Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Abaddon]

Maybe something involving Bastion and the Prime Sentinels.Or better yet,Master Mold.

 

[Herr Logan]

Maybe something involving Bastion and the Prime Sentinels.Or better yet,Master Mold.

How many video games are about Bastion and the prime Sentinels by now?

I'd be fine with Master Mold as a piece of the bigger picture, with some big Sentinels and some Prime Sentinels in various parts of the game.

The way I vaguely envision it, it would sort of be a run-down of the basic historical themes of X-Men history. Mutants make themselves known, humans react badly, mutants attack humans out of revenge, humans pour billions of dollars into defenses against mutants, mutants band together and attack the government directly, etc. Where the player comes in is when the X-Men step in and make all the misbehaving parties sit in the corner and think about what they've done.

 

[Abaddon]

I only know of one X-game involving Bastion.

 

[Zev]

Well, I've kinda said my piece on my X-Men game idea. There isn't that much more to say. Except that the only reason you don't like it is because you're a dirty hippie communist Bendis-lover

 

[Abaddon]

Bendis lover?



BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!!!!!!!!!

 

[Herr Logan]

Well, I've kinda said my piece on my X-Men game idea. There isn't that much more to say. Except that the only reason you don't like it is because you're a dirty hippie communist Bendis-lover

Bendis lover?



BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!!!!!!!!!

No, burn Zev at the stake for calling me that!

I hate Bendis, and the only thing in that dispicable set of accusations that's true is that I am, indeed, dirty.

 

[Abaddon]

There are no good writers working at Marvel at the moment.Its depressing.I can't wait until most of the garbage these hacks have been spewing out is ret-conned.

 

[Zev]

There are no good writers working at Marvel at the moment.Its depressing.I can't wait until most of the garbage these hacks have been spewing out is ret-conned.

Hey, go watch A Muppet Christmas Carol. You'll feel better.

Rizzo: This is scary stuff! Shouldn't we be worried about the kids in the audience?

Gonzo: Oh, no, this is culture!

That's after they argue about Gonzo being an omniscient narrator, with Rizzo calling him a "Mr. Hoity-Toity God-like smarty-pants." Brilliant.

 

[Abaddon]

x a billion.

 

[Herr Logan]

There are no good writers working at Marvel at the moment.Its depressing.I can't wait until most of the garbage these hacks have been spewing out is ret-conned.

Amen, brother.

 

[SoulManX]

There are no good writers working at Marvel at the moment.Its depressing.I can't wait until most of the garbage these hacks have been spewing out is ret-conned.

I second that as well

 

[SoulManX]

The House of Ideas need to clean out the cobwebs.

 

[Cullen]

Amen, brother.

Actually, the guy doing She Hulk's not bad. From what I here, he has a great deal of respect for continuity and the characters. On this, he wrote the last good Spider-man story I read. (In She Hulk, no less...)

 

[Saph]

My Spider-Man concept:

There is not a lot you can really make original about a Spider-Man movie without changing the characters completely. James Cameron did that, and while I believe that if he did make that movie it would be my favourite, it just wasn't Spider-Man. So this probably will sound very similar to the Sam Raimi version, but what can you do?

THE PLOT:
Basically the plot of Spider-Man. Spidey gets powers, villain gets powers, they have conflict, Spidey tries to win the heart of MJ. The differences are, this film is actually good and true to the comic character-wise , and there are THREE villains. How can I fit that into a film? Easily, with the way I handle them.

CHARACTERS:
This includes what costumes the characters wear, their part of the plot, characterisation, origin etc.

Peter Parker- Peter is a 17-year-old science geek currently attending Midtown High School. He is after the heart of MJ, a fellow classmate. He is best friends with Harry Osborn, son of Oscorp founder Norman Osborn. His worst enemy at school is Flash Thompson. He lives with his beloved Aunt and Uncle in Forest Hlls. He is witty and sarcastic, and this has gotten him into a lot of fights.

One day while attending a field trip at Oscorp, he was bitten by a spider that was irradiated in a hidden experiment behind the scenes that goes wrong. Peter Parker later discovers the spider has given him powers, and soon gets into the wrestling profession and gains more and more confidence at school, and MJ begins to notice him. One day at the arena he lets a burglar slip through, figuring it's not his job. But that burglar goes on to shoot Uncle Ben, and Peter realises if he had stopped him Uncle Ben would still be alive.

The costume Peter wears as Spider-Man is the Alex Ross costume. I know you probably don't like this, but I feel it is a superior design that still adheres to the image of Spider-Man. It is also a much more 21st century design, and the whole reason why Spidey became so succesful in the first place in the 60's was because this was a comic that teenagers could read, and I feel a cooler costume leaves the movie more open for young people today.

I would keep organics as I feel mechanical webshooters are completely unecessary. I remember when I found out that Spidey's webbing was artifical and I thought it was stupid. Also I can spend more time on character development if I don't include a scene explaining the details of the mechs.

Norman Osborn/Green Goblin: Osborn is creating a supersoldier formula for the military. He and his top scientist, Doctor Octavius have found a way to acheive it, but the experiment was deemed too dangerous and they are not allowed to go through with it. However they are adamant about the experiment and try to do it in secret. The perfect oppurtunity arises: A class from Midtown high is having a field trip at Oscorp and all the security will be focused on them, leaving Osborn free to do the experiment in secret. To make sure nothing happens, Osborn has his bodyguards Matt Dillon and Flint Marko on lookout. The experiment uses a laser that reprograms cells, so the cells can become stronger. Osborn volunteers himself as a test subject. Otto Octavius operates the laser via a tentacle harness of his own design. The experiment is going smoothly. Osborn's cells are becoming more durable. Suddenly, the laser short circuits and starts blasting out of control, hitting Octavious, Dillon, and Marko. Octavius' tentacle harness fuses to his spine. Dillon is hit by a spark of electricity. Marko falls over and tries to support himself by grabbing onto a fire escape sand bucket, spilling sand all over him. A spider is also blasted, and it crawls away and finds the unsuspecting Peter Parker.

Octavius is left in a coma and Marko and Dillon are under scientific study. Oscorp is in financial trouble. Osborn now has super abilities, but is spiralling into madness and talks to a giant floating goblin head only he can see. Eventually he takes the identity of the Green Goblin and tries to rid of his troubles by killing those who cause them. When one of his plans are foiled by Spidey, Spider-man becomes the next target. This gets worse when sborn finds out Spider-Man's identity and starts using Peter's family as blackmail. He also has two super powered bodyguards, Electro (Dillon) and Sandman (Marko). At the end of the movie he kidnaps MJ and takes her to the top of Washington Bridge. After Spidey battles through Sandman and Electro, he rescues MJ and the Goblin is killed by his own glider.

Why does Osborn start seeing visions of a goblin? He is deeply interested in mythical creatures and science fiction, and this interest manifests into a dual identity.

The Costume: Think the body armour of the original movie, without the mask. Instead of a metal, helmet-like mask he wears one that resembles the comics (see Alex Ross' mask design). He wears dark purple rags over the armour. He rides a glider, equiptment taken from Oscorp.

Flint Marko/Sandman: Bodyguard of Osborn. The accident left him with the power to turn into sand and morph into weapons. He is best friends with Max Dillion, Osborn's other bodyguard. He fights Spider-Man in the film.

Sandman wears the striped t-shirt of the comics, with brown jeans and a brown leather jacket (which is removed when he uses his powers).

Matt Dillon/Electro: Bodyguard of Osborn. The accident left him with the power to generate electricity and shoot it as a weapon. He is best friends with Flint Marko, Osborn's other bodyguard. He fights Spider-Man in the film.

Electro wears a black rubber bodysuit (for insulation) which mimics the design of the comics (yellow lightning symbols). He wears no mask, but his hair stands on end when he uses his powers and an arc of electricity emenating from his eyes mimics his mask in the comics.

CAST
Peter Parker/Spider-Man: Paul Rudd
Mary Jane Watson:Undecided
Aunt May: Rosemary Harris
Uncle Ben: Stan Lee
Harry Osborn: Jake Gyllenhal
Norman Osborn/Green Goblin: John Malkovich
Flash Thompson: Guy who played Stiffler in American Pie.
Flint Marko/Sandman: Ron Perlman
Matt Dillon/Electro: Josh Lucas
Dr Octavius: Alfred Molina

 

[Herr Logan]

My Spider-Man concept:

There is not a lot you can really make original about a Spider-Man movie without changing the characters completely. James Cameron did that, and while I believe that if he did make that movie it would be my favourite, it just wasn't Spider-Man. So this probably will sound very similar to the Sam Raimi version, but what can you do?

THE PLOT:
Basically the plot of Spider-Man. Spidey gets powers, villain gets powers, they have conflict, Spidey tries to win the heart of MJ. The differences are, this film is actually good and true to the comic character-wise , and there are THREE villains. How can I fit that into a film? Easily, with the way I handle them.

CHARACTERS:
This includes what costumes the characters wear, their part of the plot, characterisation, origin etc.

Peter Parker- Peter is a 17-year-old science geek currently attending Midtown High School. He is after the heart of MJ, a fellow classmate. He is best friends with Harry Osborn, son of Oscorp founder Norman Osborn. His worst enemy at school is Flash Thompson. He lives with his beloved Aunt and Uncle in Forest Hlls. He is witty and sarcastic, and this has gotten him into a lot of fights.

One day while attending a field trip at Oscorp, he was bitten by a spider that was irradiated in a hidden experiment behind the scenes that goes wrong. Peter Parker later discovers the spider has given him powers, and soon gets into the wrestling profession and gains more and more confidence at school, and MJ begins to notice him. One day at the arena he lets a burglar slip through, figuring it's not his job. But that burglar goes on to shoot Uncle Ben, and Peter realises if he had stopped him Uncle Ben would still be alive.

The costume Peter wears as Spider-Man is the Alex Ross costume. I know you probably don't like this, but I feel it is a superior design that still adheres to the image of Spider-Man. It is also a much more 21st century design, and the whole reason why Spidey became so succesful in the first place in the 60's was because this was a comic that teenagers could read, and I feel a cooler costume leaves the movie more open for young people today.

I would keep organics as I feel mechanical webshooters are completely unecessary. I remember when I found out that Spidey's webbing was artifical and I thought it was stupid. Also I can spend more time on character development if I don't include a scene explaining the details of the mechs.

Norman Osborn/Green Goblin: Osborn is creating a supersoldier formula for the military. He and his top scientist, Doctor Octavius have found a way to acheive it, but the experiment was deemed too dangerous and they are not allowed to go through with it. However they are adamant about the experiment and try to do it in secret. The perfect oppurtunity arises: A class from Midtown high is having a field trip at Oscorp and all the security will be focused on them, leaving Osborn free to do the experiment in secret. To make sure nothing happens, Osborn has his bodyguards Matt Dillon and Flint Marko on lookout. The experiment uses a laser that reprograms cells, so the cells can become stronger. Osborn volunteers himself as a test subject. Otto Octavius operates the laser via a tentacle harness of his own design. The experiment is going smoothly. Osborn's cells are becoming more durable. Suddenly, the laser short circuits and starts blasting out of control, hitting Octavious, Dillon, and Marko. Octavius' tentacle harness fuses to his spine. Dillon is hit by a spark of electricity. Marko falls over and tries to support himself by grabbing onto a fire escape sand bucket, spilling sand all over him. A spider is also blasted, and it crawls away and finds the unsuspecting Peter Parker.

Octavius is left in a coma and Marko and Dillon are under scientific study. Oscorp is in financial trouble. Osborn now has super abilities, but is spiralling into madness and talks to a giant floating goblin head only he can see. Eventually he takes the identity of the Green Goblin and tries to rid of his troubles by killing those who cause them. When one of his plans are foiled by Spidey, Spider-man becomes the next target. This gets worse when sborn finds out Spider-Man's identity and starts using Peter's family as blackmail. He also has two super powered bodyguards, Electro (Dillon) and Sandman (Marko). At the end of the movie he kidnaps MJ and takes her to the top of Washington Bridge. After Spidey battles through Sandman and Electro, he rescues MJ and the Goblin is killed by his own glider.

Why does Osborn start seeing visions of a goblin? He is deeply interested in mythical creatures and science fiction, and this interest manifests into a dual identity.

The Costume: Think the body armour of the original movie, without the mask. Instead of a metal, helmet-like mask he wears one that resembles the comics (see Alex Ross' mask design). He wears dark purple rags over the armour. He rides a glider, equiptment taken from Oscorp.

Flint Marko/Sandman: Bodyguard of Osborn. The accident left him with the power to turn into sand and morph into weapons. He is best friends with Max Dillion, Osborn's other bodyguard. He fights Spider-Man in the film.

Sandman wears the striped t-shirt of the comics, with brown jeans and a brown leather jacket (which is removed when he uses his powers).

Matt Dillon/Electro: Bodyguard of Osborn. The accident left him with the power to generate electricity and shoot it as a weapon. He is best friends with Flint Marko, Osborn's other bodyguard. He fights Spider-Man in the film.

Electro wears a black rubber bodysuit (for insulation) which mimics the design of the comics (yellow lightning symbols). He wears no mask, but his hair stands on end when he uses his powers and an arc of electricity emenating from his eyes mimics his mask in the comics.

CAST
Peter Parker/Spider-Man: Paul Rudd
Mary Jane Watson:Undecided
Aunt May: Rosemary Harris
Uncle Ben: Stan Lee
Harry Osborn: Jake Gyllenhal
Norman Osborn/Green Goblin: John Malkovich
Flash Thompson: Guy who played Stiffler in American Pie.
Flint Marko/Sandman: Ron Perlman
Matt Dillon/Electro: Josh Lucas
Dr Octavius: Alfred Molina

Those are some interesting ideas. Thanks for posting, Saph.

 

[Herr Logan]

Actually, the guy doing She Hulk's not bad. From what I here, he has a great deal of respect for continuity and the characters. On this, he wrote the last good Spider-man story I read. (In She Hulk, no less...)

Who's the writer on that?

 

[GL1]

Oh! Oh! Pick Me!
(I have TOO Many game ideas... I'll share my Flash one sometime...)

Cyclops' guided ricochet shot?
Well first off, to be completely honest, I don't like the whole slo-mo Bond-vision thing, for one reason: I love multiplayer. The thing that made Legends (and the much less fun legends 2) fun was the fact that I had three of my best buddies along for the ride. Having all the intricacies rely on slomotion not only kills any multiplayer factor, but also passes up the possibility of offering superior intuitive controls.

For Cyclops, I would add, in addition to his ability to change the diameter and strength of his blasts, be able to, at certain low diameters, add in a number of bounces, which the computer automatically calculates to hit the maximum number of targets. You're running and gunning as Cyclops, the door opens and tehre's three guys. You snap the R-button and hit X+Y, and a narrow beam comes out, striking one in the head, ricocheting off the wall to strike another knee, ricocheting off the door way to strike third in the chest and send him flying before they level their guns at you. Perhaps a slo mo would add to the coolness factor, but I'll take intuitive controls with optional slo mo anyday, especially if I can have Wolvie and NC by my side taking out the other ten guys in the room.

Rogue's stolen memories distracting her in flashes?
Hotness, it wouldn't have to be all that much work either. Minions and thugs could have almost random flashes, and known bosses, sub-bosses and canon characters can have random pictures of different things, things we know... give each of those pics a tenth of second and you've and run 12 of them at random with psycho designs and filters for 1-3 seconds. Boom. Instant fun. Powerful, practical, on point. I LOVE this idea. And who knows, people might ACTUALLY learn to use Rogue's power sparingly!

Wolverine's complex sensory system?
Complexity is cool, I'm only worried about the visuals... perhaps I missed something, but having a bunch of colors and labels on the screen ALL the time can really interupt the visual of Wolverine getting into someone's tail. I think it should be a functional option for wolverine to toggle 'all scents' or target a scent. Hearing distant things however, is just cool, I think most people could tune out the things they don't need, or overhear something cool on their own....

Storm being able to change low-speed wind direction?
I almost think you're underselling Storm. I'm thinking Storm can change any wind direction she wants to. As far as I'm concerned, she has the weather menu and she decides what the weather should be like during the entire level. It'd be one thing for weather to go back to normal if she's distracted or KOed, but tornadoes just aren't that hard for her.

Jean Grey's assortment and system of powers?
Like it, not sure if the telepathic communication should be principle to gameplay, but the reading minds and getting story/keys/codes/direction is, obviously the truth.

I had a Phoenix system where you can see how the phoenix reacts and grows within you based on how you use your powers, ALMOST like a morality system (KOTOR) but with different values/triggers. If you let phoenix get out of control, she'll cause more and more trouble until your character slowly begins to do more and more things on her own... perhaps even unlock a 'within jean's mind level' where you try to reassert control over the phoenix... some gameplay for that Psionic housecleaning would be cool...

Anything about the way the game is set up?
Again, I love it, but my personal dream X-Men game is a bit more multiplayer friendly. Third Person, with a great single player mode that other characters can join in over the net or, if you want, split screen...

For Cyclops' leadership skills, I also had a vision of him offering up targets for a concentrated attack or creating translucent paths for AI and fellow players like a football play as the team pulls some maneuver. Walking in these paths gives players bonuses to the desired action.

Hmm... that one needs work, but that's all I got for right now... again, most of my comments are from being a complete Multiplayer-head...

 

[Herr Logan]

Oh! Oh! Pick Me!
(I have TOO Many game ideas... I'll share my Flash one sometime...)

Okay, I see GL1 has his hand up... Anyone else? Anybody at all, please...? Feh! All right, fine. GL1, what is it now??

Cyclops' guided ricochet shot?
Well first off, to be completely honest, I don't like the whole slo-mo Bond-vision thing, for one reason: I love multiplayer. The thing that made Legends (and the much less fun legends 2) fun was the fact that I had three of my best buddies along for the ride. Having all the intricacies rely on slomotion not only kills any multiplayer factor, but also passes up the possibility of offering superior intuitive controls.

For Cyclops, I would add, in addition to his ability to change the diameter and strength of his blasts, be able to, at certain low diameters, add in a number of bounces, which the computer automatically calculates to hit the maximum number of targets. You're running and gunning as Cyclops, the door opens and tehre's three guys. You snap the R-button and hit X+Y, and a narrow beam comes out, striking one in the head, ricocheting off the wall to strike another knee, ricocheting off the door way to strike third in the chest and send him flying before they level their guns at you. Perhaps a slo mo would add to the coolness factor, but I'll take intuitive controls with optional slo mo anyday, especially if I can have Wolvie and NC by my side taking out the other ten guys in the room.

Perhaps it's the late hour and the sleeping aid I've taken (and my usual level of cognitive choas), but I'm not entirely sure what's going on in that maneuver. Is Cyclops instinctively bouncing his blasts multiple times because he senses more than one enemy in the immediate vacinity on a narrow beam setting, with the difference in control commands being that you added X+Y to R (which I'm assuming is the primary mutant power button here)? That could be very cool.

I totally understand the desire for a more multiplayer-friendly game. The X-Men are, after all, a team. I would absolutely want a whole screen or section of the screen devoted to one character controlled by a single player, though, because I hate the visual and physical format of 'Legends.' I haven't done any online gaming, but I assume that players using completely different screens could play at once and work as a team without compromising their third-person visibility and closeness to the action. It could also be a split-screen mode that, while limiting visibility, does allow the player to really feel close to the action. I also wanted a game that lets you "realistically" play as the X-Men, using the full potential of each character, and that's why I wanted the slow-mo feature. It would be great to collaboratively imagine a middle ground between the two basic formats.

Rogue's stolen memories distracting her in flashes?
Hotness, it wouldn't have to be all that much work either. Minions and thugs could have almost random flashes, and known bosses, sub-bosses and canon characters can have random pictures of different things, things we know... give each of those pics a tenth of second and you've and run 12 of them at random with psycho designs and filters for 1-3 seconds. Boom. Instant fun. Powerful, practical, on point. I LOVE this idea. And who knows, people might ACTUALLY learn to use Rogue's power sparingly!

Glad you like the idea, man. Pushing the player to use Rogue's absorption power sparingly is definitely the motive behind it.

Wolverine's complex sensory system?
Complexity is cool, I'm only worried about the visuals... perhaps I missed something, but having a bunch of colors and labels on the screen ALL the time can really interupt the visual of Wolverine getting into someone's tail. I think it should be a functional option for wolverine to toggle 'all scents' or target a scent. Hearing distant things however, is just cool, I think most people could tune out the things they don't need, or overhear something cool on their own....

Yeah, I think I said something about being able to choose how many labels (if any) appear on the screen for Wolverine. I don't want that stuff cluttering up the screen all the time, either, but I also want to have the option of using the maximum potential of Wolverine's senses. Wolverine has always been one of the least interesting video game characters, since it's basically the issue of to SNIKT or not to SNIKT, and the automatic healing factor. His senses have been explored in 'Wolverine's Revenge,' but I don't want to have to be in a slower movement mode to use the senses, and I think more information can and should be imparted to the player. Perhaps the labels could appear at the bottom of the player's screen in a color-coded key/legend.
I also think you should be able to turn off all olfactory input, since there are situations where it wouldn't help (like down in the sewers, or if assaulted with tear gas, etc.).

Storm being able to change low-speed wind direction?
I almost think you're underselling Storm. I'm thinking Storm can change any wind direction she wants to. As far as I'm concerned, she has the weather menu and she decides what the weather should be like during the entire level. It'd be one thing for weather to go back to normal if she's distracted or KOed, but tornadoes just aren't that hard for her.

Oh, I didn't mean that Storm can only change the wind direction when the wind speed is low; I meant should she have the option of doing so. She can summon a powerful gust of wind to knock a whole cadre of soldiers off their feet, but that won't help Wolverine detect anything with his nose. If she changes the direction of a gentle breeze, or even just creates one (especially indoors), then that would help Wolverine sniff around. Remember, he can only smell things that are upwind of him, so if there's a lot of space downwind of him in which someone or something he should know about could be, it would be useful to have the wind direction shifted. Still, if the wind is blowing too hard, he won't be able to sniff out much. I'm probably still not making sense, but the point is that I want Storm to be able to manipulate the wind on every level of intensity and for Wolverine's scent detection to be contingent on wind direction and wind intensity.

Jean Grey's assortment and system of powers?
Like it, not sure if the telepathic communication should be principle to gameplay, but the reading minds and getting story/keys/codes/direction is, obviously the truth.

I had a Phoenix system where you can see how the phoenix reacts and grows within you based on how you use your powers, ALMOST like a morality system (KOTOR) but with different values/triggers. If you let phoenix get out of control, she'll cause more and more trouble until your character slowly begins to do more and more things on her own... perhaps even unlock a 'within jean's mind level' where you try to reassert control over the phoenix... some gameplay for that Psionic housecleaning would be cool...

The reason I wanted telepathic communication to play a role in team missions is because they're always using that in the comics. It doesn't need to be a key aspect, though.

I hadn't thought too much about the Phoenix Force itself with regard to a new X-Men game, mainly because I didn't want to deal with that. Jean's powers are so extensive already that to add Phoenix's power would complicate things further. That's just my position on it, though, and I'd be happy to hear any further thoughts about this from you or anyone else.

Anything about the way the game is set up?
Again, I love it, but my personal dream X-Men game is a bit more multiplayer friendly. Third Person, with a great single player mode that other characters can join in over the net or, if you want, split screen...

Another reminder of why I should read entire posts before addressing each point. What I said above on this subject, you've already addressed, which is a good thing.

For Cyclops' leadership skills, I also had a vision of him offering up targets for a concentrated attack or creating translucent paths for AI and fellow players like a football play as the team pulls some maneuver. Walking in these paths gives players bonuses to the desired action.

Hmm... that one needs work, but that's all I got for right now... again, most of my comments are from being a complete Multiplayer-head...

I've never played a sports video game in my life, so I'll have to take your word for it.

GL1, thanks so much for your comments. I think there should be some middle ground between multiplayer and a complete immersion experience, but it's hard to let go of the fact that any level of multiplayer-friendliness would make it so players couldn't access more complex maneuvers and plan their moves as carefully, or one or more players would have to wait on any individual player who needed to access their menus. I suppose the in-game interaction menu would still be possible, though. Maybe the full-immersion experience is better suited for the Batman, and I'm still thinking up ideas on that (and everyone else is welcome to comment and post their own ideas on that issue). The Batman puts more precision thinking into each action than any of the X-Men do, anyway, so the extreme slow-mo works great for him but could slow the X-Men down.

Here's a question: how do you allow Nightcrawler to use his teleportation powers the way he does in the comics (that is, he can 'port up to two or three miles at a time, but only into specific places he can see or remember, and not into solid objects) in a multiplayer game? I don't want to be stuck with the range he has in the 'Legends' games.

Thanks again for posting.

 

[Cullen]

Who's the writer on that?

Dan Slott, I think.

 

[Zev]

Rant time.

Anyone who knows me can tell you I'm generally a pretty mellow fellow. I like peace and quiet and solitude and, in general, have a very melancholy disposition. But when the occasion calls for it, I feel obligated to piss and moan just as much as the rest of them. And damnit, the occasion calls for it. Maybe it's the fact that I have a killer headache and the medicine cabinet only has children's Aspirin (WHY?). But I need to get this off my chest.

Now, I'm not what you call a feminist. I haven't read Gloria Steinem, haven't taken a Gender Theory class, don't believe that all gender is imposed by society or whatever they're peddling in schools these days, and in general scoff when a 120-pound blonde is shown knocking around a 250-pound musclebound gorilla on TV because (say it with me now) SHE KNOWS KUNG-FU. So when this gets to a guy like ME, not the most liberal person in the world, you should figure something's up.

I don't like how comics are using rape nowadays. I wasn't comfortable with how it seemed to be a feminine version of "oh no, a loved one has died, I SHALL BECOME A BAT!" (just off the top of my head, both Starfire and post-Crisis Catwoman have origins involving rape). And I'm even less comfortable with it being applied retroactively.

The strongest reason is that it's cowardice, pure and simple. It's gutless, tasteless, tawdry shock value and I don't like it. Death has lost its bite and it's so PERMANENT. Let's just rape 'em! That'll show everyone how edgy and kewl and real we are! Better yet, let's show people how strong the character is by telling them how they were raped in the past and got over it!

I can believe that Matt Murdock never saw fit to mention how he met the love of his life in college or trained with a blind sensei until Frank Miller took the reins. But I can't believe that Sue Dibny or Felicia Hardy just never let on a teensy-tiny, inconsequential thing like being raped until auteurs like Brad Meltzer (well known for those books you buy when you realize you have a long flight ahead of you, forgot to bring anything to read, and the only other option is "The Da Vinci Code") and Kevin Smith (who is well qualified to tell us a tale about the trauma of rape, seeing as how he launched his career with movies about two foul-mouthed potheads) did us the favor of bringing it to our attention.

Did I mention it's gutless? Kevin Smith has never had the guts to stick around, prefering instead to deliver the spectacle of a big, sensational story with shocking deaths and leave other people to clean up the mess. Well, with retroactive rape, forget about having to portray all that messy emotional trauma and the slow road to recovery BECAUSE THEY DID IT ALL WHILE WE WEREN'T LOOKING. It's the difference being a forgettable show like Nip/Tuck and a classic like The Shield.

When Christian Troy was raped on Nip/Tuck, he moped around for a few episodes then got over it by (are you sitting down?) having a threesome. After that he was right as rain, because the show's formula doesn't work with Julian McMahon being a traumatized rape survivor instead of a smooth-talking lothlorio.

When David Aceveda was raped, on the other hand, it was raw and merciless and real. The camera shied away as little as the network would allow, the repercussions were long and hard, and in general it was treated as a genuine story to be told instead of a cheap hook.

So I'm compiling a list of all the comic book heroines who've been raped, especially where it's retroactive or figures into the origin (or both). And I'm asking everyone to contribute. Here's what I've got so far.

Catwoman: Raped by pimp, motivated into becoming Catwoman.

Starfire: Strongly implied rape during slavery, origin.

Ms. Marvel: Become sex slave of own son and taken into another dimension while other Avengers pretty much sat on their duffs and did nothing.

Sue Dibny: Raped during unknown time period (note: never actually CALLED a rape), retroactive, never mentioned until after her brutal murder.

Black Cat: Date rape motivated her to become cat burglar, retroactive.

Grace: Abducted as a child and forced into sex trade, origin.

And in case you were wondering about Black Cat: The Evil Men Do, here's a summary.

First three issues: Witty banter, unresolved sexual tension, buddy movie stuff.

Last three issues: RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE! With a side of rape! Including incestuous anal rape (THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!) and a cliffhanger on whether or not someone was going to be raped and suspense about whether they WERE raped or not and after that, you guessed it, MORE RAPE.

 

[SoulManX]

The problem is there is no more good writers. Not to metion RAPE being a hot topic in superhero land. Plus death is meanless in comic. I wish comics will take some sort stand on age and death. I am waiting for the male raped superhero. I wonder how Batman would cope with Joker giving it to him. Or a super villian getting a weaked Super Man?

 

[Herr Logan]

Zev, I agree with pretty much all you said. I hate this trend as well and see it as a cheap method of shock value. I was already pissed off as hell about Kevin Smith's lazy delivery of 'The Evil That Men Do,' and then I see this crap. Damn good thing I wasn't planning on paying for the last half of it anyway.

Rape is a topic that needs to be addressed in society and taken as seriously as possible. There is no valid argument against that and never will be. However, I don't see why they need to use blatant shock tactics to "spice up" the superhero sagas we've grown up on. I would feel like a complete hypocrite if I said that they shouldn't include rape (as opposed to saying "I wish they wouldn't," which is a valid statement) at all in comic books that used to be published with the Comics Code seal, but they should damn well be better about it and not do what Kevin Smith and Brad Meltzer did. The retroactive tampering thing is tasteless in general, whether the awful acts committed were sexual assault or sexual betrayal or totemistic Spider-God powers. These writers should either create new villains and heroes in long-running hero sagas to introduce these themes, or they should start their own books and keep it there, but don't try to cram some dirty little secret into a well-established character's past.

One reason I personally don't want to see rape in a Marvel or DC comic is because my own reaction to the very mention of the subject conjures the same basic statement: all rapists should be buried, be it alive (in prison until death) or dead (in the ground). Spider-Man, Daredevil, Superman and even the Batman don't have the stomach for what needs to be done. I'm certainly not suggesting that they should change any of the goody-goody heroes to fit our supposedly "darker times." I'm saying they should keep most rape stories in the superhero world relegated to books where the reader can get some God damn satisfaction. This is fantasy, not true crime, and it's supposed to make the reader feel better about their own problems. That's the difference between a superhero story created to make money and a gruesome crime story created to make money. Keep the traditionally light-hearted stories light (that even includes Batman stories to some degree, and I'm not even talking about pre-Miller, pre-Crisis, whatever). If you have to write a story about rape, put it in the Punisher's book or Wolverine's solo book. At least then an adult who reads comic books to avoid reading his criminology textbooks can get some piece of mind for once.

I actually think the way Kevin Smith told the Black Cat's incident in college was a decent way to present the subject. That is, if it wasn't taking place in the past of an established character. If he wanted to start his own book with a new superheroine who had that happen to her, that would have been fine, but he peddled his trash in the venue, lazy bastard that he is.

People aren't allowed to defend artistic failures in this thread, but in case, somewhere else, anyone tells any of you with this kind of grievance that "modern" stories should reflect "modern" times, or whatever, tell them that the rape rate isn't higher now in this country than it was before. Rape awareness is higher now (not nearly high enough, though), and they actually prosecute it as a crime once in a while now. These characters are supposed to be timeless, so they should keep them that way and save the heavier subjects for where there's a hero willing to deal with them.

 

[Saph]

I just HAD to post this. This is one poster's suggestion of how to adapt Sandman's vacuum cleaner defeat from ASM #4 to the big screen:

I think final battle should happen at an airport.

an adaptation of the original vacuum idea would be to have sandman pass through a working gas turbine engine being sucked through (since spidey can stick down, he'll use all his strength to resist)

with the high temperaturatures and the vacuum like action occuring, sandy would come through on the other side as shades of glass or some kinda super heated silicon based creature. or at the very least it should make him be able to deform his body, but not be able separate into individual strands of sand so he has to remain a single entity.

Genius, I say.

 

[Cullen]

Zev, I agree with pretty much all you said. I hate this trend as well and see it as a cheap method of shock value. I was already pissed off as hell about Kevin Smith's lazy delivery of 'The Evil That Men Do,' and then I see this crap. Damn good thing I wasn't planning on paying for the last half of it anyway.

Remember when Smith was going to be put on Amazing Spider-man? One wonders how things would be different now if he had.

Not too hard, mind you, but the question does arise in my mind.

Rape is a topic that needs to be addressed in society and taken as seriously as possible. There is no valid argument against that and never will be. However, I don't see why they need to use blatant shock tactics to "spice up" the superhero sagas we've grown up on. I would feel like a complete hypocrite if I said that they shouldn't include rape (as opposed to saying "I wish they wouldn't," which is a valid statement) at all in comic books that used to be published with the Comics Code seal, but they should damn well be better about it and not do what Kevin Smith and Brad Meltzer did. The retroactive tampering thing is tasteless in general, whether the awful acts committed were sexual assault or sexual betrayal or totemistic Spider-God powers. These writers should either create new villains and heroes in long-running hero sagas to introduce these themes, or they should start their own books and keep it there, but don't try to cram some dirty little secret into a well-established character's past.

I agree completely.

One reason I personally don't want to see rape in a Marvel or DC comic is because my own reaction to the very mention of the subject conjures the same basic statement: all rapists should be buried, be it alive (in prison until death) or dead (in the ground). Spider-Man, Daredevil, Superman and even the Batman don't have the stomach for what needs to be done. I'm certainly not suggesting that they should change any of the goody-goody heroes to fit our supposedly "darker times." I'm saying they should keep most rape stories in the superhero world relegated to books where the reader can get some God damn satisfaction. This is fantasy, not true crime, and it's supposed to make the reader feel better about their own problems. That's the difference between a superhero story created to make money and a gruesome crime story created to make money. Keep the traditionally light-hearted stories light (that even includes Batman stories to some degree, and I'm not even talking about pre-Miller, pre-Crisis, whatever). If you have to write a story about rape, put it in the Punisher's book or Wolverine's solo book. At least then an adult who reads comic books to avoid reading his criminology textbooks can get some piece of mind for once.

Dunno about this. Rape is a horrible crime, but so is murder. So is mass murder. The last two have been a staple of comic books since the start and both are capital punishment crimes. If handled tastefully and not exploitively, I believe that any subject should be open to the writer, whether he or she is doing Spider-man or the Punisher or what-have-you.

I'm not pulling for it, you understand. I'm not looking for a twelve part multi-titled crossover on the matter. My life will not be poorer if I never see the subject appear again. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be there to be dealt with.

I actually think the way Kevin Smith told the Black Cat's incident in college was a decent way to present the subject. That is, if it wasn't taking place in the past of an established character. If he wanted to start his own book with a new superheroine who had that happen to her, that would have been fine, but he peddled his trash in the venue, lazy bastard that he is.

People aren't allowed to defend artistic failures in this thread, but in case, somewhere else, anyone tells any of you with this kind of grievance that "modern" stories should reflect "modern" times, or whatever, tell them that the rape rate isn't higher now in this country than it was before. Rape awareness is higher now (not nearly high enough, though), and they actually prosecute it as a crime once in a while now. These characters are supposed to be timeless, so they should keep them that way and save the heavier subjects for where there's a hero willing to deal with them.

Again, I don't quite agree.

I'm not saying every issue of Spider-man, etc. should be a "Very Special Issue", dealing with some social wrong doing. In fact, I'd rather they all went back closer to their pulp adventure roots and be more like the Shadow than anything else. But suggesting they shouldn't because they're timeless seems to be limiting the potential for powerful stories.

One could make the case that stories about substance abuse shouldn't be allowed in comics. It, too, is a heavy issue. And yet we've had excellent stories dealing with the subject.

Just because some hacks use the subject in an exploitive way doesn't mean the subject shouldn't be brought up.

 

[Herr Logan]

Remember when Smith was going to be put on Amazing Spider-man? One wonders how things would be different now if he had.

Not too hard, mind you, but the question does arise in my mind.

I agree completely.

Dunno about this. Rape is a horrible crime, but so is murder. So is mass murder. The last two have been a staple of comic books since the start and both are capital punishment crimes. If handled tastefully and not exploitively, I believe that any subject should be open to the writer, whether he or she is doing Spider-man or the Punisher or what-have-you.

I'm not pulling for it, you understand. I'm not looking for a twelve part multi-titled crossover on the matter. My life will not be poorer if I never see the subject appear again. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be there to be dealt with.




Again, I don't quite agree.

I'm not saying every issue of Spider-man, etc. should be a "Very Special Issue", dealing with some social wrong doing. In fact, I'd rather they all went back closer to their pulp adventure roots and be more like the Shadow than anything else. But suggesting they shouldn't because they're timeless seems to be limiting the potential for powerful stories.

One could make the case that stories about substance abuse shouldn't be allowed in comics. It, too, is a heavy issue. And yet we've had excellent stories dealing with the subject.

Just because some hacks use the subject in an exploitive way doesn't mean the subject shouldn't be brought up.

I say, to all of this, fair enough, and thank you for posting as well.

My various mood, anxiety, digestive and learning disorders* are acting up far too much and too simultaneously right now for me to re-read my own words from earlier (which is really saying something, because I usually love to read my own commentary... I realize that's not a surprise to many of you loyal readers), but I'm relatively sure I said something along the lines of many of my comments mostly being from personal preference, and I meant it. You're absolutely right to be wary of strict content guidelines that limit a story's potential.

I am still 100% adamant about it being morally and professionally wrong for egotistical writers to retroactively inject trashy or exploitative storylines into previously well-established characters' fictional lives, however. That's a content restriction I think is far more than fair. Aside from that, however, with regard to contemporary stories and events that are new both in reality and intended in the chronology of a mythology, it's a fine line.

I've just begun reading 'Superman on the Couch' by Danny Fingeroth, and the chapter I'm on professes that most popular mainstream superheroes that have been around for several decades are essentially static characters. He cites Superman's and Spider-Man's respective marriages, and similar changes in long-running storylines, as being examples of an illusion of change. He asserts that modern-day superheroes, like the gods of various pantheons of millenia-old mythologies, are meant to be static to a certain degree. Clearly they change with the times they live in, but that does not mandate a severe change in personality. From my own research, I've seen how certain characters have gone through radical changes as a result of era-sensitive censorship (the Batman is the prime example of this), but that isn't the same as the change in Spider-Man, who was created at a time where the rules were more lenient and he hasn't changed all that drastically. Also, take a look at the Batman post-Crisis; he's remained mostly static for the most part, and that's an essential part of his character. The Batman is forever trapped in a state of post-traumatic stress and cannot evolve as a person very much at all, and that's how many people (myself included) prefer him. The way that more upbeat characters (ex. Spider-Man and Superman) remain unchanging is that they refuse to change their moral codes (aside from the odd event where Superman executes three alternate dimension Kryptonians and goes insane for several months... a storyline I haven't actually read).

I can't speak for Superman comics, but from the many, many Spider-Man comics I've read from past and present eras, I have to say that there is a discernable difference in how he was written then and how he's written now, aside from the basic difference that there are no more romantic subplots for the hero a-brewin'. Spider-Man is more "boring" now, because he's grown up more. Again, that's not actually all that drastic, compared to heroes that were forced to regress in tone, and that's a difference I can tolerate. I cannot, however, tolerate brand new superfluous powers and an idiot Iron-wear costume. These heroes are symbolic, and many of the ones writers insist on changing were doing fine in the context of the stories (if not desired sales) with their original powers and costumes. Spider-Man is one of the most physically versatile and capable heroes in comics, and most of the X-Men who got those idiotic "secondary mutations" didn't need them. But, I suppose the inherent fatal flaw in fiction is that it gets to the point where everything has been done and all stories are essentially recycled from somewhere. What these writers need to understand, admit and live by is that all their big "shake-up" event stories are just recycled from some other modern mythology, and the more they introduce radically new elements, the less distinctive-- and thus, less valuable-- the characters and sagas become.

Okay, back to Cullen's points--
The initial Spider-Man stories that dealt with drugs were done well, like you said, and not exploitative. They were actually suggested by people very high up in the government (possibly including President Nixon, but I can't recall for certain), even though the Comics Code committee didn't care and wouldn't approve of those three issues. Having Harry Osborn-- a clearly weak and troubled character from early on-- use and get addicted to drugs is infinitely more tasteful than going back and rewriting any character's history. The Black Cat's immature and psychologically messed-up past was reasonably well-documented and did not require the added impetus of a college rape to make her turn to crime. She was an intelligent, troubled girl who craved her father's attention and used her risk-seeking urges and good genes to become a top-rate athlete and got her kicks stealing and setting traps for interlopers. Then she became obsessed with Spider-Man and his do-gooder ways rubbed off on her after she faked it for a while and then grew up. I don't see how she needs a rape crammed into imaginary back-issues to make her a viable costumed adventurer. Any slight bit of stimulus in the Marvel Universe was all that was ever needed to push a character into wearing tights and doing something dangerous or illegal. It's just that kind of world. Sexual abuse on girls or young women often does lead to risky behavior, so let's give a huge round of applause to Kevin Smith for the deep insight he took from either any possible TV show or a rudimentary class or book on juvenile delinquincy or sex crimes. Save it for new characters, you lazy, pretentious pot-head!
I should make sure to ask our fellow poster Symbiotica, a staunch denouncer of the Black Cat from the beginning, what her thoughts on this new "revelation" are as a worker in the mental healthcare field.

What were we talking about again? Oh yes... pie. A free pie goes to the first person who sends me about $4.95!





*Everyone give a warm welcome to ADHD, who's actually been contributing to my life's journey all along but has just recently been officially diagnosed. ADHD, why don't you take a seat between generalized anxiety disorder and dysthymia.