Season 7, Episode 5 "Eastwatch" Discussion Thread

[Ruth Fisher]

Jamie needs to die too. Him and his fake hand need to drown ASAP

 

[Iceman]

Jaime has a key viewpoint for me in the series. I'd like to see him make it to at least near the end.

 

[Warhorse]

I'm really amazed that anyone in the Lannister or Tyrell army would not question whether the Mother of Dragons would use her dragons against them. I mean come on, it's her nuclear arsenal. They're going to be used. Especially as they see her as a mad villain with an army of foreign savages. How could anyone willingly join a war against her?

Well, some of these people also believe in higher beings and Gods, and maybe their faith in these Gods is stronger than the fear of dragons.

 

[Warhorse]

I don't think the conversation between Jon, Davos, and Messandei was an accident. If Dany keeps going down this path, I could see several of her most trusted advisers jumping ship. Messandei included.

Given the show's penchant for killing off fan-favorites, the building tension between Dany and Tyrion is a cause for concern. Especially if Jaime ends up getting taken as prisoner and Tyrion needs to make a decision.

Well, maybe it's just me, but the only reason why Dani was in any way a favorite, was because of her dragons. But, we got Jon now, knowing he is the son of a Targaryen, kill off Dani as the big shock of the season, and give her control of the Dragons to Jon.

 

[Iceman]

Well, maybe it's just me, but the only reason why Dani was in any way a favorite, was because of her dragons. But, we got Jon now, knowing he is the son of a Targaryen, kill off Dani as the big shock of the season, and give her control of the Dragons to Jon.

Now that would be unpredictable!

 

[CB Fan]

Lol, yeah okay...

 

[Thundercrack85]

I could see Jon getting a dragon. He's on Dragonstone, he's a Targaryen, there's two dragons doing nothing.

With or without Dany's blessing, I can see him getting one.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well considering he burned people alive like that at Black water bay via wildfire, he would be a raging hypocrite. But I'm sure Dany haters would never call him out on that.

But those people weren't Lannisters. They were Baratheons, mercenaries and pirates. He obviously cares about Jaime. A lot. It hasn't really been alluded to, but it's not unreasonable to assume that he cares about his countrymen.

That was what I took away from that scene. He's clearly distraught by the reality of seeing his own people getting roasted alive by a dragon.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Wanting the throne because it's your birthright, and going to war for power and glory, was a big thing in medieval politics. Trying to judge it using modern standards just doesn't really work.

Also Dany being "big on torture" is a stretch, a real stretch.

It is almost like GoT has emphasized how silly that idea is. Or that a certain king, the one actually tried to save the world, wants no part of that ****.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Did I say anything about altruism or duty? No I didn't. She has wanted the throne since she saw it as a real possibility. She thinks it's her birthright. Which it is. Traditionally Jon has the better claim but neither she nor anyone else besides Bran knows that. And with the precedent Cersei set (that women can rule) it could be argued that Dany has a better claim than Jon because she is the daughter of the Mad King and Jon is his grandson.

And no I don't expect her to just shrug and say "Oh well, here's the Iron Throne, Jon." when Bran or Jon tells her that Jon is a Targ. For one thing, she doesn't know Bran and shouldn't just believe that some spaced out crippled guy really is traveling through time and telling the truth. She shouldn't be that gullible, and hopefully D&D won't make her that gullible. She should be skeptical. Even when she believes it, her just being ok with that revelation wouldn't be remotely appropriate. She's been working towards taking back the Iron Throne for years and has grown up thinking she and her brother were the last Targs. And for the past handful of years she has believed she was the last Targ. She shouldn't just be ok with Bran's revelation, happy about it, or immediately accept it. She's not a Vulcan and taking the Throne isn't some minor hobby of hers. It's a life goal. Something she has suffered to achieve. Something she's willing to die for. Expecting her to just give that up is silly.

Why would anyone think Jon is lying about the White Walkers... You have to see this from her point of view rather than a viewer's point of view. Jon shows up, a stranger to her, and starts talking about a supposed army of dead men and mythical monsters and that she needs him and the North just when she wants him to bend the knee and he refuses. To any sensible person, that would come across like horse****. She doesn't know him, his motivations, if he is running some long con, if he is as devious as the rest of the leaders of the great houses, if he is really there to attempt to assassinate her, if he is insane etc. She can't afford to just immediately believe this stranger based on stories and cave drawings. She has to get to know him and he's going to have to do better than stories and cave drawings. It's the same for Jon. He doesn't know her, and won't bend the knee to someone that he doesn't know. Both of them need to spend some time getting to know one another. And in the meantime, a war is going on south of the Wall, and she can't just chill and do nothing while Cersei does whatever the hell she is doing.

Also when has Dany executed or tortured innocent people? If you're referring to her talking about burning people, every time she's done that she's been threatened or attacked or is pissed off or she's trying to intimidate. But she has listened to council each time and held back. She isn't to the point where she is burning innocent people and non combatants.

No, Jon is next in line. It would go straight in line from the male heirs. Jon would have had the claim over Viserys. Everyone knows this, no one has ever argued against this. Where did this argument come from?

Bran can prove his point very, very, very easily. He can see everything. He can hit Dany with something only she knows, prove his abilities. When they see the White Walkers are headed where he says they are headed, that should be proof enough of his sight. But if they need more, he can provide it. As will Jon's ability to [BLACKOUT]interact with the dragons[/BLACKOUT].

And this all ignores the point, because she claims its her right. Not that she earned it, but her right. That is why Jon should bend the kneed to her. It would be hypocrisy of the highest order for her to ignore that, and show exactly how little her supposed claim actually matters to her. For everything Stannis was, he wouldn't have fought Robert for the Throne.

I never said anything about innocent people. Torture is still torture, and I am talking about Meeren. Remember Jon killing Mance to spare him pain? Dany is more then fine with torturing people she thinks deserves it. That isn't Jon's game. He executes who needs to be executed. He doesn't force them to suffer. She is fine with pain, with suffering if she thinks someone deserves it. And she has bad judgment, so who "deserves" something isn't really a good thing for her to judge.

Also, why did anyone have to tell her to not go roast King's Landing? Why did that need to be said?

 

[Warhorse]

Who are these good people on the show whose goal is the throne, not for duty sake, but for a lust for power? Dany desires power. Not altruism, but power. Which is what makes the irony so sweat with her. It is also why so many have to tell her to not go about killing innocent people. She is using the excuse of birthright to get it. Once that is gone, you think she is going to act like the good supportive aunt she should be?

Why would anyone think Jon is lying? What does he get from lying? He wants dragonglass to decorate Winterfell? Unlike the rest of them, he isn't fighting for power and that is rather clear. Otherwise he wouldn't even be at Dragonstone.

Finally, there is a big difference between killing people, and torturing them. Dany is big on the torture. Doing what her enemies do. Jon doesn't do that. He executes people when it is necessary. Spares people when he can. Look at how he handled the war over land earlier this season? Jon is a perfect juxtaposition to how out of control, or at least vicious, Dany is. Others are forced to keep her under control.

I agree. You know who Dani is starting to remind me of? Joffery! Reason I say that, Tywin's comment to him that a king who keeps saying he is king, is no true king.

 

[Reek]

Jon's going to sell the dragons on eBay and holler at the golden company. free shipping

 

[Warhorse]

Well considering he burned people alive like that at Black water bay via wildfire, he would be a raging hypocrite. But I'm sure Dany haters would never call him out on that.

Please tell me you are joking! Big difference between him and Dani. When Tyrion started to hear the men scream in pain and terror, he was CLEARLY upset and regretful about it. Dani however, seems to enjoy watching men and women scream in pain. Same with Jon. He has to kill in war, but he doesn't enjoy it.

 

[Reek]

Dany is like Trump in the sense that she has to feel powerful to satisfy her massive ego.

and if you don't think she has a massive ego.... Ask Missandei to introduce her to you.... *15 minutes pass*

 

[Warhorse]

Dany is like Trump in the sense that she has to feel powerful to satisfy her massive ego.

and if you don't think she has a massive ego.... Ask Missandei to introduce her to you.... *15 minutes pass*

Oh, I am so hoping if Arya ever has to come across Missandei's rant, she will tell her to shut up or slap her silly. Or who knows, maybe Bronn, The Hound or Tormund will knock her out.

 

[Reek]

or someone gives her the strangler poison right before it

 

[BullMcGiveny]

I feel like her going all "mad queen" would be incredibly predictable and cliché at this point. "Oh her dad went mad, so now she is to, aren't we clever?" No, no you're not if you go that route.

She's the character most referencing typical fantasy hero tropes, so to have her whole arc turn out to be a journey to villainy would be more original.

She doesn't actually have to be insane like her father. She could simply be consumed by greed and ambition.

I also disagree that no one ever calls her out on it, or that she's not presented as flawed.

I must have missed it then.

Because in season 5, she was talking about breaking wheels, in season 6, she said she would consider granting kingdoms their independence. And now she's shown up in Westeros and talking about birthrights, perpetuity, and really not being all that different.

Just in the last episode, when she's convinced the white walkers are real, she immediately decides to use it as leverage to strongarm Jon into bending the knee.

And a few minutes later Missendei talks about people choosing to serve her, and given Davos and Jon's reaction, we're meant to agree.

So any calling out isn't being proportional to the depths of her flaws.

 

[ban768]

Please tell me you are joking! Big difference between him and Dani. When Tyrion started to hear the men scream in pain and terror, he was CLEARLY upset and regretful about it. Dani however, seems to enjoy watching men and women scream in pain. Same with Jon. He has to kill in war, but he doesn't enjoy it.

Tyrion wasn't that regretful considering he wanted recognition and Casterly Rock as his reward for what he accomplished at Blackwater.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I mean, this notion that Dany is a total hero is kind of dubious, considering her life goal is to conquer an entire continent by force.

Is she better than Joffrey? Sure. But she could just as easily live out her life in Essos.

 

[KevTravels]

what's with all the hate toward the Mother of Dragons?

The fact that she even stated several times that she would not kill innocents proves she's good. Even when she was in a angry mood, she looked to Jon to give her a reason not to let her dragons loose.

She knows her father was the Mad King and doesn't want to be like him. But she does have a birthright (during this period, it's very logical for her to see herself as a god of sorts, especially as she has 3 dragons).

 

[Reek]

Tyrion advised her to stay in Essos where she could do the most good... He was absolutely right. Well... Until he found out the Others were coming.

Then she did her stupid wheel speech. I call it stupid because she said her own name

 

[Loki882]

Comparing her to Joffrey is laughable. As is trying to argue that she enjoyed doing that "there's no evidence of that in the actual episode, that's people projecting their own thoughts onto it, pure and simple."

Oh and BullMcGiveny yes the "hero actually becomes a villain" WOULD be incredibly predictable. And the fact that so many people are calling it just proves that. It's been done A LOT before.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think the point of Game of Thrones is that it's not black and white. Even the "good" characters do a lot of things that can't really be described as good.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Please tell me you are joking! Big difference between him and Dani. When Tyrion started to hear the men scream in pain and terror, he was CLEARLY upset and regretful about it. Dani however, seems to enjoy watching men and women scream in pain. Same with Jon. He has to kill in war, but he doesn't enjoy it.

Please Tyrion brags about that every chance he gets, including last week's episode. Him being "terrified" by this would be insanely hypocritical.

 

[Reek]

Well.. wildfire is a trump card... a single use (or very rarely used) weapon... these dragons are WMD's that don't explode and go away... they are unlimited. I'm not sure Tyrion was terrified of wildfire or the dragons as much as it is him being amazed... especially with dragons... he's literally seeing the stories hes read happen. And not to mention, he probably was more upset about, what should we call this battle, the battle at highgarden(?) .... more than blackwater because it was his brother they were fighting.