Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Zaphod]

Sounds great.

I really, really, really would want the cowl to look very similar to the one in 'Batman Returns' (yes, long ears and all). They can do something with the neck to make it flexible. I don't know why anyone would be fooled into thinking the neck in 'Begins' is more flexible, because it sure as hell isn't. It would be a first-time thing for a movie Batman to have a flexible neck.

That sounds cool. Initially, I wasn't intending on a Returns design for the cowl, since I thought it to rigid. But thinking about it now, the ears and sleekness of that design was top-notch, let down only by the lack of felxibility in the neck, which curses every cowl Movie!Batman has worn to date in the Burton and Nolan movies. With the neck changed, by adopting (as I suggested) a thin material layer for the neck, which would gradually shape-and-mould into a stronger, harder material for the face and horns (basically the stuff that all the cowls are otherwise made of in the movies). If this could be done without having one materal effecting another (such as weight problems with the top half being too heavy for the material neck), then it should work perfectly, in making sure the actor in costume can move his head unhindered, while having it appear to the audiences as an otherwise perfect looking cowl.

I'm thinking the lenses should be reflective, but the general tint should be somewhere between white and gray.

Ok, that's perfectly reasonable. My main reason for having reflective-lenses as opposed to all-grey lenses, is because it would make the Batman appear all the more intimidating and frightening, especially when Batman holds up a writhing villain or mugger by the scruff of his neck, and the terrified soul is forced to peer into his own screaming reflection with his captors fearsome complexion.

Also, I want a cape similar to the ones in the Burton movies. Perhaps not attached to the collar quite so low or in such a way that the cape covers so much of him all the time. Well, here's the thing... I love the way the Tim Burton Batman looked when he was standing still and the cape was covering his arms and much of the rest of him. Look at the Animated Series and see how he looks when he's standing and talking to someone like Commissioner Gordon and that's as close to it as you need. However, that's not very convenient for when he has to fight. I actually really liked when Michael Keaton (or his stunt double, whatever) would throw a disabling kick with his arms hidden beneath his cape. It looked so damn cool, almost dismissive! However, if we want a fully physical Batman, he's going to have to pull that cape back and put up his dukes at some points (not that I don't also want Keaton-kicks, I defintely do).
Our fellow fan Lujho has put a lot of thought into these issues and suggested a while back some kind of "shower curtain" type track around the collar, on which the cape could slide back a bit so his arms could move freely. Obviously it wouldn't look like a damn shower curtain rack, but I think you know what he was talking about. I don't know if such a think could be done well, but it's something to think about. The other option is to "cheat" a lot with the capes (use different ones for different scenes, which they already did in 'Begins'.

You know, beleive it or not, when I first began reading this part of your post, the 'shower curtain' thing occured to me in part as a potential route, as did the more obvious changing of capes for different scenes. I agree that I want the Batman to appear in both forms with his cape. When he is silently staking out the shadows of Harvey Dent's office, or such like, listening into a conversation between the D.A and Gordan, the cape should be enveloping him. When he's fighting, or running, or driving the batmobile, to name but a few examples, the cape needs to rest back further on his shoulders so as not to give the impression of potentially hindering Batman's activities. More often than not, it comes down to audience's perception. The 'shower-curtain' idea is a good one, and upon thinking about it, it could work very well. Multiple 'cape-changes' would likely rely too much on audience-perception, in that it could be noticeable to someone with a keen eye, while the 'shower-curtain' idea wouldn't leave quite as many bemused, although it would still rely on the 'suspension of disbelief' policy, I favour this idea as opposed to multiple different capes.

The cape should be scalloped at the bottom, yes. That is a definate.

I was thinking something that looked simpler, at least from the outside. This model seems like it would be easier modifed from an existing car.

Hmm. I could see that working, however it would need a little more bat-features applied to it too really gel with me, personally. Taking that design, apply an ingrained bat-pattern on the front-bonnet of the car, all black, but embedded in the metal work so it's visible. The tail-fins are nice as they are, so keep them. Just a few more touches, and it would suit me fine, namely the bat-pattern I just mentioned.

By the way, my mother got a new car just recently. I don't remember what make or model, but it was an improvement over her last "Midlife Crisis-Mobile" (a convertible with stick shift and a clutch that sucked... not that I actually know what a clutch is...). Good thing we have a car salesman in the family, or else she'd have to pay the full price (might be in the 45K range).
This is the same mother who resents me for not being out of college faster, draining my parents of all their hard-earned money. But at least the GPS system in her new luxury care will make sure that, even if her memory starts to deteriorate, she won't get lost on the way to her God damn beach house in Rehoboth-****ing Beach!!

So that's two for family counselling, Herr? Mother and Son? Let me just jot that down in my schedule...there we are...

Oh, by the way, I did read everything you commented on, with the Batmobile, but I chose not to quote it and give it a detailed-response. Why? My knowledge of cars in any technical fashion as opposed to fictional designs for a batmobile, is practically null. Sorry, but all I know is that I want the car in the movie to be a faithfull batmobile: A fast, hi-tech, serious peice of kit. I agree with everything you said about police scanners, GPS, and electronic-key admission, those aspects I understand and agree with. Otherwise, I'm willing to assume everything you had to say on the batmobile technically is good.

I would like for some of the more advanced features of the Cave to appear gradually throughout the movie, sometimes without any mention by the Batman or Alfred (the audience will be like, "that wasn't there before," and as it keeps happening, it'll be amusing as well as cool... "when the hell did he get that?").

Thats cool, as long as it wouldn't appear too corny like it was in 60's Batman with Adam West, in which from one episode to the next, the Cave would contain a new machine and appliance capable off carrying out a different, and ridicously conveniant job concurrent with said episodes plot. Hyper-molecular dust seperator, anyone? I'm sure this isnt what your getting at though. I hope.

Don't forget there's going to be a costuming station-- and I don't mean where he keeps the multiple Batsuits (yes, several, as there is no one-of-a-kind prototype here), which he refers to as "uniforms"-- I mean clothing, accessories and makeup (including prosthetics that change facial structure... basically the stuff they use with movie actors to make radical changes). This is where the Batman becomes "new" people. That dock worker indentity you mentioned for the first movie? This is where he changes his face and hair for those outings. We'll see Alfred helping Bruce with this, since he's the one with the training and who taught Bruce the preliminaries of acting and disguise (there might be mention of Bruce having studied with some truly acclaimed actor, but Alfred laid the groundwork), after all.

Also, a small gymnasium. Nothing fancy, but enough to keep his acrobatics and strength training sharp

Yes, that's something I forgot to mention in my summary (some summary, huh?). And yes, a small gymnasium is needed. The ethic here is that 'you benefit from exercise, depending on what you put in', and Bruce doesn't need a huge, sprawling gym with infinite body building machines to keep himself trim and in superb shape. Apart from the 1000 press-ups, 1000 sit-ups he would perform, I imagine the gym as containing:

• Free weights. One large bar, aswell as a bench to use it on, and a collection of dumb-bells with various different size weights.
• A punching bag.
• A treadmill (perhaps a television placed in front and mounted, so that Bruce could keep up to track on the news and goings on in Gotham while he runs)
• A pull-up bar.
• A small matted area for the 1000 press-ups, sit-ups...
• Another matted area, larger, for practicing of martial-arts and offensive moves.

I dont imagine Bruce needing much more than that at any given time.

Thoughts?

 

[Zaphod]

I'm not sure I understand this. An apartment was fenced to Selina? How does that work?

I'm okay with Selina fencing stolen Falcone stuff through the Penguin. I don't know if an apartment works. There's a way to connect all this stuff, I'm sure, but unless the Penguin can give the Batman some information that will lead him to evidence sufficient enough—and admissible—to have Dent formally charge Falcone, there’s not much point in setting up another Penguin fight. The Penguin can still make appearances without fighting, though. Again, if the Penguin can give the Batman something useful enough to move the plot in the direction of a Falcone trial, where Maroni will be testifying for the prosecution, then I’m fine with another deadly encounter with the Penguin.

What I mean is this: In the aftermath of the first movie, Falcone has lost many of his operations and financhies, and so it stands to reason, also a great deal of the property he formally owned up all over Gotham he now can no longer. As these positions are lost, some slip through the knowledge and grip of the GCPD, and Cobbelpot, using the blow to organized-crime to his advantage, aquires into him an high-rise apartment formally owned by Carmine Falcone. This wouldn't be the only thing he had aquired, it would be established that Cobbelpot eagerly snapped up all he good get his paws on, as much as would allow without attracting suspicion anyway. He sells of the property, through indirect channels, to the person willing to pay the most for it. This person so happens to be a certain femme fatal who has come into to alot of wealth as a result of certain bugularies being carried out all of over Gotham. This apartment would be in the East-Side, and would be where Selina lives (and where she takes Bruce back to in one scene). I imagined it first as a way to link certain events together, and to build on a reason for the Batman paying Cobblepot another visit, however I think it could be worked into the greater-plot at hand in the second movie.

 

[Herr Logan]

Alright, let's just say we're setting this X-book six months from Now. Jean Gray has come back, the government is cracking down on mutants big-time ("interspecies" marriage or marriage between a mutant and a human is illegal. Hundreds of mutants are being thrown into internment camps. Sentinels are being built), and that whole 198 thing has been reversed, so we're back to somewhere roughly equivalent to Grant Morrison's New X-Men. Mutants are simultaneously cool, counterculture, the largest terrorist threat in the world (AIM has resurfaced as a pro-mutant terror group), and a minority.

Pretty much every X-Man is convinced that a war is coming and only Xavier and a select few of his followers still believe in the dream (let's say the original guys and some of Claremont's team). So why are they sticking with him? Well... because they're X-Men. But still, the situation is rife with tensions and one or two of the more amoral X-Men are all but declaring their allegiance to Magneto (who's not a supervillain again, but more of a "loyal opposition" to Xavier. His trouble-causing days are over and he wants to help, but he hasn't quite come around to X's point of view).

We open on the X-Men (ALL of them) in the new X-Compound. An X-Corps facility built in international waters off the coast of the United States, somewhere in the Gulf of Mexico. "I miss the mansion," Jubilee laments.

Wolverine: Just be glad that we got out of there before they made it illegal for mutants to own property.

Colossus: I hear it's already illegal for our kind to vote.

Cyclops: Just rumors. It's not too late to turn this around.

Wolverine: Think the Jews said that right before the Holocaust?

Cyclops: Rhetoric like that isn't doing anyone any good. We've got to get out of this "us versus them" thinking if we're going to survive.

Wolverine: The last time we tried to get out of us versus them, your wife died... again.

Cyclops: Was that before or after you threw a hissyfit and turned rogue for the five millionth time?

They reach the Danger Room. Holographics. Professor X's giant holographic head appears, transmitting from inside Cerebro. The new climate requires a more subtle touch. The days of a full-court press for every situation is over. Now the key is reducing the "mutant footprint." Teams will be three or less, no more. Larger teams will only be sent with special authorization.

The Danger Room explodes. Everyone hates the idea until Xavier explains himself. They're going to blend in. Dress in normal clothes (again, think Morrision's New X-Men) until push comes to shove... then they go into shock and awe mode (now think Whedon's Astonishing). The key is defusing situations before they get to shock and awe level. The X-Men are no longer a superhero team, they're more like the NAACP with their underwear on the outside, except not evil. (Kidding!) (mostly)

Teams will be paired up based on how their abilities and expertise compliment each other (think Global Frequency or JLU). In meta terms, where it creates banter, tension, unresolved sexual tension, or is just plain fun. Think of this series as several parallel old-time movie serials/buddy movies running together. Just like in, say, 24, we'll follow one team doing something, come to a cliffhanger, switch to another team, and so on and so forth.

Nightcrawler and Beast will investigate an Alabama faith healer who preaches tolerance towards mutants. With Reverend Stryker wannabes dominating the airwaves, getting mutants to be seen as people rather than abominations is a top priority.

Iceman and Northstar will rescue a kidnapped mutant child in Italy. Human-supremacist terrorists are planning to execute her on a live webcast.

And Phoenix and Cyclops are to... investigate a power fluctuation reading in Hawaii.

Only Nightcrawler and Beast are cool with their assignments (Nightcrawler: Ah, the fuzzy dudes get a chance to strut their stuff!). Iceman wants to know if this is some sort of "very special episode of" attempt to make him get over his "non-existent" homophobia, which isn't necessary anyway, because he saw Crash and it's kinda the same thing, right? And Cyclops wants to know why two senior X-Men are being assigned to a minor incident any rookie could handle.

Xavier: I have my reasons.

Just a note. My Xavier is kinda like House merged with Webster from The Inside. He's an omnipotent mentor guy who has two motives: The mutant greater good and teaching his students how to be the new generation of humanity. When those two come into conflict, it's a toss-up which will prove more important to him. Put bluntly, he can be a real bastard when he feels it's necessary and he will go to cruel, almost degrading lengths to make sure everyone on his team can perform without conflict because someday the fate of the world may rest on Wolverine and Cyclops being able to get along and he doesn't want that screwed up.

They go.

Nightcrawler and Beast arrive. Nightcrawler is incredulous as to how Beast can be an atheist after all he's seen.

Nightcrawler: Where you out to lunch when demons from H-E-double-hockey-stick invaded Manhattan?

Beast: Were you out to lunch when I turned into Leo the Lion?

Quell surprise! The faith healer is a mutant... and he actually can heal people. This just intensifies the debate.

Beast: I thought you said you healed people through the power of faith. Yet if it's your mutant power...

Preacher: And who do you think gave me this power? By the way, I hope I'm not offending you or anything, but I can't help but notice that you're both blue and... furry. Are you brothers?

Beast: No.

Nightcrawler: Well, in the way that black people are brothers, ja.

Beast: Why couldn't I have gotten the Hawaii assignment, why oh why? I bet Scott and Jean are having "fun."


Meanwhile, Jean and Scott fly to Hawaii. Things are tense.

Jean: So, wanna talk about your relationship with Emma?

Scott: So, wanna talk about your relationship with Logan?

A few panels of silence.

Jean: So, wanna talk about your relationship with Logan?

Scott: What?

Jean: Just kidding.

And that cues another ironic segue to...


Northstar and Iceman searching for clues. And having banter.

Northstar: Are you worried that I'm going to make a pass at you? Because I'm not. You've made it quite clear you wouldn't welcome such attention.

Iceman: Jean-Paul, the closest I've ever come to being attracted to you was when Jean-Marie stopped by.

Northstar: Hey, that's my sister!

Iceman: I'm glad she ain't mine. Hoo-boy!

Northstar: So how does this work, anyway? You're allowed to talk about T&A as much as you want, but as soon as I talk about what I find attractive in a man, you get uncomfortable?

Iceman: Oh, I can take it if you can.

Northstar: Okay. (faux-polite) My, Bobby, your buttocks are looking particularly well-defined this morning. Have you been working out?

Iceman: Why yes Jean-Paul, I have. Thank you for noticing. I like your cologne...

That's when they find that a Little Old Lady has overheard their every word.

Little Old Lady: You two need to find Jesus.


Another ironic (and I realize these segues are being ironic in a very Alanis Morrissette way, but work with me here) segue takes us back to Alabama. Nightcrawler is having a great time finally being able to talk with a fellow mutant of the faith when Beast walks out. Nightcrawler walks after him.

Nightcrawler: You think I'm backwards, don't I?

Beast: What?

Nightcrawler: You think I'm some sort of buck-toothed redneck because I still believe in God and the Garden of Eden and Noah's Ark when we're standing here, the new form of evolution. I mean, how can I not see it, right?

Beast: Yeah, I actually kinda am wondering. Operation Zero Tolerance. The Mutant Massacre. Genosha, for pity's sake! After all they've done to us, how can you still believe there's still someone up there looking out for us?

Nightcrawler: Faith.

Beast: Well, excuse me if I'm running a little low.

Nightcrawler: Then what do you have faith in? Faith that we're going to be accepted one day? Faith that things will get better? Tell me, Beast. Tell me what you have faith in.

Beast: ...I don't know.

Nightcrawler: Then I think you know why the Professor sent you here.

Beast: This the part where I see the light?

Nightcrawler: No. This is the part where you go looking for it.

Beast gestures to the church.

Beast: I'm telling you right now, I won't find it in there.

Nightcrawler: Just so long as you find it.


That bit of morale boosted, we cut to Hawaii. Jean and Scott have landed and are climbing a mountain. The atmosphere is romantic but neither of them notice it.

Jean: You do seem to have a certain tendency.

Scott: And what would that be?

Jean: Whenever you're alone, you jump right into bed with the nearest willing female. Madeline Pryor, Psylocke...

Scott: I was mind-whammied.

Jean: And you left Madeline, your wife and her child, for me...

Scott: You complaining about that? Once again for the hard of hearing, I was mind-whammied.

Jean: Really? How much of that was telepathy... and how much is just denial on your part?

Scott: Do you not want this relationship to work? You want to talk about Emma? I was doing just fine with her until you came back. The only reason we're together right now is I felt a sense of obligation.

Jean: The only reason you were together in the first place is because she wanted to get at me.

Scott: Oh, it's always about YOU, isn't it? The almighty goddamn Phoenix. Even when she's dead, it's only a matter of time before she comes back. I'M THE TEAM LEADER! And I'm your husband. I think that entitles me to some respect. And just for the slow in the audnece, respect would entail showing a little sensitivity about the times I got raped because apparently I'm catnip to psychics.

Jean: ...I just got it. This whole mission is the Professor's attempt to get us to fall back in love with each other.

Scott: I'm going to kill him.

Jean: You can't. He's not Onslaught anymore.

Scott: Let's just say he is. They'll have to believe the two of us.

Jean: After all, I'm the goddamn Phoenix and you're the team leader.

They share a small, hard-won smile.

Then they get rocked by a psychic attack. That minor power fluctuation Cerebro detected isn't so minor anymore. MADELINE PRYOR walks up to them, holding Cable in her arms like a baby.

Madeline: Hey hubby. This is the part where you say "Honey, I'm home."

CLIFFHANGER!


Northstar and Iceman have tracked the terrorists to their hide-out.

Northstar: I'll grab the girl, you put the human-supremacists on ice.

Iceman: Hey, low temperature jokes are my gig.

They kick down the door, only to see that the mutant girl is wearing the uniform of the human-supremacists. She points at our heroes and her arms cackle with power.

Mutant Girl: Death to mutants!

CLIFFHANGER!


In Alabama, more human-supremacists, wearing the same uniforms as the terrorists in Italy, bust into the church. They far outnumber Beast and Nightcrawler.

Terrorist: We only want the preacher-man. Our fight's not with you, mutants... not yet.

Nightcrawler: By "yet," you meant right... about... now, right?

They leap into action.

CLIFFHANGER!


So, whaddya think?


P.S. One last note: I'd like to get away from the "mutant as Jew/African-American/homosexual" paradigm which has, let's be frank, been done to death. Let's find some new examples of persecution to mine. Kurds, Untouchables, Tibetans... there's racial prejudice in places other than the West and this is a great way to (I'm going to have myself for using this phrase) build awareness. To paraphrase Revenge of the Nerds, no one's gonna really be free until we admit that people other than straight white men can be racist.

Okay, I must have misunderstood your earlier question. You were asking if this was thread the appropriate place for this suggested medium, not whether it's appropriate to address a different franchise when we've been focusing on a different one for a while.

I think maybe a different thread is better, since this is supposed to be for imagining stories in non-comics media (TV, movies, video games). Sorry I didn't read closely enough. Apparently it was the middle of the night when I read that.

 

[Zaphod]

Damn it, Herr! Where's your uber-response when I need it!?

You think about posting that, and I'll consider posting the other half of my Spider-Man movie-concept, or preferably, a detailed plan of Bruce's training. This would include: Bruce in the FBI (at a shooting range, completing an excerise course, and some forensic stuff!), then to Bruce at Kirigi's Monastery (Bruce carrying out chores for Kirigi and for the village surrounding the monastery, before starting the training proper) and then to Ducard in Paris (Bruce tracks down the private detective/manhunter, and together the two track down a fugitive). Those are the three main factors of the origin, with some other details inbetween.

 

[Herr Logan]

Damn it, Herr! Where's your uber-response when I need it!?

You think about posting that, and I'll consider posting the other half of my Spider-Man movie-concept, or preferably, a detailed plan of Bruce's training. This would include: Bruce in the FBI (at a shooting range, completing an excerise course, and some forensic stuff!), then to Bruce at Kirigi's Monastery (Bruce carrying out chores for Kirigi and for the village surrounding the monastery, before starting the training proper) and then to Ducard in Paris (Bruce tracks down the private detective/manhunter, and together the two track down a fugitive). Those are the three main factors of the origin, with some other details inbetween.

Sorry about that, Zaphod. I got sidetracked by your other points.

I was trying to give a semi-detailed outline of the entire movie, but I haven't even gotten through the first act. I laid out a bunch of stuff for Bruce's childhood, and he was just going to get on the plane at age 14 (when most of the content at Wayne Manor is discussed, since he's now old enough for Leslie to stop demanding that he not do heavy weightlifting).

I'm thinking maybe we should stick to 'The Man Who Falls' with regard to the FBI. It will drive home the point that he can't work within the system. He should learn criminalistics elsewhere, and learn old-school detection from veteran detectives. Those wouldn't yield very substantial flashbacks, but then again, neither did the "hungry and homeless" aspects of Bruce's journey in 'Begins'.

By the way, that scene I wrote where the Batman hands Gordon several forms of electronic surveillance? I'm pretty sure now that most of that isn't admissible, so there's no point in the Batman bringing digital and traditional versions. It's just for his own benefit and to let Gordon know they're on the right track. Gordon should tell the Batman early on that he doesn't want to know the Batman's methods if he can't use the fruits of those investigations. Send him anonymous tips with a lot of detail and no specific information about how he got it.

I can't send what I've got from where I am, but I'll get to work on that tonight and just send the first part of the first act (the stuff before he leaves home at age 14).

Again, sorry for the delays.

 

[Zaphod]

Sorry about that, Zaphod. I got sidetracked by your other points.

I was trying to give a semi-detailed outline of the entire movie, but I haven't even gotten through the first act. I laid out a bunch of stuff for Bruce's childhood, and he was just going to get on the plane at age 14 (when most of the content at Wayne Manor is discussed, since he's now old enough for Leslie to stop demanding that he not do heavy weightlifting).

I'm thinking maybe we should stick to 'The Man Who Falls' with regard to the FBI. It will drive home the point that he can't work within the system. He should learn criminalistics elsewhere, and learn old-school detection from veteran detectives. Those wouldn't yield very substantial flashbacks, but then again, neither did the "hungry and homeless" aspects of Bruce's journey in 'Begins'.

By the way, that scene I wrote where the Batman hands Gordon several forms of electronic surveillance? I'm pretty sure now that most of that isn't admissible, so there's no point in the Batman bringing digital and traditional versions. It's just for his own benefit and to let Gordon know they're on the right track. Gordon should tell the Batman early on that he doesn't want to know the Batman's methods if he can't use the fruits of those investigations. Send him anonymous tips with a lot of detail and no specific information about how he got it.

I can't send what I've got from where I am, but I'll get to work on that tonight and just send the first part of the first act (the stuff before he leaves home at age 14).

Again, sorry for the delays.

Nice to hear of the progress, Herr

I haven't glanced through my copy of 'The Man Who Falls' for what seems like a lifetime (I have it as a part of the 'secret-origins' book which I picked up years ago on a market somewhere, it's amazing what you can find when your not looking.) God knows where it is now though, probaly up in the loft somewhere, or protected somewhere in a box at the back of my wardrobe, either way, I'm thinking of saving myself the hassle of looking for it (even though, I will find it, thats too priceless an item of comic-book goodness to misplace forever!), and just buying the 'Batman Begins' comic of the movie for cheap, since that contains the story also.

From what I remember of Bruce at the FBI in that story, was the mess of bureaucracy which caused dissfavour in him, and to leave the system for good, in favour of personalising himself with a closer, hands-on approach to dealing with crime, which inspired his training with mentors all over the globe, such as detectives, manhunters, martial-artists, etc. Again, I'm not completely sure about this, so if you wouldn't mind filling me in just in case, until I get a copy of the story again at least.

For Bruce's training with Kirigi, it should resemble more than anything else in 'Begins', the training that Bruce underwent with Ducard in that movie. That is to say, that Bruce will learn martial-arts, meditation, the use of non-offensive and disarming weapons, such as shruiken, and explosive powders in many forms, aswell as training with boomerangs (later to be conformed into 'batarangs'). He would also learn ninja-techniques, including stealth, invisibility, aswell as climbing. Before all this though, Bruce would carry our chores for both the monastery, and the villagers that live below it, and this would be shown aswell.

Thirdly, for Bruce's training with Ducard, he travels incognito to Paris. When he finally does locate Henri Ducard, the detective/manhunter will take Bruce on as a temporary protege and use him in an operation in tracking down a fugitive. All the while, Bruce is learning techniques, aswell as using some of what he has already learnt in his travels. I would naturally still include Bruce choosing to leave Ducard after he discovers the 'means' by which his mentor operates.

These would be the three main parts of the origin, but I would also want to include breif scenes of Bruce under the tutelege of Willie Dogget, aswell as learning transformation under a mask (you having mentioned something about this previously).

I will await your outline for Bruce's childhood before posting my own detailed outline for these.

 

[Herr Logan]

That sounds cool. Initially, I wasn't intending on a Returns design for the cowl, since I thought it to rigid. But thinking about it now, the ears and sleekness of that design was top-notch, let down only by the lack of felxibility in the neck, which curses every cowl Movie!Batman has worn to date in the Burton and Nolan movies. With the neck changed, by adopting (as I suggested) a thin material layer for the neck, which would gradually shape-and-mould into a stronger, harder material for the face and horns (basically the stuff that all the cowls are otherwise made of in the movies). If this could be done without having one materal effecting another (such as weight problems with the top half being too heavy for the material neck), then it should work perfectly, in making sure the actor in costume can move his head unhindered, while having it appear to the audiences as an otherwise perfect looking cowl.

It's good that you see reason.

Ok, that's perfectly reasonable. My main reason for having reflective-lenses as opposed to all-grey lenses, is because it would make the Batman appear all the more intimidating and frightening, especially when Batman holds up a writhing villain or mugger by the scruff of his neck, and the terrified soul is forced to peer into his own screaming reflection with his captors fearsome complexion.

Actually, it was redundant for me to even say what I did in the way I did. I, personally, have not seen any lenses that could be described as "white" and still be a real mirror (unless you're in the white room... with black curtains... at the station... okay, I'll stop now). I just didn't want the lenses to be only plain mirrors. They'd still be quite reflective, and post-production effects can give us a perfectly clear reflection of terrified criminals in close-ups. Anyway, I figured and off-white/gray would blend in well.

Here's a thought that could be deemed silly: what about a yellow tint? Nightcrawler from the X-Men (and his mommy, that trecherous ***** Mystique) has eyes that are pure yellow with no pupils, and they shine a little bit. That's creepy. How about the Batman has just slightly yellow-tinted reflective lenses, to emphasize the demonic appearance he's supposed to have?

Just a spur of the moment idea. Be honest with the feedback.

You know, beleive it or not, when I first began reading this part of your post, the 'shower curtain' thing occured to me in part as a potential route, as did the more obvious changing of capes for different scenes. I agree that I want the Batman to appear in both forms with his cape. When he is silently staking out the shadows of Harvey Dent's office, or such like, listening into a conversation between the D.A and Gordan, the cape should be enveloping him. When he's fighting, or running, or driving the batmobile, to name but a few examples, the cape needs to rest back further on his shoulders so as not to give the impression of potentially hindering Batman's activities. More often than not, it comes down to audience's perception. The 'shower-curtain' idea is a good one, and upon thinking about it, it could work very well. Multiple 'cape-changes' would likely rely too much on audience-perception, in that it could be noticeable to someone with a keen eye, while the 'shower-curtain' idea wouldn't leave quite as many bemused, although it would still rely on the 'suspension of disbelief' policy, I favour this idea as opposed to multiple different capes.

The cape should be scalloped at the bottom, yes. That is a definate.

Ah, so we're on the same page.

I wonder if Lujho has figured out a way to implement this sliding cape track idea.

Hmm. I could see that working, however it would need a little more bat-features applied to it too really gel with me, personally. Taking that design, apply an ingrained bat-pattern on the front-bonnet of the car, all black, but embedded in the metal work so it's visible. The tail-fins are nice as they are, so keep them. Just a few more touches, and it would suit me fine, namely the bat-pattern I just mentioned.

Sounds okay by me. I did want the hood design to be somewhat subtle, but yeah, it should be noticable enough without being ridiculous. Because "It's my car, dammit!"

I just don't want a balls-out bat-face cowcatcher on the front. It should have something there for ramming and pushing, though (like police cars and those God damn SUVs). Anyway, the second Batmobile should have something very durable and imposing for that purpose (although still not tacky), and I guess the jet-turbine air intakes (because the next Batmobile is going to have a jet engine, baby) would be on either side in the front, rather than right in the center like with the 'BATMAN' and 'Batman Returns' Batmobile. One note about that movie car I just mentioned-- the way that thing was built, there's no way that could have been a real jet-turbine system. The cockpit was right in the way. I wouldn't know any of that if a friend hadn't told me, by the way.

Our Batmobile has to be bigger and more accurately designed and proportioned.

So that's two for family counselling, Herr? Mother and Son? Let me just jot that down in my schedule...there we are...

Don't you people tell me you're not entertained by my tragic and miserable family life!

Oh, by the way, I did read everything you commented on, with the Batmobile, but I chose not to quote it and give it a detailed-response. Why? My knowledge of cars in any technical fashion as opposed to fictional designs for a batmobile, is practically null. Sorry, but all I know is that I want the car in the movie to be a faithfull batmobile: A fast, hi-tech, serious peice of kit. I agree with everything you said about police scanners, GPS, and electronic-key admission, those aspects I understand and agree with. Otherwise, I'm willing to assume everything you had to say on the batmobile technically is good.

What, and you think I do know a damn thing about cars? I'd be more detailed in describing stuff if I did.

What did you think about the idea of 4-wheel steering? Seriously, I got this idea from a toy and the rumor that there were real cars that used that feature. It's not a car-buff thing.

Thats cool, as long as it wouldn't appear too corny like it was in 60's Batman with Adam West, in which from one episode to the next, the Cave would contain a new machine and appliance capable off carrying out a different, and ridicously conveniant job concurrent with said episodes plot. Hyper-molecular dust seperator, anyone? I'm sure this isnt what your getting at though. I hope.

Of course, not, dammit! I meant that the growing computer system and communications array, etc. and things like the Batmobile turn-table would show up pieces at a time every time the audience visits the Cave. Also, the crime lab may look more and more sophisticated as time goes on. Viewers with an eye for detail may think at first that it's errors in film continuity (because a lot of this isn't spoken about by the characters once the premise is established that they're furnishing the Cave piece by piece by themselves). Actually, I think the gym should also be one of the later additions, since that's not an immediate necessity for the War on Crime. Tactical measures (armory), tools for detection (forensics equipment), information gathering (computers and library), medical care (a MASH-like emergency station for now), costuming (it will literally look like a partial dressing room, with mirrors and lights and racks of costumes and drawers full of makeup and prosthetics), and transportation come first. The Batman was in perfect shape when came to Gotham, so he can get by for a whileon the exertions of his patrolling for exercise. As he becomes more and more settled in his new home, he sets up the things he'd need for a more normal routine.

Like I said, he needs at least one really good computer and a crime lab and an armory set up in the beginning, and then things build from there. Because many of the "time jumps" cross the span of days and weeks, it's not implausible when this elaborate new equipment just appears, since we already saw Bruce and Alfred bringing parts down to the cave and assembling them in the beginning. We set up the routine, the audience doesn't need to see everything else actually happen.

Yes, that's something I forgot to mention in my summary (some summary, huh?). And yes, a small gymnasium is needed. The ethic here is that 'you benefit from exercise, depending on what you put in', and Bruce doesn't need a huge, sprawling gym with infinite body building machines to keep himself trim and in superb shape. Apart from the 1000 press-ups, 1000 sit-ups he would perform, I imagine the gym as containing:

• Free weights. One large bar, aswell as a bench to use it on, and a collection of dumb-bells with various different size weights.
• A punching bag.
• A treadmill (perhaps a television placed in front and mounted, so that Bruce could keep up to track on the news and goings on in Gotham while he runs)
• A pull-up bar.
• A small matted area for the 1000 press-ups, sit-ups...
• Another matted area, larger, for practicing of martial-arts and offensive moves.

I dont imagine Bruce needing much more than that at any given time.

Thoughts?

That sounds great, Zaphod. Good job.

By the next movie, everything in the Cave will be more sophisticated and impressive. There will be more metal, level floor surfaces. That won't cover the entire space used, but definitely under all expensive or delicate equipment and also the exercise area.

Changes in the Batcave In Movie 2--

Command Center:
Larger, semi-circular computer station that basically looks like the one in the Animated Series. Lots of monitors, one big central one.
The text library will either be much expanded, or almost completely gone, depending on whether the Batman had every page of every book scanned into the Batcomputer.

Ah yes, there will be a full-blown Batcomputer. He will now have constructed an elaborate, advanced database that will be like the world's most extensive encyclopedia (general interest, as in almost everything recorded can be found there, with all kinds of expert knowledge on every subject). Beyond that, and more to the point, it will also be a centralized crime database built from every other criminal database in the world that the Batman was able to hack or otherwise tap into. Dossiers on every suspected, arrested, charged, and convicted or acquitted subject in the criminal justice system are in the database, with notes from the Batman himself where he added them. The Batman has notes on lots of things in the computer in general. It's also where he stores his war journal, composed of text files and voice recordings.
It can run simulations and war games (I know that's a black mark in the Batman universe now, which is why it obviously belongs) as well, and so forth. I know that last part makes it sound like the Batman is unstoppable, but keep in mind, these simulations are based on the profiles of "regular" criminals, not people like the Joker.

More later. Thoughts?

 

[Zaphod]

Actually, it was redundant for me to even say what I did in the way I did. I, personally, have not seen any lenses that could be described as "white" and still be a real mirror (unless you're in the white room... with black curtains... at the station... okay, I'll stop now). I just didn't want the lenses to be only plain mirrors. They'd still be quite reflective, and post-production effects can give us a perfectly clear reflection of terrified criminals in close-ups. Anyway, I figured and off-white/gray would blend in well.

Here's a thought that could be deemed silly: what about a yellow tint? Nightcrawler from the X-Men (and his mommy, that trecherous ***** Mystique) has eyes that are pure yellow with no pupils, and they shine a little bit. That's creepy. How about the Batman has just slightly yellow-tinted reflective lenses, to emphasize the demonic appearance he's supposed to have?

Just a spur of the moment idea. Be honest with the feedback.

Well, reflective-lenses can appear with a grey/white tint depending on what it is exactly that is being reflected into them. For instance, if Batman looked into the ripples of water in a lake, they would be visible in the lenses, and since the light is reflected on those same ripples, that will be evident in the change of tone in the lenses. See what I mean? That's only an example though, understand that the City-lights of Gotham during night would have an effect on how the lenses appear externally. Also, the lenses double as both NV and Thermal-Vision sighting, so that would have some effect on them I think. I imagine the lenses lighting up with a small but noticebale red dot, a'la Terminator, whenever Batman would use Thermal-Vision, or they could light up completely red and give a real horrendous scare to anyone who happens to be watching. I wouldn't want the lenses lighting up green though, for NV, but then I'm intending on at least one P.O.V shot through Batman's eyes during these modes, so you wouldn't have to see it.

Otherwise, I have nothing wrong with a yellow-tint on some occasions.

I wonder if Lujho has figured out a way to implement this sliding cape track idea.

PM?

Sounds okay by me. I did want the hood design to be somewhat subtle, but yeah, it should be noticable enough without being ridiculous. Because "It's my car, dammit!"

I just don't want a balls-out bat-face cowcatcher on the front. It should have something there for ramming and pushing, though (like police cars and those God damn SUVs). Anyway, the second Batmobile should have something very durable and imposing for that purpose (although still not tacky), and I guess the jet-turbine air intakes (because the next Batmobile is going to have a jet engine, baby) would be on either side in the front, rather than right in the center like with the 'BATMAN' and 'Batman Returns' Batmobile. One note about that movie car I just mentioned-- the way that thing was built, there's no way that could have been a real jet-turbine system. The cockpit was right in the way. I wouldn't know any of that if a friend hadn't told me, by the way.

I still think a cowcatcher should be implemented for the first Batmobile. It doesn't have too resemble a bat-motif too much, although it should have something to instill that image in people's heads should they catch a glimpse of it. It could just be some sort of grill design to begin with, until the second movie - where the next batmobile would be leaps and bounds ahead in terms of an upgrade in this department.

Don't you people tell me you're not entertained by my tragic and miserable family life!

I didn't say I wasn't entertained. The sadist in me only wants to play family counsel for some truly agonizing fun!!

What, and you think I do know a damn thing about cars? I'd be more detailed in describing stuff if I did.

What did you think about the idea of 4-wheel steering? Seriously, I got this idea from a toy and the rumor that there were real cars that used that feature. It's not a car-buff thing.

Ok, well I'll go back and re-read what you said about it after this post, then I'll respond with my thoughts.

Of course, not, dammit! I meant that the growing computer system and communications array, etc. and things like the Batmobile turn-table would show up pieces at a time every time the audience visits the Cave. Also, the crime lab may look more and more sophisticated as time goes on. Viewers with an eye for detail may think at first that it's errors in film continuity (because a lot of this isn't spoken about by the characters once the premise is established that they're furnishing the Cave piece by piece by themselves). Actually, I think the gym should also be one of the later additions, since that's not an immediate necessity for the War on Crime. Tactical measures (armory), tools for detection (forensics equipment), information gathering (computers and library), medical care (a MASH-like emergency station for now), costuming (it will literally look like a partial dressing room, with mirrors and lights and racks of costumes and drawers full of makeup and prosthetics), and transportation come first. The Batman was in perfect shape when came to Gotham, so he can get by for a whileon the exertions of his patrolling for exercise. As he becomes more and more settled in his new home, he sets up the things he'd need for a more normal routine.

That all sounds good to me . I'd want Alfred to make it known to Bruce and the audience, that while Batman is out patrolling the City, he'll maintain regular routine adelivery of Bruce's constant stream of new gadgets and appliances, coming in for use in the Cave. This way, it's made clear for the slow in the audience (y'know, those who lambast a movie for not explaining evvvery little thing for them...,you know who you are!!), plus it keeps things nice and coherent while keeping the Cave on it's evolutionary path to true and supreme greatness!!

Like I said, he needs at least one really good computer and a crime lab and an armory set up in the beginning, and then things build from there. Because many of the "time jumps" cross the span of days and weeks, it's not implausible when this elaborate new equipment just appears, since we already saw Bruce and Alfred bringing parts down to the cave and assembling them in the beginning. We set up the routine, the audience doesn't need to see everything else actually happen.

Oh, no question about it, Herr! No question about it! 'BATMAN' got it right in terms of the computer-terminal layout in the Cave. Although, I'd want the main-large computer marginally bigger than that, and slimmer, more aesthetically pleasing smaller-monitors to accompany it. In fact, while I certainly want a decently-fledged computer station in this movie, exactly as we have been disscussing (something 'Begins' was gleefully overlooking), I imagine the layout as being a mass of wires and overhanging monitors, and then for the second movie, we have a proffesionally laden computer-station with everything tucked away into it's positions nicely.

By the next movie, everything in the Cave will be more sophisticated and impressive. There will be more metal, level floor surfaces. That won't cover the entire space used, but definitely under all expensive or delicate equipment and also the exercise area.

Changes in the Batcave In Movie 2--

Command Center:
Larger, semi-circular computer station that basically looks like the one in the Animated Series. Lots of monitors, one big central one.
The text library will either be much expanded, or almost completely gone, depending on whether the Batman had every page of every book scanned into the Batcomputer.

Ah yes, there will be a full-blown Batcomputer. He will now have constructed an elaborate, advanced database that will be like the world's most extensive encyclopedia (general interest, as in almost everything recorded can be found there, with all kinds of expert knowledge on every subject). Beyond that, and more to the point, it will also be a centralized crime database built from every other criminal database in the world that the Batman was able to hack or otherwise tap into. Dossiers on every suspected, arrested, charged, and convicted or acquitted subject in the criminal justice system are in the database, with notes from the Batman himself where he added them. The Batman has notes on lots of things in the computer in general. It's also where he stores his war journal, composed of text files and voice recordings.
It can run simulations and war games (I know that's a black mark in the Batman universe now, which is why it obviously belongs) as well, and so forth. I know that last part makes it sound like the Batman is unstoppable, but keep in mind, these simulations are based on the profiles of "regular" criminals, not people like the Joker.

That all sounds great to me, good work . Dont forget, a nice, comfy, revolvable chair.

 

[Herr Logan]

Nice to hear of the progress, Herr

I haven't glanced through my copy of 'The Man Who Falls' for what seems like a lifetime (I have it as a part of the 'secret-origins' book which I picked up years ago on a market somewhere, it's amazing what you can find when your not looking.) God knows where it is now though, probaly up in the loft somewhere, or protected somewhere in a box at the back of my wardrobe, either way, I'm thinking of saving myself the hassle of looking for it (even though, I will find it, thats too priceless an item of comic-book goodness to misplace forever!), and just buying the 'Batman Begins' comic of the movie for cheap, since that contains the story also.

From what I remember of Bruce at the FBI in that story, was the mess of bureaucracy which caused dissfavour in him, and to leave the system for good, in favour of personalising himself with a closer, hands-on approach to dealing with crime, which inspired his training with mentors all over the globe, such as detectives, manhunters, martial-artists, etc. Again, I'm not completely sure about this, so if you wouldn't mind filling me in just in case, until I get a copy of the story again at least.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. He stayed on for six weeks and then left. I was going to alter this bit a bit originally, but now that I'm relatively sure that all that most of the evidence the Batman would bring Lt. Gordon can't be used by the cops themselves, I figure it's worth emphasizing early on as it will come up again when Gordon lays out to the Batman what he will and will not do. I don't want them to finalize a coherent system between themselves on the screen, but I want it implied that they have come to an agreement and found a rhythm after Gordon tells the Batman that he doesn't want to see any illegally obtained evidence other than maybe photographs, and even then he's reluctant.

For Bruce's training with Kirigi, it should resemble more than anything else in 'Begins', the training that Bruce underwent with Ducard in that movie. That is to say, that Bruce will learn martial-arts, meditation, the use of non-offensive and disarming weapons, such as shruiken, and explosive powders in many forms, aswell as training with boomerangs (later to be conformed into 'batarangs'). He would also learn ninja-techniques, including stealth, invisibility, aswell as climbing. Before all this though, Bruce would carry our chores for both the monastery, and the villagers that live below it, and this would be shown aswell.

I agree with most of this. I wouldn't think there would be a lot of time devoted to this, however, just as with any part of his origin. I'd have it play out mostly the same way as in 'The Man Who Falls,' with the addition of actual brief scenes of combat and stealth training. They didn't show that in the comic.
What they did show is this:
Bruce climbs up a mountain, at his own risk (pretty much like 'Begins,' except in here he is prepared for the journey, as he hasn't been in prison and has access to his money. During all this, there would be voiceover monologue that says that Bruce spent thousands of dollars in bribes to learn of this place and get to it. He knocks on the door and noone answers, so he manipulates these knobs on the front doors in a manner explained to him by one of his well-paid sources, triggering the lock mechanism and allowing him entry.
I'd have him sitting in the lotus position in the lobby/foyier/whatever just inside the doors and stay there as the caption tells you how many weeks he's been waiting, and have his beard grow with each passing week. Then he does stupid chores for 4 months (sweep the floor for one, sweep and wash dishes for one, sweep and wash dishes and boil rice for two) and finally gets to train to be a ninja warrior for six or so months.

By the way, you mentioned Bruce doing chores for the villagers beneath the mountain? Uh uh. Kirigi is, from what little I've seen, an selfish old bastard, and I'm not prettying up his conceited, self-important ass by showing him give a rat's ass about anything outside the doors of his monastery. If Bruce were to go down there, it would be to pick up a huge bundle of non-perishable groceries to tote back up the mountain, by order of the Master. Anyone who's a big enough a$$hole to leave a man who risked death to find him sitting in his doorway for three weeks just to make him sweep the floor, wash the dishes and boil the rice for four months has to be kept pure in all his self-important glory!
Did you see 'Kill Bill: Volume 2'? Take that crazy old bastard at the monastery, strip away the fancy showing off, blatant insults and tacky facial hair, and you've got the 'Man Who Falls' portrayal of Master Kirigi.

Anyway, I want the full content of this section of the story I've been citing to be shown, plus actual training (which was not shown or specified at all).
Master Kirigi will tell Bruce he basically pities him because Bruce's physical and mental capacities are nearly perfect (this is in the 11th month). Bruce doesn't understand, and the old man says you can't value what comes so easily. Then he says the only thing left for him to do is to unteach him everything he learned in the last several months. Bruce asks why, Kirigi fortune-cookies (it's a verb now... TM) on about how a great violence marks Bruce and will destroy him very soon if he's not very lucky. It will take another twenty years. Bruce says he doesn't have twenty years and he doesn't want to forget what he learned here. One last night of boiling rice and washing dishes (this has been going on the entire time, of course), but Kirigi doesn't ask him to sweep, and then Bruce is gone. Next stop, France!

The stuff you mentioned as far as the training is all good, except for the boomerangs. That's not a ninja weapon, and Bruce learned that in Australia from a bushman.
This should be shown in a very brief scene (not in the midst of the Kirigi training sequence) where Bruce thows a boomerang and then goes to collect the bird he hits, determined to eat at least part of everything he kills while training, as he's not partial to the meaningless death of any living creature. The voiceover will explain this.
He'll also be shown very briefly in Argentina, throwing a bola to catch a herd animal or other quadroped of some sort. The voiceover will explain that a traditional bola isn't a toy and can easily break the limbs of the animals it catches. This is why there will be a very brief note later on about the Batman's equipment and how the bat-bolas are specifically designed to cause as little harm as possible (they're much lighter, and they retract automatically so the bolas don't swing around for as long).
Less-than-lethal weaponry is his thing, and he prefers most of his customed stuff to be designed not to cause too much damage if it doesn't have to. If he wants to put a hurtin' on someone, he will, but he'll save that for when catches up to you while you're lying face down on the ground with your legs or arms tied to your torso or together.

Thirdly, for Bruce's training with Ducard, he travels incognito to Paris. When he finally does locate Henri Ducard, the detective/manhunter will take Bruce on as a temporary protege and use him in an operation in tracking down a fugitive. All the while, Bruce is learning techniques, aswell as using some of what he has already learnt in his travels. I would naturally still include Bruce choosing to leave Ducard after he discovers the 'means' by which his mentor operates.

I'm not sure what to do with this one, specifically. I don't want to add a real subplot hear, but Ducard has to be shown as a mentor and he has to speak a few lines at least.

These would be the three main parts of the origin, but I would also want to include breif scenes of Bruce under the tutelege of Willie Dogget, aswell as learning transformation under a mask (you having mentioned something about this previously).

I will await your outline for Bruce's childhood before posting my own detailed outline for these.

Willie Dogget was a famous detective in Bruce's origin, right? That's another scenario I don't know how to boil down to a brief scene in a movie, but some detective mentoring scene has to be there.

I'll try to get my outline posted soon.

 

[Herr Logan]

Well, reflective-lenses can appear with a grey/white tint depending on what it is exactly that is being reflected into them. For instance, if Batman looked into the ripples of water in a lake, they would be visible in the lenses, and since the light is reflected on those same ripples, that will be evident in the change of tone in the lenses. See what I mean? That's only an example though, understand that the City-lights of Gotham during night would have an effect on how the lenses appear externally. Also, the lenses double as both NV and Thermal-Vision sighting, so that would have some effect on them I think. I imagine the lenses lighting up with a small but noticebale red dot, a'la Terminator, whenever Batman would use Thermal-Vision, or they could light up completely red and give a real horrendous scare to anyone who happens to be watching. I wouldn't want the lenses lighting up green though, for NV, but then I'm intending on at least one P.O.V shot through Batman's eyes during these modes, so you wouldn't have to see it.

Otherwise, I have nothing wrong with a yellow-tint on some occasions.

Fair enough. I just wanted the eyes to be able to "disappear" in to shadow the way they did for the Keaton cowls in certain lighting. I honestly dont know what difference it would make if it was pure white mirrored lenses.

PM?

Oh, so now I'm supposed to actually do something about this instead of sitting here and wondering? Fine, then!

I still think a cowcatcher should be implemented for the first Batmobile. It doesn't have too resemble a bat-motif too much, although it should have something to instill that image in people's heads should they catch a glimpse of it. It could just be some sort of grill design to begin with, until the second movie - where the next batmobile would be leaps and bounds ahead in terms of an upgrade in this department.

I see your point, actually. I still want it to look pretty stripped down from a full-blown Batmobile, though, and clearly made from a luxury care instead of a homemade tank.

I didn't say I wasn't entertained. The sadist in me only wants to play family counsel for some truly agonizing fun!!

You would deserve it, too, if you had to to tell my mother what you thought was best for her or how you thought she should communicate with her son. Oh, what would happen to you...

Ok, well I'll go back and re-read what you said about it after this post, then I'll respond with my thoughts.

Damn right!

That all sounds good to me . I'd want Alfred to make it known to Bruce and the audience, that while Batman is out patrolling the City, he'll maintain regular routine adelivery of Bruce's constant stream of new gadgets and appliances, coming in for use in the Cave. This way, it's made clear for the slow in the audience (y'know, those who lambast a movie for not explaining evvvery little thing for them...,you know who you are!!), plus it keeps things nice and coherent while keeping the Cave on it's evolutionary path to true and supreme greatness!!

Well, Alfred can direct movers to place the packages on one a truck owned by Bruce Wayne that Alfred can drive into the Batcave (the long way around) and wait for Bruce to help unload and assemble. Alfred is strong for an older man, but you can't ask him to carry pieces of a turn-table car port into an almost unfurnished cave by himself, even on a dolly or handtruck. Besides, this is Master Bruce's madness, and he knows he's going to do most of the heavy lifting. Luckily, Alfred is skilled with computers and mechanics, so he can be useful in many ways.

Oh, no question about it, Herr! No question about it! 'BATMAN' got it right in terms of the computer-terminal layout in the Cave. Although, I'd want the main-large computer marginally bigger than that, and slimmer, more aesthetically pleasing smaller-monitors to accompany it. In fact, while I certainly want a decently-fledged computer station in this movie, exactly as we have been disscussing (something 'Begins' was gleefully overlooking), I imagine the layout as being a mass of wires and overhanging monitors, and then for the second movie, we have a proffesionally laden computer-station with everything tucked away into it's positions nicely.

Exactly.

That all sounds great to me, good work . Dont forget, a nice, comfy, revolvable chair.

Well, not exactly. It will be cushioned, so it could be called "comfortable," but it's custom designed for the Batman (body-molded off Bruce Wayne wearing a thin, long coat and one of those weighted belts people use for power walking, obviously to fill in for the utility belt), shaped in a position of perfect posture. Perfect upright posture. Yeah, real comfy.

Obviously it will swivel, and yeah, it should be able to lean back. You never know when a little detail like that could save someone's life.

 

[Herr Logan]

My Ultra-Post, Part 1

I was imagining it in my mind as being:

• First act: Bruce's training interspliced with his childhood and Parent's murder.
• Second Act: Bruce returning to Gotham, his first failed night out in regular street-wear, his epiphany as the bat comes through the window conducting recon, intell, and building up his batcave and constructing his equipment and costume.
• Third Act: Batman's first night out. Ensuring 'Batman vs. Villain' plot, all the way up to the climax of the movie.

I just generalised more thats all, I beleive you and me are on the same path and mean the same thing. Your higher abundance of detail is what made it seem I was taking different approach, thats all.

Okay, so we're going with three. There is one big discrepancy between our paradigms here, though.

I'm pretty attached to the idea of that the second act can start with Bruce's first failed crime-fighting run, but that he chooses his new identity right after he gets home, and the Batman shows up on the streets very soon after that. My idea is that the Batman, in full garb, is present for a lot of the second act (at the very, very least 40% of the character's screen time), even though Bruce Wayne's public persona begins and solidifies here as well.
I just can't see how it could work if all of the fight scenes and most of the serious detective work is left for the third act. I fully endorse a 3-hour Batman movie (hell, with everything we're talking about, it would need to be), but I don't see how it can work if the Batman doesn't even show up in costume until the third act. I don't want this to be mostly origin. I want his pre-costume stuff to be over with by at the latest 1/3 of the way through the second act. This story may not cover a full year's time, but it's supposed to cover the events of several months.
When I say "not a full year," I mean from the moment of Bruce's secret homecoming forward, not the entire span of years shown in the entire story. The movie covers about two decades' time in total, and the bulk of the movie's running time shows events taking place in the present, within under a year's time. I also want all the time jumps to be marked, rather than left to speculation. White words on the screen will say "Bruce Wayne at age [6,8,14,20, etc.]" with each time shift in the narrative. The scene directly following Bruce Wayne's inspirational face-to-face encounter with one of the hundreds (or thousands) of the Wayne Estate's rent-free residents that live downstairs should be marked with by white words that slowly fade onto the screen "Batman, Year One." From here on out, every time jump will be marked by the number of the day the scene takes place, relative to the day (night, really) that Bruce Wayne was officially reborn as the Batman. I could go with "Day [1, 4, 14, 30, 60, 90, etc.]", or I could go with "Batman, Day [whatever day it is]. What I haven't decided on is when Day 1 officially occurs. Is this immediately when Bruce realizes he "will become a Bat," or is it when he's put together a costume and enough of an arsenal of less-than-lethal (LTL) tactical gear to step out and kick some superstitious and cowardly ass.

Here's another outline of how I see the stages in his life being recounted, each bullet point marking a specific age, with each phrase separated by semi-colons representing a theme(s) or event(s), played out in one or more scenes for each:

Earliest moment (relative to his life, not necessarily the order of scenes) is at age 6 years old—

• Falls into the bat cave and gets traumatized, is comforted by father as well as mother (I don't want Thomas Wayne to be like he was shown in 'The Man Who Falls, because that's way too cold, even for a guy as reserved as he was said to be by Alfred in recent comics)

Jump to age 8—

• Bruce gets jazzed about the Zorro movie showing, which could well open up a brief dialogue with his parents about how there are many kinds of heroes in the world (Thomas being a gifted surgeon who puts his wealth to good causes, Martha being a tenacious and influential social worker... but young Bruce should be the one to lead the conversation to spotlight what Mommy and Daddy for a living, as the Waynes are not the type to toot their own horn and they’ll try to be humble about it), although Bruce craves the action as well;
• Adult Waynes are murdered a mere block from the Monarch Theater; the police tell Alfred that murders are typically solved within the first couple of days or not at all, but they won't give up;
• Bruce overhears this and silently swears his solemn oath to avenge his parents and to insure, when he's ready, that no criminal will walk these streets without fear, no murder will go unsolved, and no child will lose their parents to senseless violence.

Jump forward to age 14—

• Bruce has been taking college courses at Gotham University (specific mentions to criminology, law, various physical sciences, etc.), owning every test and research paper that comes his way, coming home to spend hours each day studying college-level material on many subjects and training harder physically than any young athlete his age;
• Alfred and Leslie discuss their long-running concerns over his relentless pursuit of perfection, lack of friends, and the stress he's been putting on his young body for several years;
• While Leslie was okay with the gymnastics and even karate, she was strongly against Bruce taking up weightlifting through ages 9-12, and now that he's in his early teens and at little or no risk of stunting his growth, he's pumping iron with the dedication of an Olympic weight-lifter (not a body builder, as his body is very well-muscled, but not out of proportion or unwieldy... he is deliberately striving for a balance of strength and agility) and keeping to a diet designed to keep his body resilient and his mind sharp; all of the scenes in which young Bruce trains are supposed to come off as very creepy, and that this isn't normal or something to celebrate
• Leslie asks Alfred directly what he's been doing to help Bruce, and he tells her that he's done his best to connect with the boy on an emotional level, but since that didn't go very far he fell back on his army training to provide a usable but flexible framework for Bruce's endeavors, since Bruce wasn't going to "let it go" and was going to pursue his mission no matter what; Leslie is outraged that Alfred would enable Bruce in this madness, and Alfred tells her in his reserved but emphatic manner that he wholeheartedly believes that if Thomas and Martha Wayne were here to govern Bruce, they would not restrict his freedom and punish him for his dedication and hard work;
• Leslie says that if Thomas and Martha were here to govern Bruce, this potentially tragic (the literal meaning of tragic) state of being wouldn’t have occurred for Bruce; Alfred believes that the boy, who will not settle for less than perfection from himself, is going to do good works with his abilities when he’s ready; Leslie recognizes that Alfred truly loves Bruce like a son and if there was a reasonable way to deter the haunted youth, he would have used it, so the best thing he could have done short of literally forcing the boy to undergo intensive, institutional psychiatric therapy was to give him some direction and encourage discipline;
• Before his 15th birthday, Bruce becomes restless and claims he's read every book in the Mansion, squeezed every last bit of knowledge from every library in Gotham City, and every course at the college that he believes would help him (he’s audited several and written them off); while practicing fencing in the appropriate garb (and going at it hardcore, since Bruce is now better than his surrogate father), Alfred will ask him (purely for the sake of trying to keep Bruce living at home for as long as possible), how he’s sure that the classes he’s written off as useless are truly useless, and Bruce (without breathing hard, moving gracefully and quickly to catch Alfred off-guard and actually doing a few acrobatic maneuvers) will say, “You yourself have often said that my ambition, although officially undefined, seems somehow thoroughly organized by instinct. If I sit in on a class and don’t feel an ‘obsessive’ need to see it through to the end, doesn’t that say something?”; after Alfred loses the fencing match, smiling, admits Bruce is right but is both impressed and saddened when he truly realizes in that moment that Bruce is fully aware of himself and his abnormal behavior, and will not be deterred from his as-yet-undefined goals by anything Alfred is prepared to do;
• Bruce creates documents that falsely identify relatives living outside of Gotham that will take him in, leaving Bruce free to leave the country and Alfred’s care; Leslie can barely speak, she is so upset that Alfred would allow this illegal action, and Alfred tells her, showing anger for the very first time in the movie, that if he ever gets a positive response from the GCPD that says they have found so much as a suspect or faintest ghost of a real lead in the Wayne murders, he will be prepared and more than happy to give a damn about what the law requires of Bruce Wayne—Leslie, although heartbroken, chooses to bite her tongue and let her last encounter with Bruce before he leaves be a show of love instead of disappointment;
• Alfred bids young Bruce farewell at the airport, where Bruce is headed for Europe to study at various universities; he tells Bruce that he will be here waiting for him to return, and he says to him, “Do not get lost.,” obviously (to us, anyway) alluding to something more profound than geographical location.

This passage from Dark Knight FAQs is the a brief summary between the end of what I just outlined and what comes after, before he comes back. It mentions specific schools, which should be mentioned in the movie.

At age 14 he travelled to Europe, and spent time at Cambridge University, the Sorbonne in Paris, Berlin School of Science and a dozen other places. He spent time with the denizens of the street, learning less savoury skills. At age 20 he entered the FBI and stayed for six weeks before realizing that shuffling papers was no way to fight crime. He then travelled to the East to learn further skills.

 

[lujho]

Guys, I replied to Logan's PM, but I'll put what I wrote here:

Honestly, I think that curtain rod idea was needlessly complex.

All I think you need is a single central anchor point rather than 2 separated ones. Attach the cape securely to the suit at that point. It'll hang down in front when allowed to and stay back when you push it back - and even if it doesn't stay back all the time, you can just rig up a cape that does.

Since it's connected to the suit itself, you don't have to worry about it choking the wearer - honestly, it's almost exactly the same as the Begins one but with one central anchor point. So simple and no reason not to do it.

V in V for Vendetta had pretty much a fully-cloaking, centrally attaching "Batman cape" that didn't seem to give him too many problems - honsetly I don't understand how some people can think it's so prohibitively problematic.

Also, here's a Batsuit design (basically the same one I always do) which shows how the cape would look in each mode - one side has it hanging forward and the other back. As long as it's securely fastened to the suit (and I mean the foam-rubber undersuit, not just the outer neoprene) it should be fine.

 

[Herr Logan]

Guys, I replied to Logan's PM, but I'll put what I wrote here:

Honestly, I think that curtain rod idea was needlessly complex.

All I think you need is a single central anchor point rather than 2 separated ones. Attach the cape securely to the suit at that point. It'll hang down in front when allowed to and stay back when you push it back - and even if it doesn't stay back all the time, you can just rig up a cape that does.

Since it's connected to the suit itself, you don't have to worry about it choking the wearer - honestly, it's almost exactly the same as the Begins one but with one central anchor point. So simple and no reason not to do it.

V in V for Vendetta had pretty much a fully-cloaking, centrally attaching "Batman cape" that didn't seem to give him too many problems - honsetly I don't understand how some people can think it's so prohibitively problematic.

Also, here's a Batsuit design (basically the same one I always do) which shows how the cape would look in each mode - one side has it hanging forward and the other back. As long as it's securely fastened to the suit (and I mean the foam-rubber undersuit, not just the outer neoprene) it should be fine.

Thanks for the response, Lujho, and for the drawings and diagrams.

I hope it's okay if I make some comments regarding differences what you posted and the concept we've been discussing in this thread. Keep in mind, this isn't meant to be criticism of your contribution, and I do appreciate the thought and detail you put into those figures.

First of all, that cape looks great. I’d prefer it without a neck-piece that thick, though. I wouldn’t want to go with something like in ‘Batman Begins’.
That cowl is great, too. I would just make the nose less pointy and the back of the cowl more in line with the actual head underneath, sort of like how I’d want the neck.

The costume we've been discussing here does not have any obvious seams or panels on it. It wouldn't look like a cohesive prototype of any kind.
I like your idea of the bodysuit having a "skin texture." I'd been thinking that I want the outer layer of the bodysuit to look sort of ambiguously like it could be skin, possibly with the suggestion that the chest emblem could be a tattoo. Then again, you can see that the skin on his face isn’t dark gray, so I’m not sure if that’s a useful idea or not.

There would be sculpted armor, shaped like his muscles, between Bruce's actual flesh and the top layer, sort of like a custom-molded bullet-proof vest. The top layer should be smooth and conform to the contours of his musculature (in the case of the torso, conforming to armor that conforms to the contours musculature). Like I've said, I want this to look as faithful as possible.
The segmented look of the black parts on your drawing look pretty reconcilable with our concept, though.

I really like the look of that harness overall. Just a few thoughts on that:
I would prefer the cod-piece (if we must call it that) to be smooth and free of angular lines, and I’d have the clasps on the bottom edge black, but that’s a very good depiction of the trunks-harness.
I’m not sure if you intended there to be some armor on the hips, but that’s how I’d like it. It’s supposed to be protective pretty much all over, while at the same time flexible.’’
I like those mini-canisters strapped right into the harness and the smaller pouches. Again, I’d prefer the pouches to be black.

Anyway, I hope this didn’t come off as too critical. I really appreciate your input and artwork.

 

[Herr Logan]

Zaphod! Where in the sphincter of hell have you been??

Respond, dammit!

 

[Zev]

I was imagining it in my mind as being:

• First act: Bruce's training interspliced with his childhood and Parent's murder.
• Second Act: Bruce returning to Gotham, his first failed night out in regular street-wear, his epiphany as the bat comes through the window conducting recon, intell, and building up his batcave and constructing his equipment and costume.
• Third Act: Batman's first night out. Ensuring 'Batman vs. Villain' plot, all the way up to the climax of the movie.

I just generalised more thats all, I beleive you and me are on the same path and mean the same thing. Your higher abundance of detail is what made it seem I was taking different approach, thats all.

'Scuse me a moment, aspiring writer butting in. That's not how the three-act structure works. It goes something like this:

First Act: Introduces characters, problem/conflict created.

Second Act: Middle of the movie. Problem/conflict intensifies.

Third Act: Hero has no choice but to stand and fight. The climax. Balls-to-the-walls action time. Plus a denoucement to provide a sense of closure.

Basically, what you're talking about is Ang Lee's Hulk. Imagine T2 if the T-1000 didn't show up until the heroes showed up at Cyberdyne. You're going to have about three-fourths of the movie with no Batman, no villain, no plot... basically nothing more than a string of vignettes showing Bruce Wayne when people came to see Batman. While it might be of interest to the diehard fan, it probably won't make for a good Batman movie.

 

[Herr Logan]

'Scuse me a moment, aspiring writer butting in. That's not how the three-act structure works. It goes something like this:

First Act: Introduces characters, problem/conflict created.

Second Act: Middle of the movie. Problem/conflict intensifies.

Third Act: Hero has no choice but to stand and fight. The climax. Balls-to-the-walls action time. Plus a denoucement to provide a sense of closure.

Basically, what you're talking about is Ang Lee's Hulk. Imagine T2 if the T-1000 didn't show up until the heroes showed up at Cyberdyne. You're going to have about three-fourths of the movie with no Batman, no villain, no plot... basically nothing more than a string of vignettes showing Bruce Wayne when people came to see Batman. While it might be of interest to the diehard fan, it probably won't make for a good Batman movie.

Damn, Zev, go easy on my new protege.

You're absolutely right, though, and this is basically the point that I hope I got across earlier.

Hell, even a diehard fan shouldn't stand for a movie that barely features the Batman. Even 'Begins' wasn't good enough in that capacity. Yes, it was a good movie and I enjoyed it, but I'd be a hypocrite if I let it go at that.

What do you think, Zev, of having the Batman show up in full costume at the very latest about 1/5 or 1/4 of the way through the second act? This is taking into account that the movie would be about three hours long and that the first act would briefly cover most of Bruce's significant pre-Bat training and also place a focus on Bruce as a young teenager before he leaves on his globe-trotting journey.

 

[Cullen]

'Scuse me a moment, aspiring writer butting in. That's not how the three-act structure works. It goes something like this:

First Act: Introduces characters, problem/conflict created.

Second Act: Middle of the movie. Problem/conflict intensifies.

Third Act: Hero has no choice but to stand and fight. The climax. Balls-to-the-walls action time. Plus a denoucement to provide a sense of closure.

Basically, what you're talking about is Ang Lee's Hulk. Imagine T2 if the T-1000 didn't show up until the heroes showed up at Cyberdyne. You're going to have about three-fourths of the movie with no Batman, no villain, no plot... basically nothing more than a string of vignettes showing Bruce Wayne when people came to see Batman. While it might be of interest to the diehard fan, it probably won't make for a good Batman movie.

While I wouldn't have used "Hulk" as a negative example (I can't help what I like), Zev's right as rain. The outline you've given, Zaphod, abuses the audience's patience and that's something you shouldn't do. We came for Batman, and two acts without the title character is pushing it a touch. This isn't "Waiting for Godot" after all, this is a Super hero movie.

 

[Cullen]

Damn, Zev, go easy on my new protege.

Oh sure. Go easy on on the protege. But full steam ahead on poor little ole me, right?

You are a cruel, cruel person.

You're absolutely right, though, and this is basically the point that I hope I got across earlier.

Hell, even a diehard fan shouldn't stand for a movie that barely features the Batman. Even 'Begins' wasn't good enough in that capacity. Yes, it was a good movie and I enjoyed it, but I'd be a hypocrite if I let it go at that.

I wouldn't have said so... But y'know, considering B:TAS, you might have a point there.

What do you think, Zev, of having the Batman show up in full costume at the very latest about 1/5 or 1/4 of the way through the second act? This is taking into account that the movie would be about three hours long and that the first act would briefly cover most of Bruce's significant pre-Bat training and also place a focus on Bruce as a young teenager before he leaves on his globe-trotting journey.

Did you put up a Batman treatment and I missed it? Or am I suffering a Cull moment? (Both are oh so possible, especially since I'm focused on another novel right now.)

Just on this I would say "maybe," myself. Not the fraction of the act, as I sort of feel that's what they did in "Batman Begins" and it worked there. It's the three hours I'm tripping over. I'd do half that at most. This based on some people's reaction to "King Kong"'s length, as well as Hitchcock's maxium about the length of a movie and the length of the audience's bladder...

 

[Cullen]

Hey, I noticed the Bad Post icon finally. Enemies beware!

Seriously, though, why can't I narc on myself? Some of my posts have been down-right awful of late. Something must be done, I tell you.

This has been another attempt at humor by Cullen! Now you know why it's best left to the professionals...

 

[Herr Logan]

Oh sure. Go easy on on the protege. But full steam ahead on poor little ole me, right?

You are a cruel, cruel person.

Considering one of the things you said toward the end of your last post, I feel I'm justified in my cruelty towards poor, little ole you.

I wouldn't have said so... But y'know, considering B:TAS, you might have a point there.

Of course I have a point. Thank you for noticing.

Did you put up a Batman treatment and I missed it? Or am I suffering a Cull moment? (Both are oh so possible, especially since I'm focused on another novel right now.)

Well, sort of. I posted a lot of things about a Batman movie, sort of jumping around here and there. I believe I did post an outline of the first half of the first act, though. It should have bullet points.

Just on this I would say "maybe," myself. Not the fraction of the act, as I sort of feel that's what they did in "Batman Begins" and it worked there. It's the three hours I'm tripping over. I'd do half that at most. This based on some people's reaction to "King Kong"'s length, as well as Hitchcock's maxium about the length of a movie and the length of the audience's bladder...

"Half that at most." Half??
A one and a half hour Batman movie?!

You've gotta be out of your God damn mind. Seriously, Cullen, it's comments like these that make me wonder why I even let you live.

You don't spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a Batman movie and make it less than two hours. That's just ridiculous and it deliberately cheats the fans. Yes, "knowingly" means "willingly" in my book, and my book is Law.

How the hell could you ever tell a decent "Year One" Batman story in an hour and a half? That's just lazy. As for the audience's bladder, the point is to make the movie good enough so that they are willing to see it in the theater more than once, and they should keep track of when they had to run to the restroom during the first viewing so they can choose a different moment to do the same during the next one. It's not a big deal.

 

[Zev]

Damn, Zev, go easy on my new protege.

*Zev, seeing who has told him to "go easy" on someone, does a slow, John Landis glance-to-the-audience with an incredulous eyebrow raised.*

You're absolutely right, though, and this is basically the point that I hope I got across earlier.

Hell, even a diehard fan shouldn't stand for a movie that barely features the Batman. Even 'Begins' wasn't good enough in that capacity. Yes, it was a good movie and I enjoyed it, but I'd be a hypocrite if I let it go at that.

I sorta disagree with you there. Begins had a longer-than-usual first act, but it did a great job of keeping the tension and energy up, getting you all jazzed up for the inevitable Batman appearance with things like "Dude, that's gonna be Batman's cowl! Dude, that's gonna be Batman's cape! Dude, that's the Batcave!" etc. In contrast to, say, Hulk, which had a dream sequence in the middle of a flashback. Shut up, Ang Lee.

What do you think, Zev, of having the Batman show up in full costume at the very latest about 1/5 or 1/4 of the way through the second act? This is taking into account that the movie would be about three hours long and that the first act would briefly cover most of Bruce's significant pre-Bat training and also place a focus on Bruce as a young teenager before he leaves on his globe-trotting journey.

So, you're asking ME if you're writing too long?

*having already exhausted the John Landis look-at-the-camera trick, Zev says "SAY WHAAAA?" ala Gandhi from Clone High, which was a really funny show that shouldn't have been cancelled. "I'm a Kennedy, I'm not accustomed to tragedy!"*

Ahem. Well, the main thing is the journey to being Batman. You don't want to pad for the TPB. Most of the material you're talking about was added after Batman had been in action for years, but on screen it's not like people are Batmaned out.

So while Leslie being against Bruce taking up weight-lifting may be something you want to show, it'd probably work best in the context of a montage. Say, a five-second snippet of Leslie looking on uneasily as twelve-year-old Bruce lifts weights.

And even if you space out those narratives within the main story, you still have the problem of cutting away from the really interesting (we hope) story of Batman fighting the Penguin to see how, I don't know, Alfred bandaged Bruce Wayne's knee that one time. Otherwise known as "Lost Syndrome" (haha, a pop culture reference, I'm so wittay). Try to find the one scene that tells the audience everything you want to tell them without the ninty percent of other stuff you want them to "get." For instance, you have a lot of stuff on Alfred and Leslie talking about Bruce, which is (and I apologize for what might be perceived as a harsh tone):

1. Two old people talking (i.e., not the most interesting thing in the world).

2. You telling the audience in painstaking detail about how Bruce feels, how Alfred feels about Bruce, how Leslie feels about Bruce, etc. instead of showing us.

So if you instead condensed that into Leslie having it out with Alfred over what she perceives as his laissze-faire attitude towards his upbringing (which serves the additional function of adding a goodly bit of conflict to the scene, which is always nice), which is then ended when Bruce walks in and annouces his plans to falsify relatives.

That's just an example, but you see what I'm getting at.

 

[Zev]

As for the audience's bladder, the point is to make the movie good enough so that they are willing to see it in the theater more than once, and they should keep track of when they had to run to the restroom during the first viewing so they can choose a different moment to do the same during the next one. It's not a big deal.

Or have an intermission.

 

[Cullen]

Considering one of the things you said toward the end of your last post, I feel I'm justified in my cruelty towards poor, little ole you.

See, I knew I needed a Bad Post Icon on my stuff. This would have never happened if I could narc myself out to the mods.

Oh, the Humanity.

Of course I have a point. Thank you for noticing.

Well, sort of. I posted a lot of things about a Batman movie, sort of jumping around here and there. I believe I did post an outline of the first half of the first act, though. It should have bullet points.

I seemed to remember that.

"Half that at most." Half??
A one and a half hour Batman movie?!

Pretty much so, yeah

You've gotta be out of your God damn mind. Seriously, Cullen, it's comments like these that make me wonder why I even let you live.[/quote]Why do people keep saying that to me?

You don't spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a Batman movie and make it less than two hours. That's just ridiculous and it deliberately cheats the fans. Yes, "knowingly" means "willingly" in my book, and my book is Law.

Two hours is fine (and, on honest reflection probably the better time.) Three hours is pushing it.

I've seen Batman stuff that were less than 90 minutes that I didn't feel cheated by. "Mask of the Phantasm" and "Sub-zero", for example, are both 70 minutes. B:TAS episodes clocked in at 30 minutes a piece. While I doubt any of those cost in the hundreds of millions, not once did I feel cheated as a fan. Hell's teeth, the best of B:TAS is better than a lot of Hollywood garbage.

If the script is good enough, length and money don't matter.

How the hell could you ever tell a decent "Year One" Batman story in an hour and a half? That's just lazy.

Having never read "Year One", I couldn't tell you.

As for the audience's bladder, the point is to make the movie good enough so that they are willing to see it in the theater more than once, and they should keep track of when they had to run to the restroom during the first viewing so they can choose a different moment to do the same during the next one. It's not a big deal.

All I know is that was what Hitchcock said. He knew his stuff. Though I doubt he'd would have done a Batman film. A flaw in his character, to be sure.

 

[Herr Logan]

*Zev, seeing who has told him to "go easy" on someone, does a slow, John Landis glance-to-the-audience with an incredulous eyebrow raised.*

Heh!

I sorta disagree with you there. Begins had a longer-than-usual first act, but it did a great job of keeping the tension and energy up, getting you all jazzed up for the inevitable Batman appearance with things like "Dude, that's gonna be Batman's cowl! Dude, that's gonna be Batman's cape! Dude, that's the Batcave!" etc. In contrast to, say, Hulk, which had a dream sequence in the middle of a flashback. Shut up, Ang Lee.

I can't really disagree with you on the point that they kept us jazzed up. Still, they could have done more. It seemed horrifically tacked on and a worse example of "telling instead of showing" than I would ever put in a movie when Rachel tells Bruce that his real face is the one the criminals now fear (because he really needs someone to break that bit of news to him, rather than just point out their observaton). That was pathetic, and if they had done a better job with developing the character of the Batman, that wouldn't have been necessary. Truthfully, there was no other point in the movie where that fact was made clear, which is a failing.

So, you're asking ME if you're writing too long?

*having already exhausted the John Landis look-at-the-camera trick, Zev says "SAY WHAAAA?" ala Gandhi from Clone High, which was a really funny show that shouldn't have been cancelled. "I'm a Kennedy, I'm not accustomed to tragedy!"*

Oops.

Ahem. Well, the main thing is the journey to being Batman. You don't want to pad for the TPB. Most of the material you're talking about was added after Batman had been in action for years, but on screen it's not like people are Batmaned out.

So while Leslie being against Bruce taking up weight-lifting may be something you want to show, it'd probably work best in the context of a montage. Say, a five-second snippet of Leslie looking on uneasily as twelve-year-old Bruce lifts weights.

And even if you space out those narratives within the main story, you still have the problem of cutting away from the really interesting (we hope) story of Batman fighting the Penguin to see how, I don't know, Alfred bandaged Bruce Wayne's knee that one time. Otherwise known as "Lost Syndrome" (haha, a pop culture reference, I'm so wittay). Try to find the one scene that tells the audience everything you want to tell them without the ninty percent of other stuff you want them to "get." For instance, you have a lot of stuff on Alfred and Leslie talking about Bruce, which is (and I apologize for what might be perceived as a harsh tone):

1. Two old people talking (i.e., not the most interesting thing in the world).

2. You telling the audience in painstaking detail about how Bruce feels, how Alfred feels about Bruce, how Leslie feels about Bruce, etc. instead of showing us.

So if you instead condensed that into Leslie having it out with Alfred over what she perceives as his laissze-faire attitude towards his upbringing (which serves the additional function of adding a goodly bit of conflict to the scene, which is always nice), which is then ended when Bruce walks in and annouces his plans to falsify relatives.

That's just an example, but you see what I'm getting at.

I do indeed. Thanks for the input.

I definitely want to keep some of the expository dialogue between Alfred and Leslie, but a lot of brief, non-dialogue cuts could flash by in a montage in the meantime.

Or have an intermission.

That would be fine with me, if the movie theaters would agree to it.

 

[Herr Logan]

See, I knew I needed a Bad Post Icon on my stuff. This would have never happened if I could narc myself out to the mods.

Oh, the Humanity.

That still wouldn't be adequate punishment. Besides, this isn't the kind of infraction you should get banned over... it's the kind you should get beaten over.

I seemed to remember that.

Pretty much so, yeah

Then you fail.

Why do people keep saying that to me?

I don't know. Why do you keep saying inflammatory things?

Two hours is fine (and, on honest reflection probably the better time.) Three hours is pushing it.

I'd let it go at that if you'd said it outright, but you didn't. You said an hour and a half. That's a caning offense, boy.

I've seen Batman stuff that were less than 90 minutes that I didn't feel cheated by. "Mask of the Phantasm" and "Sub-zero", for example, are both 70 minutes. B:TAS episodes clocked in at 30 minutes a piece. While I doubt any of those cost in the hundreds of millions, not once did I feel cheated as a fan. Hell's teeth, the best of B:TAS is better than a lot of Hollywood garbage.

Don't use an animated TV show as an example. People expect cartoons to run half an hour. That doesn't mean it's okay to go to the trouble of making a movie that should be at the very, very least 2.5 hours and then just run it for 90 minutes. Yes, that show is better than most Hollywood garbage, but that's not an excuse to throw all creative ambition out the window and rush a half-written story.

Hell, I've been worrying that the content already discussed for this particular imaginary project was too much to fit into three hours without rushing things, but you think something worthy of the Batman could be done in half that time. Amazing.

As for 'Mask of the Phantasm,' I love that movie, but it still wasn't long enough. The truth is, they rushed that story towards the end. They should have fleshed it out more.

If the script is good enough, length and money don't matter.

If the script for a live action movie based on one of the entire world's most recognizable fiction icons is an hour and a half, then it's not a good script, period. It's a deliberate waste of storytelling potential and a deliberate way to cheat people who have the attention span for a longer story.

Having never read "Year One", I couldn't tell you.

That's not the point. Our movie concept is based on 'Year One,' but my point was that this is a re-start film that features the Batman's origin. That means you have to adequately show the origin and a length of time where the Batman proves himself in action. To do less is cowardice.

All I know is that was what Hitchcock said. He knew his stuff. Though I doubt he'd would have done a Batman film. A flaw in his character, to be sure.

Yeah, there sure are some mighty witty quotes from ol' Hitchcock on Wikipedia. Unfortunately, he's DEAD, which means he's no longer here to protect you!

Seriously, the human bladder can go for several hours without the need to relieve itself. Just don't drink anything right before or during the movie. If you still have to go, come back and watch the movie a second time, during the afternoon if money is a concern. I personally hate having to leave in the middle of a movie to answer the call of nature, but it's the lesser of two evils when compared with paying full price for half a Batman film just because the producers are catering to people's bladders instead of their intellect and imagination.