Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Head>On<Collider]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting, Philly.

Marvel Films operates similarly to Marvel Comics in that it at least seems to give the directors or writers, respectively, a lot of freedom in bastardizing and dishonoring decades-old, classic characters as they choose to. It's hard for me to simply say they want to make a "quick buck," only because it does sometimes seem to me that they took some risks when making their poor adaptations. It seems like they took a risk when implanting the substance and style of a typical, insipid chick flick into and action movie with 'Spider-Man 2,' and also in creating 'Hulk' as a shallow, lowest-common-denominator excuse for a pop psychological thriller instead of a serious sci-fi movie. Still, they may well have gotten exactly those types of suggestions from whatever team of psych profilers they hire to help them tailor their half-assed works of art to the needs of the slovenly masses. If they are taking risks instead of playing it safe, then it's out of sheer arrogance, rather than their faith in the source material. I can't tell what's going on in their minds except that it's not is required to make a faithful and truly outstanding comic book movie adaptation.

When I heard on the commentary for the 'Batman: the Animated Series' episode entitled "Read My Lips" that the people representing DC comics were strongly pushing for Scarface to pronounce all his B's as G's, that was refreshing as hell, even if it didn't make it into the finished product. Hell, the production crew may well have been right to keep things simple for the audience and voice actor George Dzundza, leaving out the fact that Arnold Wesker is a sad excuse for a ventriloquist and can't "throw" B's when talking through his puppet. Regardless, at least they cared enough about the uniqueness and completeness of their character that they voiced their concerns and made an argument. As far as I can tell from what I've read and heard, Marvel Comics doesn't take a stand when it comes to that. That's why Movie!Spider-Man had disgusting phallic metaphors (courtesy of James Cameron's childish imagination) on his wrists instead of real web-shooters, why Movie!Wolverine was played blandly by a 6'2" soap star instead of an actor who looks and is willing to act like Wolverine, why Movie!Dr.Octopus was a cuddly mentor-figure instead of a real supervillain and why Movie!GreenGoblin came back in Tim Story's Foxtastic Four movie (with a new costume, different powers much, much, much less personality) to play the villain instead of Dr. Doom. Because they don't stand behind their properties. They ****e all of them out and rest assured that people will not only pay for repeat viewings of these false portrayals but will make impassioned statements like "I have faith in Raimi/Singer/Story/whomever." They've either got a team of focus-group surveyers with expertise to rival the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit profiling abilities, or they're just damn lazy and arrogant. Considering some of the flops they've had, I'm betting on the latter and awaiting future failures.

Damn. That was barely on topic at all. But I've worked too hard to erase it all now. The world will keep spinning, I suppose.

Had to comment... just had to. I was having such a sh1tfest of a day, and now I feel a hellova lot better.
I've been so damn busy with my life that past few month that I couldn't really afford to have one here. I am, however, surprised to see that there's not really any surprise at all for me when it came to the trailer for X3. I sure as hell am not impressed, and I don't understand what the excitement is about.
To start off, Juggernaught looks like He-Man, or some type of Mad-Max leftover, whatever it is, it's not Juggernaut, and the only thing that tells me he's Juggs is the announcements. Second, the issue on whether or not the Sentinels are or aren't in this episode doesn't matter, because the designs I saw for them could suck the chrome off a hubcap; I mean, I too love H.R. Giger (as they resemble H.R.Giger's fragmented-exoskeletal style), but if they're gonna lick the scraps off his genius in designing that which was cool to begin with the way it was to begin with, then the least they could've done was come up with something aesthetically sound for us "amusement-impared" folk who just might have a damn say so on what is quality or not. Thirdly, as far as what I heard about the script, there's a blue-flourescent liquid that is supposedly the cure. When I heard about how it was one of the central issues of the plot's main summary, I thought it was bogus news, but the trailer is proving it right. Is there anything wrong with blue fourescent liquid being injected? Not per-say........ if it was part of the first draft of the script.... NOT IN THE FINAL DRAFT.
Fourthly, guess who wrote the screenplay folks,......yep, you guessed it, Simon Kinberg and Zack Penn! Nuff said.

To be fair, here's two plusses: a story about two conflicting sides warring over whether should they or shouldn't they even consider themselves as a "CURE" can have a ton of potential. Also Beast looks like he ought to.
There.

 

[Abaddon]

Sounds familiar, but definitely better than the existing film, so far.

Thanks for posting, Abbadon.

The main differences are that:

1) Rogue is introduced as a brash,sort of rough-and-tumble kind of gal.
2) Wolverine is already established as being an assasin,and having a history with Sabretooth
3)The seeds of a relationship between Rogue and Mystique are sown.
4) Colossus is already a member of the X-men.


To continue on a bit,Logan is taken to the X-mansion where he's introduced to the other X-men.He meets the younger students including Kitty Pryde who recently joined the school.He's reminded of Rogue who disappeared in the midst of the battle.The X-men ask him about Sabretooth,and Logan tells them that he shared a history with him.They were both assasins,who have vague memories of their past.Logan is aware that he was experimented on but he doesnt fully recall the details.He asks the team about Rogue,and they tell him about Magneto and the Brotherhood of Mutants.

Meanwhile,Rogue is introduced to the Brotherhood.She and Mystique have a chat about being different from others,and being persecuted for being special.Rogue then meets Magneto who manages to capture Rogue's interest with his demagoguery.Pyro tells Magneto about the encounter with Wolverine, a "new X-man",and the mysterious Sabretooth.Somehow or another(I havent thought of it yet.) they find out Sabretooth is an assasin.Magneto recruits him in exchange for giving him the opportunity to take on Logan.Sabretooth accepts and "joins" the ranks.The Brotherhood gathers in a plan to eliminate the human threat.Magneto reveals he has been building a device that will turn humans into mutants(I havent thought of anything better.),however there a necessary component he needs to complete it.The team storm Cape Citadel where the electronic component is, and are confronted by the X-men.

 

[Zev]

You blind fool! Can't you see I'm trying to tell you that I love you!

I WISH I COULD QUIT YOU!

 

[Abaddon]

Get a room.

 

[Herr Logan]

Had to comment... just had to. I was having such a sh1tfest of a day, and now I feel a hellova lot better.
I've been so damn busy with my life that past few month that I couldn't really afford to have one here. I am, however, surprised to see that there's not really any surprise at all for me when it came to the trailer for X3. I sure as hell am not impressed, and I don't understand what the excitement is about.
To start off, Juggernaught looks like He-Man, or some type of Mad-Max leftover, whatever it is, it's not Juggernaut, and the only thing that tells me he's Juggs is the announcements. Second, the issue on whether or not the Sentinels are or aren't in this episode doesn't matter, because the designs I saw for them could suck the chrome off a hubcap; I mean, I too love H.R. Giger (as they resemble H.R.Giger's fragmented-exoskeletal style), but if they're gonna lick the scraps off his genius in designing that which was cool to begin with the way it was to begin with, then the least they could've done was come up with something aesthetically sound for us &quot;amusement-impared&quot; folk who just might have a damn say so on what is quality or not. Thirdly, as far as what I heard about the script, there's a blue-flourescent liquid that is supposedly the cure. When I heard about how it was one of the central issues of the plot's main summary, I thought it was bogus news, but the trailer is proving it right. Is there anything wrong with blue fourescent liquid being injected? Not per-say........ if it was part of the first draft of the script.... NOT IN THE FINAL DRAFT.
Fourthly, guess who wrote the screenplay folks,......yep, you guessed it, Simon Kinberg and Zack Penn! Nuff said.

To be fair, here's two plusses: a story about two conflicting sides warring over whether should they or shouldn't they even consider themselves as a &quot;CURE&quot; can have a ton of potential. Also Beast looks like he ought to.
There.

Sorry to hear about your day being a sh1t-fest, HOC.
Glad you're feeling better, though, and glad to see you're still among our ranks.

I haven't been keeping all that up to date on this movie, and I'm not familiar with that guy you mentioned, with the exoskeletons and so forth. Regardless, very nice comments, and I wish I wasn't so tired and could give intelligent feed-back, but I'll have to try another time. Stay in touch, man.

 

[Herr Logan]

The main differences are that:

1) Rogue is introduced as a brash,sort of rough-and-tumble kind of gal.
2) Wolverine is already established as being an assasin,and having a history with Sabretooth
3)The seeds of a relationship between Rogue and Mystique are sown.
4) Colossus is already a member of the X-men.


To continue on a bit,Logan is taken to the X-mansion where he's introduced to the other X-men.He meets the younger students including Kitty Pryde who recently joined the school.He's reminded of Rogue who disappeared in the midst of the battle.The X-men ask him about Sabretooth,and Logan tells them that he shared a history with him.They were both assasins,who have vague memories of their past.Logan is aware that he was experimented on but he doesnt fully recall the details.He asks the team about Rogue,and they tell him about Magneto and the Brotherhood of Mutants.

Meanwhile,Rogue is introduced to the Brotherhood.She and Mystique have a chat about being different from others,and being persecuted for being special.Rogue then meets Magneto who manages to capture Rogue's interest with his demagoguery.Pyro tells Magneto about the encounter with Wolverine, a "new X-man",and the mysterious Sabretooth.Somehow or another(I havent thought of it yet.) they find out Sabretooth is an assasin.Magneto recruits him in exchange for giving him the opportunity to take on Logan.Sabretooth accepts and "joins" the ranks.The Brotherhood gathers in a plan to eliminate the human threat.Magneto reveals he has been building a device that will turn humans into mutants(I havent thought of anything better.),however there a necessary component he needs to complete it.The team storm Cape Citadel where the electronic component is, and are confronted by the X-men.

Yours is definitely the better set-up, Abaddon.
Still, that "gene machine" scheme sucks any way you look at it. I know that it makes far more sense for Magneto to carry out this ridiculous villain plot than Mr. Sinister or Apocalypse on a philosophical and goal-oriented level, but even though he's a decent geneticist in the comics (or has access to others who are), his main M.O. is not genetic engineering and the like. He's a terrorist who recruits followers with charismatic rhetoric and strong-arms his enemies with his powers and lackeys, not a mad scientist with a fatally flawed quick fix for human/mutant hostilities. They should have gone with something very simple yet very characteristic of the character: have him steal or hijack nukes and point them at powerful nations and/or have him build a big ol' doomsday device with which to threaten the world's governments and hold them hostage.

That's all I got right now. Way too tired to list the many ways one could make a faithful, high-quality and manageable X-Men movie.

 

[Abaddon]

Yours is definitely the better set-up, Abaddon.
Still, that "gene machine" scheme sucks any way you look at it. I know that it makes far more sense for Magneto to carry out this ridiculous villain plot than Mr. Sinister or Apocalypse on a philosophical and goal-oriented level, but even though he's a decent geneticist in the comics (or has access to others who are), his main M.O. is not genetic engineering and the like. He's a terrorist who recruits followers with charismatic rhetoric and strong-arms his enemies with his powers and lackeys, not a mad scientist with a fatally flawed quick fix for human/mutant hostilities. They should have gone with something very simple yet very characteristic of the character: have him steal or hijack nukes and point them at powerful nations and/or have him build a big ol' doomsday device with which to threaten the world's governments and hold them hostage.

That's all I got right now. Way too tired to list the many ways one could make a faithful, high-quality and manageable X-Men movie.

I completely agree.I always thought the whole turning humans into mutants thing was lame and uncharacteristic.Magneto has a superiority complex,and it doesnt seem right thatd he'd want to bring unwilling,and unworthy humans to Homo Superior status.I'm only using it because I cant think of a better set-up that will work well enough with the characters.I havent read comics in a while.

 

[Herr Logan]

Had to comment... just had to. I was having such a sh1tfest of a day, and now I feel a hellova lot better.
I've been so damn busy with my life that past few month that I couldn't really afford to have one here. I am, however, surprised to see that there's not really any surprise at all for me when it came to the trailer for X3. I sure as hell am not impressed, and I don't understand what the excitement is about.
To start off, Juggernaught looks like He-Man, or some type of Mad-Max leftover, whatever it is, it's not Juggernaut, and the only thing that tells me he's Juggs is the announcements. Second, the issue on whether or not the Sentinels are or aren't in this episode doesn't matter, because the designs I saw for them could suck the chrome off a hubcap; I mean, I too love H.R. Giger (as they resemble H.R.Giger's fragmented-exoskeletal style), but if they're gonna lick the scraps off his genius in designing that which was cool to begin with the way it was to begin with, then the least they could've done was come up with something aesthetically sound for us &quot;amusement-impared&quot; folk who just might have a damn say so on what is quality or not. Thirdly, as far as what I heard about the script, there's a blue-flourescent liquid that is supposedly the cure. When I heard about how it was one of the central issues of the plot's main summary, I thought it was bogus news, but the trailer is proving it right. Is there anything wrong with blue fourescent liquid being injected? Not per-say........ if it was part of the first draft of the script.... NOT IN THE FINAL DRAFT.
Fourthly, guess who wrote the screenplay folks,......yep, you guessed it, Simon Kinberg and Zack Penn! Nuff said.

To be fair, here's two plusses: a story about two conflicting sides warring over whether should they or shouldn't they even consider themselves as a &quot;CURE&quot; can have a ton of potential. Also Beast looks like he ought to.
There.

I agree that the Beast looks good, although I'm sure they've got his backstory completely messed up. He's supposed to be an X-Man first, not a federal cabinet member who happens to agree with Xavier. To be fair, I don't know the exact story there, but I figure I can only make this movie better by assuming the worst, as with everything else. That's the power of negative thinking (I'm not joking about this... it's the credo I live by). Then again, I don't want this movie to be better. I want all Marvel movies from here on out to be as across-the-board terrible as possible, since they're already grossly inadequate and I don't want there to be any confusion regarding the quality of these movies.

For instance, I'm very much hoping that Topher Grace will play Venom in 'Spider-Man 3.' Does that sound absolutely insane? Of course it does! And when they do something completely ridiculous like that and people still praise and defend such a disgusting decision, then I'll know for an absolute fact that the apologists and supporters are either complete, ovine morons, or true non-fans, or both. I like simplicity when it comes to judging people, and although I'm almost always right when I judge people now, my accuracy increases with the decrease in integrity in these products which the plebeians defend. Does that still sound crazy? Well, them's the times we live in, and dark times call for dark attitudes.

So I guess they're going with the mutant cure plot from Joss Whedon's run on 'Astonishing X-Men'? That was a good story arc, and it's unfortunate that the following arc in that title was a piece of crap. Still, Whedon has at least proven he can write a good X-Men story, and hopefully he'll take another crack at it and do it right. And he'll always be a hero to me on account o' 'Firefly'. HOC, you have to watch Firefly, if you haven't already. Do we have an understanding between us? Excellent.
Anyway, I had heard that a character called Dr. Kavita Rao-- the doctor from the 'Astonishing' arc "Gifted"-- was in this movie, so they're clearly drawing from that material.

It seems that they've crammed this movie with too many characters. We'll see about that. As long as this movie has an abundance of action in it that takes away a lot of time that they'd normally waste on their pathetic version of romantic drama, that suits me. This is probably not a movie I'll be paying to own, just like with 'Spider-Man 3.' Well, unless the action in either of them is amazing, like it was in 'Spider-Man 2.' Anyway, it seems on the surface that my hopes of having the ambiguity of quality taken down several notches are being fulfilled.

 

[Abaddon]

Herr Logan,I find you fascinating.

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr Logan,I find you fascinating.

I've noticed.

You as well.

 

[Abaddon]

That doesnt necessarilly make it a good thing.

 

[Herr Logan]

That doesnt necessarilly make it a good thing.

It might if I assume it doesn't.

 

[Zev]

I completely agree.I always thought the whole turning humans into mutants thing was lame and uncharacteristic.Magneto has a superiority complex,and it doesnt seem right thatd he'd want to bring unwilling,and unworthy humans to Homo Superior status.I'm only using it because I cant think of a better set-up that will work well enough with the characters.I havent read comics in a while.

Well, if you want a better scheme, look to the real world. The whole reason for the 9/11 attacks was that Bin Laden basically wanted a war between Muslims and... well, everyone else.

So let's just say Magneto is trying to do something so heinous, it would force a clampdown on mutants that would inevitably result in a war between mutants and humans. Maybe an ol' standby like blowing up the Statue of Liberty (hey, it worked for Cobra!), maybe trying to assassinate Senator Kelly or another beloved politican (hey, it worked for the animated series), or really any act of war that would cause persecution against mutants.

Hell, maybe he could frame the humans for attacking mutants, thus making himself and his kind seem like the wronged party. Like, he could frame them for... doing something nasty to the X-men/Xavier/the institute.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Abaddon]

Hmm,I'll get a cracking on a better concept,but in the meantime I'll continue using the existing movie as a template.

It might if I assume it doesn't.

Touche.

 

[Herr Logan]

So let's just say Magneto is trying to do something so heinous, it would force a clampdown on mutants that would inevitably result in a war between mutants and humans. Maybe an ol' standby like blowing up the Statue of Liberty (hey, it worked for Cobra!), maybe trying to assassinate Senator Kelly or another beloved politican (hey, it worked for the animated series), or really any act of war that would cause persecution against mutants.

Hell, maybe he could frame the humans for attacking mutants, thus making himself and his kind seem like the wronged party. Like, he could frame them for... doing something nasty to the X-men/Xavier/the institute.

Just a few thoughts.

The assassination of Senator Kelly actually wasn't just from the animated series. It was straight from the comics, and the same people were behind it: the second incarnation of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, led by Mystique.

I'd go with a combination of hijacking nuclear missiles and threatening to set off a horrific doomsday device that amplifies his powers from space or from a remote island.

My original thoughts (which can be found earlier in this thread) were that I'd start with the second generation of X-Men in the first movie and bring the rest of the original five (meaning everyone but Cyclops, who'd be leading the second generation as well) back in a sequel. That was entirely selfish, since my only real reason for that was that I both prefer and understand some characters better than others. They certainly could do a movie about the original five X-Men and Xavier versus Magneto and his Brotherhood of Mutants (consisting of Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Mastermind, Toad and maybe Unus the Untouchable). Maybe the franchise can get all the teen angst out of its system right off (barring Kitty Pryde's stuff in the second one), but it should also focus predominately on being an action drama, not an excuse to show pretty people attempting to eke out emotional effect on the audience.

My tips for making a movie about the first five X-Men that doesn't suck:

• Have the Beast do a lot of talking and make most of it funny as well as important
• Emphasize the Angel's speed and agility, making him a worthwhile member of the team instead of a floating joke
• Go ahead and have the love triangle between Cylcops, Jean Grey and the Angel, but for God's sake keep it limited and resolve it with finality by the end
• Make Iceman funny and not just annoying as class clown, and have him snark on Angel without being too hateful about it
• Have Xavier be fairly strict with his students as well as compassionate; not straight-up cuddly like in Bryan Singer's 'X-Men'
• Give Cyclops his due and make him a competent and pro-active lieutenant for Xavier; don't cram his scenes into all of ten minutes and have more shallow characters upstage him.
• Show Xavier having discussions with FBI agent Fred Duncan; give this story at least a portion of the complexity it had in the comics.

That's all I got for now. Let the adulation continue.

 

[Abaddon]

It sounds good except I don't particularly care to see all the original five X-men.


Duncan had ties to the guy who became the X-Cutioner didnt he?

 

[Cullen]

Unus the Untouchable? Are you sure you meant Unus the Untouchable? 'Cause already I can come up with six jokes about the character's name and I'm a bear with very little brain. Imagine what the insult-talented could do.

My X-knowledge is pitifully small, but wouldn't the Juggernaut work better? (He wasn't a member of the Brotherhood, was he? You can see how out of my depth I am here.) The Juggernaut has such a great visual presence to him, it be a same not to use him.

If you did use our boy Unus (is it YOU-nus or UHN-us?), would it be too disrespectful to call him the Untouchable Man? Or the Untouchable? Or are there characters with those names?

Just curious.

 

[Abaddon]

I cant even remember what his powers were.

 

[Cullen]

I cant even remember what his powers were.

I think his powers were repulsing things... but I'm not sure. I only recently heard of him myself, and that was in some blog or another...

EDIT: Check here. This is the blog I was thinking of.

 

[Herr Logan]

It sounds good except I don't particularly care to see all the original five X-men.

Well I didn't either, at first, but I think it could work and I think it would be hypocritical of me to preach faithfulness to the source material and not sign off on an X-Men franchise that features the original team first. Whether I like one team more than another shouldn't be the issue, just as your preference shouldn't supercede that of someone else who does like the first team enough to want a movie about it.

I figure that the meat of the philosophical content could be displayed in the first movie. Also, there's a hell of a lot of impressive action to be made of these characters. I think it could work well if done properly.

Duncan had ties to the guy who became the X-Cutioner didnt he?

He did? Well, the X-Cutioner did work for the FBI, right? That's not much of a stretch.


Here's another important mandate or two I'd make for this film:

• There shouldn't be any huge age differences between the X-Men. They should all be about 17 or 18 except for Iceman, who's one year younger than the rest and two years younger at the very most. They all get costumes, and there isn't a bunch of mutant young-un's running around in the background. One huge mansion/institute and campus/estate for five teenaged mutants and one professor. Sound weird? Yeah, kinda the whole point of the X-Men. Anyway, we don't need nameless mutants or cameos (at least none attending the school itself... cameos are good when done well, so anywhere else that's suitable, fine) using up the special effects budget. There's plenty of special effects that the core X-Men and Brotherhood need to spend.
• Speaking of which, my next mandate can be summed up in just two words: Danger Room. Wait, one more word (it's more of a compound, really): non-negotiable. I mean, this is where the real teaching happens.
• Still, it should be made clear that they're still getting a top-rate "normal" education as well. While Warren, Scott and Jean will be finishing up what is basically the equivalent of their senior year of high school, Hank McCoy is working on several doctorates simultaneously (whichever ones he has in the comics... I only remember genetics, for certain). Bobby is a year behind the others, so whatever high school juniors learn, that's what he's studying.

 

[Zev]

Gotta disagree with you on a few points.

One, I'd prefer if the X-Men started off in the Claremont years or at least had a mix and match line-up. Having a global line-up is a great way to show that mutants aren't just an American thing. I don't know why you'd go with the Stan Lee team as you really wouldn't want, say, Spider-Man fighting the Living Brain in a Spider-Man movie or Foggy being fooled by Matt's twin brother, Mike Murdock (I wish they would do that in the Ultimate universe. "Hey, 'Mike', I Googled you and found out Matt Murdock doesn't have a twin brother! Did you really expect that to work?" "What can I say, I was played by Ben Affleck in the movie! Curse you for letting the movieverse filter into the comicverse, Marvel. CURSE YOU!")

I wouldn't mind having the cast all about the same age, as it makes sense for them to all be "first generation" mutants. Although you'd have to wait a while to have Kitty Pryde or Jubilee be the "youngster" of the group and you'd have to wait a LONG WHILE to have Wolverine, otherwise he'd come off as quite the dirty old man in the Cyclops/Jean/Logan triangle (just look at the Ultimate version. Better yet, don't. He's a bigger *****e than John Edwards. But then, in the Ultimate universe, EVERYONE is secretly evil. I'm waiting for the day Ultimate Peter Parker puts on a Hobgoblin mask and the book turns into yet another lame Authority rip-off).

And based on what I remember of high school, juniors generally study the mockery of bad movies and how to get into women's pants.

 

[Herr Logan]

Unus the Untouchable? Are you sure you meant Unus the Untouchable? 'Cause already I can come up with six jokes about the character's name and I'm a bear with very little brain. Imagine what the insult-talented could do.

His name is easily mocked, you say?? Well, considering at least three of the five original X-Men are prone to wise-cracking, I guess I'd better not give them an easy target!

My X-knowledge is pitifully small, but wouldn't the Juggernaut work better? (He wasn't a member of the Brotherhood, was he? You can see how out of my depth I am here.) The Juggernaut has such a great visual presence to him, it be a same not to use him.

The Juggernaut isn't a mutant and would never work for Magneto, despite what the masterminds working on the current X-atrocity would have you believe. He has two goals: to hurt Charles Xavier and to make money. While working for Magneto may well help him achieve both goals, that would leave Magneto in power. Magneto is a power-hungry mutant who favors other mutants over humans and would put humans in a lower caste than mutants in his ideal social heirarchy. Juggernaut is, again, not a mutant. He's a human who happens to not like mutants a whole hell of a lot. You gettin' it? Take a look at the novel trilogy called 'X-Men: Mutant Empire' and you'll see what the Juggernaut's choice would be between siding with the X-Men or siding with Magneto. Because I have read the books, I can't in good conscience suggest that the Juggernaut should help Magneto.

Now then, that leaves the option of having two separate threats plague Xavier and his X-Men. As ambitious as my ideal movie models are, I can't see how it would be plausible to have the X-Men and both the Juggernaut and Magneto's Brotherhood and give them all the justice they deserve. Yes, it would be a shame not to use Juggy, but it'd be a bigger shame to disgrace the character and/or short-change characters that more easily suit the needs of a cohesive story.

Again, I know my idea for a first Spider-Man movie had three big fights with Dr. Octopus and the Vulture, but there are still fewer characters in total wearing tights and kicking ass in that scenario, and the Vulture ties to Norman Osborn. Juggernaut requires more time to properly justify his appearance and unfortunately, his backstory has very little to do with the conflict between Xavier and Magneto that actually justifies him taking up screen time. It's a team of heroes fighting a team of villains. Not the same dynamic, not the same room for diversity, although I would certainly push the envelope wherever I could.

If you did use our boy Unus (is it YOU-nus or UHN-us?), would it be too disrespectful to call him the Untouchable Man? Or the Untouchable? Or are there characters with those names?

Just curious.

From Wikipedia:
Unus the Untouchable is a mutant from Marvel Comics. He possesses a strong force field which protects him from harm (so long as he puts it up, which is not automatic). Originally from Italy, he was named Angelo Unuscione, but changed his name to Gunther Bain when he came to the United States.

The "the Untouchable" bit comes from his circus/wrestling/whatever act. It damn well has to be referenced in some fashion, but it doesn't have to be emblazoned on his chest or announced in a freakin' battle cry. If you're thinking even his own teammates would mock him, then good! There ought to be something for them to quarrel about other than who's got the hots for the Scarlet Witch and what Quicksilver will do to them if they try to get fresh and who's not being subservient enough to the Master of Magnetism and so forth.

Like I said, it's a tentative idea, but I'm sure it could work if done properly, and if there's a better candidate who fits in with Magneto's crowd and isn't better used in a future movie, then fine. That's what I got for now.

Behave, damn you!

 

[Cullen]

His name is easily mocked, you say?? Well, considering at least three of the five original X-Men are prone to wise-cracking, I guess I'd better not give them an easy target!

There is easy, and then there is kicking a bound helpless man. Unus is that man.

The Juggernaut isn't a mutant and would never work for Magneto, despite what the masterminds working on the current X-atrocity would have you believe. He has two goals: to hurt Charles Xavier and to make money. While working for Magneto may well help him achieve both goals, that would leave Magneto in power. Magneto is a power-hungry mutant who favors other mutants over humans and would put humans in a lower caste than mutants in his ideal social heirarchy. Juggernaut is, again, not a mutant. He's a human who happens to not like mutants a whole hell of a lot. You gettin' it? Take a look at the novel trilogy called 'X-Men: Mutant Empire' and you'll see what the Juggernaut's choice would be between siding with the X-Men or siding with Magneto. Because I have read the books, I can't in good conscience suggest that the Juggernaut should help Magneto.

What I know about the Juggernaut can be boiled down to a single Spider-man appearence, a single flashback thing in "X-Men Legends" (a game I enjoyed but have yet to finish), and dimly remebered reference books. For some reason unknown to me, I had it in my head he was a mutant, which was why I suggested him.

Now then, that leaves the option of having two separate threats plague Xavier and his X-Men. As ambitious as my ideal movie models are, I can't see how it would be plausible to have the X-Men and both the Juggernaut and Magneto's Brotherhood and give them all the justice they deserve. Yes, it would be a shame not to use Juggy, but it'd be a bigger shame to disgrace the character and/or short-change characters that more easily suit the needs of a cohesive story.

Sure enough. No arguements here.

Again, I know my idea for a first Spider-Man movie had three big fights with Dr. Octopus and the Vulture, but there are still fewer characters in total wearing tights and kicking ass in that scenario, and the Vulture ties to Norman Osborn. Juggernaut requires more time to properly justify his appearance and unfortunately, his backstory has very little to do with the conflict between Xavier and Magneto that actually justifies him taking up screen time. It's a team of heroes fighting a team of villains. Not the same dynamic, not the same room for diversity, although I would certainly push the envelope wherever I could.

Again, nothing to add here

From Wikipedia:
Unus the Untouchable is a mutant from Marvel Comics. He possesses a strong force field which protects him from harm (so long as he puts it up, which is not automatic). Originally from Italy, he was named Angelo Unuscione, but changed his name to Gunther Bain when he came to the United States.

The "the Untouchable" bit comes from his circus/wrestling/whatever act. It damn well has to be referenced in some fashion, but it doesn't have to be emblazoned on his chest or announced in a freakin' battle cry. If you're thinking even his own teammates would mock him, then good! There ought to be something for them to quarrel about other than who's got the hots for the Scarlet Witch and what Quicksilver will do to them if they try to get fresh and who's not being subservient enough to the Master of Magnetism and so forth.

Should have thought to look up things in the Wiki. Don't know where my mind is. One moment it's asking for the keys to the car, the next thing I know it's in Peoria or some damn place, partying, smoking, and raising the Charles Dickens. I swear, minds these days. No respect at all.

Like I said, it's a tentative idea, but I'm sure it could work if done properly, and if there's a better candidate who fits in with Magneto's crowd and isn't better used in a future movie, then fine. That's what I got for now.

Which is more than I have. Unus has interesting enough possiblities, but that name... Bain would have been so much better.

(This from the man who likes the name Fing Fang Foom, no less...)

Behave, damn you!

I assure you I have no idea whatsoever what you might be refering to. I always behave.

Badly, natch. But behave nonetheless.

 

[Herr Logan]

Gotta disagree with you on a few points.

One, I'd prefer if the X-Men started off in the Claremont years or at least had a mix and match line-up. Having a global line-up is a great way to show that mutants aren't just an American thing. I don't know why you'd go with the Stan Lee team as you really wouldn't want, say, Spider-Man fighting the Living Brain in a Spider-Man movie or Foggy being fooled by Matt's twin brother, Mike Murdock (I wish they would do that in the Ultimate universe. "Hey, 'Mike', I Googled you and found out Matt Murdock doesn't have a twin brother! Did you really expect that to work?" "What can I say, I was played by Ben Affleck in the movie! Curse you for letting the movieverse filter into the comicverse, Marvel. CURSE YOU!")

I wouldn't mind having the cast all about the same age, as it makes sense for them to all be "first generation" mutants. Although you'd have to wait a while to have Kitty Pryde or Jubilee be the "youngster" of the group and you'd have to wait a LONG WHILE to have Wolverine, otherwise he'd come off as quite the dirty old man in the Cyclops/Jean/Logan triangle (just look at the Ultimate version. Better yet, don't. He's a bigger *****e than John Edwards. But then, in the Ultimate universe, EVERYONE is secretly evil. I'm waiting for the day Ultimate Peter Parker puts on a Hobgoblin mask and the book turns into yet another lame Authority rip-off).

And based on what I remember of high school, juniors generally study the mockery of bad movies and how to get into women's pants.

I prefer the Claremont years as well, like I said. I'm considering the option of a first-generation X-Men movie, with a definite preference to have the second-generation team in the first sequel, if not the first movie.

Cyclops would stay on after the others decide to try other stuff, and new recruits include Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus, and Kitty Pryde will join the already-established second-gen team after a couple of brief scenes of Xavier approaching Nightcrawler, Wolverine and Colossus.

As for the Cyclops/Jean/Wolverine triangle, I could damn well skip the whole thing. If you go back and read the early comics, there wasn't even a real competition between Cyclops and Wolverine for Jean's affections. Wolverine loved Jean and didn't mention it most of the time. The whole "triangle" thing was very stongly hinted at by the animated series and never actually spoken about between two characters, and it was made solid by the movies. There was never that level of "triangularity" there before the movies, regardless of what Grant Morrison wants us to believe.

I'd make it clear that Wolverine cares deeply for Jean Grey as soon as they're in a movie together (which could be the second or third, depending on whether or not there was a first-gen movie first), but Wolverine's early conflicts with Cyclops would be based on his antagonistic attitude towards authority and the super-charged testosterone the two superheroes are possessed by-- just like in the comics. Hell, Wolverine started to really respect Cyclops while Phoenix (which they thought was Jean) was there, so their relationship isn't defined by her.

Wolverine is a dirty old man no matter how you cut it with regard to Jean Grey. The first and second movies' stories could well span several years in between so that Jean isn't 20 when he has time to get to know her.

 

[Kni-Ton]

I have a lot of ideas for a Fantastic Four trilogy. I'm not sure if you'll like them, because there are quite a few changes I made. Not for the sake of 'realism' though, but because I think the change is for the better.

You want to hear my ideas?