supreme power questions for all

[The Question]

They explored it in the King Thor saga. They just explored it in a way that made sense for the 616 Thor as he was portrayed in that context. He basically went around bettering the world in various ways that only a god with incredible resources could, then presented himself to the UN as basically nothing more than a courtesy. Later, he intervened in a country's corrupt government and, later still, he took over Earth completely for its own good. Granted, he lacked his human perspective at the time, but for the most part I've always found that 616 Thor tends to just ignore Earth's governments altogether and offer aid to people wherever they need it, whether the government likes it or not. He's beyond terrestrial governments because he believes his authority is greater than theirs, unlike Ultimate Thor, who pretty much spent all his time before joining the Ultimates appealing to the governments of Earth for change.

True. But King Thor was Thor after becoming the ruler of Asgard, thus having the entire Kingdom's resources at his disposal. He was capable of making the big direct changes he wanted. Ultimate Thor is not. He's a very powerful superhuman, but he still can;t force major change the way Thor could in the King Thor storyline.

 

[Whirlysplat]

so whata ya mean the squadron supreme series happens before the
hyperion mini happend? i haven't read that mini yet or that first issue.

Not exactly when you read issue 5 of the mini you will get what I mean.

Anyone else notice that JMS paid homage to Gruenwalds DB7 and initial Squadron work with the inclusion of Blur instead of Whizzer and the change of Emil from Menace to the brains of the Squadron. Lots of cool "in" retro stuff going on.

- Whirly

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Blur is the Whizzer of JMS' Squadron.

True. But King Thor was Thor after becoming the ruler of Asgard, thus having the entire Kingdom's resources at his disposal. He was capable of making the big direct changes he wanted. Ultimate Thor is not. He's a very powerful superhuman, but he still can;t force major change the way Thor could in the King Thor storyline.

Thor could force change without Asgard's resources. He can control every aspect of the weather in every way. If he wanted to, he could literally transform the entire world. He just never had the desire to before the King Thor saga because he had the perspective to understand that it wasn't the right thing to do.

 

[The Question]

Are you sure he's got that kind of range? I mean, I know he can make some pretty ****ing huge storms, but literally change the world? Besides, in the Ultimates, he was shown using his powers a bit forcefully. Not as much as you described, but at one point during a protest in Italy, the cops showed up, and Thor literally swated all of them away with one strike from his hammer. I'm fairly certain that there was a good deal more violence involved there that we didn't see, because the team plus Captain Britain and some other Europian supers all atacked him for it.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I can't recall his ever manipulating weather all around the world at once, but then, he's never had a reason to. I do know that his power has trumped pretty much every other weather manipulator's power, though. Captain America called him in specifically to counter this one Native American dude's weather powers, and he did it with ease, even though the Native American guy was backed by his own weather god.

What does the Ultimate Italy incident have to do with anything? 616 Thor's capable of doing that and more in his sleep.

 

[The Question]

I can't recall his ever manipulating weather all around the world at once, but then, he's never had a reason to. I do know that his power has trumped pretty much every other weather manipulator's power, though. Captain America called him in specifically to counter this one Native American dude's weather powers, and he did it with ease, even though the Native American guy was backed by his own weather god.

I get that he's one ****ing powerful storm god. But I wouldn't assuem that he could control all the weather around the world at once just because he hasn't yet.

What does the Ultimate Italy incident have to do with anything? 616 Thor's capable of doing that and more in his sleep.

It has to do with what you're talking about. You're saying if Thor got more political, he'd probably be alot less peacefull. I was giving an example of Ultimate Thor using a fair amout of violence to get his point across.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor didn't use violence to better the world as King Thor initially. He brought medical supplies and food down from Asgard, empowered reactors with the Odinpower to provide cheap energy, that sort of thing. The UN launched nuclear missiles at Asgard after it appeared above Manhattan and Thor still didn't attack anyone. He just teleported the missiles' explosions away and gave the UN a harsh talking to. It wasn't until this bunch of business moguls tried to kill Thor and destroy Asgard that Thor started his violent coup of the world.

What I was saying was that if 616 Thor wanted to effect change, he'd just do it without appealing to paltry Earth governments the way Ultimate Thor does. Governments have laws appointed by man. Thor's will is the will of a god. In his mind he outranks the governments, he just obeys Odin's pact of noninterference established a millennium ago. Over the years he's developed some respect for the spirit of government, but he still has a great deal of disdain for the corruption and pettiness that beset most human governments.

 

[The Question]

Thor didn't use violence to better the world as King Thor initially. He brought medical supplies and food down from Asgard, empowered reactors with the Odinpower to provide cheap energy, that sort of thing. The UN launched nuclear missiles at Asgard after it appeared above Manhattan and Thor still didn't attack anyone. He just teleported the missiles' explosions away and gave the UN a harsh talking to. It wasn't until this bunch of business moguls tried to kill Thor and destroy Asgard that Thor started his violent coup of the world.

True. I'm just saying, Ultimate Thor isn't all talk. He's used force when necesairy.

What I was saying was that if 616 Thor wanted to effect change, he'd just do it without appealing to paltry Earth governments the way Ultimate Thor does. Governments have laws appointed by man. Thor's will is the will of a god. In his mind he outranks the governments, he just obeys Odin's pact of noninterference established a millennium ago. Over the years he's developed some respect for the spirit of government, but he still has a great deal of disdain for the corruption and pettiness that beset most human governments.

But the question is: How far would he get? He can kick up a mean storm, I get that. And, he could probably take out a good deal of military forces that would come after him while he was trying to force these changes. But, eventually, he'd be taken down. Why? Because A: he's not the only superhuman on Earth, B: it would be him against every military force on the planet, and C: I doubt he can stop a nuke without the odin force. I don't think Ultimate Thor is wussing out in front of the world's governments. I think he's just playing it smart. Because, if he tried to inact change on his own by force, he'd probably fail.

 

[THANOSRULES]

JMS Squadron is pretty Much ultimate Squadron Supreme..I think thats the best and most accurate way to describe it.

As for the series I read the 3 Supreme power trades the other day...

Great writing,dialogue etc.. a very functional adult/mature comic..yet it suffers from many of the problems at large in Marvel comics today.

The comic is long winded and there is not much action. I mean 18 issues and they hardley were a team or had introduced all the members yet.

I also feel like the comic is an amalgam of things done before. Not just in the respect that Squadron is perceived as a JLA knock, but the Supreme power itself seems to be nothing really new in terms of its feel. It has elements of rising stars, and some other alternate timelines stories IMO.

Just not great.

Ultimatly i found myself wondering what was up with the 'ole squadron of Gruenwald..good thing they returned with force in Exiles.

Frankley i am sick of marvel expanding Ultimates and re-launches simply to accomidate "rock star" pampered writers.

When we last left the original squadron they had alot of work to do and an excellent set-up for an ongoing series...

i would have liked to seen that story instead.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

But the question is: How far would he get? He can kick up a mean storm, I get that. And, he could probably take out a good deal of military forces that would come after him while he was trying to force these changes. But, eventually, he'd be taken down. Why? Because A: he's not the only superhuman on Earth, B: it would be him against every military force on the planet, and C: I doubt he can stop a nuke without the odin force. I don't think Ultimate Thor is wussing out in front of the world's governments. I think he's just playing it smart. Because, if he tried to inact change on his own by force, he'd probably fail.

I don't know how far he'd get, but it'd be a lot further than Ultimate Thor could get if he tried the same route. From what I've seen, Ultimate Thor's power pales in comparison to 616 Thor's. There's no military force on Earth that could stand up to him, and whether nukes would be a problem for him without the Odinpower is debatable. I doubt they would be until they start getting into the armageddon-level payloads, and even those he could just teleport away or redirect with the wind.

Either way, he'd probably never bother. Political issues aren't a major concern for 616 Thor. He doesn't have an agenda beyond helping people by kicking villains' asses and maybe bagging Sif if he's got some time left over.

 

[The Question]

I don't know how far he'd get, but it'd be a lot further than Ultimate Thor could get if he tried the same route. From what I've seen, Ultimate Thor's power pales in comparison to 616 Thor's. There's no military force on Earth that could stand up to him, and whether nukes would be a problem for him without the Odinpower is debatable. I doubt they would be until they start getting into the armageddon-level payloads, and even those he could just teleport away or redirect with the wind.

You're right, Ultimate Thor has yet to display feats on 616 Thor's levels (except for teleporting a planet destroying warhead into another dimension. That was kind of cool). And if he is considerably weaker than 616 Thor, that may be a factor. But I highly doubt no military force on the planet would stand a chance against Thor. That includes the super soldiers. What do you think would happen to Thor is the rest of The Avengers, the Winder Gaurd, and Alpha Flight all atacked him at once?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't consider other superheroes military forces. I was talking about the armies, navies, and air forces of nations. Of course, if you throw enough superhumans at Thor he'll get his ass kicked. Hell, if you throw one or two of the right superhumans at Thor he'll get his ass kicked. Draft the Juggernaut and the Hulk to fight him and they'd be picking pieces of Thor up for weeks.

 

[JesusOfNazarath]

Well, in some ways yes, and in some ways no. The largest examples are The Hulk and Thor.

i think colossus, cap, fury, the symbiotes, jean grey, deadpool and the goblins are big examples.

 

[Whirlysplat]

I don't consider other superheroes military forces. I was talking about the armies, navies, and air forces of nations. Of course, if you throw enough superhumans at Thor he'll get his ass kicked. Hell, if you throw one or two of the right superhumans at Thor he'll get his ass kicked. Draft the Juggernaut and the Hulk to fight him and they'd be picking pieces of Thor up for weeks.

He can use Battlefield removal on both of these and even though an ill and weakened Thor had problems using the Godforce against Juggy in the Simonson run, I don't think a fit Thor would.

Remember that Warrior Madness Thor caused huge problems for the Infinity Watch (withstanding karmic blasts and the soul gem), Surfer and Strange.

Thor when written to full potential is a beast, however his warrior code normally means he fights like for like and in this way I agree Juggy and the Hulk would hurt him badly.

- Whirly

 

[The Question]

I don't consider other superheroes military forces. I was talking about the armies, navies, and air forces of nations. Of course, if you throw enough superhumans at Thor he'll get his ass kicked. Hell, if you throw one or two of the right superhumans at Thor he'll get his ass kicked. Draft the Juggernaut and the Hulk to fight him and they'd be picking pieces of Thor up for weeks.

Well, I'm assuming that, if dealing with Thor, the military would simply call in superhumans to deal with him.

 

[ang_hulk]

If anyone likes dc characters but has issues with how they do things they should read supreme power,i slso highly recommend snaging the trades when of all the minis especilly night hawks.this book is awesome

 

[TheCorpulent1]

He can use Battlefield removal on both of these and even though an ill and weakened Thor had problems using the Godforce against Juggy in the Simonson run, I don't think a fit Thor would.

Remember that Warrior Madness Thor caused huge problems for the Infinity Watch (withstanding karmic blasts and the soul gem), Surfer and Strange.

Thor when written to full potential is a beast, however his warrior code normally means he fights like for like and in this way I agree Juggy and the Hulk would hurt him badly.

- Whirly

There's the problem. Thor's very rarely been written to full potential in the comics. If he were thinking in most of his Juggernaut fights, he'd have beaten him by absorbing the magic energy that grants Jugs his total invulnerability. That would leave Jugs as just another bruiser, and his fighting skills don't even come close to Thor's.

One could argue that Warrior Madness Thor was augmented considerably by his rage. WM is supposed to boost Thor's strength a lot, though it's been portrayed pretty sketchily in the past. He kicked a lot of cosmic powerhouses' asses in "Blood and Thunder," but he still couldn't beat the Hulk just before Onslaught while he was in the throes of WM.

As for battlefield removal, as you pointed out, Thor's warrior code prevents him from using that as anything but a last resort. Granted, his priorities may shift and he may use it earlier if he's trying to change the world, but it's still pretty unlikely that Thor would just toss people into another dimension for expediency.

Well, I'm assuming that, if dealing with Thor, the military would simply call in superhumans to deal with him.

That may be, but I still wouldn't consider those superhumans part of the country's military forces. The US government, for example, would have to ask the Avengers or the FF or most other groups of superhumans to assist them in neutralizing Thor. There are only a few superhumans who are actually government officers, able to be deployed as the government sees fit. Sabra, Alpha Flight, and (I think) Big Hero 6 are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[The Question]

And you don't think if those guys came together, they couldn't handle Thor? Alpha Flight is quite powerful.




Anyway, that asside, I have a question:

What are the other Ultimate characters that you think are major departures?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

There's Ultimate Cap, who represents basically the opposite parts of America from 616 Cap down to his very core.

Ultimate Nightcrawler started out by murdering a bunch of soldiers with a machine gun. I think you'd be hard-pressed to get 616 Nightcrawler to even fire a gun, let alone kill half a dozen people with one.

Ultimate Gwen Stacy was entirely different from the wholesome, girl-next-door 616 Gwen.

Ultimate MJ was basically 616 Gwen, which makes her different from 616 MJ.

Ultimate Storm is pretty different from 616 Storm in that she lacked the regal, born leader qualities early on. I quit reading Ultimate X-Men relatively early, though, so I don't know if she's gotten closer to 616 Storm.

Ultimate Vision seems to be an entirely different take on the character altogether, with the only common thread being that they're both machines.

Honestly, I haven't read anything Ultimate in so long that I can't really say whether these differences are still valid. At the time I was reading Ultimate comics, though, I noticed a lot of differences between the characters.

 

[The Question]

There's Ultimate Cap, who represents basically the opposite parts of America from 616 Cap down to his very core.

Well, yes an no. He's very much like Cap was when he first started out. Quick, to the point, and prone to a good deal of violence. The main reason for this? He was in a war. Not a time for subtlety or questioning orders. Especially since he agreed with most of his orders. Now, when Cap awoke from the ice in 616, he adapted to the modern world rather quickly. I mean, he still felt like a fish out of water, but for the sakes of his job, he realized that the world was different, and the same tactics and mentality no longer aplied. Ultimate Cap is still adjusting. He's an unerringly patriotic new deal democrat in a time where things are alot less black and white. In WWII, it was pretty damn obvious that Hitler was the bad guy. Now, while there are still bad guys, alot of the stuff the U.S. is doing isn't that great either. There's no evil empire to fight againts. But Cap's still in his wartime mentality. As the series has progressed, he's become a bit more like 616 Cap. Especially in the issue where he was framed for Hawkeye's murder. The scene where he and Bucky were walking through the cemetary and talking was very much akin to 616 Cap.

Ultimate Nightcrawler started out by murdering a bunch of soldiers with a machine gun. I think you'd be hard-pressed to get 616 Nightcrawler to even fire a gun, let alone kill half a dozen people with one.

Very true. But then, you have to think of the situation he was in. He had been kidnapped by Weapon X and tortured for months, and he was trying to escape. He was panicking, and basically in a fight or flight state of mind. Not really thinking. Notice how he's never even hurt anyone that badly since.

Ultimate Gwen Stacy was entirely different from the wholesome, girl-next-door 616 Gwen.

Ultimate MJ was basically 616 Gwen, which makes her different from 616 MJ.

Okay, now there I have to agree. They kind of swaped personalities.

Ultimate Storm is pretty different from 616 Storm in that she lacked the regal, born leader qualities early on. I quit reading Ultimate X-Men relatively early, though, so I don't know if she's gotten closer to 616 Storm.

She's become a good deal more responsible and mature, and has taken on alot of the leader like qualities that 616 Storm has. She's not particularly regal, but she seems alot more responsible than before.

Ultimate Vision seems to be an entirely different take on the character altogether, with the only common thread being that they're both machines.

Honestly, I haven't read anything Ultimate in so long that I can't really say whether these differences are still valid. At the time I was reading Ultimate comics, though, I noticed a lot of differences between the characters.

There are differences. But the more I've read, the more I see that the differences are alot more superficial than I origionally thought.

 

[Zoken]

I picked up the first issue of Squadron Supreme, and I have to say I rather like it. I like the new take on Super-heroing. I've never read any Supreme related stuff before, so I'll probably be trying to go back and find some of this max line and check it out.

By the way; DC has as much as said Marvel could write their stuff better. to back this up I cite the "Just Imagine..." line wherein Marvel's human mascot Stan Lee recreated most of DC's major sellers (Actual names in tact). I'd like to know whats going on with them lately.

anyway, I think the problem is that people still see the new Squadron Supreme characters as based on DC characters. they aren't. they're based on Marvel's Squadron Supreme (which admittedly were based on DC's big sellers, but over time Marvel made the characters their own).

 

[co2]

I have the vol 1 hardcover. Thought it was OK. Not enough to get me to buy any more though.

 

[spiderwasp]

I've really been enjoying the Supreme Power series, but would argue that it isn't an Ultimate version of the DC books as much as it is the Ultimate version of the mainstream Marvel Squadrine Supreme, which was of course, in turn created based on DC. Minor difference, I know, but still this second degree of seperation helps the book stand further apart from DC. Besides, the original Squadrine was awesome - especially the Utopia limited series. I hope Marvel won't forget about them.
Did anyone else love the line in the Avengers/JLA crossover where one of the Avengers called the JLA a bunch of Squadrine Supreme wantabees? Very funny.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Marvel hasn't forgotten about the original Squadron at all. Check out Exiles. They're all over that comic.

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

I like it.

But the only reason you think that "Marvel writes DC Characters better then DC" is because they can start fron scratch and completely change whatever they want to about the character. I don't think we should start a petition to get JMS onto JLA.

Maybe a peteition to get Supreme Power back into MAX.

jms will probably make batman be his destiny and give him a bat avatar and some fangs, with some stingers