldn't feel tacked on for the sake of appeasing the fans and general audience, but should fit in nicely with the Batman's mission at hand. In Begins they worked it in fairly well without it feeling contrived. In 'The Batman', I'm unsure whether Batman would have the autopilot feature already featured in his first car? I'd rather he didnt, seeing as how I want Bruce to do alot of driving himself in these scenes, to really demonstrate his skills with a vehicle aswell as on-foot.

The first Batmobile should not have autopilot and should not be as fully loaded with high-tech features as the next one (it will still be impressive). Even with the next Batmobile, the Batman won't use autopilot unless he can't drive himself (including when he's not actually in the car but is bringing it to his location), and never during a high-speed chase where he needs to weave and maneuver through traffic at high speeds.

• The set-up. I expect Batman to set-up a sting on a set of corrupt GCPD with some of Falcone's men in tow, which would initially force them all into police-custody until an investigation proper. This works well for a number of reasons: Firstly, with all the evidence Batman will collect throughout the film, it wont be admissiable alone given the means by which it was collected (we'll see Gordan and Batman discuss this problem earlier, it also features in as a similar plot-device in the FBI orgin of mine), and so the Batman and Gordan decide the only way to bring a charge against them is too first plan a set-up, so that those on the payroll, Loeb and many of Falcones men, are caught at a scene red-handed. Once this is a success, all the evidence which Batman had previously gathered is handed over from Gordan to Dent, and Dent presents it in court as a part of his investigation's collected evidence. This eliminates 'the tree of forbidden fruit..." problem for Dent, and the evidence is enough to convict Loeb and a good deal of the corrupt GCPD and Falcone faction forever.

In fact, I could imagine the set-up encompassing the Batmobile chase, easily.

Commissioner Loeb should be shown to be fairly apathetic about who knows he's corrupt, but he would never be caught at a crime scene. That's the kind of bull$hit that Movie!Falcone did, and that can't happen in a faithful movie. He should be shown having dinner with Falcone and the Mayor, but not down at the docks during a drug hand-off or whatever. He'll be charged with corruption based on Flass' meticulous (but somewhat misspelled) notes.
Loeb's dialogue should also be written in the exact style it was in 'Year One,' because it's distinctive and I think it's great (throw in a lot of "m'boy"'s when he speaks to Gordon, and have him reiterate phrases such as, "He's your problem. Yes he is," without having someone contradict him first). Loeb should also look like he did in 'Year One.' They didn't bother having Movie!Loeb corrupt, but even if they did, he's not nearly as vile -looking as the real one. Heavyset, pasty Irish American with a face. If he was still alive, I'd have Joe Viterelli play him (he's not Irish, but he still has the perfect look).


I've re-read 'Batman: Year One' since I last put up material on this aspect. In that story, the Batman started exchanging information with Dent before he ever spoke to Gordon. The Batman doesn't actually speak with Gordon in that story near the very end, when he's in civvies and has saved Gordon's baby's life (that nonsense isn't happening in my movie, just so you know). When Gordon came to Harvey Dent's office to question his whereabouts on several nights the Batman was seen in action (he thought the Batman might be Dent, and seeing a weightlifting set in the office didn't help), the Batman was hiding under Dent's desk until Gordon left. We didn't see the Batman actually talking to Dent much, but we know he made contact more than once.
It was this realization that made me change my mind about what you had said earlier about the Batman seeking out Dent at the same time or before he sought out Gordon, as I had wanted Gordon to introduce Dent and the Batman. I think the Batman should seek out Dent first and then gradually realize he needs a man inside the police department, and he's been hearing lots of things about Lt. Jim Gordon, who does things by the book and has the support of the public due to his actions in various news-worthy spectacles (talking down an insane hostage-taker without anyone getting killed, where the trigger happy SWAT team led by Sgt. Branden would have induced a bloodbath). I would be okay with the Batman making contact with Gordon earlier than he did in YO (that is to say, at all, since he never interacted with him face-to-face in the story itself, although Gordon was waiting to meet with the Batman at the very end).

Another thing I re-learned when re-reading YO is, it turns out that much of the case against the GCPD rested on Det. Flass' testimony when he cut a deal with the D.A. I want this to be what happens in the movie. Flass “took notes on every little talk he’d had with Commissioner Loeb. Dates, times—it was all there.”
The wind-up of the GCPD investigation undertaken by the Batman and Dent goes like this:

• A well-connected drug-runner named Jefferson Skeevers was arrested and brought before the judge for a bail hearing. Harvey Dent did not argue when bail was set (much to Gordon’s dismay, as he didn’t understand what Dent had in mind).
  [*] Skeevers is in a hotel room awaiting his trial with his lawyer yelling at him to keep his nose clean while he’s snorting coke right in front of her. Right as his lawyer leaves, the Batman crashes through the hotel room’s balcony sliding glass door and pins Skeevers to the floor, twisting his wrist so the crook drops his gun.
  [*] The Batman says, “You can never escape me. Bullets don’t harm me. Nothing harms me. But I know pain. I know pain. Sometimes I share it. With someone like you.”
  [*] The very next day, Skeevers comes to Gordon and says he wants to cop a plea with Dent and talk about Flass. Gordon sends an officer to get Dent and tells him to “forget to tell the Commissioner.”
  [*] Flass is implicated in Skeevers’ drug operation and after two weeks and five days in jail, he turns over the notes he kept. Loeb isn’t put behind bars, but he resigns his position as Commissioner. The dirty cops and mobsters (now at each other’s throats now that their way of life is now disrupted and wild cards like the Batman and Catwoman are in the mix) are too busy to stand in the way of Gordon’s promotion to Captain.
  

This is leaving out all the stuff with Gordon’s affair with Sarah Essen (which may or may not get a brief nod in the movie), Loeb blackmailing Gordon with pictures of Gordon and Essen, Falcone sending his nephew after Gordon’s wife and son when Gordon tells his wife about the affair so Loeb no longer has leverage (which will not be in the movie, or at least not the kidnapping part).

The Batman will also beat Flass up and scare him (during his nightly routine, and after Gordon has beaten Flass up and left him tied up naked in retaliation for his own beating) before he gets Skeevers to give up Flass, who gives up Loeb, etc.


Sticking to this story as much as makes sense does make it easier to form a cohesive plot, since I really have no clue where to begin otherwise. It doesn’t mean it has to be word-for-word, but certain things should remain, since they make sense, flow well and give the Batman a chance to show off his intimidation factor. Truthfully, there isn’t much detective work in YO, so that will have to be corrected, but the intimidation stuff works well. I’ve even changed my mind about the “You have eaten well…” speech, since I had remembered it wrong before. I think that was Commissioner Loeb’s house, and the Batman didn’t jump onto the dinner table and fight anyone. He knocked out the electricity, filled the room with smoke, set up a floodlight aiming inward from outside, blew a huge hole in a wall of the house, and lifted a flambé pan to illuminate his face as he said, “Ladies. Gentlemen. You have eaten well. You’ve eaten Gotham’s wealth. Its spirit. Your feast is nearly over. From this moment on—none of you are safe.” He covers up the flame in the pan again and disappears. Right before this happened, Gordon called Loeb at his house to repeat his request for more men for his Batman task force (he was against the Batman at this point), and Loeb said that the Batman has a good effect on public spirit and has made the street crime rate go down (and is assuming he only goes after small-time criminals). Right after the Batman pulled his stunt, Loeb gives Gordon every man available and demands that he take the Batman immediately! Heh. This could be changed around a bit (Gordon doesn’t have to be so hard-up to take down the Batman on his own initiative), but I could work with the general premise if you think it works. Again, as we said, before, the Batman doesn’t have to give that speech out loud. Tell me what you think.

Batman would go to Gordan, with the intent to formulate a plan in order to set-up and land Loeb and his men in the red. Batman tells Gordan to round up some cops and detectives he can trust. Gordan does so, amongst them is Montoya and Bullock, who we are briefly introduced to. (It's worth mentioning, that it would be made clear that Gordan doesnt want Bullock to know anything about Batman and the relationship they've forged, so he would keep Bullock firmly out of the know. Montoya would have her suspicions as to the rumours of 'a bat-creature preying on the criminals of Gotham' go, and would suspect that Gordan knows something more when he mentions 'their contact' to her). I havent got down the way in which Batman will implicate Loeb and his men at the scene, but it would involve Gordan and his entourage busting in on them, unmistakbly catching them in the act. The Batman, meanwhile, would be away from the scene, causing a distraction of somesort, to lead a good number of GCPD still on the payroll and a threat to the sting, away from the scene. I could imagine this scenario to encompass both the Batmobile chase, and the on-foot pursuit you touched upin earlier Herr.

In ‘Year One,’ the all-out firefight with the police begins when the Batman saves an old bag lady from an out-of-control truck whose driver is suffering a heart attack, and Gordon and Essen happen to be right there when it happens. Essen called for backup, Sgt. Branden and his storm troopers chase the Batman into a condemned building (that still has a few derelicts in it) and drop a bomb from a helicopter onto the roof. The police go into the burning rubble after the Batman. Wackiness and thrills ensue. I figure a car chase could occur right before this, where the Batman pursues criminals in a getaway car and the police are tipped off to this chase and they set up where they figure the Batman and his prey are likely to pass through, setting a trap. The criminals will likely end up dead (unless the Batman manages to save them, which would not be likely in this case) and the Batman would be forced to leave the Batmobile behind. I’d have him detonate explosives in the car himself, showing the audience that he’s willing and has set the option to do so beforehand.

In 'Dark Victory,' Chief Clancy O'Hara gives Jim Gordon a list of cops he vouches for to work the "Hangman" serial cop-killer case. I'm thinking we could use O'Hara in our movie and have the same thing happen, but for the purpose of cleaning up the department. Thing is, in both 'The Long Halloween' and 'Dark Victory,' Gordon was Commissioner (which is pretty implausible, considering he just made Captain at the end of 'Year One' and TLH isn't supposed to take place very much after YO. Anyway, either O’Hara would have to be a sergeant or he’d have to be above Gordon in rank.
I don’t think there would be too much for these cops to do specifically, but they could help Gordon keep an eye on the Falcone organization without drawing too much attention from Loeb. As I said before, the key to taking down the current corrupt Commissioner (the next one is even worse, apparently, but it’s still progress according to Gordon) is catching and turning Flass, and Skeevers can give up Flass if “convinced” properly.

I suggest you pick up a copy of ‘Batman: Year One.’ It offers a lot of good ideas.

Thanks for posting, Zaphod.

 

[Zaphod]

I still think that a trial that is unrelated to Bruce personally (I'm not saying there should be one that is, mind you) wouldn't serve the story well. I know watching Bruce shuffle papers around wouldn't be interesting, which is why he'd merely mention that he didn't find it interesting-- and more importantly, didn't find it useful-- and left after six weeks. We don't need him to be disillusioned in a grandiose fashion. That's already happened with the fact that nobody has caught the Waynes' killer.

I understand your criticisms, and I agree that a courtroom sequence should there be one, should not be a sub-plot within the movie itself. However, done right, and given the appropriate screentime (which wouldn't be much, it would last about as long as Ducards and Bruce's conversation in the cell during 'Begins'), it could really be effective in driving home the ideas to why Bruce left the FBI. In 'The Man Who Falls', Bruce leaves after six-weeks because he cannot fight-crime in a system that prioritizes bureaucracy over taking action. In my idea, Bruce witnesses a trial go awry to the advantage of a guilty man, as he see's that the evidence becomes embroildeld and bogged-down through the rules that the system inflicts on them, making them unadmissable and setting the guilty free. In both cases, Bruce leaves the FBI because the system is failing him, and the innocent, which he swore to defend and cannot do if he remains pledged to the FBI. In my version of these events, he cannot fight-crime when the only means of action is to leave the verdict and evidence in the hands of bureacrats. The same ideas of why Bruce left are still accomplished on-screen, to greater effect. I really, really do think this a more effective way in showing the FBI origin, rather than just having Bruce mention he left for such reasons. I dont want to get into the habit of telling the audience, as opposed to showing them.

I propose that I go away and rework my idea for this part of Bruce's orgin, on the basis of what I said above, and if you have any advice on how to make this concept more effective (even if your not entirely sure yourself it will work as an idea, yet), based on your knowledge of law and criminology, than that would be a big help.
​

I realize now that, in order to leave an appropriate portion of the movie available for the Batman to really make his mark on Gotham and give the audience the full Batman treatment, the origin would likely have to be more of a hit-and-run series of short scenes (excluding maybe the sequence at Kirigi's monastery, which would take more time, but still remain more of a narrated montage than a progressive story) than what was in 'Batman Begins.'

I disgaree with this. I foresee no reason to overlook the origin in matter of length and narrative, for the sake of showing Batman in Gotham proper. Yes, we need to see the latter very soon on in the movie, but in a three-and-a-half hour movie, theres no reason the origin should be any shorter than it was in 'Begins'. My origin covers the following on Bruce's training: Bruce in the FBI, Bruce with Kirigi, Bruce with Shaman/Dogget (yes I realize the Dogget came before the Shaman, but you'll see how I've worked it in later), Bruce practicing with Bushmen. It may seem alot, but all this would only last the same amount of time the origin story did in 'Begins', and in a much longer movie treatment such as ours, it can afford to without affecting the amount of screentime the Batman proper would get.

After re-reading 'Batman: Year One,' I really think that's a valid basis for a movie, with several significant changes. For one thing, the Batman would be the main character, while Jim Gordon would be secondary, instead of vice versa, like in the book. The Batman's equipment, headquarters and detection methods would be explored far more as well, and his origins would be summarized.
Also, the addition of the Penguin.

Remember, alot of what I have planned to post on Batman's method of detection, forensics and science in this movie needs to be considered aswell, so that would be a significant change aswell.

I'm currently working on a response to another recent post of yours which, among other things, addresses the order in which the Batman makes contact with his two allies in the criminal justice system, just so you know. I'll try to have that finished ASAP.

Much appreicated, thats a very important part of the movie, glad we're getting this down.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

It's self-exploration and the revelation ultimately makes it clear to the audience that the Dark Knight is the true face. That's why I mentioned his public facade, it's something he rather not bother with. There are times when certain things about that public life appeal to him, but at the end of the day, he's unyielding in his mission.

Sorry. My mistake.

By the way, the sequel forums could definitely use you; a lot of the fans are proposing so many radical ideas that it is down-right dumb. And even The Guard and Keyser Sushi who are held as reasonable posters are in on on the insanity.

 

[Herr Logan]

Sorry. My mistake.

By the way, the sequel forums could definitely use you; a lot of the fans are proposing so many radical ideas that is down-right dumb. And even The Guard and Keyser Sushi who are held as reasonable posters are in on on the insanity.

I definitely don't regard the former of that pair you mentioned as "reasonable," considering he goes to great lengths to defend basically every single perceived flaw in various movies, using lots of empty platitudes (but admittedly putting much more effort into it than most studio apologists) and refusing to even consider the point of view of fans of the comics.

That's why I created this thread, because that kind of toadyish, anti-source material, anti-critical thinking behavior and lowest-common-denominator comformism is prohibited (see rules on page one).

Welcome to the Haven, by the way.

 

[Herr Logan]

[FONT=&quot]

I understand your criticisms, and I agree that a courtroom sequence should there be one, should not be a sub-plot within the movie itself. However, done right, and given the appropriate screentime (which wouldn't be much, it would last about as long as Ducards and Bruce's conversation in the cell during 'Begins'), it could really be effective in driving home the ideas to why Bruce left the FBI. In 'The Man Who Falls', Bruce leaves after six-weeks because he cannot fight-crime in a system that prioritizes bureaucracy over taking action. In my idea, Bruce witnesses a trial go awry to the advantage of a guilty man, as he see's that the evidence becomes embroildeld and bogged-down through the rules that the system inflicts on them, making them unadmissable and setting the guilty free. In both cases, Bruce leaves the FBI because the system is failing him, and the innocent, which he swore to defend and cannot do if he remains pledged to the FBI. In my version of these events, he cannot fight-crime when the only means of action is to leave the verdict and evidence in the hands of bureacrats. The same ideas of why Bruce left are still accomplished on-screen, to greater effect. I really, really do think this a more effective way in showing the FBI origin, rather than just having Bruce mention he left for such reasons. I dont want to get into the habit of telling the audience, as opposed to showing them.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I propose that I go away and rework my idea for this part of Bruce's orgin, on the basis of what I said above, and if you have any advice on how to make this concept more effective (even if your not entirely sure yourself it will work as an idea, yet), based on your knowledge of law and criminology, than that would be a big help.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

I still don't think a trial serves the story, for several reasons:

1) Courts will still be a part of the process of the Batman's brand of justice. He doesn't kill criminals, but rather turns them over to the police (if he can incapacitate them long enough for the police to collect them), so the criminal justice system will still be in play even if the Batman engages in vigilante behavior.

2) The only way to make this serve the story is to have the defendant's (who pled "not guilty," or else there wouldn't be a trial) acquittal attributed to insufficient evidence collected. That's the only thing the Batman can offer the court system other than hunting down criminals so they can be processed at all, and the former aspect is sketchy (since he's not a sworn officer, which offers more freedom in some ways, but practically no legitimacy to his actions).
The problem with this is, in general, but in major cities especially (like Washington, DC), a District Attorney is unlikely to charge a suspect unless he/she has a good chance of winning. District Attorneys are elected, and therefore try to keep a clean record. That's why so many are all too happy to accept plea bargains, because that's a sure way to avoid a "loss" on their record. Most arrested and charged (by the police at this juncture, not the D.A.) criminals plead out, which gets them a reduced sentence and saves them a lot of money (if they're outside the lower economic bracket that makes them elligible for a public defender) and time. If there isn't enough evidence or witness testimony to secure a good chance of winning, the D.A. likely won't bring it to trial. That makes the scenario unlikely in the first place.

The more emphasis we put on the workings of the court system (and I realize I've put a lot of concepts out to encourage this, so I'm not blaming you for having the idea... I need to keep myself in check and I think we need to scale back on the details), the harder it makes it on us to make a story that works. I've written up a bunch of stuff relating to 'Year One,' and I'm very much in favor of skipping a lot of legal details for the sake of not flagrantly announcing the flaws in our own story to the audience.

The main thing about the Batman's relationship with the police is that he's supposed to work alongside it, because he still needs them to handle the criminals after he catches them. Sometimes the evidence he finds is admissible, a lot of the time it's just to point him and sometimes the police (I believe they can follow an anonymous tip or confidential informant's tip if there's a wealth of detailed information even if the informant isn't officialy registered but with a history of fruitful tips, but don't quote me on that-- I just know that when I wrote up an affidavit for a criminal justice class and made it about Jim Gordon seeking a warrant for the Penguin based on information given by an unnamed but qualified source with a history of good tips, my professor-- who is also a prosecutor-- gave me an A+ and said he liked my details... I can send you the Word file if you want) in the right direction where the cops can find admissible evidence, or at the very least arrest suspects with outstanding arrest warrants on them or convicted felons on probation or parole who can be caught with illegal weapons (all known felons are prohibited from owning or using guns, and unlicensed guns are illegal for anybody, I believe) or associating with other known felons (which is grounds for arrest and throwing them in stir, I believe). He can't control what goes on in the courtroom, and he can't fix the system. He can only help in the ways I've described and intervene in crimes in progress or prevent crimes beforehand, which is where the psychological Bat-tactics, mythic reputation and physical skills come into play.

The only way it could really work is if it was very brief and was simply a continuance of what Bruce already knew when days, weeks and months went by when he was 8 years old and his parents' killers were never caught. I honestly don't believe a courtroom scene should be its own message.


Wait... something's coming to me...


Okay, I still think it needs to be very brief and that "telling" should still be the method by which the message gets across (because this movie is about the Batman and his life, not about the court system), but here's another angle:
It's a murder case where the defendant is known to be part of a larger drug and/or racketeering conspiracy network, although there are no conspiracy charges here and the only charge is murder. At least one witness changes their testimony on the stand and claims they know nothing, which throws off the prosecutor completely, since they rehearsed the witness examination beforehand and the witness did have something to say. Until he/she sees other members of the crime network in the gallery (observers' section of the courtroom) and succumb to intimidation, knowing that if they testify, they will be hurt afterward. It is because of this that the defendant goes free.
This is taken straight from the pilot episode of that show I mentioned before, 'The Wire,' by the way. That trial's outcome pissed off the judge, who got wheels turning that brought about an all-out investigation. The witness in the trial in the beginning who did testify in spite of thugs glaring from the gallery was subsequently murdered.

My one big misgiving about that scenario is that it's not taking place in Gotham City, and that's where the focus should be when it comes to crime, corruption, injustice, etc. I suppose it could still work, and Bruce (who should be doing a voiceover during all of this) could say, "As bad as it is here, this is strictly the order of the day in Gotham City, where everything that happens is influenced or enacted by organized crime."

Here there is an opportunity to actually show something they neglected to follow up on in 'Batman Begins.' Rachel Dawes said that Falcone keeps the bad people rich and the good people scared, but we didn't actually see any witness or juror intimidation. We could do that hear and have Bruce verbally point out that fear is often the force behind injustice. Later on, when Bruce has learned from various masters and mentors how to put the fear of God (or the Devil) into his targets, he will point out that fear isn't a force, but an emotion all creatures experience, and the ability to induce fear is merely a tool that can be harnessed for injustice or justice.

Thoughts?

I disgaree with this. I foresee no reason to overlook the origin in matter of length and narrative, for the sake of showing Batman in Gotham proper. Yes, we need to see the latter very soon on in the movie, but in a three-and-a-half hour movie, theres no reason the origin should be any shorter than it was in 'Begins'. My origin covers the following on Bruce's training: Bruce in the FBI, Bruce with Kirigi, Bruce with Shaman/Dogget (yes I realize the Dogget came before the Shaman, but you'll see how I've worked it in later), Bruce practicing with Bushmen. It may seem alot, but all this would only last the same amount of time the origin story did in 'Begins', and in a much longer movie treatment such as ours, it can afford to without affecting the amount of screentime the Batman proper would get.

I thought we had said 3 hours, not 3.5 hours.

Cullen really won't be able to hold it in through the movie now.

Point taken. I just want to make sure that the origin doesn't go past one hour if it's three hours. If it's an extra half hour, I could spring for 15 more minutes of origin time. I'm not too stingy.

I also want to make sure that there's enough time spent on Bruce's childhood in Gotham to really set the mood for all the dark scenes to come. That kid is going to be creepy as hell, not weepy and useless like in 'Begins.' I can't believe they waited until Bruce was 18+ before leaving Gotham. 7 years training? Feh! Bruce left home when he was 14 years and spent 12 years getting into shape. I want to use the line from 'Year One' (after he is wounded by police and hookers while in plainclothes) about having waited 18 years and how Bruce can't wait anymore. I want him to actually have been training (the Batman's idea of waiting) for all of those 18 years, as in from ages 9-14, he studies hard and well beyond his grade level, and trains his mind and body to be the best they can be. This is relatively low-level stuff compared to when he's older, however. For twelve years after that, This is how when Bruce comes home, it will take him maybe about a month before he really hits his stride and begins to show that he is the Dark Knight, and show some hints that he'll become the World's Greatest Detective.

Remember, alot of what I have planned to post on Batman's method of detection, forensics and science in this movie needs to be considered aswell, so that would be a significant change aswell.

Indeed. While I'd like the downfall of Commissioner Loeb, Arnold Flass (who is basically Falcone's right hand man in the police department... I'm sorry I refuted you on that earlier) and Sgt. Branden (the SWAT leader who acts like he's in a warzone every time his services are needed), etc. to hinge on Flass getting arrested and charged (which hinges on Jefferson Skeevers getting the $hit scared out of him by the Batman), I think there definitely needs to be some straightforward detective work. Considering the primary concern here is a vast city-wide conspiracy that reaches every level of power and individual crime scenes are not the focus, I think the forensics work should be mainly used for the Batman to verify facts for himself so he doesn't chase false leads. Or... perhaps it could lead to one of the Penguin's henchmen, implicating Cobblepot's mini-mob and giving the Penguin something to do in the story other than to just be the obligatory classic villain for an action scene?

Much appreicated, thats a very important part of the movie, glad we're getting this down.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Me too.

[/FONT]

 

[Zev]

So, Herr, what do you have in mind for action sequences for this hypothetical Batman movie?

 

[Herr Logan]

So, Herr, what do you have in mind for action sequences for this hypothetical Batman movie?

In Movie #1:

Ninja combat training-- dramatic martial arts combined with fancy gymnastic-type maneuvers, weapons training, etc.

A quick, brutal street fight in plainclothes resulting in police intervention and at least one gunshot wound for Bruce.

A debut night for the Batman where he uses similar scare tactics to those of the dock scene in 'Batman Begins' along with the badass intimidation of the beginning of 'BATMAN' and some good old-fashioned, ground-level ass-kicking (and you would actually see everything that goes on, unlike in 'Batman Begins'... none of this "seeing from the criminals' point of view, right in the middle of the action bull$hit; the viewers came to see a Batman fighting in style, not transparent excuses for sloppy cinematic decisions). Swooping around, scaring several (2-4) perpetrators of a street robbery at night (either intervening while it's in progress or catching up to them directly afterwards), beating them up while appearing to be struck by bullets unharmed (the ol' spread the cape and keep the body between the shots trick) and then giving a rehash of the end of that first rooftop scene in 'BATMAN,' except with the lines from an earlier draft of the screenplay:
"You're trespassing, dirtbag."
"Trespassing? You don't own the night!"
"Tell your friends. Tell all your friends... I am the night."

A big-ass shootout fight with the Penguin (although Oswald will be the only one doing the actual shooting) and his assorted deadly umbrellas, culminating in lots of deadly attack birds being released from cages to chase the Batman off.

The scenes from 'Year One' where Flass and a bunch of other dirt cops give Gordon what amounts to a "blanket party" (I know you watch the 'Shield'), but in such a way that he doesn't need to go to the hospital, and also the one where Gordon does the same to Flass, but all by himself.

Raids on mobsters and dirty cops alike, in a similar fashion to the Bat-debut scene but more intense. Martial arts, smoke grenades, illusory tactics making the Batman come off looking invulnerable... the whole shebang.

The big GCPD vs. Batman fight in 'Year One,' with the flaming and collapsing building and the summoned swarms of bats.

Another brief scene with the Penguin, but a one-sided blitz from the Batman this time, rather than a "fight" per se.

The Catwoman will attack Falcone in his own home and quickly escape.




These are only the ones I know should be there. In no way does it have to be limited to this. Also, I know they need fleshing out, but here it is for right now.

 

[Zaphod]

[FONT=&quot]
I still don't think a trial serves the story, for several reasons:

1) Courts will still be a part of the process of the Batman's brand of justice. He doesn't kill criminals, but rather turns them over to the police (if he can incapacitate them long enough for the police to collect them), so the criminal justice system will still be in play even if the Batman engages in vigilante behavior.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

True, but I dont really see this as burdening the idea, in fact, it works to it's advantage. In my idea, Bruce wouldn't leave the FBI because he opposes the courts and there function in serving justice, but rather, he opposes the corruption and unfairness of the justice-system in general to which they are a part. When Bruce witnesses the guilty-defendant aquitted, through a technicality of evidence, Bruce learns that he cannot function in such a system which prioritizes bueacracy over taking action in the name of serving true justice.

2) The only way to make this serve the story is to have the defendant's (who pled "not guilty," or else there wouldn't be a trial) acquittal attributed to insufficient evidence collected. That's the only thing the Batman can offer the court system other than hunting down criminals so they can be processed at all, and the former aspect is sketchy (since he's not a sworn officer, which offers more freedom in some ways, but practically no legitimacy to his actions).
The problem with this is, in general, but in major cities especially (like Washington, DC), a District Attorney is unlikely to charge a suspect unless he/she has a good chance of winning. District Attorneys are elected, and therefore try to keep a clean record. That's why so many are all too happy to accept plea bargains, because that's a sure way to avoid a "loss" on their record. Most arrested and charged (by the police at this juncture, not the D.A.) criminals plead out, which gets them a reduced sentence and saves them a lot of money (if they're outside the lower economic bracket that makes them elligible for a public defender) and time. If there isn't enough evidence or witness testimony to secure a good chance of winning, the D.A. likely won't bring it to trial. That makes the scenario unlikely in the first place.

If by 'lack of evidence', you mean insubstantial when held up in court, and not tangible enough to draw together a strong and coherent case against the suspect, then yes, this is what I was planning to have be the reason for the accused being allowed to go free.

The more emphasis we put on the workings of the court system (and I realize I've put a lot of concepts out to encourage this, so I'm not blaming you for having the idea... I need to keep myself in check and I think we need to scale back on the details), the harder it makes it on us to make a story that works. I've written up a bunch of stuff relating to 'Year One,' and I'm very much in favor of skipping a lot of legal details for the sake of not flagrantly announcing the flaws in our own story to the audience.

The entire sequence, would not be filled with plenty of law-jargon, and would still be very brief (remember, it should last only the same amount of time as the conversation between Bruce and Ducard in the cell took in 'Begins', perhaps a tiny bit longer if needed, but nothing more). I wouldn't be aiming to shoot ourselves in the foot with this scene in relation to the true workings of a court system. Remember, this scene serves the purpose of showing Bruce's disillusionment (aswell as seeing him use some of them psychology skills of his), so its pupose above all else is the human drama of the situation.

The main thing about the Batman's relationship with the police is that he's supposed to work alongside it, because he still needs them to handle the criminals after he catches them. Sometimes the evidence he finds is admissible, a lot of the time it's just to point him and sometimes the police (I believe they can follow an anonymous tip or confidential informant's tip if there's a wealth of detailed information even if the informant isn't officialy registered but with a history of fruitful tips, but don't quote me on that-- I just know that when I wrote up an affidavit for a criminal justice class and made it about Jim Gordon seeking a warrant for the Penguin based on information given by an unnamed but qualified source with a history of good tips, my professor-- who is also a prosecutor-- gave me an A+ and said he liked my details... I can send you the Word file if you want) in the right direction where the cops can find admissible evidence, or at the very least arrest suspects with outstanding arrest warrants on them or convicted felons on probation or parole who can be caught with illegal weapons (all known felons are prohibited from owning or using guns, and unlicensed guns are illegal for anybody, I believe) or associating with other known felons (which is grounds for arrest and throwing them in stir, I believe). He can't control what goes on in the courtroom, and he can't fix the system. He can only help in the ways I've described and intervene in crimes in progress or prevent crimes beforehand, which is where the psychological Bat-tactics, mythic reputation and physical skills come into play.

The only way it could really work is if it was very brief and was simply a continuance of what Bruce already knew when days, weeks and months went by when he was 8 years old and his parents' killers were never caught. I honestly don't believe a courtroom scene should be its own message.

Wait... something's coming to me...

Okay, I still think it needs to be very brief and that "telling" should still be the method by which the message gets across (because this movie is about the Batman and his life, not about the court system), but here's another angle:
It's a murder case where the defendant is known to be part of a larger drug and/or racketeering conspiracy network, although there are no conspiracy charges here and the only charge is murder. At least one witness changes their testimony on the stand and claims they know nothing, which throws off the prosecutor completely, since they rehearsed the witness examination beforehand and the witness did have something to say. Until he/she sees other members of the crime network in the gallery (observers' section of the courtroom) and succumb to intimidation, knowing that if they testify, they will be hurt afterward. It is because of this that the defendant goes free.
This is taken straight from the pilot episode of that show I mentioned before, 'The Wire,' by the way. That trial's outcome pissed off the judge, who got wheels turning that brought about an all-out investigation. The witness in the trial in the beginning who did testify in spite of thugs glaring from the gallery was subsequently murdered.

I like this, I really do. It introduces another useful theme into the foray, in that not only is the evidence insubstantial in bringing about a charge, but that it introduces the themes of fear and intimidation, ideas which are intregal to Bruce's own understanding of the criminal element, aswell as aspects he will master himself in order to fight crime. This could also potentially overcome the problem of the District Attorney's role in the whole affar, which you mentioned earlier. How about this:

The suspect, a known member of a drug/racketeering circle, is being charged and tried for murder. There are no charges being brought against the organization itself, but only the proposed act of the suspect alone, the murder. However, if this case proves a success and the guilty verdict is past, it is all the D.A needs in order to formulate the begginings of a full-out investigation against the organization to which the suspect is a part. The evidence he has is scarce and weak in bringing about anything concreate in a conviction, however, there is hope which rides on the back of a key-witness. When the witness reaches the stand and is asked to testify, they change their prior statement, claiming they know nothing or that they cannot be sure of what they saw in the first place. This is of course down the to the presence of the organizations heavie's in the observers stands, who have been intimidating the witness with repercussions should he/she give incriminating evidence in their statement. The entire hearing is shot; The D.A doesn't get his conviction, now without the needed testimony and a lack of evidence, the suspect is found 'not guilty' and set free. This also means no invesitgation into the organization's other criminal practices.

My one big misgiving about that scenario is that it's not taking place in Gotham City, and that's where the focus should be when it comes to crime, corruption, injustice, etc. I suppose it could still work, and Bruce (who should be doing a voiceover during all of this) could say, "As bad as it is here, this is strictly the order of the day in Gotham City, where everything that happens is influenced or enacted by organized crime."

Here there is an opportunity to actually show something they neglected to follow up on in 'Batman Begins.' Rachel Dawes said that Falcone keeps the bad people rich and the good people scared, but we didn't actually see any witness or juror intimidation. We could do that hear and have Bruce verbally point out that fear is often the force behind injustice. Later on, when Bruce has learned from various masters and mentors how to put the fear of God (or the Devil) into his targets, he will point out that fear isn't a force, but an emotion all creatures experience, and the ability to induce fear is merely a tool that can be harnessed for injustice or justice.

I think the idea can still work if it is set in Washington as opposed to Gotham, and I agree with everything you said about highlighting the witness and juror initmidation.

I thought we had said 3 hours, not 3.5 hours.

I mean to say just three hours, sorry.

Point taken. I just want to make sure that the origin doesn't go past one hour if it's three hours. If it's an extra half hour, I could spring for 15 more minutes of origin time. I'm not too stingy.

I also want to make sure that there's enough time spent on Bruce's childhood in Gotham to really set the mood for all the dark scenes to come. That kid is going to be creepy as hell, not weepy and useless like in 'Begins.' I can't believe they waited until Bruce was 18+ before leaving Gotham. 7 years training? Feh! Bruce left home when he was 14 years and spent 12 years getting into shape. I want to use the line from 'Year One' (after he is wounded by police and hookers while in plainclothes) about having waited 18 years and how Bruce can't wait anymore. I want him to actually have been training (the Batman's idea of waiting) for all of those 18 years, as in from ages 9-14, he studies hard and well beyond his grade level, and trains his mind and body to be the best they can be. This is relatively low-level stuff compared to when he's older, however. For twelve years after that, This is how when Bruce comes home, it will take him maybe about a month before he really hits his stride and begins to show that he is the Dark Knight, and show some hints that he'll become the World's Greatest Detective.

There will be enough time. By having the narrative of Bruce's childhood, inter-spliced with that of his later-day training abroad, we can bring together a cohesive and tight-fitting origin. I wouldn't worry about things getting convulated, this is partially a film-noir story anyway

Indeed. While I'd like the downfall of Commissioner Loeb, Arnold Flass (who is basically Falcone's right hand man in the police department... I'm sorry I refuted you on that earlier) and Sgt. Branden (the SWAT leader who acts like he's in a warzone every time his services are needed), etc. to hinge on Flass getting arrested and charged (which hinges on Jefferson Skeevers getting the $hit scared out of him by the Batman), I think there definitely needs to be some straightforward detective work. Considering the primary concern here is a vast city-wide conspiracy that reaches every level of power and individual crime scenes are not the focus, I think the forensics work should be mainly used for the Batman to verify facts for himself so he doesn't chase false leads. Or... perhaps it could lead to one of the Penguin's henchmen, implicating Cobblepot's mini-mob and giving the Penguin something to do in the story other than to just be the obligatory classic villain for an action scene?

Straightforward detective work is fine, but there simply must be scenes with Bruce putting to use his forensic equipment both in the Cave, and when he is patrolling. Apart from hitting up hood's for information, Bruce will also go under-cover (disguised, with help from Alfred), make use of a directional microphone to listen in on conversations, record conversations , for use later on in court (he'll record the voices, and then have them verified and backed up with 'voiceprints' taken back at the Cave, before handing them over to Lt. Gordan). He take pictorial evidence from inside important dossiers, with a micro-camera (he'll do this while disguised). He'll also study a sample of rare-birdseed to deduce what species it belongs to, which would be one lead in discovering The Penguin.

If you have any other ideas for Batman's forensics and detective work in this movie, please share them. The detective side to Batman, aswell as his origin, are two of the most important facets to his character in my opinion, and I want these aspects to shine for the movie.

[/FONT]

 

[Herr Logan]

[FONT=&quot]

True, but I dont really see this as burdening the idea, in fact, it works to it's advantage. In my idea, Bruce wouldn't leave the FBI because he opposes the courts and there function in serving justice, but rather, he opposes the corruption and unfairness of the justice-system in general to which they are a part. When Bruce witnesses the guilty-defendant aquitted, through a technicality of evidence, Bruce learns that he cannot function in such a system which prioritizes bueacracy over taking action in the name of serving true justice.


If by 'lack of evidence', you mean insubstantial when held up in court, and not tangible enough to draw together a strong and coherent case against the suspect, then yes, this is what I was planning to have be the reason for the accused being allowed to go free.


The entire sequence, would not be filled with plenty of law-jargon, and would still be very brief (remember, it should last only the same amount of time as the conversation between Bruce and Ducard in the cell took in 'Begins', perhaps a tiny bit longer if needed, but nothing more). I wouldn't be aiming to shoot ourselves in the foot with this scene in relation to the true workings of a court system. Remember, this scene serves the purpose of showing Bruce's disillusionment (aswell as seeing him use some of them psychology skills of his), so its pupose above all else is the human drama of the situation.


I like this, I really do. It introduces another useful theme into the foray, in that not only is the evidence insubstantial in bringing about a charge, but that it introduces the themes of fear and intimidation, ideas which are intregal to Bruce's own understanding of the criminal element, aswell as aspects he will master himself in order to fight crime. This could also potentially overcome the problem of the District Attorney's role in the whole affar, which you mentioned earlier. How about this:

The suspect, a known member of a drug/racketeering circle, is being charged and tried for murder. There are no charges being brought against the organization itself, but only the proposed act of the suspect alone, the murder. However, if this case proves a success and the guilty verdict is past, it is all the D.A needs in order to formulate the begginings of a full-out investigation against the organization to which the suspect is a part. The evidence he has is scarce and weak in bringing about anything concreate in a conviction, however, there is hope which rides on the back of a key-witness. When the witness reaches the stand and is asked to testify, they change their prior statement, claiming they know nothing or that they cannot be sure of what they saw in the first place. This is of course down the to the presence of the organizations heavie's in the observers stands, who have been intimidating the witness with repercussions should he/she give incriminating evidence in their statement. The entire hearing is shot; The D.A doesn't get his conviction, now without the needed testimony and a lack of evidence, the suspect is found 'not guilty' and set free. This also means no invesitgation into the organization's other criminal practices.


I think the idea can still work if it is set in Washington as opposed to Gotham, and I agree with everything you said about highlighting the witness and juror initmidation. [/FONT]

I really, really don't think it's a good idea to set any significant gang-related material anyplace but Gotham City. It weakens the character and mythos if we show the audience that things are just as bad in Gotham City as everywhere else instead of worse, and futhermore, it's not up to the writers of a first Batman movie to get into that comparison in the first place, regardless of what the proportion is.

Bruce Wayne was not disillusioned with the criminal justice system when he was in FBI training. He was disillusioned with the FBI. You've strayed from that considerably by making this about a trial. I'm not even entirely sure what's taking place here; Bruce is an observer in the court's gallery, just taking notes on what's going on, right? He could do that in Gotham City at age 14, which is exactly what should happen if there is any need for a trial at all in Bruce's origin story.

Again, Bruce is going to help the criminal justice system no matter what, since he won't kill. It's the difference between the Punisher and the Batman; Frank Castle doesn't give a damn whether or not the system works, because ain't nobody goin' to jail if he has his way. The Batman is going to hand these mopes over to the cops or leave them gift-wrapped to be arrested. Thus, it's not about being disillusioned with the system. It's a matter of Bruce realizing that he doesn't have enough control over anything as an FBI trainee and probably won't as an agent, which is why he goes another route. It's about control, and the Batman has more control over criminals as an independent agent. Hell, it's not like the Batman doesn't do a $hitload of paperwork anyway, because he does. He takes meticulous notes, files them away and updates them as needed in his database (even in the first movie, before the "official" Batcomputer is on its feet). It's not about that, either. It's about the fact that Bruce doesn't have a lot of freedom as an agent of the law. He can only act if he has a warrant, he can only use certain equipment with authorization, and so forth. It's about what he himself can do, and that's a very self-serving thing. He's not going to fix the system, and I think it is necessary that if we are to see a criminal beat a trial because of actual corruption in the system, it needs to be in Gotham City, and only Gotham City.

I think a trial could work well, but not in D.C. Nowhere but Gotham. It weakens the story considerably to show the criminal justice system failing outside of Gotham. People would wonder what the hell is the point of the Batman coming back to and staying in Gotham City? Why doesn't he track the most important cases all over the country (or world, for that matter) and seek to help law enforcement wherever he's "needed"? For all the travelling and experience he's had Batman has blinders on when it comes to his mission, as in generally only sees Gotham as a place that needs protecting. The audience needs to have those exact same blinders on.

I cannot sign off on a D.C. trial. I think I can help shape ideas if it's a Gotham City trial, though, and I do believe that if we went that route-- and it would be a far more corruption-based scenario, rather than a show of incompetence by the police and prosecutors-- that would strengthen the themes of fear, the terrible consequences of corruption (drug dealers and murders being spit back out by the system into the population where they casn repeat their offenses), and the Batman's obsession with protecting Gotham City.

[FONT=&quot]

I mean to say just three hours, sorry.

Hey, I could work with 3.5 hours. But I'll be merciful on Cullen's fragile bladder (he's a feeble old man, you know) and leave it at three. That leaves about one hour for the Batman to get into his Batsuit.

There will be enough time. By having the narrative of Bruce's childhood, inter-spliced with that of his later-day training abroad, we can bring together a cohesive and tight-fitting origin. I wouldn't worry about things getting convulated, this is partially a film-noir story anyway

This is true. Film noir rarely makes any sense.

Straightforward detective work is fine, but there simply must be scenes with Bruce putting to use his forensic equipment both in the Cave, and when he is patrolling. Apart from hitting up hood's for information, Bruce will also go under-cover (disguised, with help from Alfred), make use of a directional microphone to listen in on conversations, record conversations , for use later on in court (he'll record the voices, and then have them verified and backed up with 'voiceprints' taken back at the Cave, before handing them over to Lt. Gordan). He take pictorial evidence from inside important dossiers, with a micro-camera (he'll do this while disguised).

If the Batman records conversations, the only way that's useful is for his own edification, so he knows he's on the right track. It cannot be used as evidence, and he shouldn't even be presenting that kind of evidence to Jim Gordon, since Gordon is generally a by-the-book cop and he doesn't cotton to eating fruit from the poisonous tree. I can't be sure about this, but maybe Harvey Dent could do some investigating of his own based on this (on his own time, of course, but this is the sort of thing he does, as is evident in the first chapter of 'The Long Halloween'). I'm not sure what the legal conditions of that are, but I do know that Harvey is more willing to push the limits of the law than Gordon is. The Batman and Dent should be shown as more similar than either of them is to Gordon. That's why it was so easy for Harvey to snap, and Gordon survived 'The Killing Joke' with his sanity and spirit intact. That's my take on it, anyway.
The Batman can listen in on conversations and record them for reviewing later, but what he does from there with regard to the police is simply given Gordon a tip, or hand over some admissible evidence that he finds due to the clues/leads in the conversation.

Pictures have more leeway with the legal process, I think, or at least we can show that in the movie. I'm not going to use 'Batman Begins' as a general example of what I feel we could get away with if we actually made this movie, and you should realize that the Batman was actually giving Dawes and Finch material to possibly blackmail Judge Faden, not necessarily get him charged with anything. In any case, pictures are more plausible, and legitimate documents taken as well. If the Batman acts of his own accord, I think Gordon and Dent have their hands clean if he drops a ledger or journal that he stole at their feet and disappears.

He should use the micro-camera while in costume as well as in disguise, however briefly in either case. I want it shown he uses the same detective skills resardless of his garb, and the only reason for dressing as something other than the Batman is to access certain venues or just hang about unnoticed. It sometimes speeds things up, as the Batman has to hide in the shadows unless he's willing to throw down on someone, and that could easily escalate into a very dangrous situation and/or attract police attention.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]He'll also study a sample of rare-birdseed to deduce what species it belongs to, which would be one lead in discovering The Penguin.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

One way I could see this working is if the Penguin was trafficking drugs and hiding the product in large bags of birdseed (hey, Tony Soprano kept some off-the-record cash behind his house in a big container of duck feed, so why not?). Wait... not drugs, or least not only drugs... weapons! The Penguin is more of a weapons kinda guy, and in a particular way, too. I'd want him to be doing two different things here:
1) Trafficking regular firearms in general.
2) Backing the manufacture, shipping and distribution of guns, knives and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]short-range [/FONT][FONT=&quot]chemical weapons (like mace and such) that are disguised as innocuous objects (like umbrellas, canes, and more common items) custom-made for convicted felons who are prohibited from carrying or owning weapons (like himself). He will, of course, save the best weapons (automatics, best ammunition, etc.) only for himself.

The Batman could tie the Penguin to the arms trafficking through various methods of detection (the birdseed coming into it) stemming from the big umbrellas 'n birds fight. The Batman gets a taste of the new flavor of crime that will characterize Gotham City from here on out, and he'll adapt his tactics for the next time (and for other foes, as he'll summon bats to distract the police in the big cop fight, inspired by the Penguin having used birds against him). After the Batman takes care of some other business (helping to remove Commissioner Gillian Loeb from office and take several dirty cops off the job, putting a dent in the Falcone organization and of course changing the underworld's schema so that most criminals fear him), he comes back for the Penguin, catching him off-guard and tranquilizing his attack birds immediately, telling him that he's tipped the police to the arms dealing operation and that they're executing take-downs at the very moment. The Penguin will claim that if there ever was evidence that could tie him to the operation, it's been destroyed, and his men are too afraid of him to testify against him, even when facing long sentences. The Batman will say that he is not afraid of the Penguin, and then he holds him out the window and dangles him over the street. He asks the Penguin why he shouldn't just let him drop, and Cobblepot says he's a good source of information. He can give him tips once in a while. The Batman says that the Penguin will now cough up any info he asks from him, and he is not to be directly involved in crime from now on. Penguin asks, "Even gambling?" The Batman tells him he can play his little games all he wants, but if someone gets their legs or fingers or whatever broken because they couldn't make good on their debts, the Batman will break the Penguin's legs or fingers or whatever. Got it? Good. By the way, "Your birds aren't dead, they're just sleeping. This time."

If you have any other ideas for Batman's forensics and detective work in this movie, please share them. The detective side to Batman, aswell as his origin, are two of the most important facets to his character in my opinion, and I want these aspects to shine for the movie.

I would still like the first time the Batman learns about the umbrella-guns to be when the Penguin uses one or two on him during their encounter. He can find birdseed on his suit (like from when he dove behind a container of seed for cover and it sprayed all over when shots followed the Batman there) after the encounter and then run some searches on it that lead to the discovery that Cobblepot has enormous amounts of this seed shipped to him every few weeks. He uses the seed to feed the many birds he has in his office and/or home, but he'd have to own hundreds of birds to actually require that much. Sure, it's always good to have a lot so you don't have to go shopping or shipping for a while, but at the rate the shipments are coming in (again, it's at several week intervals), he'll never run out and he has an enormous surplus. There's a new shipment coming in soon and the Batman checks it out to see 1) if there's a way to use these shipments to infiltrate his well-armed organization, and 2) if there's something being hidden in these shipments, because again, that's a $hitload o' birdseed!

The Batman will discover guns in the crates, and also more umbrella-guns, cane-swords, etc. He'll track some of these custom-made weapons (with tracers, most likely) and find out that they are being sold to ex-convicts-- people who aren't allowed to own or carry deadly weapons. It would play out towards the end like I said up above. This is all a sub-plot that connects at certain junctures but is mostly separate from the major 'Year One' plot elements. It gives the Penguin a purpose in the criminal underworld, and the fact that the Batman squashes this operation just means the Penguin will be the only one who knows where the rest of the umbrella-guns, etc. are stashed.


I also have the beginnings of a plot sketch where the Batman traces an umbrella-gun to the birdseed to the Penguin instead of the other way around, but for it to make any sense whatsoever for the Penguin to catch the Batman off-guard with his customized weaponry and make the scene I have in mind (and have already described in past statements), it has to be the way I just described above.


Nothing much else comes to mind at the moment, but I do think the forensics and other detection skills can be well put to use in tracking down the highly secretive weapons smuggling operation run by the Penguin. I don't think there's much forensics involved in taking down the major players in the corrupt GCPD, just surveillance, research and violence.

Criminalistics and other lab work will come into it more in the second film, where several people are poisoned. Whereas the Batman would usually go bar-hopping for knowledgable thugs (or to the Penguin, for some people) to find out where certain gangsters can be found, the Joker's comings and goings are far less known to the underworld community, especially in the beginning. The Batman might have to use various lab analyses to figure out where the Joker is holed up, or at least where he's been recently before a crime was committed.

The second movie should still be rooted in a noir style, like all of them, even though the Joker is arguably from another genre altogether. 'BATMAN' and 'Batman: the Animated Series' were also noir-style stories that included the Joker acting in character, so I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination. It'll be hard to do, but that's how it is when you're working with classic characters that have already been done very well in previous works.


By the way, just a bit of future continuity:
By the end of the second movie, the top-dog smuggler will be Anthony Zucco, since the Penguin's escalating smuggling career was cut short by the Batman and our hero has shut down most of the routes and methods open to the Penguin. By the third movie the Batman is still going strong (if a bit more unstable since Harvey Dent's maiming and his disappearing from the hospital) and the police department is cleaner and more effective, so arms and drug smuggling in general is a lot tougher than it used to be. Zucco will resort to more innovative methods, like using a circus for his operations (which is from 'Dark Victory' and the one that better suits our story, whereas the early comics and TAS origins for Robin had Zucco merely extorting Haley, the circus owner). When Haley won't cooperate, Zucco has goons leftover from the Maroni family sabotage the acrobats' trapeze wires with acid-- the same acid that was used to scar Harvey Dent (also from 'Dark Victory,' which allows for an easy and ready-made way for the Batman to find out who is responsible for the Graysons' deaths).
Continuity... it's what's for dinner, b1tches.


[/FONT]

 

[Zaphod]

Bruce Wayne was not disillusioned with the criminal justice system when he was in FBI training. He was disillusioned with the FBI. You've strayed from that considerably by making this about a trial. I'm not even entirely sure what's taking place here; Bruce is an observer in the court's gallery, just taking notes on what's going on, right? He could do that in Gotham City at age 14, which is exactly what should happen if there is any need for a trial at all in Bruce's origin story.

Point taken. Well, Bruce would have been sitting in the gallery as a part of an exercise from he FBI, we'd see a showcase of Bruce's deduction and psychology, through which he'll verify in his own mind's eye that the defendant is in fact guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

He could do this in Gotham City, your right. Perhaps something to keep in mind when fleshing out Bruce's childhood scenes at age 14?

Again, Bruce is going to help the criminal justice system no matter what, since he won't kill. It's the difference between the Punisher and the Batman; Frank Castle doesn't give a damn whether or not the system works, because ain't nobody goin' to jail if he has his way. The Batman is going to hand these mopes over to the cops or leave them gift-wrapped to be arrested. Thus, it's not about being disillusioned with the system. It's a matter of Bruce realizing that he doesn't have enough control over anything as an FBI trainee and probably won't as an agent, which is why he goes another route.

You see, I wasn't opposing this idea in the first place, in fact, it was at the forefront of the trial-scenario, and one of the reasons he would leave the FBI after the hearing in the first place. I wanted to show that Bruce, while witnessing the defendant's aquittal, realizes that the criminal-element have far to much influence in comparison to his status as a mere trainee and potential agent, within the system and out of it (since they are capable of intimidating a witness in order to stop them from giving a testimony), that he left and chose a different path. Another idea came to me:

The FBI are relying on the suspects prosecution, in order to be allowed to formulate enough leverage against the accused's organization so that they can launch an aggressive investigation into their drug/rackteering circle. Bruce is sent to the trial along with a host of other trainee's to oversee the event take place, still as a part of an excerise, but Bruce and the trainee's would know of the importance it has to the bureau's future investigations. Naturally, things go awry and the FBI dont get their investigation, causing Bruce to leave?

It's just something I thought up then and there, so be honest on how it works. Not that you would be otherwise.

I think a trial could work well, but not in D.C. Nowhere but Gotham. It weakens the story considerably to show the criminal justice system failing outside of Gotham. People would wonder what the hell is the point of the Batman coming back to and staying in Gotham City? Why doesn't he track the most important cases all over the country (or world, for that matter) and seek to help law enforcement wherever he's "needed"? For all the travelling and experience he's had Batman has blinders on when it comes to his mission, as in generally only sees Gotham as a place that needs protecting. The audience needs to have those exact same blinders on.

I did have one idea, which I held back posting before, but that I guess is worth at least sharing.

What about having the trial in 'Chicago', with the defendant and his criminal-organization somehow linked to Falcone, or one of his sons/family members? It was established in 'Year One' I think, that Falcone controlled alot of the organized crime in 'Chicago 'and other areas, aswell as Gotham? This way you avoid making Gotham seem less corrupt in comparison to other places since it would be Falcone who is mentioned as being the crime-boss who causes such corruption in places like Gotham and Chicago anyway? I would have a short-exchange between Bruce and the Section-Chief, in which the Chief says to Bruce that 'the Faclone family has it's operations sealed air-tight in Gotham, but their recent slip-up in Chicago provides a rare opportunity' (he would be speaking in terms relying on the prosecution of the suspect, in order to garner an investigation). That's not to say that it is only Falcone who is responsible for Gothams state of affairs, although he is a major part of it, but it was just an idea anyway. I'm aware this takes priority away from Washington, but Bruce would still be seen training at the academy in Washington in any case. Let me know what you think of this, if it can be used at all, or if it is completely contrived and redundant.

I cannot sign off on a D.C. trial. I think I can help shape ideas if it's a Gotham City trial, though, and I do believe that if we went that route-- and it would be a far more corruption-based scenario, rather than a show of incompetence by the police and prosecutors-- that would strengthen the themes of fear, the terrible consequences of corruption (drug dealers and murders being spit back out by the system into the population where they casn repeat their offenses), and the Batman's obsession with protecting Gotham City.

Let me know what you think of the two ideas I posted above, if those aren't in any way amenable to you, then we can go this route for the 'Bruce in Gotham' scenes instead.

[FONT=&quot]

Hey, I could work with 3.5 hours. But I'll be merciful on Cullen's fragile bladder (he's a feeble old man, you know) and leave it at three. That leaves about one hour for the Batman to get into his Batsuit.

Sounds good

If the Batman records conversations, the only way that's useful is for his own edification, so he knows he's on the right track. It cannot be used as evidence, and he shouldn't even be presenting that kind of evidence to Jim Gordon, since Gordon is generally a by-the-book cop and he doesn't cotton to eating fruit from the poisonous tree. I can't be sure about this, but maybe Harvey Dent could do some investigating of his own based on this (on his own time, of course, but this is the sort of thing he does, as is evident in the first chapter of 'The Long Halloween'). I'm not sure what the legal conditions of that are, but I do know that Harvey is more willing to push the limits of the law than Gordon is. The Batman and Dent should be shown as more similar than either of them is to Gordon. That's why it was so easy for Harvey to snap, and Gordon survived 'The Killing Joke' with his sanity and spirit intact. That's my take on it, anyway.
The Batman can listen in on conversations and record them for reviewing later, but what he does from there with regard to the police is simply given Gordon a tip, or hand over some admissible evidence that he finds due to the clues/leads in the conversation.

Sounds good

Pictures have more leeway with the legal process, I think, or at least we can show that in the movie. I'm not going to use 'Batman Begins' as a general example of what I feel we could get away with if we actually made this movie, and you should realize that the Batman was actually giving Dawes and Finch material to possibly blackmail Judge Faden, not necessarily get him charged with anything. In any case, pictures are more plausible, and legitimate documents taken as well. If the Batman acts of his own accord, I think Gordon and Dent have their hands clean if he drops a ledger or journal that he stole at their feet and disappears.

Both photographic and documentary evidence will be at the forefront of Batman's investigation. I've already drawn up scenes for this.

He should use the micro-camera while in costume as well as in disguise, however briefly in either case. I want it shown he uses the same detective skills resardless of his garb, and the only reason for dressing as something other than the Batman is to access certain venues or just hang about unnoticed. It sometimes speeds things up, as the Batman has to hide in the shadows unless he's willing to throw down on someone, and that could easily escalate into a very dangrous situation and/or attract police attention.

This is exactly what I am going for. You'll see when I post them, but many of my scenario's involve Bruce in and out of the Bat-suit, in order to gain evidence and investigate leads. He will use the micro-camera, as I've said before. I have also drawn up an idea whereby Batman uses a modified-camera on a routine timer, wired up and linked to operational CCTV, in order to capture images of some criminal-operations as they take place, so he can cover ground in two places at once.

A response to your Penguin ideas is pending.
[/FONT]

 

[Herr Logan]

Point taken. Well, Bruce would have been sitting in the gallery as a part of an exercise from he FBI, we'd see a showcase of Bruce's deduction and psychology, through which he'll verify in his own mind's eye that the defendant is in fact guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

He could do this in Gotham City, your right. Perhaps something to keep in mind when fleshing out Bruce's childhood scenes at age 14?

Considering Bruce would be taking criminology classes at Gotham University in his early teens (before he leaves Gotham), there's plenty of good reason right there why he should be sitting in on trials. Hell, I went to the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia just yesterday to do an assignment for my criminal justice class. Bruce Wayne should be doing the same kinds of observation reports (we don't need to show or explain what kinds of assignments he has, or even state that he's visit courtrooms for the class-- I'm just telling you there's plenty of legitimacy to it if the audience will buy that Bruce is a "Doogie Houser" prodigy who takes college classes at age 14).

Like I said, I can't sign off on a D.C. trial, but a Gotham City trial, if kept brief and to the point with the help of voiceover narrative, would fit perfectly.

I did have one idea, which I held back posting before, but that I guess is worth at least sharing.

What about having the trial in 'Chicago', with the defendant and his criminal-organization somehow linked to Falcone, or one of his sons/family members? It was established in 'Year One' I think, that Falcone controlled alot of the organized crime in 'Chicago 'and other areas, aswell as Gotham? This way you avoid making Gotham seem less corrupt in comparison to other places since it would be Falcone who is mentioned as being the crime-boss who causes such corruption in places like Gotham and Chicago anyway? I would have a short-exchange between Bruce and the Section-Chief, in which the Chief says to Bruce that 'the Faclone family has it's operations sealed air-tight in Gotham, but their recent slip-up in Chicago provides a rare opportunity' (he would be speaking in terms relying on the prosecution of the suspect, in order to garner an investigation). That's not to say that it is only Falcone who is responsible for Gothams state of affairs, although he is a major part of it, but it was just an idea anyway. I'm aware this takes priority away from Washington, but Bruce would still be seen training at the academy in Washington in any case. Let me know what you think of this, if it can be used at all, or if it is completely contrived and redundant.

Let me know what you think of the two ideas I posted above, if those aren't in any way amenable to you, then we can go this route for the 'Bruce in Gotham' scenes instead.

I wouldn't have a trial set in Chicago, either. Not even if it was from Gordon's point of view.

Carmine Falcone was said to have influence or control in Chicago? I thought that Carla Falcone was in an equivalent position to Carmine and they only associated with each other at family functions and meetings relating thereto. She's "The Roman's" sister, who is the head of a Falcone organization in Chicago. I know they don't get along and Carmine is wary of his sister, but I suppose they could be working together in some fashion, as a united family. I know Carmine doesn't directly control Chicago, though.
I'd have Gordon mention to Harvey Dent that he's familiar with Carla Falcone, but I wouldn't make any subplots out of it. It's mostly a nod to continuity (or at least the continuity of 'The Long Halloween,' which came out in the late mid- to late 90's and may clash a bit with previous continuity... eh, whatever), so the audience knows that the people behind the story know their Goddamn comics, unlike some other superhero movie producers.

All the organized crime shown in the United States should occur in Gotham City.


By the way, there may or may not be an FBI academy in Washington, D.C., but the main one is in Quantico, Virginia.

[FONT=&quot]

Both photographic and documentary evidence will be at the forefront of Batman's investigation. I've already drawn up scenes for this.

Splendid!

This is exactly what I am going for. You'll see when I post them, but many of my scenario's involve Bruce in and out of the Bat-suit, in order to gain evidence and investigate leads. He will use the micro-camera, as I've said before. I have also drawn up an idea whereby Batman uses a modified-camera on a routine timer, wired up and linked to operational CCTV, in order to capture images of some criminal-operations as they take place, so he can cover ground in two places at once.

A response to your Penguin ideas is pending.

Sounds great. I look forwarding to reading all over that.

Let me know if you want me to e-mail you the Batman-themed affidavit I wrote for a criminal justice class last semester. You can give me your e-mail address via PM.


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[The Joker]

Ok here are my ideas for how I would treat Doctor Octopus in the movies.Basically these ideas are inspired from ASM#3,Spider-Man 2,and the episode 'Doctor Octopus:Armed and Dangerous' from the 90's cartoon show.

I would have Octavius introduced as a scientist working for a major scientific research company [not Oscorp].I don't want Octavius to have any ties to Oscorp.I didn't have a problem with it in SM-2,but I personally would prefer if he was working in a seperate independant company.
Doctor Otto Octavius is one of the country's top 10 physicists,specializing in the areas of nuclear fission and fusion.He has spent the last 10 years of his life doing ground breaking research in the area of fusion.He believes fusion reaction can be generated in a battery,thus providing an amount of power so great that it could replace dozens of nuclear power plants.
Though his peers are skeptical of some of his radical ideas,investors and other major researchers financing his research work have been impressed with his progress over the past 5 years,and want to see more.
Otto Octavius is known among his colleagues as an extremely arrogant and egotistical man.Though his dedication to his work is admired,his unpleasant manner and attitude towards others makes it very difficult to work with him.
Now the infamous introduction of his tentacles would be done like this: I would have some young poor sap lab assistant bringing some chemical or whatever to Octavius' lab.I would have him meet some of the other scientists on his way,who say something along the lines of "Are you taking that to Doctor Octopus?? His lab is on the 3rd floor".And of course the lab assistant would quiz as to why do they call him Doctor Octopus.To which they'll simply remark "You'll see when you get there".When the guy get's there,he sees the tentacles on a little platform with a control panel,similar to that in SM-2.
Unable to resist his curiosity,I'd have the young lab assistant go over to look at them,and just as he is about to touch them Octavius interrupts with a vicious warning that if he does touch them,it will set off a deadly security system,as the arms are under a security locking system which can only be unlocked using Octavius' hand on a scanner panel.

Now for the Peter Parker connection.While I know they never met in the comics prior to Octavius becoming a super villain,I had absolutely no problem with Peter knowing Octavius before he became Ock in the 90's cartoon.And it was used very effectively in it.SM-2 had the opportunity to do something similar,but instead wasted it with talks of love poetry and other BS in an attempt to make it feel personal between Peter and Octavius for when Octavius becomes a villain.That is not the nature of their relationship.The most Peter should feel for Octavius is respect for his great scientific mind.Looking at Octavius as his scientific idol.Nothing more.It is not personal between Spider-Man and Ock,unless Ock does something that personally affects Spider-Man's life,like the Aunt May debacle or bashing Black Cat to near death.
Now in my movie,Peter will be a keen admirer of Octavius' work for years.And similar to SM-2,Peter will have a paper or project to do on fusion,and in turn manages to arrange a meeting with Octavius with the help of Curt Connors,or possibly from Harry thru Oscorp's connections.When they meet,Octavius is thoroughly irritated to have to waste his precious time entertaining students.However Peter tells him he's been a great admirer of Octavius' work for years.Not so easily convinced,Octavius would say something like "Really?? So you've read all my published papers then??".Peter would reply "Of course.Sustained fusion fission reactions,neurochemical fusion".And Octavius would say casually "What about Fusion potential of the super collider??".Peter would look confused for a moment and say "You never wrote that.You were testing me weren't you??".And Octavius would offer his first genuine smile "And you passed".
From there I would have Peter demonstrate his knowledge in the area of fusion,and have Octavius seem genuinely impressed with this keen young man who seems to have a genuine interest in science.In fact in their discussion I might even have Octavius make a reference to his young days when he was learning about this stuff with great enthusiasm,much like Peter.Just to show the similarities between them.Also I think by having Peter meet Octavius,it gives him a better understanding of the man.

Now for the transformation to villainy.Octavius has learned that he has been given the green light to demonstrate that the fusion reaction can be generated in a battery.They seem so convinced by his theories that they're willing to see a demonstration.So there's a major demonstration,similar to that in SM-2,where various investors,researchers and other scientists in the field have come to witness Octavius' big breakthrough.
In the demonstration,we would see Octavius unveil the tentacles,put his hand on the little panel scanner,unlocking the security mechanisms.He would then explain the purpose of the arms,in that they do contain an artificial intelligence programmed to control and sustain fusion reactions.But they are NOT smart enough or capable of messing with his mind or influencing his actions in ANY way.The arms would plug into his spine exactly like in SM-2,with the same tentacle look and design.
Octavius would be standing behind safety glass to protect himself from the heat of the reaction.There are specially designed slots in the glass so the arms can pass thru to manipulate the fusion rection."With these smart arms I can make fusion energy my servant".I might even have a few people whisper to eachother "Doctor Octopus goes to work" as he starts using the arms.
The fusion reaction is fired up,and Octavius begins to increase the size of the fusion reaction.The bigger it is,the more power it can generate.However the safety alarm begins to sound,as the reaction is beginning to give off intense heat and energy bursts.The lab technicians and other spectators begin to clear the room in panic,as security guards come in and go to unplug the reactor chamber.Octavius spots them and viciously swipes them away with a tentacle,believing he can cause it to stabilise,believing he has it under control.However the energy intensity becomes too great,and the fusion chamber explodes in a burst of heat and energy.

Octavius survives,and is taken to an expensive private hospital courtesy of his company,who are trying to keep the accident hush hush.However the press get wind of the explosion,and Jameson sends Peter to try and get photos of the injured scientist Otto Octavius,as he believes there's some big cover up going on,and he wants the scoop on it.
Meanwhile in the hospital we learn from the doctors who have X-Rayed him,that Octavius' metal arms have been fused to his spinal chord as a result of the accident.He has some second and third degree burns on his chest and torso,and some minor trauma to his head and neck as a result of the explosion.Octavius awakes in a private hospital room with IV drips,heart monitors and other medical equipment attached to him.He demands to know where he is and what's happened.One of the nurses brings in two of his work colleagues,who briefly explain that the fusion reaction went unstable,that he took it too far,endangered many lives and cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages.Not to mention the media is making a huge frenzy out of it.They're trying to hold off a horde of reporters at the hospital gates.They tell him that the investors have pulled the plug on his research money,and that the company is shutting down all his projects for the forseeable future.
Octavius protests in anger that they cannot do this to him.It's his life's work,his precious research.But his colleagues tell him that it's done.And that he may want to get a lawyer because several of the company exceutives and investors are suing him for his careless actions and endangerment of human life.

After his two colleagues leave,Octavius is left to stew in his bed at what has just happened.Two doctors and a nurse come into his room shortly after and tell him that they need to prep him for surgery tomorrow,as he has an unknown amount of spinal damage,and they need to remove his mechanical arms as soon as possible.Octavius refuses,saying he needs to leave here and retrieve his research data from the filthy parasites who intend to take it from him.But the doctors tell him that's impossible.He's sustained very serious injuries and that he must stay in bed.
At this point Octavius has reached boiling point with his anger.He says thru clenched teeth "You dare to tell me what to do.Do you think you can keep me a prisoner here?? Do you think you can keep me from my precious work,like those other fools are trying to do.DO YOU?!?!?".At that point his 4 mechanical arms come to life and lash out with the speed of thought swiping the two doctors against the wall with such a force that it renders them unconcious.The nurse flees in terror from the room and hits a silent panic alarm on the wall alerting security.
Octavius rises from his bed,propped by two of his tentacles.He watches with extreme amusement as they move around him at his very thoughts.As though they were his own flesh and blood arms."I can feel you" he almost whispers to them."I can feel you as intimately as I feel the flesh I was born with".
He then strides out of his room on two tentacles and down the hospital corridor.At the other end of the corridor 4 security guards are approaching.Two of them rush at Octavius to try to subdue him.But he merely grips them each in a tentacle before they can get remotely close to him.He then snaps their necks like twigs.The other two guards open fire on him at seeing this.He easily deflects the bullets with his tentacles,as he moves swiftly down the corridor at them,and sends them smashing head first into a wall.
Octavius then turns and finds several of the staff fleeing down the other end of the corridor towards the elevator.Moving swifly on his tentacles,he flexes out a tentacle and smashes the elevator control panel before they can use it.Cowering in the elevator,Octavius advances on them and smiles wickedly."If you'd all be so kind as to follow me and do as I say,you may yet live thru this night".

Meanwhile outside at the main hospital gates,the press are still being held off by the security gate guards.Parker decides enough is enough,and he is going to get pics of Octavius in his own way.So he slips off and changes to Spider-Man.He then easily scales the fence and makes it to the hospital building unnoticed.As he's scaling the hospital wall,he hears some faint female screams and shouting coming from one of the hospital labs above.He then feels his spidey sense tingling,which leads him to the window in question where the commotion is coming from.
Peering thru the window he sees several nurses,doctors and a janitor cowering on the floor in a corner.The camera then pans along as we see two tentacles wavering at them,almost look at them.Then another two multi-tasking on a lab bench,pouring and mixing chemicals in beakers,heating some of them over a bunsen burner.While Octavius himself,now dressed in a simple business suit,is standing with his arms folded,as he observes his hostages in the corner,while he briefly glances back at his little experiment on the lab bench.

"Please Doctor Octavius" one of the doctors says."We've gotten you some clothes and the materials you asked for.When will you let us go??".Octavius waves a hand at him contemptously."Not until I'm ready.Your second rate lab will be useful to me to for making several chemicals I shall find uselful in my forthcoming venture.And you shall all remain here as my hostages to ensure I am not interrupted".
"But this is crazy.The police will soon hear of this.You can't keep us here much longer.You have no right....".The doctor's sentence is cut off as he is lifted off the ground by two of Octavius' tentacles,and dangled helplessly in front of him."Right?? You dare speak to me of right.I have the right to do anything as long as I have the power.Power is everything you simple minded fool.It can shake the world to it's very core.And if you doubt my power,then here is a small sample".
At this point Spider-Man decides this would be a good time to interrupt before Octavius really hurts that doctor.He bursts in thru the window and says "Hold it Doc,how about picking on someone who can fight you back".
Octavius tosses the doctor aside and faces Spider-Man."Spider-Man,the costumed fool who crawls like the insect he is.Well I shall be very glad to crush you for this transgression"."Tell me,are you a Three Stooges fan?? Your haircut just screams Mo Howard" Spider-Man quips.Octavius attacks him with two of his tentacles.Spider-Man flips and dodges them,and in his cocky arrogance makes some quip about Octavius being too slow to hit him,but he is suddenly knocked backwards by a powerful blow from a third tentacle which caught him off guard.
"Troublesome fool.You should have fled while you had the chance" Ock says as he tries to snare Spider-Man with two tentacles.But Spider-Man shoots his web binding two of Octavius' tentacles together.However to his surprise he easily snaps the webbing as if it was string.Cornered,Spider-Man is snared in Octavius' tentacles,as he is reeled in and is helpless before Octavius,who b1tch slaps him across the face and sneers "You dared to mock me before.Why aren't you mocking me now?? Where are your brave words and taunts now Spider-Man??".

Octavius then carries Spider-Man towards the window and tosses him out shouting "You may leave the way you entered.You're no threat to me".Spider-Man hits the ground outside,defeated and humiliated.Meanwhile Octavius decides to flee the hospital,as his hostages have escaped during the battle with Spider-Man.He smashes thru a wall and scales down the building and makes off into the night.


Ok that's all I have so far.Comments,criticisms and whatever else you all have to say about it would be appreciated I shall post the rest of my ideas on what Ock get's up to,how he names himself Doctor Octopus,how Spidey names him Doc Ock,and how he defeats Ock.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Ock i will read what is no doubt the definitive idea for the use of Doc Ock later but right now all i have to say is

PIANO WIELDING SON OF SUPERMAN

 

[Herr Logan]

Ok here are my ideas for how I would treat Doctor Octopus in the movies.Basically these ideas are inspired from ASM#3,Spider-Man 2,and the episode 'Doctor Octopus:Armed and Dangerous' from the 90's cartoon show.

I would have Octavius introduced as a scientist working for a major scientific research company [not Oscorp].I don't want Octavius to have any ties to Oscorp.I didn't have a problem with it in SM-2,but I personally would prefer if he was working in a seperate independant company.
Doctor Otto Octavius is one of the country's top 10 physicists,specializing in the areas of nuclear fission and fusion.He has spent the last 10 years of his life doing ground breaking research in the area of fusion.He believes fusion reaction can be generated in a battery,thus providing an amount of power so great that it could replace dozens of nuclear power plants.
Though his peers are skeptical of some of his radical ideas,investors and other major researchers financing his research work have been impressed with his progress over the past 5 years,and want to see more.
Otto Octavius is known among his colleagues as an extremely arrogant and egotistical man.Though his dedication to his work is admired,his unpleasant manner and attitude towards others makes it very difficult to work with him.
Now the infamous introduction of his tentacles would be done like this: I would have some young poor sap lab assistant bringing some chemical or whatever to Octavius' lab.I would have him meet some of the other scientists on his way,who say something along the lines of "Are you taking that to Doctor Octopus?? His lab is on the 3rd floor".And of course the lab assistant would quiz as to why do they call him Doctor Octopus.To which they'll simply remark "You'll see when you get there".When the guy get's there,he sees the tentacles on a little platform with a control panel,similar to that in SM-2.
Unable to resist his curiosity,I'd have the young lab assistant go over to look at them,and just as he is about to touch them Octavius interrupts with a vicious warning that if he does touch them,it will set off a deadly security system,as the arms are under a security locking system which can only be unlocked using Octavius' hand on a scanner panel.

Now for the Peter Parker connection.While I know they never met in the comics prior to Octavius becoming a super villain,I had absolutely no problem with Peter knowing Octavius before he became Ock in the 90's cartoon.And it was used very effectively in it.SM-2 had the opportunity to do something similar,but instead wasted it with talks of love poetry and other BS in an attempt to make it feel personal between Peter and Octavius for when Octavius becomes a villain.That is not the nature of their relationship.The most Peter should feel for Octavius is respect for his great scientific mind.Looking at Octavius as his scientific idol.Nothing more.It is not personal between Spider-Man and Ock,unless Ock does something that personally affects Spider-Man's life,like the Aunt May debacle or bashing Black Cat to near death.
Now in my movie,Peter will be a keen admirer of Octavius' work for years.And similar to SM-2,Peter will have a paper or project to do on fusion,and in turn manages to arrange a meeting with Octavius with the help of Curt Connors,or possibly from Harry thru Oscorp's connections.When they meet,Octavius is thoroughly irritated to have to waste his precious time entertaining students.However Peter tells him he's been a great admirer of Octavius' work for years.Not so easily convinced,Octavius would say something like "Really?? So you've read all my published papers then??".Peter would reply "Of course.Sustained fusion fission reactions,neurochemical fusion".And Octavius would say casually "What about Fusion potential of the super collider??".Peter would look confused for a moment and say "You never wrote that.You were testing me weren't you??".And Octavius would offer his first genuine smile "And you passed".
From there I would have Peter demonstrate his knowledge in the area of fusion,and have Octavius seem genuinely impressed with this keen young man who seems to have a genuine interest in science.In fact in their discussion I might even have Octavius make a reference to his young days when he was learning about this stuff with great enthusiasm,much like Peter.Just to show the similarities between them.Also I think by having Peter meet Octavius,it gives him a better understanding of the man.

Now for the transformation to villainy.Octavius has learned that he has been given the green light to demonstrate that the fusion reaction can be generated in a battery.They seem so convinced by his theories that they're willing to see a demonstration.So there's a major demonstration,similar to that in SM-2,where various investors,researchers and other scientists in the field have come to witness Octavius' big breakthrough.
In the demonstration,we would see Octavius unveil the tentacles,put his hand on the little panel scanner,unlocking the security mechanisms.He would then explain the purpose of the arms,in that they do contain an artificial intelligence programmed to control and sustain fusion reactions.But they are NOT smart enough or capable of messing with his mind or influencing his actions in ANY way.The arms would plug into his spine exactly like in SM-2,with the same tentacle look and design.
Octavius would be standing behind safety glass to protect himself from the heat of the reaction.There are specially designed slots in the glass so the arms can pass thru to manipulate the fusion rection."With these smart arms I can make fusion energy my servant".I might even have a few people whisper to eachother "Doctor Octopus goes to work" as he starts using the arms.
The fusion reaction is fired up,and Octavius begins to increase the size of the fusion reaction.The bigger it is,the more power it can generate.However the safety alarm begins to sound,as the reaction is beginning to give off intense heat and energy bursts.The lab technicians and other spectators begin to clear the room in panic,as security guards come in and go to unplug the reactor chamber.Octavius spots them and viciously swipes them away with a tentacle,believing he can cause it to stabilise,believing he has it under control.However the energy intensity becomes too great,and the fusion chamber explodes in a burst of heat and energy.

Octavius survives,and is taken to an expensive private hospital courtesy of his company,who are trying to keep the accident hush hush.However the press get wind of the explosion,and Jameson sends Peter to try and get photos of the injured scientist Otto Octavius,as he believes there's some big cover up going on,and he wants the scoop on it.
Meanwhile in the hospital we learn from the doctors who have X-Rayed him,that Octavius' metal arms have been fused to his spinal chord as a result of the accident.He has some second and third degree burns on his chest and torso,and some minor trauma to his head and neck as a result of the explosion.Octavius awakes in a private hospital room with IV drips,heart monitors and other medical equipment attached to him.He demands to know where he is and what's happened.One of the nurses brings in two of his work colleagues,who briefly explain that the fusion reaction went unstable,that he took it too far,endangered many lives and cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages.Not to mention the media is making a huge frenzy out of it.They're trying to hold off a horde of reporters at the hospital gates.They tell him that the investors have pulled the plug on his research money,and that the company is shutting down all his projects for the forseeable future.
Octavius protests in anger that they cannot do this to him.It's his life's work,his precious research.But his colleagues tell him that it's done.And that he may want to get a lawyer because several of the company exceutives and investors are suing him for his careless actions and endangerment of human life.

After his two colleagues leave,Octavius is left to stew in his bed at what has just happened.Two doctors and a nurse come into his room shortly after and tell him that they need to prep him for surgery tomorrow,as he has an unknown amount of spinal damage,and they need to remove his mechanical arms as soon as possible.Octavius refuses,saying he needs to leave here and retrieve his research data from the filthy parasites who intend to take it from him.But the doctors tell him that's impossible.He's sustained very serious injuries and that he must stay in bed.
At this point Octavius has reached boiling point with his anger.He says thru clenched teeth "You dare to tell me what to do.Do you think you can keep me a prisoner here?? Do you think you can keep me from my precious work,like those other fools are trying to do.DO YOU?!?!?".At that point his 4 mechanical arms come to life and lash out with the speed of thought swiping the two doctors against the wall with such a force that it renders them unconcious.The nurse flees in terror from the room and hits a silent panic alarm on the wall alerting security.
Octavius rises from his bed,propped by two of his tentacles.He watches with extreme amusement as they move around him at his very thoughts.As though they were his own flesh and blood arms."I can feel you" he almost whispers to them."I can feel you as intimately as I feel the flesh I was born with".
He then strides out of his room on two tentacles and down the hospital corridor.At the other end of the corridor 4 security guards are approaching.Two of them rush at Octavius to try to subdue him.But he merely grips them each in a tentacle before they can get remotely close to him.He then snaps their necks like twigs.The other two guards open fire on him at seeing this.He easily deflects the bullets with his tentacles,as he moves swiftly down the corridor at them,and sends them smashing head first into a wall.
Octavius then turns and finds several of the staff fleeing down the other end of the corridor towards the elevator.Moving swifly on his tentacles,he flexes out a tentacle and smashes the elevator control panel before they can use it.Cowering in the elevator,Octavius advances on them and smiles wickedly."If you'd all be so kind as to follow me and do as I say,you may yet live thru this night".

Meanwhile outside at the main hospital gates,the press are still being held off by the security gate guards.Parker decides enough is enough,and he is going to get pics of Octavius in his own way.So he slips off and changes to Spider-Man.He then easily scales the fence and makes it to the hospital building unnoticed.As he's scaling the hospital wall,he hears some faint female screams and shouting coming from one of the hospital labs above.He then feels his spidey sense tingling,which leads him to the window in question where the commotion is coming from.
Peering thru the window he sees several nurses,doctors and a janitor cowering on the floor in a corner.The camera then pans along as we see two tentacles wavering at them,almost look at them.Then another two multi-tasking on a lab bench,pouring and mixing chemicals in beakers,heating some of them over a bunsen burner.While Octavius himself,now dressed in a simple business suit,is standing with his arms folded,as he observes his hostages in the corner,while he briefly glances back at his little experiment on the lab bench.

"Please Doctor Octavius" one of the doctors says."We've gotten you some clothes and the materials you asked for.When will you let us go??".Octavius waves a hand at him contemptously."Not until I'm ready.Your second rate lab will be useful to me to for making several chemicals I shall find uselful in my forthcoming venture.And you shall all remain here as my hostages to ensure I am not interrupted".
"But this is crazy.The police will soon hear of this.You can't keep us here much longer.You have no right....".The doctor's sentence is cut off as he is lifted off the ground by two of Octavius' tentacles,and dangled helplessly in front of him."Right?? You dare speak to me of right.I have the right to do anything as long as I have the power.Power is everything you simple minded fool.It can shake the world to it's very core.And if you doubt my power,then here is a small sample".
At this point Spider-Man decides this would be a good time to interrupt before Octavius really hurts that doctor.He bursts in thru the window and says "Hold it Doc,how about picking on someone who can fight you back".
Octavius tosses the doctor aside and faces Spider-Man."Spider-Man,the costumed fool who crawls like the insect he is.Well I shall be very glad to crush you for this transgression"."Tell me,are you a Three Stooges fan?? Your haircut just screams Mo Howard" Spider-Man quips.Octavius attacks him with two of his tentacles.Spider-Man flips and dodges them,and in his cocky arrogance makes some quip about Octavius being too slow to hit him,but he is suddenly knocked backwards by a powerful blow from a third tentacle which caught him off guard.
"Troublesome fool.You should have fled while you had the chance" Ock says as he tries to snare Spider-Man with two tentacles.But Spider-Man shoots his web binding two of Octavius' tentacles together.However to his surprise he easily snaps the webbing as if it was string.Cornered,Spider-Man is snared in Octavius' tentacles,as he is reeled in and is helpless before Octavius,who b1tch slaps him across the face and sneers "You dared to mock me before.Why aren't you mocking me now?? Where are your brave words and taunts now Spider-Man??".

Octavius then carries Spider-Man towards the window and tosses him out shouting "You may leave the way you entered.You're no threat to me".Spider-Man hits the ground outside,defeated and humiliated.Meanwhile Octavius decides to flee the hospital,as his hostages have escaped during the battle with Spider-Man.He smashes thru a wall and scales down the building and makes off into the night.


Ok that's all I have so far.Comments,criticisms and whatever else you all have to say about it would be appreciated I shall post the rest of my ideas on what Ock get's up to,how he names himself Doctor Octopus,how Spidey names him Doc Ock,and how he defeats Ock.

Magnificent! Way to go, Ock!

I like the interpersonal exchanges you described a lot, and I especially like this:
"Are you taking that to Doctor Octopus?? His lab is on the 3rd floor."
"Why do you call him Doctor Octopus?"
"You'll see when you get there".



A couple of comments on this:

I'm not entirely sure how you intended to visualize the fusion set-up and demonstration. I just hope that it wouldn't look anything like what it was in 'Spider-Man 2', because that was the most ridiculous, ignorant, irresponsible piece of pseudoscience since Movie!Magneto's mutant-making machine in 'X-Men.' Hell, having a miniature sun in a room with human beings where there is no physical barrier between them and the viewers aren't even wearing protective eyewear, that's worse than having the villain sell beauty cream that makes women's flesh as hard and durable as marble (from 'Catwoman'). I'm sure you had something better in mind than that, and I assume the glass barrier Otto is hiding behind is at least a foot thick, made of supposedly unbreakable Lexar glass, and that it's protecting all the spectators as well.

I personally would not have Octavius wearing a business suit in the hospital scene. I'd have him wearing scrubs, like a doctor, and then the next time we see him after he escapes, he'd have washed up and acquired some snazzy clothes. After all, "every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp-dressed man" (but only those with obscure paraphilias like Silver S would include a deranged, sociopathic cyborg like Doc Ock in that sentiment).
For the rest of Octavius' scenes in any of the movies, he'd be seen in simmilar dignified clothing, unless he's going to or coming from prison, and so forth.

Also, you mentioned that he would name himself. I thought he would just come to accept the name given to him by the news media, who got it from the police and also directly from his former colleagues.

I assume he'll say the line, "Silence! Nobody is to speak when Dr. Octopus speaks," later on in the movie, perhaps during a robbery or amongst his hired goons.

Thanks very much for posting, Ock. You put a lot of time and effort into this, and we appreciate it

 

[Herr Logan]

Ock i will read what is no doubt the definitive idea for the use of Doc Ock later but right now all i have to say is

PIANO WIELDING SON OF SUPERMAN

Explain yourself.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Explain yourself.

It's confirmed the kid is Supermans and he has a scene where he hits one of Lex's henchmen with a Piano which proves his parentage

 

[Herr Logan]

It's confirmed the kid is Supermans and he has a scene where he hits one of Lex's henchmen with a Piano which proves his parentage

Don't you bring that filth in here!! This is a sacred place of faithfulness and decency!!






I can't download the trailer for whatever reason. Thanks for the good news (although I'm being sarcastic, I absolutely think it's better that the kid is Supes' than Cyclops'... not that there should be any premise for such a choice whatsoever in the first place!!).

Now let us never speak of this in this thread again, unless you're describing a real (imaginary) Superman movie, with a real (imaginary) Superman, with a real (Reeves-style) Superman costume, and no motherfeckin' Super-babies!

 

[The Joker]

Magnificent! Way to go, Ock!

I like the interpersonal exchanges you described a lot, and I especially like this:
"Are you taking that to Doctor Octopus?? His lab is on the 3rd floor."
"Why do you call him Doctor Octopus?"
"You'll see when you get there".

Thank you.I'm not going to post a line for line description of the movie,I just wanted to throw in a few examples of the type of stuff I'd have the characters say.

I'm not entirely sure how you intended to visualize the fusion set-up and demonstration. I just hope that it wouldn't look anything like what it was in 'Spider-Man 2', because that was the most ridiculous, ignorant, irresponsible piece of pseudoscience since Movie!Magneto's mutant-making machine in 'X-Men.' Hell, having a miniature sun in a room with human beings where there is no physical barrier between them and the viewers aren't even wearing protective eyewear, that's worse than having the villain sell beauty cream that makes women's flesh as hard and durable as marble (from 'Catwoman'). I'm sure you had something better in mind than that, and I assume the glass barrier Otto is hiding behind is at least a foot thick, made of supposedly unbreakable Lexar glass, and that it's protecting all the spectators as well.

Damn I didn't make that clear enough in the post.I did say he was behind protective glass,and the fusion reaction was contained in a chamber.The glass had slots for the mechanical arms to slip thru.Somewhat similar to this:

So he can see what he's doing and at the same time he is protected from the intense heat coming off the reaction.

I personally would not have Octavius wearing a business suit in the hospital scene. I'd have him wearing scrubs, like a doctor, and then the next time we see him after he escapes, he'd have washed up and acquired some snazzy clothes.

I simply said he had a business suit that he made the staff get him to wear.I would have him don the snazzy white armani after he escapes.Also I would have him use the trenchcoat when going out in public.To conceal the tentacles of course.

But the hospital scrubs would work just fine too.I just like Ock looking his snazziest

Also, you mentioned that he would name himself. I thought he would just come to accept the name given to him by the news media, who got it from the police and also directly from his former colleagues.

Yes he is.I was going to have him see the media reports of his rampage at the hospital,and how he's been dubbed Doctor Octopus,thanks to the employees at the scientific company he used to work at,who blabbed it to the media in interviews.

Some headline like: DOCTOR OCTOPUS RAMPAGES AT PRIVATE HOSPITAL:Two dead,and three severely injured

I assume he'll say the line, "Silence! Nobody is to speak when Dr. Octopus speaks," later on in the movie, perhaps during a robbery or amongst his hired goons

Yes I'm saving that for a special occasion

Thanks very much for posting, Ock. You put a lot of time and effort into this, and we appreciate it

Glad you liked it.More coming soon.

 

[Herr Logan]

Thank you.I'm not going to post a line for line description of the movie,I just wanted to throw in a few examples of the type of stuff I'd have the characters say.




Damn I didn't make that clear enough in the post.I did say he was behind protective glass,and the fusion reaction was contained in a chamber.The glass had slots for the mechanical arms to slip thru.Somewhat similar to this:



So he can see what he's doing and at the same time he is protected from the intense heat coming off the reaction.

Ah, okay.

I simply said he had a business suit that he made the staff get him to wear.I would have him don the snazzy white armani after he escapes.Also I would have him use the trenchcoat when going out in public.To conceal the tentacles of course.

But the hospital scrubs would work just fine too.I just like Ock looking his snazziest

I understand. I just thought it would look more natural if he wore something simple and readily available (although it would have to be cut in the back so the tentacles could do their thing) when he first wakes up and comes to terms with his new appendages, and then upgrades when he has time to think about such things and find the proper fit (and make additional necessary alterations to accomodate his "unique" new figure... you can't have Dr. Octopus running around in a tattered, hastily cut three-piece suit!).

Yes he is.I was going to have him see the media reports of his rampage at the hospital,and how he's been dubbed Doctor Octopus,thanks to the employees at the scientific company he used to work at,who blabbed it to the media in interviews.

Some headline like: DOCTOR OCTOPUS RAMPAGES AT PRIVATE HOSPITAL:Two dead,and three severely injured

Sweet.

Yes I'm saving that for a special occasion

Aw, but I want it now...

*waits impatiently*

Glad you liked it.More coming soon.

Splendid!

 

[Herr Logan]

Anyone have further thoughts on content in these posts?:

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8625516&postcount=1206

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8636689&postcount=1212