Age of Ultron The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - - - - - Part 51

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What I understood was Marvel wanted the cave scenes, Joss didnt. Joss wanted the farm scenes, Marvel didnt. Marvel would only allow Joss to put in the Farm scenes if he also put in the Cave scenes.

No. Whedon wanted both farm & cave (the original cave sequence was much more involved & sound like it would have been really cool), Marvel wanted neither, but they came to a compromise of cutting the cave and keeping the farm.

It seems Whedons editors agreed with him, saying you can't just have Thor
disappear for part of the movie and then come back telling everyone he figured it out, that you have to show where he goes.
So a little bit of the cave sequence was out back in.
 
Hopefully Whedon's airing of grievances empowers The Russos, Derrickson and Gunn to stand up to the suits in the future. Anything to prevent this again.
Not going to respond to my post?
Yeah, you.

Saying artists don't matter. Goes to show some people don't understand filmmaking at all.

No one has said "artists don't matter". Again with the straw-man argument. You are missing the point entirely.
 
Not going to respond to my post?


No one has said "artists don't matter". Again with the straw-man argument. You are missing the point entirely.

hafizbat said:
Kevin Feige is far more important than any one director or "artist", no matter how talented they are.

This dude would rather have Feige direct everything. Too bad the guy couldn't direct a Home Depot commercial.

As for you straw-man arguments, tell me with a straight face after Whedon's venting that the studio's meddling didn't cause this.

5y5u1.jpg


Three years ago there was no venting on Whedon's part. There's a reason for his venting now and that's the point you are missing.
 
Hit after hit? This is the fifth time the material was compromised by their meddling. First it was TIH, then IM2, then Thor 2, then AOU and without Wright I'm expecting Ant-Man to be another Thor 2.

They all make money, but my concern is about quality. I can't support a studio that compromises quality for a "checklist".

Marvel: "James, we need that Thanos scene in there."
Gunn: "Yeah, but it kinda doesn't fit and it weakens Ronan."
Marvel: "Doesn't matter. We need that scene in there."
Gunn: "Can't we just hint that he's working for Thanos?"
Marvel: "No."

^sounds like a real pleasant experience for Gunn.

alright then, don't support them....peace
 
Picard, IIRC Joss came in to TA very late in the game, so Feige and co. were largely guiding that movie till Joss did a once over on the script and took over directorial duties. Also, TWS and GOTG kinda throw a wrench in your idea that studio interference is a pattern. For all we know studio interference could've saved some of these films from being worse than they were.

Nobody bowls a perfect game. Every studio and director has mis-steps. In the end, the best products come from successful collaborations, which Marvel seems to have found with guys like James Gunn and the Russo brothers.
 
PS is pulling his "my opinion is the correct one, I can't believe people don't understand what I do" that he did on the Vision/Adam Warlock debate.

PS, you do know that none of us here know what really goes on behind the scenes? The stuff you write is just conjecture, but you pretend it's fact. I suggest you soften your tone, that kind of attitude doesn't go well on these boards.
 
For the record, James Gunn has stated that once he found incorporating Thanos into GOTG difficult, Marvel said he could just remove him completely, but Gunn told them he wanted to give it a shot anyway.
 
Not going to respond to my post?


No one has said "artists don't matter". Again with the straw-man argument. You are missing the point entirely.

I think that's true on both sides. It is both true that most studios mess with their artists' work. It's also true that this affects quality negatively, generally. This is still true at Marvel studios. Pointing out that the movies still do well and are successful doesn't address this. After all, whose to say that the movie wouldn't do even better without their meddling? I certainly would've enjoyed a Thanos-less GotG or a Cave-full AoU more. I think we all would have enjoyed a SHIELD-less IM2 more. Even to say that they have a checklist and nothing more (item 3: don't have farm scenes?), doesn't negate the idea that that checklist, or perhaps the inflexibility of it, takes quality away from films for the sake of connecting it to the larger story of the MCU. You reducing the reality of the executive-mandated weaknesses of this movie to "Executives are evil and the MCU is ruined!" is just as much a strawman as reducing your point, that the MCU is successful despite, or perhaps because of it's quality-reducing meddling to "artists don't matter."

Now, some directors are fine. Gunn is a great example of someone who takes Marvel Studios making his movie worse and shrugs and continues on. That's the kind of attitude you need as a director, to work with Marvel. They're going to come in, ask you do make a poor decision for your story, and not take no for an answer. Moreso than other studios, judging by how many take umbridge with MS and not any other studio. Without knowing how badly they're going to gut your movie, it's impossible to know beforehand if you can handle that. Wright didn't know for nearly ten years that Marvel Studios were going to make him make the change that (in his opinion) weakened/gutted his film. It's possible those who've had good relationships so far, like the Russos had decisions that really didn't hurt the film. Cutting out Arnim Zola walking didn't actually hurt Cap 2, it helped it really. This may not be true in the future, as we've seen with Whedon. After all, being told to cut Wasp didn't hurt Avengers one bit either, actually made it stronger. The rarity of return directors and the increasing use of newcomers are further indicators that being a director for Marvel Studios is especially difficult.

A better counter would be pointing out how those weaknesses and meddling are necessary to connect the universe and make everything more successful overall, even if it does sometimes lower the quality. A less credible point might be that their changes make things better just as often as worse and we just don't know. Or you could just go crazy and say you liked all the SHIELD in IM2, or Thanos making Ronan cooler, or Malkeith being underdeveloped made him more mysterious, or some other outlandish minority opinion, and stick to it. Or you could just continue the ad hominem attacks. Whatever. It's your world.

alright then, don't support them....peace
Throw the baby out with the bathwater? If you love something, you don't just walk away because someone makes a mistake. You tell them to correct the mistake. It's only after they've proven that they don't give a crap about the quality of it that you stop supporting them.
 
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This dude would rather have Feige direct everything. Too bad the guy couldn't direct a Home Depot commercial.
That's not what he said, nor what he meant. Again, you are almost deliberately missing the point.

As for you straw-man arguments, tell me with a straight face after Whedon's venting that the studio's meddling didn't cause this.


Three years ago there was no venting on Whedon's part. There's a reason for his venting now and that's the point you are missing.

No I understand why he is venting, but you are also conveniently forgetting that Whedon has continually called this movie "his baby". This is the most Whedon-esque installment in the MCU by a long shot. Marvel had some things they wanted him to get done, but the movie was already packed to the brim with Whedon's touch.
To that end, you are making huge assumptions and logical gaps in saying that Marvel meddling caused the RT meter for AoU to go down. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, to support that claim. Iron Man 2 I won't argue with, I've even heard Fiege lament about things he'd like to do different with that movie, but that was when they were still a young studio trying to figure out how to build a universe.
Also, I'd like to point out that you are literally pointing to a 75% on RT, a certified fresh score, and trying to paint it out like a huge travesty that could have been avoided if Marvel had let Whedon do his thing :hehe:
The movie is certified fresh, enjoyed by audiences and critics alike, and it was never going to be the smash hit the first one was. Just let go of this idea that Marvel stifles creativity and artistic vision because without their forward thinking, we wouldn't have these heroes we grew up loving being the highest grossing movie franchise of all time.
 
BTW, I love how PS says "everyone agrees AoU is the inferior film" and then in his post of the RT %'s the audience rating for AoU, vs. A1 is roughly the same.
 
For the record, James Gunn has stated that once he found incorporating Thanos into GOTG difficult, Marvel said he could just remove him completely, but Gunn told them he wanted to give it a shot anyway.

I'm glad he worked that out too. I think Thanos was extremely important, because of Gamora and Nebula and to explain why they would be working with Ronan.
 
PS is pulling his "my opinion is the correct one, I can't believe people don't understand what I do" that he did on the Vision/Adam Warlock debate.

PS, you do know that none of us here know what really goes on behind the scenes? The stuff you write is just conjecture, but you pretend it's fact. I suggest you soften your tone, that kind of attitude doesn't go well on these boards.

What are you a mod, now? Here to tell me its wrong to support Whedon in his plight with studio meddling?

There's no conjecture in those RT scores for sequels to critically acclaimed blockbusters that suffered from studio interference. Btw, that audience rating for AOU has half the votes the first film has. Expect that percentage to lower as more people chime in.

Also, Whedon has revealed what goes on behind the scenes as have others in the past. You're whole "we don't know what goes on..." argument gets thrown out the window every time Whedon or Wright or Gunn or Favreau speak out on the studio's faults.
 
Sometimes studio interference works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes you make great movies sometimes you don't.

The MCU directors are brought in to COLLABORATE. MS has a plan laid down, some things the directors can bring in to the project, and if the studio likes it go for it! if they don't tough ****. Directors sign on knowing this is the deal, some play ball and make great films some can't deal and make decent films that could be better.
 
I think that's true on both sides. It is both true that most studios mess with their artists' work. It's also true that this affects quality negatively, generally. This is still true at Marvel studios. Pointing out that the movies still do well and are successful doesn't address this. After all, whose to say that the movie wouldn't do even better without their meddling? I certainly would've enjoyed a Thanos-less GotG or a Cave-full AoU more. I think we all would have enjoyed a SHIELD-less IM2 more. Even to say that they have a checklist and nothing more (item 3: don't have farm scenes?), doesn't negate the idea that that checklist, or perhaps the inflexibility of it, takes quality away from films for the sake of connecting it to the larger story of the MCU. You reducing the reality of the executive-mandated weaknesses of this movie to "Executives are evil and the MCU is ruined!" is just as much a strawman as reducing your point, that the MCU is successful despite, or perhaps because of it's quality-reducing meddling to "artists don't matter."

Now, some directors are fine. Gunn is a great example of someone who takes Marvel Studios making his movie worse and shrugs and continues on. That's the kind of attitude you need as a director, to work with Marvel. They're going to come in, ask you do make a poor decision for your story, and not take no for an answer. Moreso than other studios, judging by how many take umbridge with MS and not any other studio. Without knowing how badly they're going to gut your movie, it's impossible to know beforehand if you can handle that. Wright didn't know for nearly ten years that Marvel Studios were going to make him make the change that (in his opinion) weakened/gutted his film. It's possible those who've had good relationships so far, like the Russos had decisions that really didn't hurt the film. Cutting out Arnim Zola walking didn't actually hurt Cap 2, it helped it really. This may not be true in the future, as we've seen with Whedon. After all, being told to cut Wasp didn't hurt Avengers one bit either, actually made it stronger. The rarity of return directors and the increasing use of newcomers are further indicators that being a director for Marvel Studios is especially difficult.

A better counter would be pointing out how those weaknesses and meddling are necessary to connect the universe and make everything more successful overall, even if it does sometimes lower the quality. A less credible point might be that their changes make things better just as often as worse and we just don't know. Or you could just go crazy and say you liked all the SHIELD in IM2, or Thanos making Ronan cooler, or Malkeith being underdeveloped made him more mysterious, or some other outlandish minority opinion, and stick to it. Or you could just continue the ad hominem attacks. Whatever. It's your world.


Throw the baby out with the bathwater? If you love something, you don't just walk away because someone makes a mistake. You tell them to correct the mistake. It's only after they've proven that they don't give a crap about the quality of it that you stop supporting them.

Finally. Someone with common sense arrives with a stellar post.
 
Hit after hit? This is the fifth time the material was compromised by their meddling. First it was TIH, then IM2, then Thor 2, then AOU and without Wright I'm expecting Ant-Man to be another Thor 2.

They all make money, but my concern is about quality. I can't support a studio that compromises quality for a "checklist".

Marvel: "James, we need that Thanos scene in there."
Gunn: "Yeah, but it kinda doesn't fit and it weakens Ronan."
Marvel: "Doesn't matter. We need that scene in there."
Gunn: "Can't we just hint that he's working for Thanos?"
Marvel: "No."

^sounds like a real pleasant experience for Gunn.

It seems to me like you guys are talking right past each other and are taking black and white positions without even really knowing exactly what did and didn't go on. We've had some indications about what happened in general, but I think you're working with a lot of suppositions.

First off Kevin Feige would be nowhere is he didn't get good artists working for MCU. That includes the cast, directors, writers, etc. That isn't in dispute. Secondly, if you are going to create a cohesive universe, someone has to plot the direction of said universe. I think that can be done WITHOUT interfering with the creativity of the director. If people are really looking for a way to work together, my experience tells me that they'll find a way.

IMO, "IF" Kevin said "You can have this or this, but you can't have both", that would constitute the kind of interference I'm talking about above. Why? Because if the director can chose one or the other scene, it can't be straying from the creation of a cohesive universe. If Kevin were to say "No. We can't do that because......", then that, IMO might be a reasonable "interference" as there has to be a road map of where things are going.

So, let's all relax and stop :bdh: :cwink:
 
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Honestly, for the most part the Marvel meddling has produced good results. Iron Man 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Avengers: Age of Ultron would not have felt as connected if the directors completely had their way, and that is what I enjoy most in the MCU - the feeling that something bigger is at work.

So if Wright left because he absolutely did not want to connect stuff that much then in my opinion it's probably for the best as far as the overall MCU is concerned.

I get the complaining about Thor: The Dark World (I would have liked to see Malekith and the Dark Elves fleshed out and see the movie get about 15-20 more mins of screen time) but I still view it as a great film that could have been better. The Incredible Hulk is as good as it can be IMO, I think Marvel made the right calls on that one.
 
BTW, I love how PS says "everyone agrees AoU is the inferior film" and then in his post of the RT %'s the audience rating for AoU, vs. A1 is roughly the same.

I don't get that impression at all either.

I'm glad he worked that out too. I think Thanos was extremely important, because of Gamora and Nebula and to explain why they would be working with Ronan.
Really? Even better job then Gunn, that was my favorite scene in the movie!
 
At least Feige hasn't demanded that there be giant spider constructs in every Marvel movie. Seems we've been on a pretty darn good streak for the most part.
 
What are you a mod, now? Here to tell me its wrong to support Whedon in his plight with studio meddling?

There's no conjecture in those RT scores for sequels to critically acclaimed blockbusters that suffered from studio interference. Btw, that audience rating for AOU has half the votes the first film has. Expect that percentage to lower as more people chime in.

Also, Whedon has revealed what goes on behind the scenes as have others in the past. You're whole "we don't know what goes on..." argument gets thrown out the window every time Whedon or Wright or Gunn or Favreau speak out on the studio's faults.

No one said you were wrong to support Whedon. What is wrong is you taking a combative attitude on stuff that's complete speculation on your part. You did it on the Vision thread, and you got a warning, and now you're doing it here.

And sorry we don't know what goes on. We know what the media tells us and even having quotes from the directors is only one side of the story.
 
I think I prefer the complex film (AOU) to A1 (a more straight fwd popcorn movie). I loved A1 but what I wanted from AOU was a more layered/intricate experience that posed questions and had cool ideas while expanding the Avengers MCU.
 
Really? Even better job then Gunn, that was my favorite scene in the movie!

I just mean that I'm glad Thanos was in GoTG. Especially when Thanos makes the comment about "my favorite daughter Gamora" infront of Nebula. I think that will be a very important comment for things to come later down the road.
 
I just mean that I'm glad Thanos was in GoTG. Especially when Thanos makes the comment about "my favorite daughter Gamora" infront of Nebula. I think that will be a very important comment for things to come later down the road.
I am glad as well, I guess my response was more in reply to the post that you quoted.
 
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