Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Hunter Rider]

Okay, I want some feedback from everybody here.


When we branch out into other forums with new threads, I'm going to post samples of posts-links from the original thread on each topic, categorized by the superhero(es) they address, so I have an idea of what is being discussed here and what isn't. Several of these categories have very few posts written on them and may or may not have a forum.
The ones without forums of their own who you vote as getting their own threads will stay in the same forum as this thread (Misc. Comics films).
I'm asking you guys to vote on which topics get their own new Safe Haven threads.

Here's where your input is needed--


These do not have their own forums:

• Captain America
• Iron Man

These do have their own forums:

• Hulk
• Superman

What should happen with these topics? Tell me true!



All the topics with an extremely low number of posts will be discussed in this thread, which will be the Miscellaneous Safe Haven, at least until there are enough posts to warrant a separate thread. They include the following and this isn't up for voting (unless you swear on your children's graves that you will discuss them at length in their new threads):

• Black Panther
• Silver Surfer
• Teen Titans

These will definitely have their own threads:

• Batman
• Daredevil
• Fantastic Four
• Spider-Man

We definitely need a Superman Haven Herr,in superworld I'm thinking
Hulk and Cap may as well stay in here for now IMO and I'd wait a few weeks to see if the promised Iron Man forum is erected before making a desicion on that one

 

[Herr Logan]

We definitely need a Superman Haven Herr,in superworld I'm thinking
Hulk and Cap may as well stay in here for now IMO and I'd wait a few weeks to see if the promised Iron Man forum is erected before making a desicion on that one

Thanks a bunch, Hunter.

I'll do it that way for the time being, unless people have other ideas and want to speak up.
Feel free to elaborate on your Iron Man movie ideas here, Hunter. I can link the posts from here and paste them in a new Iron Man Safe Haven if one is warranted later.

 

[Herr Logan]

Okay, I believe the last post I made about my ideal X-Men movie series that had any real detail in it was lost before I could post it. I'm gonna recap some of the stuff I've said before, rewrite what I can remember of that lost post and throw in anything that occurs to me in the meantime.

For right now, I'll say who's on the team and what they can do. Most of you already know this stuff, but I edited the information to show what is pertinent to the movie.

Also, here are the costumes-- and I don't want to hear any crap about the training uniforms unless you've got a better idea that has nothing to do with "realism." These are school uniforms that just happen to be used in a public battle or two because of urgent circumstances. Once they realize they won't be able to simply finish their training before being called into battle, they switch to something a bit more individualistic. And also, in this fictional world (as in all my Marvel universe movie concepts), superheroes are reality, so there's no argument against that. Also, the over-the-pants trunks would be repelling harnesses.


'Uncanny X-Men'

The X-Men:

Charles Xavier, aka Professor X

Powers: Indomitable willpower makes him the world's strongest telepathic mind whom possesses vast psionic powers, including telepathy; the ability to induce in others mental illusions, temporary mental or physical paralysis, and loss of specific memories or total amnesia; the projection of "mental bolts" to stun or render a person unconscious; astral projection; and the ability to sense other superhuman mutants within a small radius.*

Abilities/advantages: Genius-level intellect; leading authority on genetics, mutation, and psionic powers, considerable expertise in other life sciences, highly talented in devising equipment for utilizing and enhancing psionic powers; charismatic, with advanced leadership and teaching skills; very wealthy; has allies across the globe and in the U.S. government.

Weaknesses: Confined to wheelchair.

Scott Summers, codenamed Cyclops

Powers: Possesses the mutant ability to project a beam of concussive, ruby-colored force from his eyes.*

Abilities: Can narrow/widen, focus, concentrate and ricochet beams when using tactical visor; possesses an intuitive gift of enhanced spacial perception which allows him to fire optic blasts at targets with pinpoint accuracy and calculate angles for ricocheting the beams; strong tactical and leadership skills.

Weaknesses: Cannot "turn off" power and requires a ruby-quartz barrier to restrain the energy beams; emotionally repressed, socially awkward when not in tactical or strategic preparation situations.

Training Uniform:

Individual Uniform (adopted about half-way to two third of the way through the first movie):

Robert Drake, codenamed Iceman

Powers: Generates subzero freezing energies that cool and condense the moisture in the air into super-strong ice structures; rapidly lowers his body temperature to transform into an organic ice form with enhanced strength, and durability.**

Abilities/advantages: Almost completely immune to the effects of cold on the human body; creativity allows for aptitude with wide range of ice structures; can propel himself on a continuous slide/bridge of ice.*

Weaknesses: Somewhat immature relative to his teammates; sometimes reacts emotionally and impulsively instead of logically in particularly stressful situations.

Uniform:
He'd have the same standard training uniform as the others, but in ice form, he'd look like this:

I don't know what his individual costume should be. Either way, he looks about the same when iced up. I know there's a better picture of him somewhere, but at the moment I'm on a computer that won't let me right-click on the internet browser (stupid campus computers).

Henry McCoy, codenamed Beast

Powers/Features: Unusually large hands and feet, superhuman agility, strength, speed and durability.

Abilities/advantages: Supernally dextrous with both hands and feet (despite the unwieldy size of each), ambidextrous, can write and manipulate (ex. tie knots) with feet, grip small cracks in walls to climb; superhuman agility aids in advanced gymnastic and fighting prowess; genius-level intellect, broad range of practical and scholarly knowledge, ability to multi-task in physical and mental capacities simultaneously, proficiency with computers and advanced technology including invention.

Weaknesses: Pacifist tendencies leads him to "pull his punches" in battle, sometimes to his detriment.

Training Uniform:
Standard school uniform, same as Cyclops' (without the visor).

Individual Uniform (adopted about half-way to two third of the way through the first movie):

Warren Worthington III, codenamed Angel

Powers/Features: Aerodynamic physiology gives him peak human strength, speed, aerial agility, endurance, reflexes, superhuman eyesight and hearing, a hollow bone structure, zero body fat, and large superhumanly strong feathered wings extending from his shoulder blades that enable him to fly.**

Abilities/advantages: Can create enough lift to enable him to carry aloft at least 500 pounds in addition to his own weight; enhanced endurance allows for several hours of non-stop flight; can reach a height of 10,000 feet with little effort; possesses a special membrane in his respiratory system enabling him to extract oxygen from the air at high velocities or altitudes.*

Weaknesses: Arrogance.

Training Uniform:
Standard school uniform, same as Cyclops' (without the visor).

Individual Uniform (adopted about half-way to two third of the way through the first movie):

The mask would actually cover this face, though, and I'd probably leave the halo chest insignia off. In both costumes, I'd add goggles to protect his eyes. In the comics, he's said to possess has a protective membrane on his eyes that protect against wind and dust particles while flying at high speeds, but I prefer to give him goggles on top of that.

Jean Grey, codenamed Marvel Girl

Powers: Possesses telekinetic abilities enabling her to levitate and manipulate living beings and inanimate objects psionically; telepathic powers enabling her to read minds, project her thoughts into the minds of others, and stun the minds of opponents with telepathic "mental bolts."

Abilities/advantages: She's... uh... very attractive?

Weaknesses: Telepathic abilities are limited at this point; psychic sensitivity makes her vulnerable to outside thoughts and emotions distracting her and overpowering her in extreme situations with surrounding others panicking.

Training Uniform:

The hair might be pulled into a ponytail, or maybe not.

Individual Uniform (adopted about half-way to two third of the way through the first movie):

This is just roughly the design I'd have her use. The low-cut neck may not be there, for example.


Next up, the Brotherhood of Mutants!


* Excerpted or paraphrased from www.marveldirectory.com
** Excerpted or paraphrased from www.uncannyxmen.net

 

[Herr Logan]

I just realized that I didn't respond to this yet. Sorry about that.

I think Cap during WWII should definitely have a double identity, as it makes Captain America more iconic. For the public, he isn't a particular American, but he embodies America's ideals.

I still wouldn't put much emphasis on the activities of Steve Rogers out of his superhero outfit, but it's a valid decision for you or anyone else who is inclined towards that.

Steve Rogers was described as posing as a clumsy, bumbling private at the camp I mentioned before. Would you play it this way?

I think also that ideally, the first movie should not end up with him being frozen, but with a more upbeat ending, and with still a lot to go through. Captain America should triumph. Then in the end of the second movie, he could get frozen, after a difficult fight with Zemo, who is trying to save the war for his side. The first movie would end in 1942, as I said, and I would have the second one start in 1943ish and end up in 1945.

Fair enough. Like I said before, it's just an issue of personal preference, and I don't much like war movies. Then again, a Captain America story wouldn't have to play out like most war movies. I wouldn't spend a lot of time with Cap on the battlefield among the other troops (but obviously there has to be at least one scene like that). As a special operative, Cap could spend a good deal of screentime in majestic supervillain strongholds, such as German castles where the Red Skull, Baron Zemo and other classic Nazi villains could be found doing their evil, behind-the-scenes deeds.

Keep in mind that if I ended a movie with Cap frozen in an iceberg, I'd still make it clear to the audience that there would be a sequel coming, and that Cap would be back in action in all his star-spangled glory. People should leave the theaters wanting more, impatient for the next film to come out and show him thawed out and ready for action.

And maybe I would give Zemo a cameo in the first movie, where he gets his mask permanently. (Adhesive X is a bit implausible, true, but there are other ways to stuck a mask to a face. What if parts of the fabrics got melt with Zemo's skin after receiving drops of acid, sulfuric or a fictitious kind?). Then I would have two other movies set in rpesent time, one with Cap beign discovered and fighting Zemo's descendents, and one fighting Red Skull, who survived WWII by regerating his body with Captain America's DNA (see my previous post). Maybe RS could be back as early as the third film.

Cool stuff. Thanks for posting.

 

[Herr Logan]

The Brotherhood of Mutants:

Eric "Magnus" Lensherr, aka Magneto

Powers/features: Ability to control magnetism, can shape and manipulate magnetic fields that exist naturally or artificially; complete control over ferrous metals, but also controls other matter; can levitate self; can, to an unknown degree, project or manipulate any form of energy that is related to magnetism, including heat, infrared radiation, light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma-rays, and x-rays; can use his magnetic powers to increase his physical strength to superhuman levels; resistance to telepathic influence; limited ability to enter the Astral plane*; looks younger than he is due to mutation.

Abilities/advantages: Charismatic, with advanced leadership and strategic skills; highly intelligent; proficient in several sciences including biology, physics and various technology.

Weaknesses: Arrogant, occasionally short-tempered; psychologically scarred by childhood trauma (imprisonment in Nazi death camps, family killed) and predisposed to antisocial behavior.

Uniform:

In the movie it would be this basic design with much, much darker tones for both the red and purple.

Mortimer Toynbee, aka the Toad

Powers/features: Possesses superhuman strength, primarily in his lower torso, can lift (press) approximately one ton with his arms, and leg-press approximately three tons under optimal conditions; superhuman agility; extraordinarily flexible spine allows for hunched posture without physical damage.*

Abilities/advantages: Advanced fighting skills; proficient in climbing and acrobatics.

Weaknesses: Low self-esteem, depression; consistently behaves subserviently to the point of obsequiousness regarding powerful authority figures as a result of years of social rejection and persecution; susceptible to antisocial behavior.

Uniform:


Pietro Maximoff, codenamed Quicksilver

Powers/features: Possesses the superhuman capacity to think and move at great speeds (up to 175 miles per hour); body is adaptive to hyper-speed running conditions, with superhuman endurance, enhanced joints, tendons, bones, skin, etc.; ability to breathe while moving at extremely high speeds; upper body can lift (press) approximately 1000 pounds, can leg press approximately one ton under optimal conditions. *

Abilities/advantages: Super-fast mental processing; martial arts skills.

Weaknesses: Impulsive, perpetually angry, and overprotective of his sister (Scarlet Witch).

Uniform:

Something similar to this. He'd also have goggles, even though his official bio says his eyes have extra protection on their own.

Wanda Maximoff, aka the Scarlet Witch

Powers: Possesses power to affect probability fields, creates “hex-sphere” --finite pocket of reality-disrupting quasi-psionic force, which causes disturbance in the molecular-level probability field surrounding the target, causing unlikely phenomena to occur.

Abilities/advantages: Martial arts skills.

Weaknesses: Powers are unreliable; requires line of sight of her target and her hands free to use powers.

Uniform:

Red fishnets, baby!!


Jason Wyngarde, codenamed Mastermind

Powers: Power of illusion casting, can psionically cause other people to see, hear, touch, smell, and/or taste things which to not actually exist to the degree that even a target’s knowledge of his power will not allow them to ignore/overcome the effects of the illusion. *

Abilities/advantages: Creative

Weaknesses: Cannot single out one person present in a group to see his illusions without artificial aids*; arrogant and predisposed to overstepping his boundaries when dealing with other people (which is really only a problem if there are other mutants involved); is not immune to psionic attacks.

Outfit:

The coloring would be black, and he'd probably have an overcoat with that hanging-flap thing instead of just the suit jacket.


Angelo Unuscione, aka Unus the Untouchable

Powers: Repulsor energy acts as a solid force field or repels all forms of matter and energy from his body, can be used defensively or offensively. **

Abilities/advantages: Wrestling and martial arts training.

Weaknesses: Force field and repelling ability can be a liability if Unus loses control of it-- potentially lethal if force field is irreversibly "turned on," since he cannot eat in that condition.

Uniform:

It would be a much darker shade of red, and there wouldn't be a mennorah (or however it's spelled) on his trunks.

Again, this is just recap for those heathens that don't know this stuff, and also edited for those that do to the information that may be pertinent to the movie.

Up next, actual plot sketches!




* Excerpted or paraphrased from www.marveldirectory.com
** Excerpted or paraphrased from www.uncannyxmen.net

 

[The Batman]

How about an X-Men haven?

 

[Herr Logan]

How about an X-Men haven?

How about an X-Men Haven, a Spider-Man Haven, a Batman Haven and a Superman Haven? I think we're pretty much ready to launch today, thanks to Mister J's help and the love and support of you fine people.

I guess you've been spending a of time one the X-Men forums lately. You gonna help keep things under control, Caped Crusader?

I'll be sending PMs to a good chunk of posters who have or should contribute to any of the new threads with the links, but they can also just be found in the various "World" forums (ex. X-World) and this Misc. Comics Forum (for Daredevil). Other topics not mentioned will continue to be discussed in this very thread, which is now designated as the Miscellaneous Safe Haven.

It is time! *maniacal laughter*

 

[Herr Logan]

Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More
From
Miscellaneous Superhero Movies
​

This thread is open to the discussion of all superhero properties not listed in the Thread List below, as I have branched out into several property-specific ones so we can better keep track of people’s posts and have more linear and organized discussions about each superhero property.

Also listed below are several posts links from the original Haven that pertain to the subject of this particular thread. It is not a complete list, and anyone who wants to link or re-post something they thought was interesting is welcome to do so.
I recommend reading these posts before posting your own ideas, but it’s not a requirement.
I ask that while people can respectfully point it out, they not act harshly when a user makes a new post that contains material that is similar to what has already been posted in either the original Haven or this particular thread.

This thread is dedicated to the brainstorming and discussion of ideas pertaining to how faithful and optimally entertaining superhero movie adaptations could have, or still could, be made. This is also a place for analyzing what has come before and how that could be a basis for ideal film adaptations of the various superhero properties we know and love, more closely based on the source material.

I think certain movies already made could be taken as a basis for fully faithful adaptations, as in a large portion of a particular movie could be left mostly the way it is with specific alterations to what held that movie back from being better. Even some of the obvious changes to the various mythos could be used to enhance the story or execution of an adaptation that could still be considered faithful by discriminating, analytical and demanding fans. If there hasn’t been a movie made of the superhero(es) discussed in this thread, then ignore the last two sentences.
I want to discuss the theoretical possibilities present in both the original source material and the existing adaptations, and how those could be put into new productions that completely nail both the "spirit" and the essential details of these mythologies. Plots, script, character traits, costumes, even casting decisions are open for discussion. This is ultimately for the purpose of creative discussions for their own sake, although I would be delighted if it inspired high-quality, faithful fan scripts beings written (Dragon has written some excellent Spider-Man screenplays, for example).

All other non-comics media are valid topics as well (live action and animated TV series, video games, etc.). Again, it's fine to use ideas from existing products (casting, plot elements, dialogue, props/effects, etc.) as a basis or part of an idea for a "new" product if the new product would be significantly more faithful, even though it would be implausible for a rebooted franchise (a la "Batman Begins") to include these same elements in reality; reality is mostly irrelevant here.
It is unlikely that these ideas will lead to a better movie being made; not unless one of the thread participants ends up being a big-time producer or someone important in the business reads this thread. This is for us, the fans. We spend a good deal of time on the Hype, and it really doesn't accomplish much in terms of tangible results anyway. That's okay, since the point of this forum, presumably, is for the purpose of imparting information, critiquing superhero products, and discussing ideas. This is for people who are intelligent, imaginative, and passionate and have ideas to share conforming to the stated topic.

Ground Rules:

Nobody is allowed to use terms like “fanboy,” “nerd,” “purist,” “hater,” or anything like that in a derogatory manner toward other posters or comic fans in general in this thread. The word "whining" and the like-- unless used with regard to a character in a movie, comic book or TV show (ex. “Spider-Man was quite the whiner&#8221—is forbidden, as is “nitpicking,” and anything else intended to bully anyone into complacency and acceptance of existing products. The phrase “impossible standards” and anything to the effect of “movies and comics are different mediums, so there have to be changes,” “the general audience will not accept the same things comics fans will,” and “people want to see realism,” if not accompanied by a massive amount of faithful and potentially marketable ideas meant to compensate or work around these alleged “facts,” are also strictly forbidden.

If you believe that the movie adaptations already made are perfect or good enough and do not need revision or analysis, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread, so be on your way and don’t intrude where you have nothing to offer. Do not waste our time with conformist platitudes. Do not come in here and defend film decisions that are being considered flaws by contributing posters, unless you have another aspect in mind that does need changing. We’re here to talk amongst ourselves, and anyone who disagrees with the spirit of this thread is in no way obligated to read any of the content herein or reply. Any of the behavior I described above that occurs here is trolling, pure and simple. This thread isn’t about argument and hostility. The only personal criticism that should occur is that which is directed toward the producers (meaning anyone involved in the production in any way) of preexisting superhero products, and even that should be kept to a minimum, since everyone who truly belongs in this thread is assumed to have some level of disagreement with said producers, sometimes to the point of resentment. We need not spend excessive time on blaming them for their failings, but don’t hold back your true feelings on those screw-ups either. Disagreement between posters is fine. Just keep it civil. Or else.

Also, it is okay to suggest minor deviations from the source material for this topic, as long as the majority of the ideas you put forth—or are simply replying to and agree with—are consistent with the source material and/or significantly more faithful than previous existing adaptations.

Again, it’s perfectly okay to disagree with a person’s criticism of a movie if you have another one to share, but do not post remarks about an existing or real-life upcoming film if you have no complaints about any of these productions.
I hope the guidelines are clear. Everyone is welcome to contribute or comment, as long as they follow the rules and don’t make any criticisms that not relevant to the thread. You either belong here or you don’t, and that choice is up to you , so have respect enough to let the environment herein reflect the title of this thread. Anyone who violates the rules or causes trouble will be promptly reported.
Thank you for your cooperation.

It is recommended, but not strictly required, that you supply a unique title at the beginning of each new post, especially when it isn’t a reply to another’s post. This will help in identifying the topic of each new post at a glance and finding specific posts with the Hype’s search engine. You can resend older posts in the appropriate thread and add titles to them.

Examples:

• “Hunter Rider’s Iron Man concept #1”
• “Herr Logan’s ‘Batman: Dark Knight Detective’ video game,”
• “Everyman’s Captain America movie series concept #1”
• “Zev’s Daredevil TV Show concept”
• “Logan & Zaphod’s Batman movie series concept.”

Welcome to the Safe Haven. Enjoy!


Here are a few posts from the original thread to check out. Make sure to check the quoted portions, as several of these posts are two-for-one deals (which is why so many of mine are here, because I almost always reply to people’s posts and frequently use quotes from other posts). Also, most of these links lead to single post pages, but if you open those pages and click on the thread title link in the upper right corner, it will take you to that post in the full thread, where you can see what came before and afterward. If I’ve confused you and you need help navigating the links, just ask.



All right, we've got several new Safe Haven threads up. This thread will heretofore be designated as a Miscellaneous Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More. Everything that doesn't pertain to the subject listed below should be discussed in here.

BATMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

X-MEN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

SPIDER-MAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

SUPERMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

FANTASTIC FOUR: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More




Here are some examples of what kind of discussion belongs in this particular thread from here on out, as well as reference material for people who are inclined to post about certain topics:

MISCELLANEOUS SAFE HAVEN POSTS

General Philosophy Haven Posts
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6249949&postcount=9
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6250396&postcount=11
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6255136&postcount=21
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...16#post7525116
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...30#post7530630
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...48#post7535748
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...92#post7730392
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...84#post7731584
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...67#post7771667
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...66#post7879366

Black Panther
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...50#post7176550

Deathstroke
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...96#post7944596

Hulk Haven Posts
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6261904&postcount=43

Silver Surfer
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6359582&postcount=186
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6600230&postcount=282
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6600998&postcount=284

Teen Titans
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...09#post7432809



"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

--George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"

 

[Everyman]

"I just realized that I didn't respond to this yet. Sorry about that."

It's all right, it's a big forum after all.

"I still wouldn't put much emphasis on the activities of Steve Rogers out of his superhero outfit, but it's a valid decision for you or anyone else who is inclined towards that."

I wouldn't put much emphasis on it, but for many reasons (see below), I think his dual identity is perfectly justifiable in a WWII setting.

"Steve Rogers was described as posing as a clumsy, bumbling private at the camp I mentioned before. Would you play it this way?"

I wouldn't play him as a clumsy private no, this would be a bit too cliché. Steve Rogers ust an average and anonymous private in an anonymous unit, easy to move around the map when necessary. Not only Cap's dual identity would help reinforce the myth of his character, but it would be practical for strategic reasons: Nazi spies would have more difficulties noticing the whereabouts and various travels of private Steve Rogers, one of many US soldiers, than of a well known figure such as Captain America. Basically, Captain America's real identity can be a perfect cover.

"Fair enough. Like I said before, it's just an issue of personal preference, and I don't much like war movies. Then again, a Captain America story wouldn't have to play out like most war movies. I wouldn't spend a lot of time with Cap on the battlefield among the other troops (but obviously there has to be at least one scene like that). As a special operative, Cap could spend a good deal of screentime in majestic supervillain strongholds, such as German castles where the Red Skull, Baron Zemo and other classic Nazi villains could be found doing their evil, behind-the-scenes deeds.

Keep in mind that if I ended a movie with Cap frozen in an iceberg, I'd still make it clear to the audience that there would be a sequel coming, and that Cap would be back in action in all his star-spangled glory. People should leave the theaters wanting more, impatient for the next film to come out and show him thawed out and ready for action."

I have to say I am fascinated with anything regarding WWII, but I think Cap should "survive" his first movie for other reasons. First because I want an upbeat ending, where the ideals he represents triumphs. In 1942 (when I would have the movie end), things are evolving well for the Allies, I think it would be a perfect time to have Cap defeat Red Skull, seemingly definitively. That would be a great contrast with the second movie, where to succeed he has to sacrifice himself, and then the definitive triumphs is denied to him, Cap will not see the fall of Nazi germany. But he will not see the grittier side of this victory: the discovery of Dachau, the A Bombs, etc. This contrast between the two movies would make the end of the second much more gripping. I also think that having Cap go through all of WWII in one movie would be a bit rushed (let alone in 15 minutes, like some people who wants to focus it on the man out of time angle thinks). There is a lot of ground to cover, and two movies IMO are juuuuust enough for that. Let's not forget that we are trying first to make plausible that superheroes exist in a precise time of history, we have to mix real history with pure fantasy. IMO it has never been done correctly, and this would be such a great opportunity. Besides, most of Bond's classic ennemies are former Nazis. Cap's antagonism, if they are to be developed, have to be developed in their right time period.

 

[Mister J]

OK, I finally managed to dig up my 'Brids of Prey' revamp from Q's thread. I thought of placing this in the Batman Haven (since it's technically the Batman universe) If it's better suited there, I'll repost .At any rate...


First off, it would have been set solely in the modern continuity. The show was flawed from the start because it made too much of an amalgamation between Earth-1 and Earth-2. The lineup would have been Oracle, Huntress (Helena Bertinelli) and the REAL Black Canary (not that nonsensical version they offered us). The show would have dealt with the neophyte stages of their partnership and how the three strong personalities learned to work together and be a collective force.

Secondly, Batman would not have fled the city. This is the goddamn Batman! He's not going to run out on his city and watch from afar, regardless of what happens. The show wouldn't rely on constant appearances by the Dark Knight, but he would have an occasional reference (and maybe even an appearance). Birds of Prey leaned too much on Batman without having him actually factor into the story; Let the show stand on its own feet. The crux of the early episodes would have dealt with gaining insight on the three leads and then moved on to their interaction as they help make Gotham safe.

I liked the way they portrayed Barbara and a good deal of how her origin was handled. I'd keep The Killing Joke reference and would have it serve as an anchor to give the show some good ol' Gotham grittiness (reflective of how dangerous this line of work is). However, the Joker wouldn't have known she was Batgirl, it just raises too many questions. Instead (and like in the books), he would have simply struck out at her to get at Commissioner Gordon. Some attention would be given to the dynamic between the two Gordons; one is the head of the GCPD, the other is part of Gotham's self-appointed police force. Barbara is Batman's former protégé, who is still dealing with making contributions to crime-fighting, but in an all new way. Not much change there.

Huntress is the daughter of a Mafioso, struggling to balance her insatiable desire for revenge with walking the path of the hero. There is underlying tension with the character as she is frustrated by not being able to use deadly force against those who she feel warrant it. There would even be a story arc (inspired by the comics) where Huntress is on assignment, investigating the mob when she learns the truth of her parentage. That in itself is very compelling. The Huntress wants to gain the respect of her teammates, while still maintaining her independence. Under no circumstances is Helena a metahuman, nor is she the patient of Dr. Harleen Quinzel. Those characterizations never really resonated with me. I'd like to incoporate a number of ideas from the Huntress: Cry For Blood mini.

Black Canary knows who her mother is (and was) from the start. She would be proud of continuing that heritage. Canary would be portrayed as strong and confident, yet naive at times as she wouldn't have personally experienced true violence in her life like her teammates (I'm omitting The Longbow Hunters arc). She would be dealing with living up to her mother's legacy, as well as her breakup with Green Arrow. Both of these factors play a huge role in her decision to working with BoP. Additionally, she has a unique viewpoint as the only member with an actual superhuman ability. It's not even worth comparing her to the Dinah Lance as seen in the series. That incarnation pained me to no end.

The show would move from the all-too popular Villain of the Week theme and would be based on solving pieces of a puzzle. I'm not sure who would be the big villain pulling all the strings, but it would not be Harley Quinn (though I love the character). Black Mask could work given his ties to the underworld. The same goes for Maroni, Falcone or Thorne. This could also ease a transition to an appearance by Batman, as the plot revealed itself on a grand scale. There would still be some weekly baddies, but most of the action would be a along the lines of stopping drug rings, protection rackets and smuggling activities. Some of these arcs would span multiple weeks as everything would not be wrapped up in 60 minutes.

I envision the occasional appearance (or brief flashback) to Wildcat, Nightwing, and Green Arrow. Those three characters have great history with BoP members and offer strong opportunities to expand the characters. It would be fun to see Barbara's reaction once she gets the scoop on Nightwing's nocturnal activities with Huntress. Particularly, how that affects the relevant relationships. Eventually, I'd have Batman in the mix. I wouldn't want to overdo the cameos, as the show would be squarely focused on the three superheroines. Notable appearances should mean something other than fanboy eye candy. A good cameo not only helps a primary character fulfill her obvious function to fight crime, but also brings about internal revelations and personal development. In a perfect world, I'd like references to both, The Question and Catwoman. Concerning the latter, possibly a story dealing with her vandalizing and pilfering the holdings of varied nefarious corporations. Of course, she would have a hidden altruistic purpose behind it.

My concept for much of this assumes that the series would last for more than the 13 episodes it actually got. Hopefully, some of these changes would ensure that.

 

[Herr Logan]

OK, I finally managed to dig up my 'Brids of Prey' revamp from Q's thread. I thought of placing this in the Batman Haven (since it's technically the Batman universe) If it's better suited there, I'll repost .At any rate...


First off, it would have been set solely in the modern continuity. The show was flawed from the start because it made too much of an amalgamation between Earth-1 and Earth-2. The lineup would have been Oracle, Huntress (Helena Bertinelli) and the REAL Black Canary (not that nonsensical version they offered us). The show would have dealt with the neophyte stages of their partnership and how the three strong personalities learned to work together and be a collective force.

Secondly, Batman would not have fled the city. This is the goddamn Batman! He's not going to run out on his city and watch from afar, regardless of what happens. The show wouldn't rely on constant appearances by the Dark Knight, but he would have an occasional reference (and maybe even an appearance). Birds of Prey leaned too much on Batman without having him actually factor into the story; Let the show stand on its own feet. The crux of the early episodes would have dealt with gaining insight on the three leads and then moved on to their interaction as they help make Gotham safe.

I liked the way they portrayed Barbara and a good deal of how her origin was handled. I'd keep The Killing Joke reference and would have it serve as an anchor to give the show some good ol' Gotham grittiness (reflective of how dangerous this line of work is). However, the Joker wouldn't have known she was Batgirl, it just raises too many questions. Instead (and like in the books), he would have simply struck out at her to get at Commissioner Gordon. Some attention would be given to the dynamic between the two Gordons; one is the head of the GCPD, the other is part of Gotham's self-appointed police force. Barbara is Batman's former protégé, who is still dealing with making contributions to crime-fighting, but in an all new way. Not much change there.

Huntress is the daughter of a Mafioso, struggling to balance her insatiable desire for revenge with walking the path of the hero. There is underlying tension with the character as she is frustrated by not being able to use deadly force against those who she feel warrant it. There would even be a story arc (inspired by the comics) where Huntress is on assignment, investigating the mob when she learns the truth of her parentage. That in itself is very compelling. The Huntress wants to gain the respect of her teammates, while still maintaining her independence. Under no circumstances is Helena a metahuman, nor is she the patient of Dr. Harleen Quinzel. Those characterizations never really resonated with me. I'd like to incoporate a number of ideas from the Huntress: Cry For Blood mini.

Black Canary knows who her mother is (and was) from the start. She would be proud of continuing that heritage. Canary would be portrayed as strong and confident, yet naive at times as she wouldn't have personally experienced true violence in her life like her teammates (I'm omitting The Longbow Hunters arc). She would be dealing with living up to her mother's legacy, as well as her breakup with Green Arrow. Both of these factors play a huge role in her decision to working with BoP. Additionally, she has a unique viewpoint as the only member with an actual superhuman ability. It's not even worth comparing her to the Dinah Lance as seen in the series. That incarnation pained me to no end.

The show would move from the all-too popular Villain of the Week theme and would be based on solving pieces of a puzzle. I'm not sure who would be the big villain pulling all the strings, but it would not be Harley Quinn (though I love the character). Black Mask could work given his ties to the underworld. The same goes for Maroni, Falcone or Thorne. This could also ease a transition to an appearance by Batman, as the plot revealed itself on a grand scale. There would still be some weekly baddies, but most of the action would be a along the lines of stopping drug rings, protection rackets and smuggling activities. Some of these arcs would span multiple weeks as everything would not be wrapped up in 60 minutes.

I envision the occasional appearance (or brief flashback) to Wildcat, Nightwing, and Green Arrow. Those three characters have great history with BoP members and offer strong opportunities to expand the characters. It would be fun to see Barbara's reaction once she gets the scoop on Nightwing's nocturnal activities with Huntress. Particularly, how that affects the relevant relationships. Eventually, I'd have Batman in the mix. I wouldn't want to overdo the cameos, as the show would be squarely focused on the three superheroines. Notable appearances should mean something other than fanboy eye candy. A good cameo not only helps a primary character fulfill her obvious function to fight crime, but also brings about internal revelations and personal development. In a perfect world, I'd like references to both, The Question and Catwoman. Concerning the latter, possibly a story dealing with her vandalizing and pilfering the holdings of varied nefarious corporations. Of course, she would have a hidden altruistic purpose behind it.

My concept for much of this assumes that the series would last for more than the 13 episodes it actually got. Hopefully, some of these changes would ensure that.

I don't know much about the comics 'Birds of Prey,' other than who the three lead characters are, so I don't get most of the references to BoP story arcs, but I like this a lot.
I saw a few episodes of the actual show; it was disgusting. I did know that their version of the Huntress was from Pre-Crisis and that the Post-Crisis one was the daughter of a mob family and had a penchant for using deadly force, which put her on the outs with most of Gotham's vigilante community. Also that she slept with Nightwing at least once and that he's "destined" to be with Barbara Gordon. Also, I know Black Canary isn't a telepath or whatever, and has a sonic vocal projection ability and has a taste for rich (or formerly rich, I forget), extremely politically left-leaning archers.

I'd love to see these characters star in a real crime drama series. It could even retain a noirish tone if it's set in Gotham City, but also plenty of exposure to high-tech detection and coordination (Oracle), superhuman combat (Black Canary) and heavy martial arts vigilantism (Huntress). That would be really cool. Would it have some deranged criminals either directly from or in the same vein as the Batman's rogue's gallery in addition to organized crime and street crimes?

Thanks for posting, J.

 

[Zev]

I'd kinda see Birds of Prey more as a weird melange of 24, the last season of Enterprise, Lost (or rather, Battlestar Galactica. More on that in a minute), and Moonlighting. Two-to-three episode arcs tying into a larger season arc. For instance, the series would start with Barbara and Dinah not having any face-to-face contact (and Dinah not knowing who Oracle is) and have them meet in a Hunt for Oracle type situation. That'd make for a hell of a cliffhanger. Season finale, Big Bad invades the Clocktower and kidnaps Oracle. Next season premiere, Black Canary rescues her and they meet up for the first time.

24: Much like CTU being a counterterrorism unit, the Birds of Prey are an "anti-crime" unit. Very frantic, very action-oriented, as close to real-time as you can get. The emphasis isn't on soap opera "who's sleeping with who" (although there is some of that), but on fighting various threats that crop up. No long, drawn-out "I frickin' love you, man!" "I frickin' love you back!" scenes. Just a significant glance or a hug or maybe a quiet conversation while driving from destination to destination.

Enterprise: Like I said, the two-to-three-part arcs. That way we can avoid the "freak/monster/supervillain of the week" problem as well as avoid 24's forced season arcs (oh, we thought Mr. X was the villain, but Mr. Y was the true mastermind! And he just happens to have another evil plot set for the same day!). Intersperse with character-building "turbolift" episodes between arcs where we spend time with a supporting character or just experiment with the formula a little bit.

Battlestar Galactica: Much like the "Helo on Caprica" and "Life on Galactica" plots, Dinah and Barbara would basically be two different shows interacting, in the old A-plot; B-plot fashion. None of this "we all live in the same apartment, let's share a shower" stuff (well, okay, maybe the shower sharing).

Lost: The "cast of tens" thing, with us spending a day in the life. Much like Veronica Mars, Buffy, or Battlestar Galactica, there'd be an array of supporting characters to keep things interesting. Let's list a few:

Ted Kord: Gadget guy and best friend of Barbara. Comic relief.

Commissioner Akins: Alright, bare with me for a moment. We'll consider this hypothetical Birds of Prey TV series to be perpetually One Year Later (again, think BSG) from widely accepted canon (be it Batman Begins, Toonverse, or whatever the viewer brings to the table. Kinda like Superman Returns). Exactly what has happened to Batman and Gordon and the like is a mystery for down the road, but Gordon is persona non grata (there's heat between Akins and Barbara over this) and Batman is rarely if ever seen. Akins has a no-vigilante policy that the BoP break every time they operate (they don't go on patrol, preferring instead to foil high-profile criminals and major crimes).

Batman: He's gone into one of his "this is my town!" moods (let's have the characters make some veiled references to Jason Todd and leave it at that) and imposed a no-other-capes-but-me rule on Gotham. For now, he's either unaware of the BoP or still figuring out what to do with him. At the end of the pilot, we find that he's keeping tabs on them in one way or another.

Dick Grayson: Police officer. I know, I know, he's supposed to be Nightwing and in Bludhaven, but work with me here, alright? Besides, we can always make him Nightwing down the road (can you say "stealth pilot," boys and girls?). An overlapping element between the worlds of Dinah and Barbara, he's constantly on-but-one-step-behind Dinah's trail and helping with Barbara's physical rehab (just so we can have an excuse for the pretty people to be sweaty and in close proximity to each other). In addition to the "will they or won't they?", there's the constant danger of Dick figuring out that Barbara is involved with these vigilantes he's trying to stop and the love triangle that develops between him, Helena, and Barbara. Dick used to be Robin, but now that Jason's dead (not that that will last for more than a few seasons) and his girlfriend's a paralegic, he's kinda down on the whole superhero concept.

Huntress: Reluctant ally of Dinah who eventually becomes a full-fledged cast member to shake things up. Everything Mister J said applies here. Think Gunn's arc from Angel, only instead of a muscular black guy, it's a hot babe. So really, that's an improvement. If Barbara is the sensible, level-headed one; then hero Dinah is at the center of the spectrum and Helena is all the way at the other end. Reckless, bratty, violent, and promiscuous. I won't come right out and say she's the Faith to Dinah's Buffy, but that's pretty much all that needs to not be said.

Roy Harper: Basically Dinah's Ted Kord and kinda-sorta love interest (because, let's be honest, Ollie's an annoying, cheating commie). He and Dick are best friends so there might be a "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein Are Dead" type standalone episode for a change of pace. Dinah occasionally babysits for him. Roy works for the Department of Extranormal Operations and thus serves as sort of a pipeline for the girls into the government. This will inevitably lead to conflict in the future, as Lex Luthor is the president (let's reference that in the pilot episode for a nice little throwaway bit that'll come back to haunt the audience). Also, he's in on the fact that Barbara is Oracle and tends to run interference between her and Dick, which again is a situation just ripe for drama.

While Barbara handles the technical end of things, Dinah and Helena end up being partners more often than not. While they've got a whole Murtaugh and Riggs buddy movie going on, there's some amount of sexual tension between Dinah and Barbara.

What?

Look, if we can have Lex Luthor checking out Clark Kent's package every thirty seconds in Smallville, I can have some lesbian subtext. It's in the comics too!

 

[Mister J]

I don't know much about the comics 'Birds of Prey,' other than who the three lead characters are, so I don't get most of the references to BoP story arcs, but I like this a lot.
I saw a few episodes of the actual show; it was disgusting. I did know that their version of the Huntress was from Pre-Crisis and that the Post-Crisis one was the daughter of a mob family and had a penchant for using deadly force, which put her on the outs with most of Gotham's vigilante community. Also that she slept with Nightwing at least once and that he's "destined" to be with Barbara Gordon. Also, I know Black Canary isn't a telepath or whatever, and has a sonic vocal projection ability and has a taste for rich (or formerly rich, I forget), extremely politically left-leaning archers.

I'd love to see these characters star in a real crime drama series. It could even retain a noirish tone if it's set in Gotham City, but also plenty of exposure to high-tech detection and coordination (Oracle), superhuman combat (Black Canary) and heavy martial arts vigilantism (Huntress). That would be really cool. Would it have some deranged criminals either directly from or in the same vein as the Batman's rogue's gallery in addition to organized crime and street crimes?

Thanks for posting, J.

I'd like the Birds to take on a mixture of both, common (and deranged) criminals and few members of Batman's rogues gallery. I had originally thought of mob bosses (maybe even Penguin to an extended degree) pulling the strings on the underlying activity. At any rate, a mixture of baddies would be in order.

You're right about the dynamic between the three lead characters. There's a brain (Oracle), one who prefers physical confrontations (Huntress) and one gifted with a superhuman ability (Black Canary). That seperation alone leads to many storytelling possibilities (and the producers/writers screwed it all to hell ). That idea had some real potential and it was wasted by vacuous execution.

Funny thing: I didn't know I actually cared this much about a Birds of Prey idea until this idea came about.

 

[Herr Logan]

I'd like the Birds to take on a mixture of both, common (and deranged) criminals and few members of Batman's rogues gallery. I had originally thought of mob bosses (maybe even Penguin to an extended degree) pulling the strings on the underlying activity. At any rate, a mixture of baddies would be in order.

(Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier.)

Sounds like a good way to go.

You're right about the dynamic between the three lead characters. There's a brain (Oracle), one who prefers physical confrontations (Huntress) and one gifted with a superhuman ability (Black Canary). That seperation alone leads to many storytelling possibilities (and the producers/writers screwed it all to hell ). That idea had some real potential and it was wasted by vacuous execution.

The more I try to visualize it, the more I think this really could be a kick-ass show. They'd need to really step up with the Huntress' gear, though. Barbara would have to have a pretty sweet set-up, too. Maybe a big 3-D holographic display like they have on 'Bones' (which is completely ridiculous in that instance, since there's no way the FBI would ever use something like that for the purposes of reconstructing a crime scene), maybe?
Some people used to watch shows like 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' just for the fight scenes (not me... I watched for the witty dialogue... and the fighting), so if the combat scenes were on par with that, that would be sweet.

Black Canary is also a hand-to-hand fighter in addition to a metahuman, right? And she wheres those sweet-ass fishnet stockings, right? Or is that Zatanna?

Funny thing: I didn't know I actually cared this much about a Birds of Prey idea until this idea came about.

Isn't it weird how that happens? You just get your imagination started up and it starts showin' you a thing or two. Gotta love it!

Great stuff, J. Thanks for posting.

 

[Herr Logan]

I'd kinda see Birds of Prey more as a weird melange of 24...

You just think everything can be likened to '24,' don't you?

...the last season of Enterprise, Lost (or rather, Battlestar Galactica. More on that in a minute), and Moonlighting. Two-to-three episode arcs tying into a larger season arc. For instance, the series would start with Barbara and Dinah not having any face-to-face contact (and Dinah not knowing who Oracle is) and have them meet in a Hunt for Oracle type situation. That'd make for a hell of a cliffhanger. Season finale, Big Bad invades the Clocktower and kidnaps Oracle. Next season premiere, Black Canary rescues her and they meet up for the first time.

It's sort of like 'Charlie's Angels,' isn't it? Working the physical end of a tactical operation while taking orders from someone you hear but never see?

24: Much like CTU being a counterterrorism unit, the Birds of Prey are an "anti-crime" unit. Very frantic, very action-oriented, as close to real-time as you can get. The emphasis isn't on soap opera "who's sleeping with who" (although there is some of that), but on fighting various threats that crop up. No long, drawn-out "I frickin' love you, man!" "I frickin' love you back!" scenes. Just a significant glance or a hug or maybe a quiet conversation while driving from destination to destination.

Enterprise: Like I said, the two-to-three-part arcs. That way we can avoid the "freak/monster/supervillain of the week" problem as well as avoid 24's forced season arcs (oh, we thought Mr. X was the villain, but Mr. Y was the true mastermind! And he just happens to have another evil plot set for the same day!). Intersperse with character-building "turbolift" episodes between arcs where we spend time with a supporting character or just experiment with the formula a little bit.

Battlestar Galactica: Much like the "Helo on Caprica" and "Life on Galactica" plots, Dinah and Barbara would basically be two different shows interacting, in the old A-plot; B-plot fashion. None of this "we all live in the same apartment, let's share a shower" stuff (well, okay, maybe the shower sharing).

Just because we don't want mushy, schmaltzy storylines doesn't mean the girls can't share, right?

Lost: The "cast of tens" thing, with us spending a day in the life. Much like Veronica Mars, Buffy, or Battlestar Galactica, there'd be an array of supporting characters to keep things interesting. Let's list a few:

Ted Kord: Gadget guy and best friend of Barbara. Comic relief.

Commissioner Akins: Alright, bare with me for a moment. We'll consider this hypothetical Birds of Prey TV series to be perpetually One Year Later (again, think BSG) from widely accepted canon (be it Batman Begins, Toonverse, or whatever the viewer brings to the table. Kinda like Superman Returns). Exactly what has happened to Batman and Gordon and the like is a mystery for down the road, but Gordon is persona non grata (there's heat between Akins and Barbara over this) and Batman is rarely if ever seen. Akins has a no-vigilante policy that the BoP break every time they operate (they don't go on patrol, preferring instead to foil high-profile criminals and major crimes).

Batman: He's gone into one of his "this is my town!" moods (let's have the characters make some veiled references to Jason Todd and leave it at that) and imposed a no-other-capes-but-me rule on Gotham. For now, he's either unaware of the BoP or still figuring out what to do with him. At the end of the pilot, we find that he's keeping tabs on them in one way or another.

It is completely and entirely implausible that the Batman wouldn't know the BoP are operating in Gotham. You know it, I know it, the American comics-reading public knows it.
He could pretend he's ignoring it and that he's got better things to do, but it could never, ever be true that he didn't know about a possible murderer and a metahuman vigilante in his city. The Batman knows about every "cape" in Gotham, even if those "capes" don't know it.

Dick Grayson: Police officer. I know, I know, he's supposed to be Nightwing and in Bludhaven, but work with me here, alright? Besides, we can always make him Nightwing down the road (can you say "stealth pilot," boys and girls?). An overlapping element between the worlds of Dinah and Barbara, he's constantly on-but-one-step-behind Dinah's trail and helping with Barbara's physical rehab (just so we can have an excuse for the pretty people to be sweaty and in close proximity to each other). In addition to the "will they or won't they?", there's the constant danger of Dick figuring out that Barbara is involved with these vigilantes he's trying to stop and the love triangle that develops between him, Helena, and Barbara. Dick used to be Robin, but now that Jason's dead (not that that will last for more than a few seasons) and his girlfriend's a paralegic, he's kinda down on the whole superhero concept.

Huntress: Reluctant ally of Dinah who eventually becomes a full-fledged cast member to shake things up. Everything Mister J said applies here. Think Gunn's arc from Angel, only instead of a muscular black guy, it's a hot babe. So really, that's an improvement. If Barbara is the sensible, level-headed one; then hero Dinah is at the center of the spectrum and Helena is all the way at the other end. Reckless, bratty, violent, and promiscuous. I won't come right out and say she's the Faith to Dinah's Buffy, but that's pretty much all that needs to not be said.

From what I know about how the BoP comic started out, the Huntress wasn't an official affiliate of Oracle and Black Canary, and I know that Barbara Gordon didn't like Huntress (I'm not sure if she knew about Dick and Helena, but she knew Helena had killed or would kill and she knew the identity of the first new Batgirl in 'No Man's Land').
If that's true, then I would prefer Huntress be a "guest star" for a good portion of the first season and then become a primary cast member. That oughtta foster some fake suspence ("Will she join up or not?") That's basically what you're saying, right? I'm down with that.

I'm not, however, down with the "promiscuous" part. Is that from the comics or is that just you being your dirty-minded self again?
Sleeping with one legendary vigilante doesn't equal promiscuous. Again, I don't know much about this in terms of the comics, but I never heard about Helena Bertinella being a skank.

Roy Harper: Basically Dinah's Ted Kord and kinda-sorta love interest (because, let's be honest, Ollie's an annoying, cheating commie). He and Dick are best friends so there might be a "Rosencrantz and Guildenstein Are Dead" type standalone episode for a change of pace. Dinah occasionally babysits for him. Roy works for the Department of Extranormal Operations and thus serves as sort of a pipeline for the girls into the government. This will inevitably lead to conflict in the future, as Lex Luthor is the president (let's reference that in the pilot episode for a nice little throwaway bit that'll come back to haunt the audience). Also, he's in on the fact that Barbara is Oracle and tends to run interference between her and Dick, which again is a situation just ripe for drama.

While Barbara handles the technical end of things, Dinah and Helena end up being partners more often than not. While they've got a whole Murtaugh and Riggs buddy movie going on, there's some amount of sexual tension between Dinah and Barbara.

What?

Look, if we can have Lex Luthor checking out Clark Kent's package every thirty seconds in Smallville, I can have some lesbian subtext. It's in the comics too!

That's our Zev!

 

[Zev]

You just think everything can be likened to '24,' don't you?

No, I believe everything can be likened to Batman. In case you were wondering, David Palmer is Commissioner Gordon.

It's sort of like 'Charlie's Angels,' isn't it? Working the physical end of a tactical operation while taking orders from someone you hear but never see?

I figure it's best to get the inevitable "good morning, Charlie!" joke out of the way right off the bat.

Just because we don't want mushy, schmaltzy storylines doesn't mean the girls can't share, right?

Maybe something where they're talking about politics or whatever, only instead of doing it over drinks, they're doing it when they're about to take on the mob.

It is completely and entirely implausible that the Batman wouldn't know the BoP are operating in Gotham. You know it, I know it, the American comics-reading public knows it.
He could pretend he's ignoring it and that he's got better things to do, but it could never, ever be true that he didn't know about a possible murderer and a metahuman vigilante in his city. The Batman knows about every "cape" in Gotham, even if those "capes" don't know it.

As I believe I made clear, by the end of the pilot it's shown that Batman does know about them... they just don't know it yet.

From what I know about how the BoP comic started out, the Huntress wasn't an official affiliate of Oracle and Black Canary, and I know that Barbara Gordon didn't like Huntress (I'm not sure if she knew about Dick and Helena, but she knew Helena had killed or would kill and she knew the identity of the first new Batgirl in 'No Man's Land').
If that's true, then I would prefer Huntress be a "guest star" for a good portion of the first season and then become a primary cast member. That oughtta foster some fake suspence ("Will she join up or not?") That's basically what you're saying, right? I'm down with that.

Yeah, about.

I'm not, however, down with the "promiscuous" part. Is that from the comics or is that just you being your dirty-minded self again?
Sleeping with one legendary vigilante doesn't equal promiscuous. Again, I don't know much about this in terms of the comics, but I never heard about Helena Bertinella being a skank.

Not so much a skank as a female stud, the woman equivalent of a womanizer. Basically, Helena's the sexy one, Barbara's the sensible librarian one, and Dinah's somewhere in the middle, just trying to keep things from exploding when Helena wants to jump right in and shoot something and Barbara wants to gather some more intelligence first.

That's our Zev!

Fine, so I'm the David E. Kelley of the board. But you're the John Milius. Only replace militaristic paranoia with loyalty to the comics.

 

[Herr Logan]

No, I believe everything can be likened to Batman. In case you were wondering, David Palmer is Commissioner Gordon.

I don't know who that is.

I figure it's best to get the inevitable "good morning, Charlie!" joke out of the way right off the bat.

As long as it's tasteful.

As I believe I made clear, by the end of the pilot it's shown that Batman does know about them... they just don't know it yet.

I was talking about the "for now" part. Just sayin', is all.

Not so much a skank as a female stud, the woman equivalent of a womanizer. Basically, Helena's the sexy one, Barbara's the sensible librarian one, and Dinah's somewhere in the middle, just trying to keep things from exploding when Helena wants to jump right in and shoot something and Barbara wants to gather some more intelligence first.

Hey, I frown on that kind of behavior in men as well. I'm like Daniel Craig , the new James Bond, in that way.

Fine, so I'm the David E. Kelley of the board. But you're the John Milius. Only replace militaristic paranoia with loyalty to the comics.

Again, I don't know who that is.

I also don't fully understand the David E. Kelley reference. You mean the fact that Kelley's shows are all very similar (with the legal stuff)?


Didn't mean to come off as overly critical before. I was just kidding for the most part.

Now who is this Milius person and how is he so amazing that you would liken me to him??

Nevermind, I looked him up. I resent that remark, as Milium is a strong opponent of gun control laws, and I'm very much in favor of them. There ought to be a law where I alone control all guns. Then you'd all know your place in the world...

 

[Zev]

Nevermind, I looked him up. I resent that remark, as Milium is a strong opponent of gun control laws, and I'm very much in favor of them. There ought to be a law where I alone control all guns. Then you'd all know your place in the world...

Not in politics, but basically in... I don't know, I guess you'd call it something akin to mindset. His attitude towards Hollywood suits and such reminded me of you.

 

[Herr Logan]

Not in politics, but basically in... I don't know, I guess you'd call it something akin to mindset. His attitude towards Hollywood suits and such reminded me of you.

I'll take that as a... compliment.


Explain the David E. Kelly thing. Is it because he only knows how to do one kind of show (chock full o' lawyer stuff, even if the show isn't about lawyers)?

 

[Zev]

I'd always heard that David E. Kelley had a thing for lesbians. I would've said Joe Estahaus, to make the joke clearer, but you couldn't pay me to identify with him.

Also, you should probably check out Five... errr, Ten-Minute Spider-Man: The Other. It manages to tackle a lot of the problems in the comics industry today while managing to take these increasingly off-the-rails tangents to the point where its satire reaches the point of Voltaire. As you can see, I have no shortage of self-confidence.

 

[Herr Logan]

I'd always heard that David E. Kelley had a thing for lesbians. I would've said Joe Estahaus, to make the joke clearer, but you couldn't pay me to identify with him.

Well of course David E. Kelley has a thing for lesbians! Besides up-tight, oppressive nutcases, who doesn't? Well, maybe heterosexual women.

Also, you should probably check out Five... errr, Ten-Minute Spider-Man: The Other. It manages to tackle a lot of the problems in the comics industry today while managing to take these increasingly off-the-rails tangents to the point where its satire reaches the point of Voltaire. As you can see, I have no shortage of self-confidence.

I've begun reading it, and I am pleased. I haven't read much Voltaire lately, so I'll just smile and nod. And also secretly resent you for upstaging my own pomposity with yours.

 

[Herr Logan]

Anouncement:

I've just launched the Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More from FANTASTIC FOUR.


Visit! Post! Keep it faithful!

 

[Herr Logan]

In case anyone wants a good argument to use against people who automatically and thoughtlessly shoot down the idea of using a more faithful superhero costume than filmmakers are likely to use, read this post.

It's more or less air-tight, except for the fact that value judgements on these kinds of things are completely subjective. However, If an anti-source material studio apologist states a value judgement as if it has concrete value, then my argument is completely air-tight.

I'm proud of it because it's probably the first time I put that concept together in cogent words that didn't go on for pages and pages of sprawling, tangential text. I guess the secret to relatively succinct and logical posts for me is to be pissed off and succumbing to the effects of Tylenol PM. Weird...

 

[Mister J]

(Sorry I didn't respond to this earlier.)

Sounds like a good way to go.

The more I try to visualize it, the more I think this really could be a kick-ass show. They'd need to really step up with the Huntress' gear, though. Barbara would have to have a pretty sweet set-up, too. Maybe a big 3-D holographic display like they have on 'Bones' (which is completely ridiculous in that instance, since there's no way the FBI would ever use something like that for the purposes of reconstructing a crime scene), maybe?
Some people used to watch shows like 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' just for the fight scenes (not me... I watched for the witty dialogue... and the fighting), so if the combat scenes were on par with that, that would be sweet.

Huntress would definitely need some upgrades. The show was able to skimp on that by making her all meta.
Bring forth ye Kevlar, projectiles and crossbows!

If I remember correctly (and I know I do), Oracle did use a 3-D holographic imager in contacting her associates. There's no reason that kind of technology couldn't extend to a logistic/strategic setup. Babs would certainly have some impressive hi-tech ware in the crusade.

Black Canary is also a hand-to-hand fighter in addition to a metahuman, right? And she wheres those sweet-ass fishnet stockings, right? Or is that Zatanna?

Canary's one of the top martial artists in DC and you're right on both counts. Dinah and Zatanna have the fishnet thing going on. Of course, Zee usually accessorizes with a top hat and some hocus pocus stemming from backward spoken incantations.

Isn't it weird how that happens? You just get your imagination started up and it starts showin' you a thing or two. Gotta love it!

Great stuff, J. Thanks for posting.

Damn imagination has a mind of its own. Wait, I'm sure that's somehow redundant.

Lastly, in addition to his splendid ideas on the BoP revamp, Zev made some allusions to Voltaire. Might I suggest some supplementary reading? Perhaps, Nietzsche and Foucault.

My, how we've changed here on Walton's Mountain.

 

[Herr Logan]

Huntress would definitely need some upgrades. The show was able to skimp on that by making her all meta.
Bring forth ye Kevlar, projectiles and crossbows!

Yeah, that's right!

It'd be skimpy Kevlar, though, right?

If I remember correctly (and I know I do), Oracle did use a 3-D holographic imager in contacting her associates. There's no reason that kind of technology couldn't extend to a logistic/strategic setup. Babs would certainly have some impressive hi-tech ware in the crusade.

Yeah, I figured she did.
I know the Batman has that, at least according to the artwork in 'Hush.' Oracle should definitely use that in her clock tower mini-cave.

Canary's one of the top martial artists in DC and you're right on both counts. Dinah and Zatanna have the fishnet thing going on. Of course, Zee usually accessorizes with a top hat and some hocus pocus stemming from backward spoken incantations.

Mmm... fishnets...

Damn imagination has a mind of its own. Wait, I'm sure that somehow redundant.

Heh!

Lastly, in addition to his splendid ideas on the BoP revamp, Zev made some allusions to Voltaire. Might I suggest some supplementary reading? Perhaps, Nietzsche and Foucault.

My, how we've changed here on Walton's Mountain.

I haven't read any of this stuff. Maybe next semester.