Season 6, Episode 10 "The Winds of Winter" Discussion Thread

[Matt]

The North is the army. The point of winning that battle was to win control of the North, and there is plenty of people left in the North. Plus you just can't attack Winterfell in the winter.

That army was already pretty much decimated by Robb's failed rebellion and then war with Stannis. I mean, the North has been engaged in three wars in the period of the past four seasons. Their army is virtually nothing but rabble at this point.

Its true that you cannot attack Winterfell in the winter, but Baelish doesn't need to attack. He has Winterfell. Under the guise of an ally, he has essentially conquered it. Holding Winterfell is almost entirely dependent on the Knights of the Vale.

And they are not reliant to Littlefinger, they are reliant on Robin. Especially once they kill Littlefinger.

Robin is an irrational actor and Petyr is the only person he seems to like. If they kill him, he will be ordering the Knights to make Jon and Sansa take a walk out of the Moon Door.

 

[Kane52630]

Jon did not desert the Night's Watch.

He found a corporate loophole in his contract.

 

[Matt]

Jon did not desert the Night's Watch.

That's the perception. Its why Ramsay offered to pardon him last night. It doesn't matter if he died and came back. Technically he did not break his oath. Most won't see it that way. After all, what is more believable? That Jon abandoned the Night's Watch to seize power over Winterfell, using an army of Wildlings or that Jon died and was resurrected and the only people who can vouch for it are said Wildlings and a traitor's right hand man (Davos). From a perception stand point, Jon is an oath breaker.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That army was already pretty much decimated by Robb's failed rebellion and then war with Stannis. I mean, the North has been engaged in three wars in the period of the past four seasons. Their army is virtually nothing but rabble at this point.

Its true that you cannot attack Winterfell in the winter, but Baelish doesn't need to attack. He has Winterfell. Under the guise of an ally, he has essentially conquered it. Holding Winterfell is almost entirely dependent on the Knights of the Vale.



Robin is an irrational actor and Petyr is the only person he seems to like. If they kill him, he will be ordering the Knights to make Jon and Sansa take a walk out of the Moon Door.

No it isn't. You can hold Winterfell with nothing. That is the point of Winterfell. You need people on the inside.

You seem to think Sansa would make it obvious if she kills Littlefinger. You know the guy that tossed her aunt through the Moon Door, and she saved him? Sansa has learned from Littlefinger. She will surpass him and kill him by using his desire for her.

Manipulating Robin is not hard, and Sansa's qualities have been built up in his eyes by Littlefinger.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That's the perception. Its why Ramsay offered to pardon him last night. It doesn't matter if he died and came back. Technically he did not break his oath. Most won't see it that way. After all, what is more believable? That Jon abandoned the Night's Watch to seize power over Winterfell, using an army of Wildlings or that Jon died and was resurrected and the only people who can vouch for it are said Wildlings and a traitor's right hand man (Davos). From a perception stand point, Jon is an oath breaker.

Ramsay did that because he was taunting Jon and trying to get him to give in.

They emphasized the stories about Jon, what he is. Even Ramsay has heard them. He just took Winterfell back, his legend grows. When people see the White Walkers, you think they aren't going to buy the stories?

Also the Night's Watch can vouch for it. They were all there.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Predication for Sansa. She will accept Littlefinger's hand, marry him, kill him, and then she will own the Vale.

 

[Matt]

No it isn't. You can hold Winterfell with nothing. That is the point of Winterfell. You need people on the inside.

You seem to think Sansa would make it obvious if she kills Littlefinger. You know the guy that tossed her aunt through the Moon Door, and she saved him? Sansa has learned from Littlefinger. She will surpass him and kill him by using his desire for her.

Manipulating Robin is not hard, and Sansa's qualities have been built up in his eyes by Littlefinger.

But the Knights of the Vale are already inside. Its not like Jon is going to say "hey, you wait outside while we set up defenses." An entire army basically saved Jon's. Do you think they are just chilling outside of Winterfell? Plus, Winterfell's gate is gone thanks to Wun Wun. A siege wouldn't be that hard without a gate.

As to Littlefinger, you're not giving him nearly enough credit.

Plus, what reason does Sansa really have to kill him? Look at it from her perspective:

Pro:

He saved her from the Lannisters

He was her "only friend in Kings Landing" (her words)

He brought his army and virtually handed her Winterfell back (just as he promised he would when he saved her from the Lannisters).

Con:

He gave her to Ramsay (whom he genuinely did not seem to know much about, which Sansa seems to believe, otherwise she could've killed him with Brienne)

He betrayed Ned, which neither Sansa nor Jon are aware of. As far as they are aware, the Lannisters controlled Janos and Janos betrayed Ned. The fact that Littlefinger bought Janos for the Lannisters isn't well known. In fact, the only people left who can speak as to Littlefinger's direct betrayal ("I did warn you not to trust me") are Varys and Cersei...neither of whom Sansa has any reason to believe.

So even assuming that Sansa was capable of killing Baelish...why would she? He has been her greatest ally.

 

[BestGirl]

I certainly hope not. Aside from the fact that Sansa has no claim to the Vale and the lords of the Vale would have no reason to listen to her, it would stink of hypocrisy. The entire arc of the Stark family has revolved around reclaiming their home. It would be insanely hypocritical for them to turn around and steal someone else's, much as the Bolton's stole theirs.

Yeah. If there's one thing that's been true throughout the series it's that the Starks have been pretty dumb. They get by based on their reputation for honorable behavior. Killing the man who just saved their - and their army's - lives would be very alienating. Jon and Sansa have to be careful how they play this.

 

[Matt]

Ramsay did that because he was taunting Jon and trying to get him to give in.

They emphasized the stories about Jon, what he is. Even Ramsay has heard them. He just took Winterfell back, his legend grows. When people see the White Walkers, you think they aren't going to buy the stories?

Also the Night's Watch can vouch for it. They were all there.

Once people see the White Walkers it won't matter what they believe.

He was taunting him, but he isn't wrong. He is legendary because he is Ned Stark's son and Lord Commander of the Wall, both of which mean a lot in the North but no where else. None of it changes the fact that he, in essence, is a deserter and that is the story that will be used.

As to the Night's Watch vouching for it, they aren't the most credible lot in Westeros. The Night's Watch is made up primarily of bastards, thieves, and rapists. The ones who can vouch for it are the ones who weren't executed by the Lord Commander when he took over Castle Black with his Wildling army. That's convenient that they would vouch.

Predication for Sansa. She will accept Littlefinger's hand, marry him, kill him, and then she will own the Vale.

I don't know why folks are so up on that. Sansa has no claim to the Vale. Robin was certainly no fan of her's. Even if she marries Littlefinger, she has no claim. Littlefinger has no claim either. Littlefinger is Robin's stepfather, which is why he can exert some power right now. But his power is contingent on Robin. It does not flow through his Tully bloodline but rather his Arryn bloodline which neither Sansa nor Baelish have access to. The Lords of the Vale are not going to bow to Sansa. Jon Arryn has nephews who would be the next in line and the logical choice to foster Robin, in the case of Baelish's death. The Lords of the Vale tolerate Baelish due to his power and influence throughout the country. I doubt they'd give Sansa the same courtesy. They'd probably seize Robin, make him the ward of one of the lords of the Vale who has Arynn blood, and wait til he comes of age.

 

[ComicChick]

Jon did not desert the Night's Watch.

no one south of the wall knows that though

 

[Matt]

Yeah. If there's one thing that's been true throughout the series it's that the Starks have been pretty dumb. They get by based on their reputation for honorable behavior. Killing the man who just saved their - and their army's - lives would be very alienating. Jon and Sansa have to be careful how they play this.

Yep. Not to mention that Baelish, by the merit of being shown in Winterfell last episode, is now probably entitled to guest rights. Westeros culture takes that **** seriously. If they were to turn around and kill Baelish (or even let an "unfortunate accident" happen to him), they would be viewed in the same light as the Freys. The Freys cannot control Riverrun, not because the Tully's were overthrown and the houses were super devoted to the Tullys. They can't control it because they committed one of the most unforgivable sins of Westerosi culture by killing a guest in their home. The irony of the Starks turning around and doing the same, not only to a guest, but to the very man who just saved them...it would destroy their family name.

 

[ComicChick]

as much as i hate Baelish, he will be telling Death "Not Today". he won't die yet

he wants Sansa. he will probably ask for her hand since he helped her, and i hope like heck that she doesn't accept.
Sansa learned alot from watching people in Kings Landing, the Vale, with the Boltons. i dont think she's playing her whole hand yet and wants people to think she's still the timid weak Sansa. granted, she's still got some of her old characteristics, but i think she's got a a far better mind and grasp on things than she's letting on

 

[DarthSkywalker]

But the Knights of the Vale are already inside. Its not like Jon is going to say "hey, you wait outside while we set up defenses." An entire army basically saved Jon's. Do you think they are just chilling outside of Winterfell? Plus, Winterfell's gate is gone thanks to Wun Wun. A siege wouldn't be that hard without a gate.

As to Littlefinger, you're not giving him nearly enough credit.

Plus, what reason does Sansa really have to kill him? Look at it from her perspective:

Pro:

He saved her from the Lannisters

He was her "only friend in Kings Landing" (her words)

He brought his army and virtually handed her Winterfell back (just as he promised he would when he saved her from the Lannisters).

Con:

He gave her to Ramsay (whom he genuinely did not seem to know much about, which Sansa seems to believe, otherwise she could've killed him with Brienne)

He betrayed Ned, which neither Sansa nor Jon are aware of. As far as they are aware, the Lannisters controlled Janos and Janos betrayed Ned. The fact that Littlefinger bought Janos for the Lannisters isn't well known. In fact, the only people left who can speak as to Littlefinger's direct betrayal ("I did warn you not to trust me") are Varys and Cersei...neither of whom Sansa has any reason to believe.

So even assuming that Sansa was capable of killing Baelish...why would she? He has been her greatest ally.

Because he is going to suggest she betray Jon. Well more then he already has.

And you know who knows that he bretrayed Ned? Bran. Bran literally knows everything. And you must be crazy if you don't think Bran is "coming back".

Book 7 wasn't original titled "A Time for Wolves" for no reason.

 

[Victarion]

Matt, do you think Littlefinger will call in favors from the North for vanquishing the Boltons? Specifically, could you see him mustering the Northern armies for a march on King's Landing with the intent of taking the city for himself?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

no one south of the wall knows that though

Why assume people won't believe Davos and Jon? Especially as he has already went to the houses who only turned him down because they thought he was going to lose. He didn't lose, he won. Ned's head was removed because of BS and the North saw through it in a second. Jon is more Ned then anyone else. He inspires faith, trust, and passion. He won over the Wildings, the Night's Watch, Davos and he will win over the North.

 

[Victarion]

Why assume people won't believe Davos and Jon? Especially as he has already went to the houses who only turned him down because they thought he was going to lose. He didn't lose, he won.

Being resurrected is a hard sell. They would probably assume Jon was beaten within an inch of his life, saved by his Wildlings, and smuggled out of Castle Black to recover from his beating. That's the story I think they'd be more likely to believe.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

as much as i hate Baelish, he will be telling Death "Not Today". he won't die yet

he wants Sansa. he will probably ask for her hand since he helped her, and i hope like heck that she doesn't accept.
Sansa learned alot from watching people in Kings Landing, the Vale, with the Boltons. i dont think she's playing her whole hand yet and wants people to think she's still the timid weak Sansa. granted, she's still got some of her old characteristics, but i think she's got a a far better mind and grasp on things than she's letting on

Did she want to look weak, the way she rode out to meet Ramsay?

What does Sansa gain from denying Littlefinger, unless of course she uses it to gain his army and then does away with him?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Being resurrected is a hard sell. They would probably assume Jon was beaten within an inch of his life, saved by his Wildlings, and smuggled out of Castle Black to recover from his beating. That's the story I think they'd be more likely to believe.

Why believe in the White Walkers? Yet the young lady did. I am not saying everyone is going believe it until later. But there are many devoted to the Starks, many who remember Ned. Jon is so much like Ned, and as we know his legend has gone South of the Wall. People know what he has done.

 

[ComicChick]

Why assume people won't believe Davos and Jon? Especially as he has already went to the houses who only turned him down because they thought he was going to lose. He didn't lose, he won. Ned's head was removed because of BS and the North saw through it in a second. Jon is more Ned then anyone else. He inspires faith, trust, and passion. He won over the Wildings, the Night's Watch, Davos and he will win over the North.

because people have a hard enough time believing in the White Walkers. some still don't believe in the dragons, let alone resurrections

a man's word doesn't mean as much as it should to a lot of these people. many will probably see jon in stark clothes, not his castle black garb and think he's a deserted just like some of the houses questioned

 

[ComicChick]

Did she want to look weak, the way she rode out to meet Ramsay?

What does Sansa gain from denying Littlefinger, unless of course she uses it to gain his army and then does away with him?

i dont think she wanted to look weak at all. that's not what i meant.

what does she gain from denying him? i don't know. but she's already had to marry 2 men she didn't want to.

isn't Ramsay the first man she's ever killed? i don't seen her killing the next anytime soon, let alone Baelish while she can still use him

 

[DarthSkywalker]

i dont think she wanted to look weak at all. that's not what i meant.

what does she gain from denying him? i don't know. but she's already had to marry 2 men she didn't want to.

isn't Ramsay the first man she's ever killed? i don't seen her killing the next anytime soon, let alone Baelish while she can still use him

But how does she use him without marrying him? Like how does she keep him at bay at this point?

 

[Matt]

as much as i hate Baelish, he will be telling Death "Not Today". he won't die yet

he wants Sansa. he will probably ask for her hand since he helped her, and i hope like heck that she doesn't accept.
Sansa learned alot from watching people in Kings Landing, the Vale, with the Boltons. i dont think she's playing her whole hand yet and wants people to think she's still the timid weak Sansa. granted, she's still got some of her old characteristics, but i think she's got a a far better mind and grasp on things than she's letting on

I mean, when you think about it, Baelish isn't a bad match for Sansa and it is mutually beneficial for both to marry. It gives Baelish what he wants and Sansa what she wants. Yes, he may not be Loras Tyrell or her ideal mate. But, politically, he makes more sense for her than any other lord in Westeros.

Because he is going to suggest she betray Jon. Well more then he already has.

And you know who knows that he bretrayed Ned? Bran. Bran literally knows everything. And you must be crazy if you don't think Bran is "coming back".

Book 7 wasn't original titled "A Time for Wolves" for no reason.

Bran doesn't know everything yet. Also, it would be so unsatisfying if after all of Baelish's intricate scheming he is stopped by Bran showing up and saying "BOOM! MAGIC! I KNOW WHAT YOU DID! GHOST, KILL HIM!"

As for him suggesting she betray Jon, you really aren't giving him enough credit. He would never outright say that. Look at the way he played Robin and Cersei and the Queen of Thornes. Baelish just nudges people. He plants seeds in someone's mind, carefully tends to the seeds as they sprout and then lets the other person think it is their idea. And he doesn't even need to plant those ideas with Sansa. Catelyn did it for him years ago.

Matt, do you think Littlefinger will call in favors from the North for vanquishing the Boltons? Specifically, could you see him mustering the Northern armies for a march on King's Landing with the intent of taking the city for himself?

I think Littlefinger will do what he always does, adapts. Littlefinger plays speed chess, unlike Varys who plots out every move 10 in advance. Littlefinger adapts to just about anything. I think he will float the idea of marriage out there. If Sansa is not on board, he will instead suggest she repay him in another way (be it support for a move against the Lannisters or whatever). He will use her to continue to consolidate power. Once he has enough power that he no longer needs her, he can make his next move (whatever is opportune at the time, be it a forced marriage, disposing of her, whatever).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

because people have a hard enough time believing in the White Walkers. some still don't believe in the dragons, let alone resurrections

a man's word doesn't mean as much as it should to a lot of these people. many will probably see jon in stark clothes, not his castle black garb and think he's a deserted just like some of the houses questioned

Which is why the Wall will come down. Only one person has a claim on Winterfell that everyone knows of, and that is Sansa. I very much doubt she is going to betray her brother right now. Not as they have made strides to set up the 4 remaining Starks for the battle against the dead.

Jon and Sansa took back the North. Arya finished her training. Bran has gained the knowledge of Bloodraven.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I mean, when you think about it, Baelish isn't a bad match for Sansa and it is mutually beneficial for both to marry. It gives Baelish what he wants and Sansa what she wants. Yes, he may not be Loras Tyrell or her ideal mate. But, politically, he makes more sense for her than any other lord in Westeros.

Actually it is Jon once she realizes they aren't siblings.

Bran doesn't know everything yet. Also, it would be so unsatisfying if after all of Baelish's intricate scheming he is stopped by Bran showing up and saying "BOOM! MAGIC! I KNOW WHAT YOU DID! GHOST, KILL HIM!"

As for him suggesting she betray Jon, you really aren't giving him enough credit. He would never outright say that. Look at the way he played Robin and Cersei and the Queen of Thornes. Baelish just nudges people. He plants seeds in someone's mind, carefully tends to the seeds as they sprout and then lets the other person think it is their idea. And he doesn't even need to plant those ideas with Sansa. Catelyn did it for him years ago.

Bran does know everything, he just doesn't know how to access that knowledge in a coherent way. Like Luke, he left before he finished his training.

You aren't giving Sansa enough credit. She knows the man he is, what he does. As Sansa breaks all her chains, she is still going to be Littlefinger's puppet? Of course not. Littlefinger has a weakens. Cat and her daughter who reminds him of her. Sansa is having a conflict with herself over this situation. It probably won't be resolved in the next episode, but by the time it is over, Littlerfinger is going to be dead.

 

[Matt]

Actually it is Jon once she realizes they aren't siblings.

Even if R+L=J they are still first cousins.

Bran does know everything, he just doesn't know how to access that knowledge in a coherent way. Like Luke, he left before he finished his training.

And like Luke, Bran is a whiney little ***** who is the absolute worst.

You aren't giving Sansa enough credit. She knows the man he is, what he does. As Sansa breaks all her chains, she is still going to be Littlefinger's puppet? Of course not. Littlefinger has a weakens. Cat and her daughter who reminds him of her. Sansa is having a conflict with herself over this situation. It probably won't be resolved in the next episode, but by the time it is over, Littlerfinger is going to be dead.

Sansa is good, Baelish is better. I am sure at some point, she will be his downfall. For her to out-manuever him this soon...it wouldn't feel earned.