TDKR vs Civil War

[Erzengel]

Why do you consider this to be surprising?

General feel? I see how Iron Man is "sometimes" considered one of the best MCU movies and usually higher than BB.

 

[Slade W]

General feel? I see how Iron Man is "sometimes" considered one of the best MCU movies and usually higher than BB.

Fair enough. From what I have seen people say about both movies, it seems to me they are regarded on the same level.

 

[Mjölnir]

I'm not actually so sure. In a way, I think allowing Bruce to evolve pass Batman and move beyond it is actually more daring than simply having him sacrifice himself to save Gotham.

I'd only see that as daring by that it goes even further away from the general depiction of Batman in the comics (I know there are exceptions, but those aren't what I hear people talk about loving the most), although not following the source material isn't exactly new in cbm's.

Other than that I can't say that giving a character a happy ending is daring. That's how most stories end. Not that I think it had to be daring though.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Fair enough. From what I have seen people say about both movies, it seems to me they are regarded on the same level.

Yeah i would say the same, i don't recall one ever dominating the other in the polls here.

 

[Erzengel]

Fair enough. From what I have seen people say about both movies, it seems to me they are regarded on the same level.

Let me preface this by saying in the end it's opinions.

But, I just typed "best comic book movies all time", there were half a dozen lists that I checked really quickly and only once was BB over IM. The other 5 had IM higher and sometimes BB is not even on the lists.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Well after doing a quick but of research i take back my previous statement, BB dominates IM and most others here:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=500693&highlight=origin

 

[Infinity9999x]

BB and IM are an interesting comparison for a few reasons. Culturally, Iron Man had a much bigger immediate impact. Batman Begins was a slow burn. It didn't open huge and it only made the BO it did because of it's quality and legs. And even then, when TDK was coming out, tons of people I knew hadn't seen BB. It flew under the radar for a good portion of the general public. However, BB has had a HUGE lasting impact on the comic book film industry. People still reference it as influences, and at times people try to copy it's style even to a fault.

Iron Man was a huge surprise smash that ushered in the MCU as we know it, and showed people that comic films could be fun while still dealing with serious undertones and even make some commentary on political happenings. (Not a huge political commentary, but it was there).

As such, I think when making "top comic movies" lists, I can see why BB is often lower than IM or left of the list entirely (especially since TDK came along and was even better, and it probably feels odd to most people to put two Batman movies by the same creative team on the list).

Personally, I think they're about equal for different reasons. Iron man was pure fun, and, much like Depp's Jack Sparrow, while it's easy to accept RDJ's Tony Stark as standard faire today, people forget that how he portrayed Stark was completely new and exciting for comic fans in 08. IM's biggest flaw is a somewhat weak villain and weak 3rd act compared to the rest of the film.

BB was the first film to really delve into the psyche of a Superhero, and really show us the journey to creating who the hero was. It's probably a bit more evenly paced than IM...but ultimately suffers from a similar issue that IM does, in that the 3rd act is the weakest part of the film.

 

[DACrowe]

General feel? I see how Iron Man is "sometimes" considered one of the best MCU movies and usually higher than BB.

Not to start another vs. thing, but I think the general consensus (not that you have to agree with it) is that Batman Begins and Superman: The Movie are the best origin story films, with Spider-Man (2002) and then Iron Man having their fans who also consider them the best.

For the record, I like all four.

 

[Erzengel]

As such, I think when making "top comic movies" lists, I can see why BB is often lower than IM or left of the list entirely (especially since TDK came along and was even better, and it probably feels odd to most people to put two Batman movies by the same creative team on the list).

They are going to both be on the same lists if they extend further than say 10. I'm sure all 3 of the TDK movies would be on say a Top 30 list.

However, I've come across a few newer polls (Newsarama) which have TWS and CW are both within a Top 10 and they have the same creative team.

 

[Erzengel]

Not to start another vs. thing, but I think the general consensus (not that you have to agree with it) is that Batman Begins and Superman: The Movie are the best origin story films, with Spider-Man (2002) and then Iron Man having their fans who also consider them the best.

For the record, I like all four.

I would agree with you if not for typing in best comic book movies all time in google, saw 6 best lists on the first page. IM is usually ahead of BB except for one list by IGN. The dates range in the past 5 years to recently. And as Infinity said, how BB is sometimes not even listed.

Unless you're talking about the general consensus here on SHH.

 

[Infinity9999x]

The hard thing about these lists as well, especially when we start comparing films that are getting close to 40 years old, is at what point are we really ranking a film by quality and by influence?

I would argue that Superman: TM, while being a very good film, has become VERY dated in many aspects. However, it's huge impact on the comic film genre cannot be denied. But if you start weighing by impact, then Blade or the original X-men film should be very high on the list...though when you look at the quality of those films, while they're both good, I wouldn't put either of them in the top 15 to 20, let alone 10.

 

[Tony Stark]

I think being the first does weigh merrit. Yes there are dated things about Superman TM, but from the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the movie is very compelling and a great telling of the origin. I still love the concept of the crystal technology, which is something I'm not sure was shown in any previous version of Superman. When the film gets to Metropolis and finally becomes a comic book film, that's when it gets a little campy and it's certainly a silver age interpretation of the character. But prior to that the film draws from a number of genres, from grandiose Biblical films, or from the golden age of cinema.

I don't think you can automatically dismiss it because of those issues. To me Reeves is still the person everyone thinks of when they think of Superman. His Clark Kent character isn't necessarily one that people will cling to, but Superman most certainly yes. The fact is no one has owned the character the way that he has since.

For those reasons I would put it in the top 10, top 15.

 

[Erzengel]

The hard thing about these lists as well, especially when we start comparing films that are getting close to 40 years old, is at what point are we really ranking a film by quality and by influence?

I would argue that Superman: TM, while being a very good film, has become VERY dated in many aspects. However, it's huge impact on the comic film genre cannot be denied. But if you start weighing by impact, then Blade or the original X-men film should be very high on the list...though when you look at the quality of those films, while they're both good, I wouldn't put either of them in the top 15 to 20, let alone 10.

You also have to bring into it, Batman 89 which while different is a bit of an origin story in itself. I'm not sure if that also hinders BB.

 

[InCali]

For me, there are 'moments' which equal BB & TDK but it's not in the same league as the two previous films in the series.

I KNEW we agreed on something. Hooray!!!! t:

As for me, who tends to like Marvel movies more than DC/WB movies, I would NEVER, EVER say that Nolan's trilogy can't compete with the CA trio. Overall, I'd say that Nolan's work is probably better; I just consider TDKR to be the weakest of the 6 (but not by THAT much).

All that being said, Nolan's fight scenes aren't really very good, but I'm not going to let that spoil what are otherwise excellent (BB and TDK) to pretty good (TDKR) movies. If you really think that his fight scenes are better than CW or DD, there's this thing called the internet that has many examples saying otherwise. While movies overall are subjective, I think there is an element of objectivity that CAN be had from watching technical aspects of a movie.

 

[InCali]

Fair enough. From what I have seen people say about both movies, it seems to me they are regarded on the same level.

I personally regard them at about the same level and agree with the later statement that IM made the bigger immediate splash while BB did more of a slow burn and has come to be appreciated as one of the very best CBMs (I thought it one of the best when I saw it on opening day).

 

[DACrowe]

I would agree with you if not for typing in best comic book movies all time in google, saw 6 best lists on the first page. IM is usually ahead of BB except for one list by IGN. The dates range in the past 5 years to recently. And as Infinity said, how BB is sometimes not even listed.

Unless you're talking about the general consensus here on SHH.

Can't say on lists, although many usually try to keep one movie per franchise on those. This is something, you're right, I can't prove and I'm not stating as a fact. I just feel like when the story of origin stories come up people tend to point to STM and BB. For the record, I love the X-Men: First Class origin story, but no it is never considered one of the greats.

 

[Tony Stark]

It's amazing how I don't think one person has been critical of the other two films, even though there's things you probably could criticize, but I think everyone realizes their place in cinema, especially TDK, but the moment anyone says something negative about Bane, the fighting or TDKR's weakness in general compared to the other films....

 

[Mandon Knight]

I KNEW we agreed on something. Hooray!!!! t:

t:

 

[Infinity9999x]

I think being the first does weigh merrit. Yes there are dated things about Superman TM, but from the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the movie is very compelling and a great telling of the origin. I still love the concept of the crystal technology, which is something I'm not sure was shown in any previous version of Superman. When the film gets to Metropolis and finally becomes a comic book film, that's when it gets a little campy and it's certainly a silver age interpretation of the character. But prior to that the film draws from a number of genres, from grandiose Biblical films, or from the golden age of cinema.

I don't think you can automatically dismiss it because of those issues. To me Reeves is still the person everyone thinks of when they think of Superman. His Clark Kent character isn't necessarily one that people will cling to, but Superman most certainly yes. The fact is no one has owned the character the way that he has since.

For those reasons I would put it in the top 10, top 15.

I would agree, even though I've never been a huge fan of the old school Superman films. But the performance of Reeves alone is enough to put it up there. What get's tricky is exactly where do you rank it within that top 20? I think it has to be high, but at what point are we ranking the film based on influence as opposed to the film itself? And that's really a question that I don't expect an answer to, it's just something I'm fascinated by.

As to your other comment about TDKR...look man, I totally understand not liking the film. And I don't think anyone is telling you you're wrong for not enjoying the film itself. However, I know I've seen you post quite a few times where you're essentially trying to pass off your opinion of the film as widely accepted fact. And that's just not true. It's like what I said about Spider-man 2 earlier. I'm not a big fan of that film. I could go into a whole list of reasons why I don't think it's a great Spider-man film. But I don't go around pretending that my view is the accepted view of the general public...because it's not. SM2 got great reviews and made a ton of money. The general public and critics really enjoyed the film, despite my faults with it.

TDKR is the same for you. It's fine to criticize it, but you can't pretend that the film didn't get positive reviews from critics and the general public and make a crap ton of money...because it did.

And that's what I think people get annoyed at. Arguing your point is one thing. Pretending your point is fact is another.

 

[DACrowe]

It's amazing how I don't think one person has been critical of the other two films, even though there's things you probably could criticize, but I think everyone realizes their place in cinema, especially TDK, but the moment anyone says something negative about Bane, the fighting or TDKR's weakness in general compared to the other films....

Dude, you are still the only person who is freaking out about Rises, and now bringing it up in a conversation completely unrelated to that third Nolan film.

 

[InCali]

It's amazing how I don't think one person has been critical of the other two films, even though there's things you probably could criticize, but I think everyone realizes their place in cinema, especially TDK, but the moment anyone says something negative about Bane, the fighting or TDKR's weakness in general compared to the other films....

Well, I did say I didn't think Nolan's fight scenes are very good, but wasn't going to let that completely spoil the movies for me. That's one weakness I think TDK had. I honestly don't remember if I thought that about BB though because I haven't seen it for quite some time.

 

[Erzengel]

I've said before that the fight scenes especially in TDKR because they were more noticeable and frequent didn't seem like Nolan's strong suit. And I own TDKR.

 

[Tony Stark]

Dude, you are still the only person who is freaking out about Rises, and now bringing it up in a conversation completely unrelated to that third Nolan film.

And yet you're the one that felt the need to create an unnecessary poll.

 

[Tony Stark]

I would agree, even though I've never been a huge fan of the old school Superman films. But the performance of Reeves alone is enough to put it up there. What get's tricky is exactly where do you rank it within that top 20? I think it has to be high, but at what point are we ranking the film based on influence as opposed to the film itself? And that's really a question that I don't expect an answer to, it's just something I'm fascinated by.

As to your other comment about TDKR...look man, I totally understand not liking the film. And I don't think anyone is telling you you're wrong for not enjoying the film itself. However, I know I've seen you post quite a few times where you're essentially trying to pass off your opinion of the film as widely accepted fact. And that's just not true. It's like what I said about Spider-man 2 earlier. I'm not a big fan of that film. I could go into a whole list of reasons why I don't think it's a great Spider-man film. But I don't go around pretending that my view is the accepted view of the general public...because it's not. SM2 got great reviews and made a ton of money. The general public and critics really enjoyed the film, despite my faults with it.

TDKR is the same for you. It's fine to criticize it, but you can't pretend that the film didn't get positive reviews from critics and the general public and make a crap ton of money...because it did.

And that's what I think people get annoyed at. Arguing your point is one thing. Pretending your point is fact is another.

Well it would be in my top 10, but I'm of the generation that grew up with it, so I don't know if I'm completely impartial. My son likes it but does think it's pretty corny and I get that, so I have a feeling there'd be a generation gap on where to rank it.

As to the second part, I won't deny I've been vigorous in defending my opinion. I don't think TDKR is the worst CBM, but I do believe it's the most overrated, my definition of overrated meaning it got critical praise at the time but the film is IMO the worst of the three, and one of if not Nolan's worst film to date, and I'd wager Dunkirk will be 1000 times better.

I'll just leave it at that, I think people have grown tired of what has become banter between mostly me and two other people.

 

[The Joker]

Dude, you are still the only person who is freaking out about Rises, and now bringing it up in a conversation completely unrelated to that third Nolan film.

Exactly.

And that's what I think people get annoyed at. Arguing your point is one thing. Pretending your point is fact is another.

Bingo. That nonsense about hardly ayone knowing Hathaway played Catwoman is a prime example of that.