Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Zaphod]

By the way (for those following the Batman movie discussion), I'd be perfectly happy with calling the first film in my ideal franchise 'Batman: Year One' if it didn't mean letting Frank Miller run the show. I don't want Catwoman to be a dominatrix ****e, and I don't want the Bruce Wayne saving James Gordon Jr. from the corrupt cops while wearing civvies in broad daylight.

If the first movie was called 'Batman: Year One,' then sequel titles will be hard to come up with. I don't want to call the second one 'Year Two,' as the purist in me would feel obliged to include the Reaper and a Joe Chill sub-plot in which the Batman picks up a gun in preparation to murder Chill.
Perhaps it's best to stick to 'The Batman' and just use numbers afterward. I considered using nicknames, but that could only last through two sequels before getting into shaky territory. It would basically go 'Dark Knight,' 'World's Greatest Detective,' and then, in whichever order, 'Dynamic Duo,' 'Caped Crusader.' That's not going to invoke the right images in the public's and fans' minds.
Also, movies with subtitles (as in, something following a colon in the title, not captions for the hearing impaired or movie line buffs) almost always suck.

How about, with the first three movies:

• Movie 1: The Batman
• Movie 2: Batman: Dark Knight
• Movie 3: Batman: Dark Knight Detective

 

[Herr Logan]

Sir, I beg to differ, as the greatest sequel of all time, Terminator 2, had a subtitle.

Unfortunately, so does Jurassic Park 2: The Lost World. Hmmm...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

And it's gonna be hard to define Catwoman without the dominatrix hooker thing, as beyond that she's either an airline stewardess with amnesia or an evil pet shop owner. I think either of those things would be laughed out of the cinema just as quickly as CINO.

Perhaps just not mention her background and, in a revealing moment, have her slap around a pimp while saying something along the lines of "I know what your kind is capable of."

'Terminator 2' is the exception I always keep in mind when I tell people most subtitled movies suck. I forgot to mention it earlier.

In current comics continuity, what's Catwoman's backstory? Are they going with Frank Miller's special contribution there"?

 

[Zaphod]

A summary of details in relation to Batman himself.

Batman's costume and equipment:

• Dark grey and black costume, with plain black-bat insignia. Black trunks used as a rappel harness, with the brown utility belt, made from material pouches attached, along with keepers to fasten and secure in place to the harness. Regular cape, Nomex fire-resistant to some degree, used more as diversionary tactic in firefights. Tight fitting material cowl, which would mould into a harder material for the face and horns of the mask from the neck upwards. Scallops attached to the arms and gloves, used in similar vain to that shown in Begins. Black boots. Thin layer of chest armour underneath costume, flexible. Reflective eye lenses double as both infra-red vision and night-vision. Embedded in horns, directional microphones.
• Content of utility-belt include: Grappling gun, smoke bombs, flash bang's, batarangs, shruiken, gas pellets, lock-pick, micro-camera, communication device, gas-mask, line-wire, pain-killers, small forensic kit for impromptu crime-scene invistigations.

Batmobile:

Black sports car, modified and upgraded. Tail-fins attached, suped-up and modifed engine for maximum speed and maneouvability, front-grill for powerfully barging though obstacles. Embossed bat pattern over front bonnet. Reinforced tyres, reinforced glass. Compact medical and forensic station in the rear and trunk of the car. Self-destruct mechanism in case of emergency capture. Something closely resembling this in appearence.

The Batcave:

As you say, a cross between the Begins cave and the Batman89 cave. In this first movie, there will be a host of regular computer terminals, and one large central computer which feeds off of all the other smaller terminals. The many uses of the computer would be analysing evidence, hacking, analysing psychological profiles, developing pictures into digital format, planning digital schematics. There would be a small medical station, and a slightly larger forensic laboratory. There would also be a large table where a map of Gotham would be placed, along with various drawn out schematics for later digital transfer, including those for the batsuit, gadgets, the bat-glider, and the batmobile. Steel floor would be laid down for underneath where these stations are located, aswell as a large rotating structure where the Batmobile would rest. Bats would inhabit the cave, and while it's interior is gloomy, it is adequately lighted.

That concludes the summary.

 

[Cullen]

In current comics continuity, what's Catwoman's backstory? Are they going with Frank Miller's special contribution there"?

An answer, good sir:

It is currently unclear how much of these stories remain canonical to Catwoman’s current origin, as various stories and editors' statements over the years since then have stated that Selina was never a prostitute and that other events depicted in those stories never happened. Zero Hour was used to retcon her history as a prostitute; the Catwoman: Year One story (Catwoman Annual # 2, 1998) stated that she had only been posing as a prostitute; unaffecting her appearance in Batman: Year One while completely erasing the 1989 Catwoman limited series. Batman editor Dennis O'Neil later stated that in the post-Zero Hour continuity, Catwoman had never been a prostitute. However, characters introduced in those stories (such as Selina’s young friend Holly from Batman: Year One and her sister Maggie from the 1989 miniseries) continue to appear regularly in the Catwoman series, and aspects of those plots are occasionally referenced, including recent issues that show Hollie remembering her days as a prostitute with Catwoman (which contradict the idea of her merely posing to be one).

In udder words, it all depends on whos writin' th' mag at th' time.

All this and more can be found over at Wikipedia.

Your Friendly, Neighborhood Cullen
​

 

[Herr Logan]

I want to apologize to Zaphod for not responding yet. I'm having computer issues currently, and am using a different computer than the one that has my response-in-progress. I'll try to get it finished and posted soon.

 

[Herr Logan]

An answer, good sir:

In udder words, it all depends on whos writin' th' mag at th' time.

All this and more can be found over at Wikipedia.

Your Friendly, Neighborhood Cullen
​

Thank you very much, Cullen.

I'm thinking I probably wouldn't even need to give Catwoman a backstory in a movie. She'd just be what she is-- a skilled cat burglar who can fight, and has a thing for the Batman. She would likely be a side subplot, perhaps fitting into the crime drama storyline in some way, but it would never be a serious romance and it would never get mushy, and if any identity is revealed at all, it would only be Selina Kyle.

 

[Cullen]

Thank you very much, Cullen.

I'm thinking I probably wouldn't even need to give Catwoman a backstory in a movie. She'd just be what she is-- a skilled cat burglar who can fight, and has a thing for the Batman. She would likely be a side subplot, perhaps fitting into the crime drama storyline in some way, but it would never be a serious romance and it would never get mushy, and if any identity is revealed at all, it would only be Selina Kyle.

Not a problem. The question raised my own curiousity.

 

[Zaphod]

I want to apologize to Zaphod for not responding yet. I'm having computer issues currently, and am using a different computer than the one that has my response-in-progress. I'll try to get it finished and posted soon.

Unjustifiable!! I demand a response, and I demand it now!



That's fine Herr, I trust that the time being taken is more a reflection on the detail and care put in, rather than the laziness and impertinence of the typist. Of course I could always be wrong...

Thank you very much, Cullen.

I'm thinking I probably wouldn't even need to give Catwoman a backstory in a movie. She'd just be what she is-- a skilled cat burglar who can fight, and has a thing for the Batman. She would likely be a side subplot, perhaps fitting into the crime drama storyline in some way, but it would never be a serious romance and it would never get mushy, and if any identity is revealed at all, it would only be Selina Kyle.

Actually, I quite like the idea of blending that portrayal of Catwomen along with that off Selina "posing" as a Prostitute. It could work well, while also maintaining some satisfactory parrallel's with Year One Catwomen, it wouldn't make the character a direct translation from that comic. This is how I envision it from those two seperate continuity's:

The Catwomen is a highly skilled, highly trained cat-burgular, who's exploits have made her well known throughout the ranks of Gothams GCPD and the many gangs at streets-level in Gotham. Even Carmine Falcone knows about her through heresays, rumours and reported thefts linking to the fatal femme. While she is cunning, deceptive and seductive, often in the name of aquiring yet more stolen goods, she isn't completely without ideals or morals. The Catwomen is disgusted by the apparent male dominance over the women at street-level, especially in the prostitution racket enforced by the many pimps, and she wishes to set an example in herself for such women to use there sexuality not as a tool to serve men, but to overcome and dominate them in the same way she is. There could be a scene where Batman prepares to take out a pimp who's getting rough with some of his girls, when just as he is about to strike at the critical moment, one of the 'prostitutes' lashes out and takes out the pimp in truly lethal and theatrical fashion. That same 'prostitute' (who it doesn't need to be said, is obviously Selina in disguise) is about kill the pimp (or at least it is implied), when Batman swoops in to stop her before she does. The rest of the girls who have witnessed this flee in terror, and the Catwomen and Batman are left to battle it out, with Catwomen on the offensive and Batman having to carefully fend of the attacks without causing serious harm. After the encounter, the two would share an exchange, during which it would be revealed Selina's aims in defending the oppressed womenhood of Gotham, and in overcoming the stagnation that crime has caused life for the people of Gotham into being, by taking rather than asking. This is Catwomen's philosophy.

I'm thinking that perhaps Catwomen would work better in the next movie, perhaps we could be first introduced to her somewhere in the opening, with a scene similar to the one I just described, so that we could show how Batman's emergence in Gotham has influenced other costumed-antics in a similar vain, and also show Carime Falcone having his face being scarred by the Catwomen's claws. Not writing it out of a first movie completely, but with an origin to deal with aswell as the central plot of Batman's investigation in this one, it may feel cramed in and underdeveloped as a result of everything else.

 

[Herr Logan]

Unjustifiable!! I demand a response, and I demand it now!



That's fine Herr, I trust that the time being taken is more a reflection on the detail and care put in, rather than the laziness and impertinence of the typist. Of course I could always be wrong...

It also reflects that some difficulties popped up yesterday, but it's the level of detail that prevented me from getting it all down in time. Hell, even now I'm still writing out a semi-detailed outline of the childhood scenes in the origin, jumping from age 6 to 8 to 14 and onward (I'm almost done with the 14th year, which is where you see what Bruce has been doing since that horrible night six years earlier, and what he intends to do; there's also a lot of stuff with Alfred and also Leslie there). I'll try to make it worth your while, and I'll try to break up my responses based on sub-sections of response posts, instead of the entire post.

 

[Zaphod]

It also reflects that some difficulties popped up yesterday, but it's the level of detail that prevented me from getting it all down in time. Hell, even now I'm still writing out a semi-detailed outline of the childhood scenes in the origin, jumping from age 6 to 8 to 14 and onward (I'm almost done with the 14th year, which is where you see what Bruce has been doing since that horrible night six years earlier, and what he intends to do; there's also a lot of stuff with Alfred and also Leslie there). I'll try to make it worth your while, and I'll try to break up my responses based on sub-sections of response posts, instead of the entire post.

Much appreciated. I have some origin stuff that I need to post here aswell truth be told, although I'm sure its far more general that whatever it is you're planning to shower me with in your pending post, we'll see. Either way, I'll wait for you to finish your current rundown and then I'll post my responses. along with my details on the origin.

 

[Herr Logan]

Actually, I quite like the idea of blending that portrayal of Catwomen along with that off Selina "posing" as a Prostitute. It could work well, while also maintaining some satisfactory parrallel's with Year One Catwomen, it wouldn't make the character a direct translation from that comic. This is how I envision it from those two seperate continuity's:

The Catwomen is a highly skilled, highly trained cat-burgular, who's exploits have made her well known throughout the ranks of Gothams GCPD and the many gangs at streets-level in Gotham. Even Carmine Falcone knows about her through heresays, rumours and reported thefts linking to the fatal femme. While she is cunning, deceptive and seductive, often in the name of aquiring yet more stolen goods, she isn't completely without ideals or morals. The Catwomen is disgusted by the apparent male dominance over the women at street-level, especially in the prostitution racket enforced by the many pimps, and she wishes to set an example in herself for such women to use there sexuality not as a tool to serve men, but to overcome and dominate them in the same way she is. There could be a scene where Batman prepares to take out a pimp who's getting rough with some of his girls, when just as he is about to strike at the critical moment, one of the 'prostitutes' lashes out and takes out the pimp in truly lethal and theatrical fashion. That same 'prostitute' (who it doesn't need to be said, is obviously Selina in disguise) is about kill the pimp (or at least it is implied), when Batman swoops in to stop her before she does. The rest of the girls who have witnessed this flee in terror, and the Catwomen and Batman are left to battle it out, with Catwomen on the offensive and Batman having to carefully fend of the attacks without causing serious harm. After the encounter, the two would share an exchange, during which it would be revealed Selina's aims in defending the oppressed womenhood of Gotham, and in overcoming the stagnation that crime has caused life for the people of Gotham into being, by taking rather than asking. This is Catwomen's philosophy.

I'm thinking that perhaps Catwomen would work better in the next movie, perhaps we could be first introduced to her somewhere in the opening, with a scene similar to the one I just described, so that we could show how Batman's emergence in Gotham has influenced other costumed-antics in a similar vain, and also show Carime Falcone having his face being scarred by the Catwomen's claws. Not writing it out of a first movie completely, but with an origin to deal with aswell as the central plot of Batman's investigation in this one, it may feel cramed in and underdeveloped as a result of everything else.

I am personally not in favor of most of this. I'm not down with Catwoman being some murderous role model for women, like she fancied herself (briefly) in 'Batman Returns'. I prefer that she be a cat-burglar first, and a vigilante that prefers not to kill second (which will pronounce just how rigid the Batman's moral standards, fear of commitment, and borderline hypocrisy are, since it would be all too easy for him to reject her if she was willing to kill, without even having to explain it).
One thing I could take from 'Year One' is the idea of the Batman inspiring Catwoman to get a animal-totem themed costume and take on criminals instead of just tending to her own affairs (like stealing from rich people).

From 'Dark Victory,' it is pretty much stated outright that Carmine Falcone is Selina's father. I don't need that mess cluttering up my movie. I can, however, easily see how she would take an interest in him, stealing his stuff and scratching his face in his own home.
In the comics of the current era, Selina Kyle lives in an apartment in a neighborhood on the East Side of Gotham City. She has staked out this territory as her own, requiring other vigilantes to respect her dominion, much like the Batman does with every superhero in the DC Universe. I'm not sure how it works between the Batman and Catwoman regarding the East Side, but that doesn't matter for these purposes.
Here's my idea:

Falcone's syndicate has been weakened, the police force has, while still largely corrupt, severed almost all ties to Falcone in that most of the cops in his pocket were thrown off the Job and the prospective cops left won't work with him. Things are too hot for both the Falcone Family and the GCPD for them to feed the flames of scandal. This being the case, Falcone's men need to acclimate to this new way of life and avoid encounters with the police whenever possible. The East Side is one of those areas where the designated police presence is lower than other areas. Crimes are less likely to be deterred or stopped in progress here. Falcone's people make this area a new priority for staking a claim and setting up extortion patterns, etc.
This should be explained by the end of the first movie, maybe with the newly (and grudgingly, for the sake of good PR but no less deservedly) promoted Captain Gordon telling Harvey Dent what the new police distribution patterns are looking like as of right after the indictments on the arrested criminals (including the ones with badges) and the shift in power in the city. The Batman is right outside the window, or right inside, depending on where the best shadows are. This is for his benefit as much as for Dent's, and of course the audience's.
After that, we see Carmine "The Roman" Falcone in his office or home office (I don't even remember what legitimate job he's supposed to be holding, if any), talking to his Consigliere (who, despite whatever Mafia movies you may have seen, is not so much of an advisor as the official liason between the boss and his men, although he can also advise). The Consigliere tells Falcone that, while several shopkeepers have accepted their "protection" (extortion), some of the men ran into some trouble. They claim an athletic figure in a skin-tight black suit and pointy cowl-ears handed their asses to them and chased them out of the neighborhood. The Roman rubs his temples and asks, "The Bat?"
"No," a sexy female voice says from the shadows. "The Cat."
She leaps out of the shadows, knocking the Consigliere to the floor with a powerful kick before he can draw his gun, and advances slowly on Carmine.
Carmine, in his arrogant, righteous indignation says calmly but fiercely, "In my own home, you attack my people??"
"Fair is fair," says the Catwoman dismissively, who then rakes three of her claws across the Roman's face on one side. Without humor she says, "Stay out of the East End. Or else."
Cartwheels over to the window, picking up some expensive keepsake from the nearby mantle, and exits. Audience geeks out.

This could be the very last scene, but I assume fans would rather have the Batsignal unveiling at the very end instead of right before the Catwoman scene.
I'd like the costume to be somewhat similar to how it is in the comics now. It seems sufficiently catlike and is sexy as hell.


My idea for the first time we see the Catwoman (still in the first movie), which is right after we see the Batman in action for the very first time:

Several violent muggers retreat through a building all the way to a rooftop (which is, of course, idiotic, but that's Gotham street trash for you) after seeing a forboding, shadowing figure swooping towards them after they initiated a robbery of a middle-aged couple on the sidewalk. They slam open the door to the roof and then stop to take a breath while looking over the side. They start looking at each other and laughing at their own foolishness.
In the window of a much taller building nearby, looking down, a figure in a black cat suit (that just means a skintight suit that covers pretty much everything, not a cat-themed suit... if I mean a costume I'll captalize "Cat") and balaclava (what Movie!Spider-Man wore on his head to the wrestling arena in 'Spider-Man') is rigging a rappelling apparatus to descend down the building with a duffel bag full of goodies. The figure leans out and observes the scene below.

Thug #1: "What the hell are we scared for, man?"
Thug #2: "Some idiot on the top level drops a bathrobe out a window on a breezy night and we panic?"
Thug #3: "Hey, we got the money, didn't we? Nobody else saw us, we don't tell no one we got punked by a shadowy nothin', okay?"
Batman: "Wrong. You're going to tell everybody."
​

The thugs pull their guns again and look for the source of the voice, but there's no one in sight. A small Bat-shuriken flies out of nowhere, almost unseen by even the audience, striking Thug #3's right hand. Thug #3 screams in pain and drops his gun. The Batman comes out of nowhere and hits Thug #1 hard enough to knock him several yards. He's out of the picture. Thug #2 starts shooting wildy at him, and the Batman moves laterally (as in, across instead of forward) with unbelievable speed to avoid the shots.

Thug #3: "Man, you can't shoot for $hit!"
Thug #2: "How 'bout you do some shootin' yourself or shut your God damn mouth?!"
Thug #3: He broke my God damn hand, and I can't shoot lefty! What's your excuse?"​

The Batman pulls out a Batarang and throws it wide, nowhere close to Thug #2 or his gun, and spreads his cape out like wings.

Thug #2: "Yeah? Well it looks like Dracula here can't shoot for $hit, neither."​

The Batman is smiling grimly and starts walking toward them in pretty much a straight line, still holding his cape wide. Thug #2 unloads the remaining bullets at the Batman, who moves just slightly but gracefully every time the gun fires. The Batman seems completely unharmed, although the bullets presumably hit him this time (the audience will know either before or after this scene that the cape is made to be bulletproof, and the bullets hit the cape, not his body, and the criminals couldn't see that). Both remaining thugs are horrified that he didn't even flinch when he got hit, as even Kevlar vests won't keep you from getting knocked on your ass and ribs broke, especially with that many bullets. Thug #2 is out of bullets.
The Batman lowers his cape but raises his arm and points directly at Thug #2. The audience sees the Batarang thrown a moment ago (the one that "missed") flying straight for the back of the thug's head, which knocks him out instantly and he pitches forward.
Thug #3 didn't necessarily see the Batarang, but he definitely saw the Batman simply pointing and his cronie just screamed and fell down. He looks like he's about to wet his pants as the Batman starts walking toward him again and he tries to pick up his gun with his left hand and defend himself. His hand can't stop shaking and the Batman closes the distance at a brisk but calm walking pace and snatches the gun out of his hand.
He grabs him by his shirt and easily lifts the reasonably large thug off his feet, walking over to the roof's edge, pulling him in so they're face to face while the thug's feet dangle over open space.

Thug #3: "Please, please don't kill me!"
Batman: "You're trespassing, scumbag."
Thug #3: "Trespassing? You don't own the night!"
Batman: "Tell your friends. Tell all your friends. I am the night. ​

The Batman tosses the thug back onto the roof on his stomach. Stepping on his back, the Batman pulls his hands together behind his back and fastens them with Flexi-Cuffs (nylon handcuffs used in law enforcement... this will be before he fashions his own brand that can only be cut with a diamond-edged tool). The thug can turn his head enough to see the Batman jump off the edge of the roof with his cape spread dramatically.

The black-clad figure hanging out the window of the other building has seen all of this. She pulls off her balaclava and is still staring. "Damn," she says, impressed by the display. She stares at the head mask she just took off with a pensive look on her face. Busting criminals... cowl ears... hmm...

So whether she sees the Batman on the first night or any other night, he could be an inspiration to her in that way.

I think she could figure into the organized crime plot that continues into the next movie. Falcone is squeezing the East End, and Catwoman is now targeting his businesses (any that have things that can be stolen, or at least wrecked), and she has a big bounty on her head. The Batman would figure out that those two things are related and will eventually figure out where Catwoman lives, and will eventually figure out who she is. They will help each other in some ways and they will also have physical fights, and of course a lot of flirting on the part of Catwoman and maybe a little bit from the Batman when he figures he can use it as a distraction technique. I want it made clear that whatever keeps the Batman from defeating Catwoman easily in a fight is not her level of skill. I'm sorry, but I can't accept that someone who hasn't even had any formal martial arts training and isn't a superhuman can hold her own against a guy who trained for years and years to be the absolute best and keeps the title through merit. It has to be because she fights dirty, or he genuinely doesn't want to hurt her, or something. In any case, I want some good fights, but I don't want a repeat of 'Batman Returns' where he has to resort to extreme measures like using corrosive acid on Catwoman because he was too stupid to defend himself properly in the first place.
The Batman will eventually attempt to make a "citizen's arrest" and hand her over to the cops, but whether she escapes because of her ingenuity or because the Batman lets her go (he may let her go and still let her think she got away on her own, though, just as an option), I don't know yet.

Don't worry, the Mafia/Catwoman stuff won't dominate the whole second film. We've got some funny, whacky stuff we need to spotlight as well. Let the crazy begin!


Comments?

 

[Zaphod]

I am personally not in favor of most of this. I'm not down with Catwoman being some murderous role model for women, like she fancied herself (briefly) in 'Batman Returns'. I prefer that she be a cat-burglar first, and a vigilante that prefers not to kill second (which will pronounce just how rigid the Batman's moral standards, fear of commitment, and borderline hypocrisy are, since it would be all too easy for him to reject her if she was willing to kill, without even having to explain it).

Well, what I had in mind was to focus first on the essential basics of her central character: the femme fatal cat -burglar, inspired in part by having witnessed Batman's antics, and with a penchant for seduction, cunning and deception in getting her job done. The way in which I envisioned any "feminist-driven motive characteristics! surfacing was when the Catwomen was to shift her focus from mere burglary, to attacking and defending what she considers to be her 'home-turf' (the East End, in this case). Once she began causing trouble for Falcone's men, we'd see Catwomen attack some Pimp's at street-level, disguised as a prostitute, with dellusions of grandeur in wanting to liberate Gotham in a similar way to the Batman. I'll gladly renounce the plot-points of Catwomen digressing her aims as to do with 'sexual-liberty and freedom' for the women of Gotham (in hindsight I do realise it was a contrived way to add more weight to her character) however I could imagine a scenario involving Catwomen attacking a Pimp-racket while disguised a 'call-girl' working in a movie.

Here's my idea:

Falcone's syndicate has been weakened, the police force has, while still largely corrupt, severed almost all ties to Falcone in that most of the cops in his pocket were thrown off the Job and the prospective cops left won't work with him. Things are too hot for both the Falcone Family and the GCPD for them to feed the flames of scandal. This being the case, Falcone's men need to acclimate to this new way of life and avoid encounters with the police whenever possible. The East Side is one of those areas where the designated police presence is lower than other areas. Crimes are less likely to be deterred or stopped in progress here. Falcone's people make this area a new priority for staking a claim and setting up extortion patterns, etc.
This should be explained by the end of the first movie, maybe with the newly (and grudgingly, for the sake of good PR but no less deservedly) promoted Captain Gordon telling Harvey Dent what the new police distribution patterns are looking like as of right after the indictments on the arrested criminals (including the ones with badges) and the shift in power in the city. The Batman is right outside the window, or right inside, depending on where the best shadows are. This is for his benefit as much as for Dent's, and of course the audience's.
After that, we see Carmine "The Roman" Falcone in his office or home office (I don't even remember what legitimate job he's supposed to be holding, if any), talking to his Consigliere (who, despite whatever Mafia movies you may have seen, is not so much of an advisor as the official liason between the boss and his men, although he can also advise). The Consigliere tells Falcone that, while several shopkeepers have accepted their "protection" (extortion), some of the men ran into some trouble. They claim an athletic figure in a skin-tight black suit and pointy cowl-ears handed their asses to them and chased them out of the neighborhood. The Roman rubs his temples and asks, "The Bat?"
"No," a sexy female voice says from the shadows. "The Cat."
She leaps out of the shadows, knocking the Consigliere to the floor with a powerful kick before he can draw his gun, and advances slowly on Carmine.
Carmine, in his arrogant, righteous indignation says calmly but fiercely, "In my own home, you attack my people??"
"Fair is fair," says the Catwoman dismissively, who then rakes three of her claws across the Roman's face on one side. Without humor she says, "Stay out of the East End. Or else."
Cartwheels over to the window, picking up some expensive keepsake from the nearby mantle, and exits. Audience geeks out.

I like it . I wasn't advocating the 'Falcone/Selina' plot-point from 'Dark Victory', as being featured in a movie exactly as it was portrayed in the comic. Only Selina attacking Falcone, and scarring his cheek. By the way, I think that scenario you just mapped out above could work exactly as you just described it for a second movie.

This could be the very last scene, but I assume fans would rather have the Batsignal unveiling at the very end instead of right before the Catwoman scene.
I'd like the costume to be somewhat similar to how it is in the comics now. It seems sufficiently catlike and is sexy as hell.

The Batsignal unveiling should be at the very end, as to say, we should close on that scene. However, Catwomen busting in on Falcone could still be featured, as the last scene featuring Falcone, and a set-up for Selina's character in the sequel. Also, I like the closer on Gordan, Dent, and The Batman.

My idea for the first time we see the Catwoman (still in the first movie), which is right after we see the Batman in action for the very first time:

*text*

Very nice.

I think she could figure into the organized crime plot that continues into the next movie. Falcone is squeezing the East End, and Catwoman is now targeting his businesses (any that have things that can be stolen, or at least wrecked), and she has a big bounty on her head. The Batman would figure out that those two things are related and will eventually figure out where Catwoman lives, and will eventually figure out who she is. They will help each other in some ways and they will also have physical fights, and of course a lot of flirting on the part of Catwoman and maybe a little bit from the Batman when he figures he can use it as a distraction technique. I want it made clear that whatever keeps the Batman from defeating Catwoman easily in a fight is not her level of skill. I'm sorry, but I can't accept that someone who hasn't even had any formal martial arts training and isn't a superhuman can hold her own against a guy who trained for years and years to be the absolute best and keeps the title through merit. It has to be because she fights dirty, or he genuinely doesn't want to hurt her, or something. In any case, I want some good fights, but I don't want a repeat of 'Batman Returns' where he has to resort to extreme measures like using corrosive acid on Catwoman because he was too stupid to defend himself properly in the first place.
The Batman will eventually attempt to make a "citizen's arrest" and hand her over to the cops, but whether she escapes because of her ingenuity or because the Batman lets her go (he may let her go and still let her think she got away on her own, though, just as an option), I don't know yet.

I imagine The Batman holding back a great deal whenever a conflict against Catwomen ensures, sometimes to do his very detriment, as while Bruce doesn't want to hurt Selina in the same way he sends the rest of Gothams criminals 'limping home with wet pants', it's difficult to quantify quite how much he needs to hold back. Since Selina is more than a match for any regular fighter, sometimes Batman lets too much of a guard down before getting injured by an over lethal crack of a whip, or something.
I agree that Batman should have a strained relationsip with Selina throughout the movie, your notes in that regard were practically fautless.

Don't worry, the Mafia/Catwoman stuff won't dominate the whole second film. We've got some funny, whacky stuff we need to spotlight as well. Let the crazy begin!


Comments?

Ah yes, a 'very black comedy' needs to come to Gotham, and I would quite like to hear your notes on the matter when you have the time.

 

[Herr Logan]

Well, what I had in mind was to focus first on the essential basics of her central character: the femme fatal cat -burglar, inspired in part by having witnessed Batman's antics, and with a penchant for seduction, cunning and deception in getting her job done. The way in which I envisioned any "feminist-driven motive characteristics! surfacing was when the Catwomen was to shift her focus from mere burglary, to attacking and defending what she considers to be her 'home-turf' (the East End, in this case). Once she began causing trouble for Falcone's men, we'd see Catwomen attack some Pimp's at street-level, disguised as a prostitute, with dellusions of grandeur in wanting to liberate Gotham in a similar way to the Batman. I'll gladly renounce the plot-points of Catwomen digressing her aims as to do with 'sexual-liberty and freedom' for the women of Gotham (in hindsight I do realise it was a contrived way to add more weight to her character) however I could imagine a scenario involving Catwomen attacking a Pimp-racket while disguised a 'call-girl' working in a movie.

Okay, that sounds good. I don't want her going undercover a lot, but that scenario is fine.

I like it . I wasn't advocating the 'Falcone/Selina' plot-point from 'Dark Victory', as being featured in a movie exactly as it was portrayed in the comic. Only Selina attacking Falcone, and scarring his cheek. By the way, I think that scenario you just mapped out above could work exactly as you just described it for a second movie.

Cool.

I also read that the relationship between Falcone and Selina is in dispute and not a solid fact. However, if 'Dark Victory' is canon, then she did at one time think she was his daughter. I heard there was a Catwoman mini-series or series which addressed this issue, but may not be canon.

The Batsignal unveiling should be at the very end, as to say, we should close on that scene. However, Catwomen busting in on Falcone could still be featured, as the last scene featuring Falcone, and a set-up for Selina's character in the sequel. Also, I like the closer on Gordan, Dent, and The Batman.

Agreed, and thanks.

I imagine The Batman holding back a great deal whenever a conflict against Catwomen ensures, sometimes to do his very detriment, as while Bruce doesn't want to hurt Selina in the same way he sends the rest of Gothams criminals 'limping home with wet pants', it's difficult to quantify quite how much he needs to hold back. Since Selina is more than a match for any regular fighter, sometimes Batman lets too much of a guard down before getting injured by an over lethal crack of a whip, or something.
I agree that Batman should have a strained relationsip with Selina throughout the movie, your notes in that regard were practically fautless.

"Practically" flawless?

Thanks.

I think Catwoman's one true advantage over the Batman should be her agility. The Batman is a top-rate gymnast, but even without the cape, he's much bulkier than Selina (6'2", 240 lbs and very broad across the torso) and with the cape, he sacrifices just a little bit of agility for the sake of the advantages it brings (protection, diversion, somewhat of a parachute effect while falling shorter distances, intimidation, tiny lead weights in the tips of the scallops as weapons, etc.). Selina can dodge, leap and sometimes attack faster. That doesn't make Batman an easy defeat by a long shot, though. While I know the Batman would hold back in a fight, that doesn't mean he can't disable her without hurting her too much, or even at all. He can fight defensively and restrain her without harming her.

About the whip thing-- Catwoman should only land one good crack at the Batman with the bullwhip. Once he's felt that, he ain't lettin' it happen again. Every other time she tries it, he dodges or blocks, and takes any chance to take it away from her or use it against her (I don't mean he actually whips her, I mean he yanks her off-balance or straight to him or whatever).

The Batman in these movies should be shown to adapt to most of the tactics that are successfully used against him. That doesn't mean he can always beat that enemy, though. Even the Penguin could still "get" the Batman by using his weaponry and his birds. The Batman approached unseen, burst in all at once and gassed the birds before Cobblepot even knew what happened. You can be damn sure that Cobblepot's offices in the Iceberg Lounge will have a decent security system and shatterproof windows with good locks. That won't keep the Batman from getting in, but it makes it take longer and less likely to be a complete surprise. How about a cage full of birds kept beneath the floor that will attack when the floor panel slides open? Did you see that coming, Batsy? Of course, the Batman has also prepared measures and maneuvers to deal with attack birds from any angle, so it's a toss-up on how that will turn out nonetheless. This is how we maintain unpredictablity (such as it is, as we know the Batman won't die and that he'll "win" in some way by the end of the movie, even if there are losses incurred in spite of his efforts).

If we play up the agility angle, throw in a little ingrained chivalry (thanks a lot, Alfred) and maybe just a little bit of clouded judgement, if you know what I mean, and we've got a decent fight between the Batman and Catwoman.

You will notice that when I post my outline of Bruce's past, it won't mention anything about girlfriends. While he may well have learned the pleasures of the flesh during his journey and then his as-yet brief time as Gotham's most eligible billionaire bachelor, Bruce has some territory yet to explore. When he's in what he now considers his "true skin" (the Bat-Suit, with his "empowerment" mask firmly in place) and essentially being what is now his true self, he doesn't keep this woman at arm's length as he would a woman dating Playboy Bruce. He's not worried that Catwoman will be scared if she learns Bruce's dark secret. She isn't interested in Bruce Wayne, she's interested in the Batman from the beginning (this sentence is both true and false, actually). I'll explain in a bit, but you probably already know what I'm going to say and have thought of it yourself.

I would have Bruce Wayne date Selina Kyle, and when he finds out, it makes it all the more tempting to give Catwoman a chance. He can't look past her criminal tendencies ultimately, but he doesn't condemn her outright or completely. The Batman has degrees of tolerance, not a black and white schema. The thing that keeps him from giving Catwoman a free pass is that she steals when she doesn't have to. Selina Kyle doesn't have a real job (she doesn't need one, due to her successful, high-stakes thieving, and indulges all kinds of expensive tastes on a daily basis), but with her cunning, if not her physical skills and beauty (he'd be thinking movie star or modeling career with that last one), she could make a decent living for herself. She steals for the thrill, despite the semi-Robin Hood act (I'd have her pour part of her stolen wealth into her community and select charities, which is actually a good way to have her meet Bruce Wayne), which disturbs the Bruce/Batman.

I haven't mapped out a real plot for this, but I figure this is a good way to explore areas of Bruce's own psychology that hadn't been addressed in the first movie (sexuality, whether Bruce can have a real girlfriend, moral ambiguity, two territorial vigilantes, etc.) and further develop those that had been explored (duality, can he be himself when he really only knows how to pretend to be normal?), but not in some sappy, tacked-on way. I would make a real effort to show what's inside Bruce Wayne's mind (mostly through dialogue with Alfred as well as monologues, and his behavior around Selina Kyle and Catwoman), without sacrificing the Batman. The fact is, more than 75% of the time where you see Bruce Wayne in the Batcave (where he is far more than he is in the Mansion when on his property), he will have his mask on, and almost always he'll be wearing the Batsuit (he might hold off on suiting up before he does his 1000 sit-ups, 1000 push-ups, etc., which will be referenced and glimpsed briefly in both movies... so you don't dare forget the main theme-- obsession!!). There will never be a time when Bruce is alone or only in the presence of Alfred where he isn't thinking about Batman business at least part of the time. In the scenes where he discusses the Selina/Catwoman dillemma with Alfred, whenever Alfred starts steering the conversation over to "normal" relationship patterns and feelings, Bruce will politely but unequivocally steer things back to the realm of duality and obsession. Bruce knows a hell of a lot about human psychology and sociology, which is why he can profile, fool and manipulate people better than any con artist or politician, but he usually can't make the emotional connection when he tries to engage in earnest with humans as Civilian Bruce.

He's not giving up the Batman, not even thinking about it. Not for a woman he's barely known for a few weeks, who he knows is a criminal. Besides, this one wouldn't dig him if he wasn't the Batman. Ah, but Selina seems mildly interested in Bruce Wayne when in civvies. Not nearly as interested as Catwoman is with the Batman, though. Bruce Wayne should act different around Selina when they're alone (or relatively alone, like in restaurants, in the car with Alfred driving, etc.) than he does with other people in public. When Bruce eases back the facade just a bit, a strong, smart, passionate man comes shining through, and that's what's attractive to Selina. The very fact that she seems him act one way in front of most people (flaky, shallow, much too easy-going for most people's tastes) and a different way with her is also part of the appeal for her, since she is exploring duality to a degree herself.

All of this should not overshadow the crime drama events of the movie (and Catwoman should be intwined in that as well), but the more I think about it, this could really be a meaningful plot through which to explore both the Batman and Selina. All those themes I described earlier, they don't have to be pop-psychology bull$hit that you'd read out of women's interest magazines; this doesn't have to be a ploy to get women to watch the movie. If this was done correctly, I'd be very entertained and interested, because I really like the idea of analyzing the Batman, as long as the cape and cowl never get marginalized and as long as the character himself doesn't give the audience the idea that Civilian Bruce is real and the Batman is his mask. Rachel Dawes, superfluous little twit that she was (that is to say, the important functions she served should have been served by others), at least got it right when she said, "No, this is your mask. The face the criminals now fear is your real face." Damn right!. Now go celebrate your deep insight by sitting the next 3 or 4 movies out, b1tch.

In any case, the Joker's story should take up roughly half the movie. I've got a long-winded post on him coming up, too.

 

[Herr Logan]

Ah yes, a 'very black comedy' needs to come to Gotham, and I would quite like to hear your notes on the matter when you have the time.)

I don't have many specific ideas on the Joker, other than recycling plots from the comics. The thing to do there is to choose the best parts and put them together in a good way without sacrificing any core element or style.
The things I'm adamant about:

The Joker will announce his intention to kill someone by midnight on TV, having somehow hijacked the signal. He'll do it several times, and once he's got the attention of Gotham City and the Batman (the worthiest challenge there is for a couple of reasons ... how do you stay one step ahead of the World's Greatest Detective? How do you drive a crazy man even crazier?)

He will not be some ultra-dark, horrifying serial killer who uses a knife to kill people in alleys at random, like all these idiots in the Batman movie forums keep suggesting. THE JOKER IS-- say it with me now-- NOT A SERIAL KILLER! These people suggesting this bull$hit don't know a damn thing about serial killers. They don't know how these people actually behave, and they don't know the difference between a serial killer and a mass murderer.
Here are some basic definitions, admitted only from Wikipedia (not a truly reliable source in general), but I can verify their validity from my rudimentary academic knowledge and personal morbid research. I don't feel like digging out my Criminology text book or one of my books written by John Douglas (founding member of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unity, the man basically institutionalized psychological profiling). Anyway, here we go:

a) A serial killer is someone who commits three or more murders over an extended period of time with cooling-off periods in between. In between their crimes, they appear to be quite normal, a state which Hervey Cleckley and Robert Hare call the "mask of sanity." There is frequently — but not always — a sexual element to the murders.
b) A mass murderer, on the other hand, is an individual who kills three or more people in a single event and in one location. The perpetrators sometimes commit suicide, meaning knowledge of their state of mind and what triggers their actions is often left to more speculation than fact. Mass murderers who are caught sometimes claim they cannot clearly remember the event.
c) A spree killer commits multiple murders in different locations over a period of time that may vary from a few hours to several days. Unlike serial killers, however, they do not revert to their normal behavior in between slayings.

Exam question: Which of the above best describes the Joker?

Time's up. The answer is C. If the Joker did fit one of those categories, it would be spree killer.
I doubted myself earlier when I first wrote "THE JOKER IS-- say it with me now-- NOT A SERIAL KILLER!," but I've since straightened that out in my head. In the beginning, in the comic issue 'Batman' #1, the Joker behaved in a way that was similar in some ways to a serial killer in that certain elements of the definition fit his M.O. The Joker used the same M.O. for the series of victims he killed (poison), and he left a signature with each (the smile). He killed at consistent intervals, although it's extremely rare to see a serial killer do his thing every day for several days as opposed to an interval of several days, weeks or months. Also, he announced his intentions and got off on the fact that the police couldn't do a damn thing to stop him the first several times. The Zodiac killer is the best example I can think of for this trait, but he was never this direct about it. The guy had some kind of cryptology training and made you decode the messages he sent to TV stations and so forth. He even picked out a favorite detective who was pursuing him, I think.
HUNTER RIDER: now would be a good time to speak the hell up in here, you silent, absentee bastard!
Verify my statements on Zodiac, if you please, as I'm still too lazy to look it up and it's been a long time since I read that book.

We all know that the Joker's methods have broadened over the years and his schemes don't have the intervals of a serial killer.
Here's another huge thing-- the Joker's crimes hardly ever have any sexual element to them. Don't even cite 'The Killing Joke' as an example, because in the cursory research I've done (in addition to getting what TPBs I think I'll like I just read various summaries and analyses of these characters, because I never collected Batman comics regularly before now and I don't seek out back issues) it seems to be the one time worth mentioning where he stripped a victim naked, and you people should all know that it was purely for James Gordon's "benefit." Alan Moore did his own thing and pushed the envelope a little bit, but I'm of the mind that the Joker is not a sexual predator (which means all of you should be, of course). Not every serial killer has a sexual element in their crimes.
In any case, I'm not writing a movie where the Joker is a God damn sex offender. He can be scary without the added "hardcore" content.

Speaking of modus operandi (M.O.) a signature, that's probably something precious few of those pseuo-fans who want the Joker to kill Rachel in 'Begins 2' have a damn clue about: the difference between them, and what the latter one means.
Granted, they are confusing terms to keep distinguished from each other, but I'm sickened by the sight of people who don't know jack sh1t about serial killers labeling the Joker and telling us he should be as "dark" as possible without the purple suit. I've got no problem with someone who doesn't know this stuff (unless it's their job to know it), but I can't tolerate these bland changes for the sake of so-called "realism" being suggested by people who don't know what a serial killer even means.

Sweet Crispy Jesus swinging from the chandalier on a stormy Monday evening!!
Wikipedia's entry on "serial killer" doesn't include the word "signature" or "modus operandi" on the page, anywhere!!

Like I said before-- not reliable! Okay, so I'll just lay it out from memory:

Modus Operandi means "mode of operation," which is how the act gets done.

Signature is what the killer "gets from it," psychologically speaking. If you're a hardcore profiler, you might even get some sense of why he did it the way he did. It's hard to explain, but things like staging (putting the body in a certain pose after they're dead) and mutilation are often signatures.

The Joker's M.O. in the beginning was using poison, specifically one that took 24 hours (if I remember correctly) to kill a person, which he administers the night before the victim actually dies.
His signature is the smile he leaves on the victims. I know the two are closely related, since the poison itself is what makes the facial muscles contort, but I think you can see what I'm getting out. The Joker likes to see a nice, big smile. Thus, he kills you with a drug that makes you smile even after you're dead. Perfectly logical.

I'll say right here and now: I am not a good student. I hate to study, I slack off all the time, I've relied on my officially diagnosed "high-superior" verbal intelligence to carry me through college, and it only goes so far. Thus, I am not writing those people off because they didn't do a $hit-load of research before thinking about what might be cool in a Batman movie. However, I do expect those people to understand what a real serial killer is before they start shouting out their preference for that they think (and I use the term loosely) is a "real" serial killer, especially since they're suggesting the sacrificing of everything that is unique and classic about the Joker.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, let's all swear on our children's inheritance that we believe the Joker is a Spree Killer. We could even stretch that to Mass Spree Killer, since if that were a real label, that would probably be more accurate.

I think that this very confusion should be discussed in the movie, between the Batman and Gordon, and the Batman and Alfred. Not an argument, but exposition that emphasises that the Joker isn't some half-assed, sensationalized attempt by the storyteller to give the audience a serial killer. We've met sociopaths in the first movie (Penguin, Falcone & family, Loeb and a good chunk of the GCPD, muggers, etc.), one of those being what could be described as a "supervillain," but now we meet a psychotic sociopath (that last word sometimes interchangable with "psychopath").

The Batman should explain that he changed tactics very easily and quickly, (moved from the TV threats and one-at-a-time poisoning to something more spectacular), and doesn't fit any profile. The Batman will have to start profiling him and try to figure out a pattern.

I'd have Alfred use the term "supervillain" to describe the Joker while in the Cave, in the context of saying he's the first one. The Batman will disagree. Alfred will mockingly ask if he's talking about Cobblepot, and the Batman will say--

Batman: "Tell you what, Alfred; why don't you put on a spare uniform, break into Cobblepot's personal office at the Iceberg Lounge and wait for him? See what happens."

Alfred: "Ah, yes, the semi-automatic parasols and trained attack birds. Quite the eccentric."

Batman (swiveling his chair around to stare at Alfred): "You have a very broad definition of the word "eccentric".

Alfred: "When one lives in an atmosphere of madness, one tends to acclimate."

Batman: "I wonder how quickly a new butler would 'acclimate.'" (swivels back to face the computer)

Alfred: "I'll prepare the want ad, sir." Alfred smiles and heads back up to the Manor.

Batman: "You do that." (also cracks a smile while getting back to his work)​

Bruce often makes comments like that, and they are always taken in stride by Alfred. I like this dynamic from the comics, and I'm damn well using it.

It goes without saying that in any movie I would take part in creating, the Joker will not kill the woman the Batman loves, because there is no such person (I don't know if Catwoman really counts as "loved", and I'm not having her killed off by the Joker regardless), and there's absolutely no reason to make the emnity between the Batman and the Joker "personal," as that demeans the Batman as a character and dumbs down the story in general.

The Batman hates the Joker because the Joker is evil and hurts people for his own amusement and greed. That's all there is to it, at least on an emotional level. There's not much that's interesting about how the Batman feels toward the Joker. If you saw the first movie, you damn well know why he feels that way and how he's prepared to deal with it. In the second movie, the Batman shows outrage and puzzlement, as the Joker is the first of his kind the Batman has come across and this one is particularly unpredictable.

The way the Joker feels toward the Batman is pretty interesting in the comics. Unfortunately I'm not really sure how deeply into the whole "gotta do it for Batman, 'cause nobody can chase me like he can" or "I want attention from Batman, my stern father figure of choice" dynamics the second movie can delve, since those themes have developed over many years, and by the very nature of those behavior patterns they would need several years to become identifiable patterns. I would like this movie to cover the span of several months, just like the first one did. Even so, the fact that the Joker goes to such lengths to get the Batman's attention really only works if he's been incarcerated a couple of times. Then again, if he starts making messages directed at the Batman in part when he announces new threats (in the mid-to-late part of the film), then it should be obvious and reasonable.

One thing I always wanted to see the Batman do is somehow figure out how to predict what exactly the Joker would think was the funniest thing to do in a particular scenario and steer him to react in such a way that he'd be easier to handle. I don't know if this is possible, and it's probably not appropriate in a movie where the Joker is relatively new threat.

Okay, as you've already gathered, the Joker will wear his traditional costume-- purple suit, purple hat, purple trenchcoat. He only wears the coat when he's making a grand entrance or traveling, though.
He'll have the acid-squirting lapel flower, and whatever wacky clown-related paraphenalia he can turn into deadly weapons. I can see him squirting his lapel flower at the Batman, the Batman dodges and moves out of range, the Joker picks up a seltzer-bottle (you know, the thing people think are funny in cartoons) that also sprays acid but much farther.

I don't know what should be done about his origin. I know he's not going to have a name, and he's not going to die in the movie. Either he goes to Arkham Asylum at the end (which I would prefer) or he gets in some deadly situation where he might have died, but there's no body and the Batman doesn't believe he's dead until he sees a body.


Comments!!

 

[Zev]

I think there was also a bit where Joker raped Anarky's mother, thus producing Anarky, but it's a fairly obscure thing so I can see how it wouldn't be applicable.

I'll admit, I'd rather not see Joker as a sexual predator because it would make Batman seem even more impotent ("I know, I know, Jim, he crippled and raped your daughter, murdered your wife, and kidnapped hundreds of innocent babies with the intention of blowing them up... but KILLING IS ALWAYS WRONG! ALWAYS WRONG! LALALALA NOT LISTENING!"). Plus, I'm tired of rape in comics, especially retconned ones, and making Oracle, perhaps one of the most popular female characters in comics, a rape victim would be a slap in the face to good taste, women readers, and fans in general. Not that I don't think it's likely in this climate. Luckily she's being written by Gail Simone, who I think is above those kind of monkey shines.

I, for one, think Joker should start off with the TAS route. Jokerfish start showing up in all the harbors, Joker demands to be given royalties... then he starts killing people at midnight when his demands aren't met. The ludricious quickly becomes deadly serious as the inevitable escalation occurs, with him eventually moving up to mass genocide (like Joker hitting an entire grade school with laughing gas unless Batman can stop him).

Or, going the opposite route down giganticism road, having him pull a Killing Joke on Harvey Dent and torturing him into bringing the Two-Face persona to light (or at least planting the seeds for it).

I'd also kinda like for Batman's pathological dislike of guns to be brought up. Not in a "Bowling For Columbine" way with him rattling off statistics on gun control, but just with him having a marked dislike for them. How cool would it be for Batman to go interrogate a gang, some bangers to pull out guns (while their leader shouts "No wait!"), and then disappear into the shadows as they open fire. As the gang sees they haven't hit anything, the leader whimpers "Bullets make him angry." A little melodramatic, perhaps, but still...

Also, I don't know if this is strictly applicable here, but I have a proposal for an X-Men comic series I'd like to share. It gets away from this 198 nonsense and Emma/Scott, so it kinda fits in to the point of the thread, but your call Herr.

 

[Herr Logan]

I think there was also a bit where Joker raped Anarky's mother, thus producing Anarky, but it's a fairly obscure thing so I can see how it wouldn't be applicable.

I'll admit, I'd rather not see Joker as a sexual predator because it would make Batman seem even more impotent ("I know, I know, Jim, he crippled and raped your daughter, murdered your wife, and kidnapped hundreds of innocent babies with the intention of blowing them up... but KILLING IS ALWAYS WRONG! ALWAYS WRONG! LALALALA NOT LISTENING!"). Plus, I'm tired of rape in comics, especially retconned ones, and making Oracle, perhaps one of the most popular female characters in comics, a rape victim would be a slap in the face to good taste, women readers, and fans in general. Not that I don't think it's likely in this climate. Luckily she's being written by Gail Simone, who I think is above those kind of monkey shines.

For the love of God, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that the Joker raped Barbara! There just isn't! If anyone thinks he did that, they were merely filling in the blanks, because Alan Moore left it to our twisted imaginations. Moore hasn't been shy about rape in the past, so if he didn't give solid confirmation, then it simply didn't happen. This is one case where I believe in the whole "innocent until proven guilty" for a known felon, because this would be an aberration in his behavior patterns. Yes, I know he's supposed to be unpredictable, but the things he does, he tends to do them over and over again, in undecernable patterns. Again, if Moore and whoever did the art for that comic didn't show proof of rape, then it didn't happen. There are only so many villains I can handle being rapists and still enjoy reading about them. Joker isn't on the list.

I, for one, think Joker should start off with the TAS route. Jokerfish start showing up in all the harbors, Joker demands to be given royalties... then he starts killing people at midnight when his demands aren't met. The ludricious quickly becomes deadly serious as the inevitable escalation occurs, with him eventually moving up to mass genocide (like Joker hitting an entire grade school with laughing gas unless Batman can stop him).

I'm iffy on that. I love the 'Laughing Fish' story but I'm not sure it's right for his big entrance. The reason it's so great is that when you see that for the first time, already knowing who the Joker is and what he's all about, you look at the fish and think "Well of course he'd pull something like this! Love that Joker!"

If he had this whole movie to himself, I'd put his first story in towards the beginning and move onto the Jokerfish thing later in the film. However, I'm really into this Catwoman idea now and think it could work. Both of those characters showed up in the same year, so it's fitting they share a movie.
If there were another movie that could be at least half devoted to the Joker, I'd open up with the fish. Anyway, it's an option to consider.

Or, going the opposite route down giganticism road, having him pull a Killing Joke on Harvey Dent and torturing him into bringing the Two-Face persona to light (or at least planting the seeds for it).

Joker can have a run-in with Dent if that fits into a plot well, but I damn sure do not want the Joker to be in any way responsible for the creation of Two-Face. Not the acid, not the psychological scars, nothing. His father is the source of everything beneath the surface, although he seems to have a handle on it. Sal Maroni, a Mafia boss who promised to cooperate and help the D.A. in a case against Falcone, will throw the acid on Dent in the middle of open court. Maroni got had the acid because a plant in the D.A.'s office snuck it in for him. The system betrayed him, in a couple of ways, and the real damage was done before Harvey even heard of the Joker or Maroni. I'm okay with certain tie-ins for characters who didn't have much to do with each other in the comics, but I'm not doing that here. Perhaps near the end of the movie, Dent will put Maroni on the stand, leading up to his scarring, while the Joker is being sentenced down the hall. The verdict was guilty by reason of insanity, and the sentence is... I don't know how insanity sentences work... for now let's just say he's going to get psychiatric help and he ain't gettin' out of Arkham Asylum any time soon. Or at least that's the plan...

I see it happening like this: Maroni throws acid in Dent's face-- only getting half because Harvey tries to block it with a folder, basically like in 'Batman Forever'-- right as the Joker is being rolled down the hall, in a straightjacket on a handtruck (Hannibal Lecter style). When Dent gets hit, they open the doors to allow more guards to keep things under control. Maroni gloats and rants before being violently wrestled to the floor by a guard. Harvey is on the floor, holding his face (with a garment of some kind wrapped around his hand, so as not to chew that up as well) and screaming. The guards transporting the Joker stop in front of the courtroom to see what's going on. The Joker sees Dent screaming in agony and Maroni ranting as he's put in bracelets and held on the ground by the bailiffs, and he starts laughing uncontrollably before they move him away. I think if this was filmed well (and fleshed out, of course), this could be a truly haunting scene.

I'd also kinda like for Batman's pathological dislike of guns to be brought up. Not in a "Bowling For Columbine" way with him rattling off statistics on gun control, but just with him having a marked dislike for them. How cool would it be for Batman to go interrogate a gang, some bangers to pull out guns (while their leader shouts "No wait!"), and then disappear into the shadows as they open fire. As the gang sees they haven't hit anything, the leader whimpers "Bullets make him angry." A little melodramatic, perhaps, but still...

I'm not sure if gangs should know that about him. They could use it to his advantage. I see where you're coming from, and I agree that would be cool. I don't want strangers to know his psychopathology (meaning what's wrong with him, not that he doesn't have a conscience), though. You have a mind for getting the message of fear across. I just don't think it works on this character.

Also, I don't know if this is strictly applicable here, but I have a proposal for an X-Men comic series I'd like to share. It gets away from this 198 nonsense and Emma/Scott, so it kinda fits in to the point of the thread, but your call Herr.

Go for it. This thread is for all comic book properties, not just the one I personally have been obsessing over at a given time.

 

[Zev]

For the love of God, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the idea that the Joker raped Barbara! There just isn't! If anyone thinks he did that, they were merely filling in the blanks, because Alan Moore left it to our twisted imaginations. Moore hasn't been shy about rape in the past, so if he didn't give solid confirmation, then it simply didn't happen. This is one case where I believe in the whole "innocent until proven guilty" for a known felon, because this would be an aberration in his behavior patterns. Yes, I know he's supposed to be unpredictable, but the things he does, he tends to do them over and over again, in undecernable patterns. Again, if Moore and whoever did the art for that comic didn't show proof of rape, then it didn't happen. There are only so many villains I can handle being rapists and still enjoy reading about them. Joker isn't on the list.

Chill, I was agreeing with you.

Joker can have a run-in with Dent if that fits into a plot well, but I damn sure do not want the Joker to be in any way responsible for the creation of Two-Face. Not the acid, not the psychological scars, nothing. His father is the source of everything beneath the surface, although he seems to have a handle on it. Sal Maroni, a Mafia boss who promised to cooperate and help the D.A. in a case against Falcone, will throw the acid on Dent in the middle of open court. Maroni got had the acid because a plant in the D.A.'s office snuck it in for him. The system betrayed him, in a couple of ways, and the real damage was done before Harvey even heard of the Joker or Maroni. I'm okay with certain tie-ins for characters who didn't have much to do with each other in the comics, but I'm not doing that here. Perhaps near the end of the movie, Dent will put Maroni on the stand, leading up to his scarring, while the Joker is being sentenced down the hall. The verdict was guilty by reason of insanity, and the sentence is... I don't know how insanity sentences work... for now let's just say he's going to get psychiatric help and he ain't gettin' out of Arkham Asylum any time soon. Or at least that's the plan...

Well, I'd want to keep the stuff with his father, but see the Joker encounter as bringing it to the surface (how much of a geek-out would it be for him to insist that he's fine... then start flipping that damn silver dollar his pop gave to him). It's always handy to have a way to heighten the stakes or make it personal and Joker gunning for either Gordon or Dent works (as Joker going after anyone in BRUCE WAYNE's personal life would be either too much of a coincidence or result from Joker learning Batman's identity).

I'm not sure if gangs should know that about him. They could use it to his advantage. I see where you're coming from, and I agree that would be cool. I don't want strangers to know his psychopathology (meaning what's wrong with him, not that he doesn't have a conscience), though. You have a mind for getting the message of fear across. I just don't think it works on this character.

It's not that they know he's afraid of guns, they just know he particularly doesn't like guns. I think there were a few issues of the Batman Adventures comics where he got in a few good quips to that effect. I imagine you could do the same thing with a pair of muggers about to rob a couple when they see the couple has a kid. Then they back off, saying "HE doesn't like it when kids get involved..."

Moments later, Batman ambushes them. "You're right. I don't. That's why I'm going to go easy on you." Commence beatdown. "I thought you said you were going to go easy on us!"

"I was going easy on you."

 

[Herr Logan]

Chill, I was agreeing with you.

Sorry.

Well, I'd want to keep the stuff with his father, but see the Joker encounter as bringing it to the surface (how much of a geek-out would it be for him to insist that he's fine... then start flipping that damn silver dollar his pop gave to him). It's always handy to have a way to heighten the stakes or make it personal and Joker gunning for either Gordon or Dent works (as Joker going after anyone in BRUCE WAYNE's personal life would be either too much of a coincidence or result from Joker learning Batman's identity).

I don't want to use the Joker as a vehicle for "making it personal," unless that easily and tastefully fits in with another plot point.

What I would do is this:

Have the Joker hold Dent hostage or somehow keep him nearby and helpless for a period of time, possibly trying to draw the Batman out specifically. Maybe he'll rant to his captive audience a bit about chaos (littered with dark humor, as all of Joker's dialogue should be) and go on about how the justice system is one of the funniest jokes he's ever heard. It all boils down to the fact that Dent's life is a joke; he dedicated a good part of his life to a mindless, soulless system that gets nothing done in the end. "At least when the Batman goes a-hunting for some eeeevildoers to thrash and ultimately changes nothing, he has some flair to him."
The Joker riles Harvey to the point that Harvey snaps and attacks the Joker, overpowering him physically (the Joker is very strong because he's crazy, but Harvey is bigger and well built, thus he is stronger than the Joker when he himself is crazy... Two-Face is gonna be one tough sum'b1tch to fight) and attempting to beat the living $hit out of him. The Batman has snuck in by this point and intervenes when the Joker grabs a gun and feels he needs to shoot Dent just to survive (he wasn't necessarily going to kill Dent, unless that was the funniest thing he could do at the moment). The Joker escapes somehow (probably planted a bomb or something... "Disarm the bomb or chase the villain-- decide!").
After this incident, Harvey goes to see a psychologist. I can't get into details now, but it's here that we get the real story on his father and childhood and the coin (that we've seen him flip at various times already) and so forth.

The Joker will be taken down by the Batman toward the end of the movie, arrested and awaiting trial. Dent continues his case against Falcone (who the Batman, Gordon and Dent finally got enough evidence on to bring it to court). It culminates with the scene I mentioned earlier.

It's not that they know he's afraid of guns, they just know he particularly doesn't like guns. I think there were a few issues of the Batman Adventures comics where he got in a few good quips to that effect. I imagine you could do the same thing with a pair of muggers about to rob a couple when they see the couple has a kid. Then they back off, saying "HE doesn't like it when kids get involved..."

Moments later, Batman ambushes them. "You're right. I don't. That's why I'm going to go easy on you." Commence beatdown. "I thought you said you were going to go easy on us!"

"I was going easy on you."

I'll put this on the "keep thinking about it" pile. I'm too tired to assess the options right now.

Thanks for posting Zev.

 

[Zaphod]

Nice comments on Selina/Catwomen's role, Herr . Based upon what you've just described, I can definately see her working in a sequel, after she's been briefly established in the first movie.

I think Catwoman's one true advantage over the Batman should be her agility. The Batman is a top-rate gymnast, but even without the cape, he's much bulkier than Selina (6'2", 240 lbs and very broad across the torso) and with the cape, he sacrifices just a little bit of agility for the sake of the advantages it brings (protection, diversion, somewhat of a parachute effect while falling shorter distances, intimidation, tiny lead weights in the tips of the scallops as weapons, etc.). Selina can dodge, leap and sometimes attack faster. That doesn't make Batman an easy defeat by a long shot, though. While I know the Batman would hold back in a fight, that doesn't mean he can't disable her without hurting her too much, or even at all. He can fight defensively and restrain her without harming her.

Of course. Catwomen, while nowhere near as strong as the Batman, is more than a match in terms of her speed, stamina and the fluidity of her strikes. The advantage that the Catwomen has over Batman should also lie in the fact that she isn't afraid, intimidated or frightenend of him like the gangs, crime-bosse's and GCPD are. Heck, the very reason she became Catwomen and adopted a vigilante approach was because she had been inspired to do so out of admiring the Batman in action, so it stands to reason that Selina wont be terrified of her idol as the regular-criminal's are of the Bat. This isn't to say that she wont be weary of Batman, she'll know what he's capable of, and she be naturally prepared for any encounter she may make with him, but Batman's intimiditation tactics wont be what saves him on these occasions. The fact that he won't strike out at her as he normally would, would also be highlighted.

About the whip thing-- Catwoman should only land one good crack at the Batman with the bullwhip. Once he's felt that, he ain't lettin' it happen again. Every other time she tries it, he dodges or blocks, and takes any chance to take it away from her or use it against her (I don't mean he actually whips her, I mean he yanks her off-balance or straight to him or whatever).

Nice . While where on the subject, with the exception of the whip, are there a list of tools and accesories that Catwomen would keep about her specifically, for use in battle? Or those needed for bugularies?

The Batman in these movies should be shown to adapt to most of the tactics that are successfully used against him. That doesn't mean he can always beat that enemy, though. Even the Penguin could still "get" the Batman by using his weaponry and his birds. The Batman approached unseen, burst in all at once and gassed the birds before Cobblepot even knew what happened. You can be damn sure that Cobblepot's offices in the Iceberg Lounge will have a decent security system and shatterproof windows with good locks. That won't keep the Batman from getting in, but it makes it take longer and less likely to be a complete surprise. How about a cage full of birds kept beneath the floor that will attack when the floor panel slides open? Did you see that coming, Batsy? Of course, the Batman has also prepared measures and maneuvers to deal with attack birds from any angle, so it's a toss-up on how that will turn out nonetheless. This is how we maintain unpredictablity (such as it is, as we know the Batman won't die and that he'll "win" in some way by the end of the movie, even if there are losses incurred in spite of his efforts).

I had an idea for something similar myself. Inspired by Bob Hoskin's character in Unleashed!. In that movie, his character would keep his prized fighter in solitary beneath a steel railing floor, which concealed a prision underneath. If you've seen that movie, keep it in mind for this next idea. How about, as the Batman approaches Cobblepot's offices in the Iceberg Lounge, moving through one of the corridors in the lower-levels, the steel-railing floor gives way (I imagine Cobblepots offices would be a contrast to the expense of the Lounge itself, given his pretense of 'gentlemenly', hence the steel floors), and Batman falls through, lands below, inside a small trap-prision, looking up at the gaps in the floor through which he's fallen. He's trapped, and then he begins to hear oncoming footsteps above. As they come closer, The Penguin reveals himself, and not soon after, an army of birds are released into the cramped and tiny prision below, swarming all over the Batman. Know what happens to birds, or any winged creature in tiny spaces? The panic of having so many birds chaotically flap around you in a tiny, dark place, is something I would love to see Penguin use to his advantage. To the Batman, it's just a setback of course, but it could least by Cobbelpot sometime while he escapes. Whether or not that would fit into this particular scenario, I'm not sure, since I would also want to show the Cobblepot and Batman chase, involving the parrasell umbrella, aswell as a well-planed infiltration of The Iceberg Lounge. I could imagine Cobblepot using the same means as a way to punish and torture insolent minions though, if in some way it doesn't work in conjunction with the Batman himself.

I would have Bruce Wayne date Selina Kyle, and when he finds out, it makes it all the more tempting to give Catwoman a chance. He can't look past her criminal tendencies ultimately, but he doesn't condemn her outright or completely. The Batman has degrees of tolerance, not a black and white schema. The thing that keeps him from giving Catwoman a free pass is that she steals when she doesn't have to. Selina Kyle doesn't have a real job (she doesn't need one, due to her successful, high-stakes thieving, and indulges all kinds of expensive tastes on a daily basis), but with her cunning, if not her physical skills and beauty (he'd be thinking movie star or modeling career with that last one), she could make a decent living for herself. She steals for the thrill, despite the semi-Robin Hood act (I'd have her pour part of her stolen wealth into her community and select charities, which is actually a good way to have her meet Bruce Wayne), which disturbs the Bruce/Batman.

Nice idea's indeed, Herr . I'll post my ideas on Selina and Bruce a bit later, once there all clear in my head.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Great ideas guys,keep it up

 

[Zaphod]

*Sorry, double post*

 

[Zaphod]

Ok, Herr, I have some ideas about Catwomen in a second movie, that I'd like to share with you.

One of the key aspects of Selina's personality that Bruce finds fascinating, is the fact that she is so unlike any other women that the millionaire-playboy persona of Bruce has ever experienced before. Now, what exactly this means, has to be made clear. For one thing, Bruce is not distracted by seduction, no matter how able to seductress, so having Bruce drawn to Selina in this fashion isn't applicable. Since Bruce is very much the dedicated crime-fighter, this wouldn't be the reason Bruce changes behavour in the presence of Selina. Bruce would start dating Selina, after he meets her at a charity auction. I presume your not against Bruce using women as a further compliment to strengthening the decadent-playboy persona in the eyes of those who he want's to keep ignorant to his "true self". By using, I dont meant Bruce is some Bond type who gets what he wants and gets out for only his own sake, but the type of women he dates in this matter, are al otherwise only interested in him for his wealth, parties, high-rise living, and handsome looks. In this case, Bruce wouldn't worry about using such flings as a way to further his Bruce Wayne demeanour, since the women in question wouldn't be getting dangerously close anyway. So, he approaches Selina in this fashion (or she approaches him, or Alfred introduces them), at a charity auction, and after they have been out once, Bruce learns that Selina isn't what he expected at all.
For one thing, she lives on the East Side in a very fashionable, glamorous and privileged apartment above tha part of the city. To Bruce's eyes, she is seemingly much like his own public image, in the respect that she has inherited wealth and uses it to sit-back and take an easy stride with life, donating money to charities as a way pay something back. Curiously however, to Bruce, she is intelligent, and has a fiesty personality that is always willing to challenge Bruce's opinion on matters which, many of the supermodels Bruce Wayne dated before, never did, or had any interest in doing. This is the aspect of Selina's personality that would attract Bruce to her. She would be seductive, but the effect this has on Bruce wouldn't be nearly as much as if some other cookie-clutter director was to take the easy character-dynamic. Bruce is the Batman. The Batman doesn't play. He isn't distracted. That, would still be at the heart of the character.

I had one idea, that Selina's apartment in the East Side had previously belonged to Falcone, and that in the aftermath of the first movie, with Falcone losing many of his operations and privileges, it was being fenced to her by Cobblepot, through indirect channels. This is unbeknown to Selina, who would think she bought the place using the wealth accumalated from the many stolen jewel's she continues to make profit on, although she had bought it through less than legite circumstances (using the climate of Falcone's loss of operation's, and the financhial and political vaccum that that created in Gotham's underworld, as a distraction to aquire the place through less than legal means). Somehow, through detective work, Bruce would discover this, and make it part of the reason that Batman goes after Cobblepot again, for a third time.

Thoughts?

 

[Zev]

Alright, let's just say we're setting this X-book six months from Now. Jean Gray has come back, the government is cracking down on mutants big-time ("interspecies" marriage or marriage between a mutant and a human is illegal. Hundreds of mutants are being thrown into internment camps. Sentinels are being built), and that whole 198 thing has been reversed, so we're back to somewhere roughly equivalent to Grant Morrison's New X-Men. Mutants are simultaneously cool, counterculture, the largest terrorist threat in the world (AIM has resurfaced as a pro-mutant terror group), and a minority.

Pretty much every X-Man is convinced that a war is coming and only Xavier and a select few of his followers still believe in the dream (let's say the original guys and some of Claremont's team). So why are they sticking with him? Well... because they're X-Men. But still, the situation is rife with tensions and one or two of the more amoral X-Men are all but declaring their allegiance to Magneto (who's not a supervillain again, but more of a "loyal opposition" to Xavier. His trouble-causing days are over and he wants to help, but he hasn't quite come around to X's point of view).

We open on the X-Men (ALL of them) in the new X-Compound. An X-Corps facility built in international waters off the coast of the United States, somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico. "I miss the mansion," Jubilee laments.

Wolverine: Just be glad that we got out of there before they made it illegal for mutants to own property.

Colossus: I hear it's already illegal for our kind to vote.

Cyclops: Just rumors. It's not too late to turn this around.

Wolverine: Think the Jews said that right before the Holocaust?

Cyclops: Rhetoric like that isn't doing anyone any good. We've got to get out of this "us versus them" thinking if we're going to survive.

Wolverine: The last time we tried to get out of us versus them, your wife died... again.

Cyclops: Was that before or after you threw a hissyfit and turned rogue for the five millionth time?

They reach the Danger Room. Holographics. Professor X's giant holographic head appears, transmitting from inside Cerebro. The new climate requires a more subtle touch. The days of a full-court press for every situation is over. Now the key is reducing the "mutant footprint." Teams will be three or less, no more. Larger teams will only be sent with special authorization.

The Danger Room explodes. Everyone hates the idea until Xavier explains himself. They're going to blend in. Dress in normal clothes (again, think Morrision's New X-Men) until push comes to shove... then they go into shock and awe mode (now think Whedon's Astonishing). The key is defusing situations before they get to shock and awe level. The X-Men are no longer a superhero team, they're more like the NAACP with their underwear on the outside, except not evil. (Kidding!) (mostly)

Teams will be paired up based on how their abilities and expertise compliment each other (think Global Frequency or JLU). In meta terms, where it creates banter, tension, unresolved sexual tension, or is just plain fun. Think of this series as several parallel old-time movie serials/buddy movies running together. Just like in, say, 24, we'll follow one team doing something, come to a cliffhanger, switch to another team, and so on and so forth.

Nightcrawler and Beast will investigate an Alabama faith healer who preaches tolerance towards mutants. With Reverend Stryker wannabes dominating the airwaves, getting mutants to be seen as people rather than abominations is a top priority.

Iceman and Northstar will rescue a kidnapped mutant child in Italy. Human-supremacist terrorists are planning to execute her on a live webcast.

And Phoenix and Cyclops are to... investigate a power fluctuation reading in Hawaii.

Only Nightcrawler and Beast are cool with their assignments (Nightcrawler: Ah, the fuzzy dudes get a chance to strut their stuff!). Iceman wants to know if this is some sort of "very special episode of" attempt to make him get over his "non-existent" homophobia, which isn't necessary anyway, because he saw Crash and it's kinda the same thing, right? And Cyclops wants to know why two senior X-Men are being assigned to a minor incident any rookie could handle.

Xavier: I have my reasons.

Just a note. My Xavier is kinda like House merged with Webster from The Inside. He's an omnipotent mentor guy who has two motives: The mutant greater good and teaching his students how to be the new generation of humanity. When those two come into conflict, it's a toss-up which will prove more important to him. Put bluntly, he can be a real bastard when he feels it's necessary and he will go to cruel, almost degrading lengths to make sure everyone on his team can perform without conflict because someday the fate of the world may rest on Wolverine and Cyclops being able to get along and he doesn't want that screwed up.

They go.

Nightcrawler and Beast arrive. Nightcrawler is incredulous as to how Beast can be an atheist after all he's seen.

Nightcrawler: Where you out to lunch when demons from H-E-double-hockey-stick invaded Manhattan?

Beast: Were you out to lunch when I turned into Leo the Lion?

Quell surprise! The faith healer is a mutant... and he actually can heal people. This just intensifies the debate.

Beast: I thought you said you healed people through the power of faith. Yet if it's your mutant power...

Preacher: And who do you think gave me this power? By the way, I hope I'm not offending you or anything, but I can't help but notice that you're both blue and... furry. Are you brothers?

Beast: No.

Nightcrawler: Well, in the way that black people are brothers, ja.

Beast: Why couldn't I have gotten the Hawaii assignment, why oh why? I bet Scott and Jean are having "fun."


Meanwhile, Jean and Scott fly to Hawaii. Things are tense.

Jean: So, wanna talk about your relationship with Emma?

Scott: So, wanna talk about your relationship with Logan?

A few panels of silence.

Jean: So, wanna talk about your relationship with Logan?

Scott: What?

Jean: Just kidding.

And that cues another ironic segue to...


Northstar and Iceman searching for clues. And having banter.

Northstar: Are you worried that I'm going to make a pass at you? Because I'm not. You've made it quite clear you wouldn't welcome such attention.

Iceman: Jean-Paul, the closest I've ever come to being attracted to you was when Jean-Marie stopped by.

Northstar: Hey, that's my sister!

Iceman: I'm glad she ain't mine. Hoo-boy!

Northstar: So how does this work, anyway? You're allowed to talk about T&A as much as you want, but as soon as I talk about what I find attractive in a man, you get uncomfortable?

Iceman: Oh, I can take it if you can.

Northstar: Okay. (faux-polite) My, Bobby, your buttocks are looking particularly well-defined this morning. Have you been working out?

Iceman: Why yes Jean-Paul, I have. Thank you for noticing. I like your cologne...

That's when they find that a Little Old Lady has overheard their every word.

Little Old Lady: You two need to find Jesus.


Another ironic (and I realize these segues are being ironic in a very Alanis Morrissette way, but work with me here) segue takes us back to Alabama. Nightcrawler is having a great time finally being able to talk with a fellow mutant of the faith when Beast walks out. Nightcrawler walks after him.

Nightcrawler: You think I'm backwards, don't I?

Beast: What?

Nightcrawler: You think I'm some sort of buck-toothed redneck because I still believe in God and the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark when we're standing here, the new form of evolution. I mean, how can I not see it, right?

Beast: Yeah, I actually kinda am wondering. Operation Zero Tolerance. The Mutant Massacre. Genosha, for pity's sake! After all they've done to us, how can you still believe there's still someone up there looking out for us?

Nightcrawler: Faith.

Beast: Well, excuse me if I'm running a little low.

Nightcrawler: Then what do you have faith in? Faith that we're going to be accepted one day? Faith that things will get better? Tell me, Beast. Tell me what you have faith in.

Beast: ...I don't know.

Nightcrawler: Then I think you know why the Professor sent you here.

Beast: This the part where I see the light?

Nightcrawler: No. This is the part where you go looking for it.

Beast gestures to the church.

Beast: I'm telling you right now, I won't find it in there.

Nightcrawler: Just so long as you find it.


That bit of morale boosted, we cut to Hawaii. Jean and Scott have landed and are climbing a mountain. The atmosphere is romantic but neither of them notice it.

Jean: You do seem to have a certain tendency.

Scott: And what would that be?

Jean: Whenever you're alone, you jump right into bed with the nearest willing female. Madeline Pryor, Psylocke...

Scott: I was mind-whammied.

Jean: And you left Madeline, your wife and her child, for me...

Scott: You complaining about that? Once again for the hard of hearing, I was mind-whammied.

Jean: Really? How much of that was telepathy... and how much is just denial on your part?

Scott: Do you not want this relationship to work? You want to talk about Emma? I was doing just fine with her until you came back. The only reason we're together right now is I felt a sense of obligation.

Jean: The only reason you were together in the first place is because she wanted to get at me.

Scott: Oh, it's always about YOU, isn't it? The almighty goddamn Phoenix. Even when she's dead, it's only a matter of time before she comes back. I'M THE TEAM LEADER! And I'm your husband. I think that entitles me to some respect. And just for the slow in the audnece, respect would entail showing a little sensitivity about the times I got raped because apparently I'm catnip to psychics.

Jean: ...I just got it. This whole mission is the Professor's attempt to get us to fall back in love with each other.

Scott: I'm going to kill him.

Jean: You can't. He's not Onslaught anymore.

Scott: Let's just say he is. They'll have to believe the two of us.

Jean: After all, I'm the goddamn Phoenix and you're the team leader.

They share a small, hard-won smile.

Then they get rocked by a psychic attack. That minor power fluctuation Cerebro detected isn't so minor anymore. MADELINE PRYOR walks up to them, holding Cable in her arms like a baby.

Madeline: Hey hubby. This is the part where you say "Honey, I'm home."

CLIFFHANGER!


Northstar and Iceman have tracked the terrorists to their hide-out.

Northstar: I'll grab the girl, you put the human-supremacists on ice.

Iceman: Hey, low temperature jokes are my gig.

They kick down the door, only to see that the mutant girl is wearing the uniform of the human-supremacists. She points at our heroes and her arms cackle with power.

Mutant Girl: Death to mutants!

CLIFFHANGER!


In Alabama, more human-supremacists, wearing the same uniforms as the terrorists in Italy, bust into the church. They far outnumber Beast and Nightcrawler.

Terrorist: We only want the preacher-man. Our fight's not with you, mutants... not yet.

Nightcrawler: By "yet," you meant right... about... now, right?

They leap into action.

CLIFFHANGER!


So, whaddya think?


P.S. One last note: I'd like to get away from the "mutant as Jew/African-American/homosexual" paradigm which has, let's be frank, been done to death. Let's find some new examples of persecution to mine. Kurds, Untouchables, Tibetans... there's racial prejudice in places other than the West and this is a great way to (I'm going to have myself for using this phrase) build awareness. To paraphrase Revenge of the Nerds, no one's gonna really be free until we admit that people other than straight white men can be racist.

 

[Herr Logan]

A summary of details in relation to Batman himself.

Batman's costume and equipment:


Dark grey and black costume, with plain black-bat insignia. Black trunks used as a rappel harness, with the brown utility belt, made from material pouches attached, along with keepers to fasten and secure in place to the harness. Regular cape, Nomex fire-resistant to some degree, used more as diversionary tactic in firefights. Tight fitting material cowl, which would mould into a harder material for the face and horns of the mask from the neck upwards. Scallops attached to the arms and gloves, used in similar vain to that shown in Begins. Black boots. Thin layer of chest armour underneath costume, flexible. Reflective eye lenses double as both infra-red vision and night-vision. Embedded in horns, directional microphones.

Sounds great.

I really, really, really would want the cowl to look very similar to the one in 'Batman Returns' (yes, long ears and all). They can do something with the neck to make it flexible. I don't know why anyone would be fooled into thinking the neck in 'Begins' is more flexible, because it sure as hell isn't. It would be a first-time thing for a movie Batman to have a flexible neck.

I'm thinking the lenses should be reflective, but the general tint should be somewhere between white and gray.

Also, I want a cape similar to the ones in the Burton movies. Perhaps not attached to the collar quite so low or in such a way that the cape covers so much of him all the time. Well, here's the thing... I love the way the Tim Burton Batman looked when he was standing still and the cape was covering his arms and much of the rest of him. Look at the Animated Series and see how he looks when he's standing and talking to someone like Commissioner Gordon and that's as close to it as you need. However, that's not very convenient for when he has to fight. I actually really liked when Michael Keaton (or his stunt double, whatever) would throw a disabling kick with his arms hidden beneath his cape. It looked so damn cool, almost dismissive! However, if we want a fully physical Batman, he's going to have to pull that cape back and put up his dukes at some points (not that I don't also want Keaton-kicks, I defintely do).
Our fellow fan Lujho has put a lot of thought into these issues and suggested a while back some kind of "shower curtain" type track around the collar, on which the cape could slide back a bit so his arms could move freely. Obviously it wouldn't look like a damn shower curtain rack, but I think you know what he was talking about. I don't know if such a think could be done well, but it's something to think about. The other option is to "cheat" a lot with the capes (use different ones for different scenes, which they already did in 'Begins'.

Content of utility-belt include: Grappling gun, smoke bombs, flash bang's, batarangs, shruiken, gas pellets, lock-pick, micro-camera, communication device, gas-mask, line-wire, pain-killers, small forensic kit for impromptu crime-scene invistigations.

Batmobile:

Black sports car, modified and upgraded. Tail-fins attached, suped-up and modifed engine for maximum speed and maneouvability, front-grill for powerfully barging though obstacles. Embossed bat pattern over front bonnet. Reinforced tyres, reinforced glass. Compact medical and forensic station in the rear and trunk of the car. Self-destruct mechanism in case of emergency capture. Something closely resembling this in appearence.

I was thinking something that looked simpler, at least from the outside. This model seems like it would be easier modifed from an existing car.

By the way, my mother got a new car just recently. I don't remember what make or model, but it was an improvement over her last "Midlife Crisis-Mobile" (a convertible with stick shift and a clutch that sucked... not that I actually know what a clutch is...). Good thing we have a car salesman in the family, or else she'd have to pay the full price (might be in the 45K range).
This is the same mother who resents me for not being out of college faster, draining my parents of all their hard-earned money. But at least the GPS system in her new luxury care will make sure that, even if her memory starts to deteriorate, she won't get lost on the way to her God damn beach house in Rehoboth-****ing Beach!!

Anyway, seeing her new car (can't believe I didn't ask her what kind it was, or take a closer look at the labels) gave me a couple of ideas for the Batmobile. Hell, this thing was so damn advanced, armor that baby up and it could be a 007 car. Believe it.

Mom only needs to carry whatever electronic key-thing came with the car in her purse, and when she's in close proximity to the car, she can just open up the door and the car will start automatically. Keyless, I tell you!! It has a built-in GPS system, the radio will seek out the kind of music you want instead of scanning station by station, and when you turn the car off, not only does the seat pull back, but the dashboard retracts as well!
There's other stuff she didn't have time to tell me. Okay, the radio thing isn't that important to the Batman, but he could use the scanning feature to check all current news reports quickly. He also needs to have to a police band scanner in there somehow.

Okay, here's my breakdown for the pre-existing features of the first base car for the Batmobile and how they help the cause:

• Keyless Entry and Starting-- activated by the "electric key," kept in utility belt, for quick entry and take-off when time is of the essence
• Automatic Retracting Dashboard and Driver's Seat-- for easier exits in emergencies (I know he's graceful and can get out of a damn car, but every bit helps... it's not a necessity, just a cool feature that helps)
• Radio Scanner-- for monitoring news reports quickly when the Batman is on the move (not to be confused with a Police Scanner, which he will also have, unless there's a way to modify the radio system to pick up those frequencies)
• GPS-- this helps him get around a somewhat unfamiliar Gotham in his first year; this car is not accompanied by a built-in Batcomputer when the Batman modifies it, but you can be damn sure that will be in the next one
• I don't know the specifics, but I hear tell this car is fast enough to race on its own

Maybe he will supe up the engine, maybe he won't. Like I said, this baby is fast as it is.
You covered a lot of this stuff already, so I'll try to stick to stuff you didn't say.

• He will add a thin coating of metal to bolster the shell, and on top of that, ceramic armor plates that explode when impacted (the 'Batman Handbook' suggested this, as it is less heavy than making the whole thing armored like a tank with dense metal). He will replace the windshield and all windows with bulletproof Lexar Plexi-glass (or whatever it's called).
• I don't think this one needs a lot of tactical and defensive gadgets. That makes more sense when the Batman makes the new, unspeakably tricked-out, "unstoppable" Batmobile, similar to what we are useful. That one will have a built-in Batcomputer
• He'll fit the car with gel-filled, self-sealing tires
• Again, he'll add fins and maybe some other features to the black-painted car that will let people know who's chasing their asses, and which car not to **** with if they find it parked in an alley or something

Here's something else I think would help for all future Batmobiles, if not the first: four-wheel steering. I've only seen this in a toy car that I played with all the time at the Discovery Channel Store, but I've heard tell that they made real cars like this. Anyone ever seen that toy car the "Sidewinder" before? It's got two buttons in addition to the forward/backward and left/right sticks. One button toggles between two- and four-wheel steering. The other button toggles the function of the rear wheels when it's set to 4-wheel-- make them turn exactly as the front wheels do, or turn in the opposite direction. When they turn in the same direction and you go forward or backward, the car basically goes diagonally. You can steer it back and forth and it looks like slolam skying or something. Anyway, when the back wheels are reversed, all you basically do when you go forward or backward is spin around, pretty much in place. Remember how in 'Batman Returns,' the Batmobile had its own piston lift? Well that's impractical as hell, and 4-wheel steering can perform that same function without adding as much weight to the Batmobile. The undercarriage would look quite different than a 2-wheel steering car (I assume so, as I've only seen it on a toy, and I know very little about cars), but not as cumbersome as the piston lift.
The Sidewinder, when set to four-wheel steering, tends to do something they car "switchblade" maneuver in video games (and maybe in real life, I don't know)-- you drive forward and then pull back (reverse) very suddenly and do a complete 180 degree spin, setting you up to drive off in the opposite direction. In the Batman's line of work, that's a damn useful feature. Four-wheel steering also allows for tighter turns (as in, it's not just 180 degrees or nothing). If this can be done (and I don't see why it couldn't), it could make for a very versatile Batmobile.

• To recap a 4-wheel steering Batmobile will allow the Batman to:
• Take very tight turns (the kind he needed a grappling line and a lamp post in 'BATMAN')
• Turn all the way around in in a limited amount of space
• Avoid cars on the road while in a high-speed chase by sliding laterally while still moving forward at top speed (some zig-zagging action in there would be cool, too)
• Parallel park much quicker (I actually heard the alleged real-life 4-wheel steering vehicle was good for this with the right training, since it would slide in diagonally)

Again, this feature maybe best used for the second Batmobile (the no-holds-barred, super-operative car with more features and armor), but I thought I should mention it. Tell me what you think about this idea.

The Batcave:

As you say, a cross between the Begins cave and the Batman89 cave. In this first movie, there will be a host of regular computer terminals, and one large central computer which feeds off of all the other smaller terminals. The many uses of the computer would be analysing evidence, hacking, analysing psychological profiles, developing pictures into digital format, planning digital schematics. There would be a small medical station, and a slightly larger forensic laboratory. There would also be a large table where a map of Gotham would be placed, along with various drawn out schematics for later digital transfer, including those for the batsuit, gadgets, the bat-glider, and the batmobile. Steel floor would be laid down for underneath where these stations are located, aswell as a large rotating structure where the Batmobile would rest. Bats would inhabit the cave, and while it's interior is gloomy, it is adequately lighted.

I like it a lot.

I would like for some of the more advanced features of the Cave to appear gradually throughout the movie, sometimes without any mention by the Batman or Alfred (the audience will be like, "that wasn't there before," and as it keeps happening, it'll be amusing as well as cool... "when the hell did he get that?").


Don't forget there's going to be a costuming station-- and I don't mean where he keeps the multiple Batsuits (yes, several, as there is no one-of-a-kind prototype here), which he refers to as "uniforms"-- I mean clothing, accessories and makeup (including prosthetics that change facial structure... basically the stuff they use with movie actors to make radical changes). This is where the Batman becomes "new" people. That dock worker indentity you mentioned for the first movie? This is where he changes his face and hair for those outings. We'll see Alfred helping Bruce with this, since he's the one with the training and who taught Bruce the preliminaries of acting and disguise (there might be mention of Bruce having studied with some truly acclaimed actor, but Alfred laid the groundwork), after all.

Also, a small gymnasium. Nothing fancy, but enough to keep his acrobatics and strength training sharp.

Good ideas.

 

[Herr Logan]

Ok, Herr, I have some ideas about Catwomen in a second movie, that I'd like to share with you.

One of the key aspects of Selina's personality that Bruce finds fascinating, is the fact that she is so unlike any other women that the millionaire-playboy persona of Bruce has ever experienced before. Now, what exactly this means, has to be made clear. For one thing, Bruce is not distracted by seduction, no matter how able to seductress, so having Bruce drawn to Selina in this fashion isn't applicable. Since Bruce is very much the dedicated crime-fighter, this wouldn't be the reason Bruce changes behavour in the presence of Selina. Bruce would start dating Selina, after he meets her at a charity auction.

Sounds good to me.

I presume your not against Bruce using women as a further compliment to strengthening the decadent-playboy persona in the eyes of those who he want's to keep ignorant to his "true self". By using, I dont meant Bruce is some Bond type who gets what he wants and gets out for only his own sake, but the type of women he dates in this matter, are al otherwise only interested in him for his wealth, parties, high-rise living, and handsome looks. In this case, Bruce wouldn't worry about using such flings as a way to further his Bruce Wayne demeanour, since the women in question wouldn't be getting dangerously close anyway.

Of course I'm not against it. That's a very important part of how he behaves in the comics, afterall, and the ladies' man aspect of his playboy facade is a better vehicle for character development than any other. I don't mean it has to be explored in detail, as it's almost self-explanatory. A line from 'Mask of the Phantasm' summed it up pretty well: "Honestly, Bruce, it's as though you pick these women because you know there's no chance of a committment." That should be made clear (doesn't have to be spelled out, but we should see it).

So, he approaches Selina in this fashion (or she approaches him, or Alfred introduces them), at a charity auction, and after they have been out once, Bruce learns that Selina isn't what he expected at all.
For one thing, she lives on the East Side in a very fashionable, glamorous and privileged apartment above tha part of the city. To Bruce's eyes, she is seemingly much like his own public image, in the respect that she has inherited wealth and uses it to sit-back and take an easy stride with life, donating money to charities as a way pay something back. Curiously however, to Bruce, she is intelligent, and has a fiesty personality that is always willing to challenge Bruce's opinion on matters which, many of the supermodels Bruce Wayne dated before, never did, or had any interest in doing. This is the aspect of Selina's personality that would attract Bruce to her. She would be seductive, but the effect this has on Bruce wouldn't be nearly as much as if some other cookie-clutter director was to take the easy character-dynamic. Bruce is the Batman. The Batman doesn't play. He isn't distracted. That, would still be at the heart of the character.

Sounds good.

I had one idea, that Selina's apartment in the East Side had previously belonged to Falcone, and that in the aftermath of the first movie, with Falcone losing many of his operations and privileges, it was being fenced to her by Cobblepot, through indirect channels. This is unbeknown to Selina, who would think she bought the place using the wealth accumalated from the many stolen jewel's she continues to make profit on, although she had bought it through less than legite circumstances (using the climate of Falcone's loss of operation's, and the financhial and political vaccum that that created in Gotham's underworld, as a distraction to aquire the place through less than legal means). Somehow, through detective work, Bruce would discover this, and make it part of the reason that Batman goes after Cobblepot again, for a third time.

Thoughts?

I'm not sure I understand this. An apartment was fenced to Selina? How does that work?

I'm okay with Selina fencing stolen Falcone stuff through the Penguin. I don't know if an apartment works. There's a way to connect all this stuff, I'm sure, but unless the Penguin can give the Batman some information that will lead him to evidence sufficient enough—and admissible—to have Dent formally charge Falcone, there’s not much point in setting up another Penguin fight. The Penguin can still make appearances without fighting, though. Again, if the Penguin can give the Batman something useful enough to move the plot in the direction of a Falcone trial, where Maroni will be testifying for the prosecution, then I’m fine with another deadly encounter with the Penguin.