Age of Ultron The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - - - - - Part 51

[MahvelBaby!]

i'm pretty sure everyone with any sense of reality... knows and understands it's a massive group effort from every side... not one... it's not all fiege, and it's certainly not all the directors...

it's Fiege and the producers, the directors, the writers, the actors.... that's what has shaped the MCU... to think it's one side or another is completely ignorant.

The producers higher all of the people below to tell the story they want to tell...

The Writers bring the stories and dialogue to the table

The Actors bring the characters to life

and the Directors direct the actors, organize the shots, the emotion, and collaborate with the writers...

Films of this magnitude are MASSIVE undertakings.. and its incredibly ignorant to assume it's not a group effort.

not only that but making great films is hard work, not every film is going to be perfect, 5 films that aren't as good as others out of 11 is freaking stellar!

 

[Joeyjojo72]

i'm pretty sure everyone with any sense of reality... knows and understands it's a massive group effort from every side... not one... it's not all fiege, and it's certainly not all the directors...

it's Fiege and the producers, the directors, the writers, the actors.... that's what has shaped the MCU... to think it's one side or another is completely ignorant.

The producers higher all of the people below to tell the story they want to tell...

The Writers bring the stories and dialogue to the table

The Actors bring the characters to life

and the Directors direct the actors, organize the shots, the emotion, and collaborate with the writers...

Films of this magnitude are MASSIVE undertakings.. and its incredibly ignorant to assume it's not a group effort.

Big budget tentpole filmmaking is (by far) the most collaborative art form ever conceived. "Incredibly ignorant" doesn't quite cover it.

 

[connor_in]

Here....

Let me just get this out of here...

Now maybe we can all settle down some of the ongoing quibbling?


HAVE A NICE DAY !!!

 

[Webfoot Hero]

As for Whedon quitting Twitter, I had a feeling initially it was so he could work in quiet and it sounds like I was right. Whedon is one of those types that goes off into his own little world when writing and Twitter was definitely one of those sources of outside noise that doesn't help his writing process. I don't really blame him since Twitter and other social media sites are filled with a bunch of angry, raging people who get keyboard courage while saying things they wouldn't otherwise say or do if they met that person for real.

 

[Belmont]

Hello SHH. Finally decided to come out of lurking and into the forums to give my 2 cents about Avengers 2.

I really enjoyed the movie --- A LOT more than the first one. My biggest qualm about the entire movie is how Ultron was so easily defeated after getting his Vibranium body. I felt like it fell short. Still loved the movie though especially when they triple teamed Ultron. It was magic!

 

[InCali]

Hello SHH. Finally decided to come out of lurking and into the forums to give my 2 cents about Avengers 2.

I really enjoyed the movie --- A LOT more than the first one. My biggest qualm about the entire movie is how Ultron was so easily defeated after getting his Vibranium body. I felt like it fell short. Still loved the movie though especially when they triple teamed Ultron. It was magic!

Glad you liked it. I liked it better than TA also. I don't really agree with you regarding Ultron's defeat. The interesting thing is that

Spoiler

only by the three of them teaming up were they able to defeat Ultron and the really interesting thing is that through Vision/Jarvis, Ultron played a role in his own demise.

Boy, you sure picked a, well, an interesting day to pop your head up!!!

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Big budget tentpole filmmaking is (by far) the most collaborative art form ever conceived. "Incredibly ignorant" doesn't quite cover it.

does "extra incredibly super ignorant" cover it better?t:

 

[hafizbat]

This made me literally LOL, especially after all the nonsense I've seen this week.

 

[Tony Stark]

This made me literally LOL, especially after all the nonsense I've seen this week.

That is hilarious!

 

[DrCosmic]

Maybe you aren't as familiar with Picard's posting history as I am, and maybe that's wherein the confusion lies. Because I still don't see how I've resorted to ad hominem. The only person I feel I have been "characterizing" has been Picard, but I'm far from the only person who has taken issues with his posts.
But my larger point with you was that I disagree that the creative decisions from Marvel are detrimental to the movies. You described it as such, and your whole post did nothing to undo that. Here is your exact quote:

It's possible those who've had good relationships so far, like the Russos had decisions that really didn't hurt the film. Cutting out Arnim Zola walking didn't actually hurt Cap 2, it helped it really.

There's me, saying what you said I didn't say.

Am I wrong for taking it the way I did?
I think Thanos did nothing to take away from Guardians, it was actually Fiege's idea that Captain America: TFA take place almost entirely in WWII despite multiple people's insistence other wise, and it was also the Marvel brass' idea to dismantle SHIELD. Do you understand why I disagreed with the notion that Marvel "guts" these film makers movies?
Now I'm not saying they are above making poor decisions. Iron Man 2 alone proves that. But I feel you are over-simplifying things.

So yeah, you're "wrong" for selectively reading my posts. I don't understand why Marvel making good decisions in some cases has any bearing on the existence of "bad" decisions they've made and the effects of those decisions. They made TFA better and they made Thor 2/IM2/AoU worse. They put the success of the overall franchise over the quality of any given movie. If they didn't, they'd probably be out of a job.

What's complicated?

And that's just the thing, they don't affect the film in an "appreciable" way in my eyes. Like I've said before, a two minute scene here or there that, at the worst, feels disjointed, is not enough to get me upset, especially if the rest of the film is as good as the Marvel films have been recently. Does that make sense? I feel more than comfortable saying "I don't see" problems that have been "explicitly detailed" when the problem can be boiled down to "this two minute scene feels like it serves the cinematic universe as a whole more so than this movie I am watching now", which is something I only really felt in Iron Man 2 when it was more than two minutes.

Well, that's more of the straw man. The problem doesn't boil down to that.

My problem with Guardians of the Galaxy, for instance, with that "two minute scene" with Thanos and Ronan is that it makes the characters laughable, even after that scene, and thus less interesting to me for the duration of the MCU. For me, whenever Thanos shows up I roll my eyes. My kids don't see the problem, because they don't expect (or notice) most social dynamics. My girlfriend doesn't see it as a problem, because to her these are cartoon characters, that can't be taken seriously anyway. Only me and my comic book nerd friends see it as a problem because we see these characters on the level with Darth Vader, Hal and Hannibal Lecter. To see them handled with all the weight and subtlety of Snidely Whiplash and Mandark the Magnificent, well, it's a bit sad, really.

There are other problems that come up with the checklist, from decreasing the hero's agency and relevance in his own story to simply requiring plot points that are less interesting. These are appreciable problems. Whether you as an individual appreciate them or not is your own affair, of course.

Someone pointed out earlier that some of Marvel's checklists are, indeed, pretty flexible. Once Gunn expressed trepidations about shoehorning Thanos into his movie, Marvel backed down from it, but Gunn took the challenge anyway and, in my opinion, the film benefitted from it.
Could Marvel stand to back down from certain things every now and then? Sure, but I don't really know. None of us do. But given that we know nothing about what goes on behind closed doors, I'd rather take Marvel's approach of laying out a framework for the film makers to play within as opposed to some of their competitors approach, which feels more like "throw whatever on the wall and see what sticks" or "just do what you want from movie to movie, it doesn't really matter".

But we do know several things about what go on behind closed doors. We have dozens of first hand accounts and we can see the effect and compare it with the effects of other studios. I think that's what's really interesting about your point of view, you seem to be really selective in what you accept as reality, even in the face of documentation.

I think Gunn is playing it smart. He knows when you give in you get more power later. That's probably how he got to the point where they backed off the Thanos requirement. He also has a little more lee way in that he's out in space away from everyone. Even the way he publicly goes on record with the moderate response whenever there's a controversy on this issue is brilliant politics. He probably means every word, too, but it's also perfect hollywood political maneuvering.

I also reject any "either/or" false dichotomy along with the ad hominem and strawman. Marvel can improve their framework's flexibility without having to choose between running off talented directors and "just do what you want."

It has nothing to do with dismissing the "value of other people", it's seeing the vitriol aimed at a movie studio for supposedly stifling the creative vision of someone and condemning them for it. My posts have been specifically aimed at Picard, because he has taken umbrage with several minor details about this movie to the point where the mods had to apparently step in and tell him to keep it in line.
For what it's worth I'm at work right now, and while we are having a slow day, I haven't been able to spend an abundance of time picking apart this debate and giving it my full attention so if there are details I'm missing or bits I'm leaving out, I apologize.

If mods give you warnings for nitpicking a film, then maybe I'm on the wrong forum.

All movie studios stifle creativity. Not supposedly, it's literally their job. In order to further the idea that they don't you've been using rhetoric that ignores a lot of stuff that's well known. Yes Picard is out to lunch... who cares? We can still talk about what's wrong with Marvel movies. It doesn't mean there's nothing right with them, far from it, but, as I said before, good is the enemy of great.

 

[TheVision]

"everyone creates the thing they dread" See Tony, Ultron and Vision

Scarlet Witch can see into the future I think, so wouldnt she know

Spoiler

QS was gonna give his life?

 

[Belmont]

Glad you liked it. I liked it better than TA also. I don't really agree with you regarding Ultron's defeat. The interesting thing is that

Spoiler

only by the three of them teaming up were they able to defeat Ultron and the really interesting thing is that through Vision/Jarvis, Ultron played a role in his own demise.

Boy, you sure picked a, well, an interesting day to pop your head up!!!

Well we just had a network outage at work so nothing else to do lol

 

[Belmont]

"everyone creates the thing they dread" See Tony, Ultron and Vision

Scarlet Witch can see into the future I think, so wouldnt she know

Spoiler

QS was gonna give his life?

Spoiler

I think it comes down to her doing what comes naturally -- trusting her kin. I do not think for a second that she has thought about anything that would warrant her to tap into his mind.

 

[antsman41]

Why didn't Ultron ever take over Tony's suits... seems like the loss of identity and sacrifice of his 'power' would have worked better here instead of IM3.

 

[Flint Marko]

There's me, saying what you said I didn't say.



So yeah, you're "wrong" for selectively reading my posts. I don't understand why Marvel making good decisions in some cases has any bearing on the existence of "bad" decisions they've made and the effects of those decisions. They made TFA better and they made Thor 2/IM2/AoU worse. They put the success of the overall franchise over the quality of any given movie. If they didn't, they'd probably be out of a job.

What's complicated?

I guess you missed the part where I said I was at work perusing the forum on a slow day? So it's "wrong" that I'm a little preoccupied and not giving my full attention to a debate on the internet over superhero movies with a stranger?

For what it's worth I'm at work right now, and while we are having a slow day, I haven't been able to spend an abundance of time picking apart this debate and giving it my full attention so if there are details I'm missing or bits I'm leaving out, I apologize.

Selective reading indeed.

Well, that's more of the straw man. The problem doesn't boil down to that.

My problem with Guardians of the Galaxy, for instance, with that "two minute scene" with Thanos and Ronan is that it makes the characters laughable, even after that scene, and thus less interesting to me for the duration of the MCU. For me, whenever Thanos shows up I roll my eyes. My kids don't see the problem, because they don't expect (or notice) most social dynamics. My girlfriend doesn't see it as a problem, because to her these are cartoon characters, that can't be taken seriously anyway. Only me and my comic book nerd friends see it as a problem because we see these characters on the level with Darth Vader, Hal and Hannibal Lecter. To see them handled with all the weight and subtlety of Snidely Whiplash and Mandark the Magnificent, well, it's a bit sad, really.

I don't quite understand this because you aren't really clear here. Why is that scene laughable? I found it to be pretty engaging, and I loved seeing Thanos for the first time on the big screen. What did you not like about it? How does that undermine the characters or sour the rest of the movie for you? I'm sorry, nothing here makes me understand why that two minute scene would have any sort of long lasting effect that would bring the film down for you.

But we do know several things about what go on behind closed doors. We have dozens of first hand accounts and we can see the effect and compare it with the effects of other studios. I think that's what's really interesting about your point of view, you seem to be really selective in what you accept as reality, even in the face of documentation.

I've acknowledged, both here and elsewhere, that Marvel has stepped on several film maker's toes in the past. They are known for their strong-arm tactics, both creatively and financially. Please, enlighten me, where have I ever said otherwise? Don't put words in my mouth.
If you are referring to my "we don't know what goes on behind closed doors comment", that was referring to the example of Marvel backing down and how flexible their "checklist" can be in certain situations. We have no idea what they've tried to force on film makers in the past that never made it to the final cut, like with Thanos' addition in Guardians. That was my point with that statement.

I also reject any "either/or" false dichotomy along with the ad hominem and strawman. Marvel can improve their framework's flexibility without having to choose between running off talented directors and "just do what you want."

Again, show me where I said Marvel's process could not be improved. Please, point me to where I said they are infallible and everything about their process is beyond perfect. That wasn't the point of my statement to begin with. I really do feel this is a case of, again, you putting words in my mouth.

If mods give you warnings for nitpicking a film, then maybe I'm on the wrong forum.

He is guilty of doing far more than that.

All movie studios stifle creativity. Not supposedly, it's literally their job. In order to further the idea that they don't you've been using rhetoric that ignores a lot of stuff that's well known. Yes Picard is out to lunch... who cares? We can still talk about what's wrong with Marvel movies. It doesn't mean there's nothing right with them, far from it, but, as I said before, good is the enemy of great.

I happen to think a sizable amount of the MCU movies are great, or close to it. I also never said we can't talk about what's wrong with the Marvel movies. I'm really beginning to wonder what your whole point is with this, because I really don't see the point of contention here. A poster with a disruptive history came in here and said Marvel "ruined" this movie and several others with their interference, and I don't believe that to be the case, so I said otherwise. Now I'm in this hairsplitting debate with you clarifying things that I never said for no clear reason.

 

[InCali]

Well we just had a network outage at work so nothing else to do lol

Shoulda had me there. I fix that sort of thing for a living.

 

[BigThor]

Check my Ultron vs Loki comparison thread out if you guys don't mind.

Thanks ahead of time!

 

[HelloImBen]

"everyone creates the thing they dread" See Tony, Ultron and Vision

Scarlet Witch can see into the future I think, so wouldnt she know

Spoiler

QS was gonna give his life?

Spoiler

Maybe just that she can't see literally everything? she just gets certain visions? Just thinking out loud.

 

[PunyGod]

///

 

[The_Manhunter]

Here....

Let me just get this out of here...

Now maybe we can all settle down some of the ongoing quibbling?


HAVE A NICE DAY !!!

http://www.ultraimg.com/images/tumblr_nnllz3YdPB1qc2hv6o1_250.gif

 

[TheVision]

I thought that Tonys suits werent accessible by Ultron. He wouldve had separate access codes etc so noone could get in after the Vanko incident.

Joss couldnt rewrite history. Shane Black had come up with his ideas first, so Joss wasnt gonna copy it. Gotta be realistic on this.

I think Joss chose not to do certain things in the movie. Like having Ultron do a cyber attack was one way he couldve gone, but thats not what he wanted to focus on.

 

[C. Lee]

If mods give you warnings for nitpicking a film, then maybe I'm on the wrong forum.

As has been said many times in every forum over the years.......people do not get warnings for nitpicking a film....they get warnings for HOW they nitpick a film. Some people don't know how to be civil and respectful of other's opinions.

 

[AndrewGilkison]

I think Joss should've made it clear that Ultron didn't want to do a cyber attack or anything like that and had that extinction level event in mind all the time. Having Jarvis thwart Ultron's attempts to access the Internet just kept weakening Ultron as a threat.

 

[TheVision]

"He's not a creature of logic -- he's a robot who's genuinely disturbed" - Joss

Hes almost like a child that steals a car in the movie. Noone knows what hes gonna do, probably not even Ultron. If he was logical/typical he would do something expected but he doesnt.

Also, To ULTRON The Avengers are the villains of the movie. So if youre a good guy you dont act evil and scary, you just try to get rid of your enemy.

 

[Vartha]

LOVE these kinds of tv spots with the 3d words in them
[YT]hoRFemtsQO4[/YT]