Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 2

[WeatherWizard99]

Yeah !!! what happened to ross anyway !?

 

[Endeavor]

Yeah !!! what happened to ross anyway !?

He's on my sh!% list. I'm going to sick Banner on him.

Last we hear from him he's calling Tony to tell him about the Avengers breaking out of The Raft, but Tony puts him on hold

 

[WebForBrains]

Does anyone else notice that when Rhodes falls out of the sky that it looks and feels similar to when tony fell out of space in A1 ?

 

[Chatote]

What I find ironic is Stark's reaction to the lady's story about her dead son in this movie - but in AOU he only had a quick "This wasn't my life" reaction when the Maximoff twins mentioned the Stark Industry missiles that killed their family and left the two of them waiting to die for days.

As I see it, back then, he wasn't.... Traumatized enough (I'm not sure I should use this word). I mean, he had had time to accept that it was mainly Obadiah's fault. Sokovia, however, was his, and it is much more difficult to deal with it.

Steve, in spite of his physical perfection, is still flawed. He's human.
He makes mistakes.
Just like Tony has made mistakes, and those have contributed to his growth as a character...
This mistake is going to point the characters in interesting paths in the coming movies. It will probably end up embellishing Steve and Tony's characterizations and friendship that much more in the future. Cap has already taken the first step in mending things.

That's why I don't like him. He makes mistakes, but he always acts as if he had the best answer, the best solution (the safest hands are still our own I mean, they blew a building and he's still like "no, it's ok, we're good on our own."
I can't see how there's gonna be a friendship between Tony and the avengers, especially with Steve, Bucky, Clint and Natasha anymore. Truce, yes. Working together, why not, for the world. But friendship, it implies trust, and I think it's pretty much impossible, sadly.

Does anyone else notice that when Rhodes falls out of the sky that it looks and feels similar to when tony fell out of space in A1 ?

But there wasn't a hulk to save him.... It may sound horrible, but I'm quite relieved. In the trailers I thought he was dead. Imagine how Tony would have been then.

 

[TalismanRing]

Steve didn't know was it Bucky that murdered Howard and Maria, just that it was HYDRA. It was something he suspected and didn't want to know because I don't think he could deal with the horror of it being true which is why I think he didn't tell Tony because then it would make it more possible.

Even if had told Tony earlier though I'm not sure that would have counteracted or lessened the trauma and pain of seeing that horrific video and their brutal murders with their murderer in the same room. Tony understandably saw red to the point where he was beyond reason. Steve understandably just couldn't let him murder Bucky though he did not want to hurt Tony more.

As for trust Tony and Bruce went behind everyone's backs and made Ultron then did it again and made Vision and they were still considered part of the team even after they had to destroy a country to save the planet.

The gov'ts in the MCU have already shown they are riddled with corruption and not to be trusted. The WSC tried to nuke NYC. They played with the tesserect and basically invited Thanos and alien invasion to the earth. They had Project Insight set up to murder thousands of possible suspects and they were riddled along with SHIELD by HYDRA. And Secretary Ross is the guy who created the Hulk and the Abomination in his quest to have an army of super soldiers. These are safer hands?

Even so Steve was ready to sign the Accords with caveats until the Wanda being held under house arrest stuff.

 

[Endeavor]

That's why I don't like him. He makes mistakes, but he always acts as if he had the best answer, the best solution (the safest hands are still our own I mean, they blew a building and he's still like "no, it's ok, we're good on our own."
I can't see how there's gonna be a friendship between Tony and the avengers, especially with Steve, Bucky, Clint and Natasha anymore. Truce, yes. Working together, why not, for the world. But friendship, it implies trust, and I think it's pretty much impossible, sadly.

But you just said:

progress comes with mistakes. Through the Ironman and avengers movies, we've seen how Tony has grown

Don't you think it's a double standard to like Tony, in spite of his mistakes, but disliking Steve because of them?
In light of how cocky Stark has always been, how can you fault Rogers for also being confident in his POV?
Wasn't it Tony who thought he knew better than anybody else when he built Ultron in the last Avengers movie?

 

[Chatote]

The thing is that... In my head, there's a difference, even though I can't really explain it. I think it's because in all of his movies, Tony has made mistakes on his own whereas we haven't seen the Captain making such big ones ( capable of killing a lot of people ). So it's mainly because Stark makes mistakes, yes, and he does do it behind their back during for Ultron, but he's a genius and he does it to help people. He genuinely did it to help. And he was the one to go in space. Plus, he's the only one without superpower or Shield's training.
The captain is... To used to be a soldier. He hasn't made a lot of mistakes yet, not as much. I think, with time, my vision of him is gonna changes, I hope so. I was disappointed because for me, he was supposed to incarn a lot of values which he has dropped in this movie.
And I don't fault Roger for being confident in his POV. Sorry if I wasn't clear. What made you think that?

 

[Endeavor]

And I don't fault Roger for being confident in his POV. Sorry if I wasn't clear. What made you think that?

Because you wrote this after you said you now disliked him:

but he always acts as if he had the best answer, the best solution

 

[Chatote]

Oh okay. I didn't formulate it in the right way. I don't dislike him for thinking is right but for not making mistakes. I just feel like, even if he was wrong, he wouldn't accept it. It's just the impression he gives me. Also, he talks about being a hero, friendship, sacrifice, ... But I feel like he has betrayed this when he devised the avengers and made them fight against each other.
I'm just even more confusing, aren't I?

 

[Solaire]

I came in as team Cap, came out team both... Both were right, both were wrong. it was very conflicting. Both made mistakes

Cap was wrong for not talking things out with Tony.. but Tony was also wrong for wanting a mind controlled man who couldn't help his actions dead.... both had issues with Reason.

I guess both are wrong but it just feels like Cap is more wrong. He isn't Tony's best friend but they saved the world together twice and saved eachothers lives here and there I bet. Just urks me seeing how he hid something like that from Tony.

I think everyone would react the way Tony did while some would do what Steve did. The video was pretty graphic, even I was kinda surprised it was that brutal when I saw the film.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Well technically Hill, Fury, Steve and Natasha ALL hid it from Tony. Steve had the best reason to hide it from Tony, to protect the only true family he had left (who is imo innocent).

 

[kingskipper28]

At what point does Tony say "I've been waiting a long time for this?" So he's basically saying he's hated Cap the entire time?

How does the first fight between Bucky and T'Challa (without his suit) go? Does T'Challa kick his ass?

 

[ScarlettW]

What I find ironic is Stark's reaction to the lady's story about her dead son in this movie - but in AOU he only had a quick "This wasn't my life" reaction when the Maximoff twins mentioned the Stark Industry missiles that killed their family and left the two of them waiting to die for days.

Not only that, but after destruction of a country, Tony decides to take a vacation with Pepper. I know they were rebuilding the country, but it's not something you should do while this is happening.

 

[Annuminas]

Steve didn't know was it Bucky that murdered Howard and Maria, just that it was HYDRA. It was something he suspected and didn't want to know because I don't think he could deal with the horror of it being true which is why I think he didn't tell Tony because then it would make it more possible.

Even if had told Tony earlier though I'm not sure that would have counteracted or lessened the trauma and pain of seeing that horrific video and their brutal murders with their murderer in the same room. Tony understandably saw red to the point where he was beyond reason. Steve understandably just couldn't let him murder Bucky though he did not want to hurt Tony more.

As for trust Tony and Bruce went behind everyone's backs and made Ultron then did it again and made Vision and they were still considered part of the team even after they had to destroy a country to save the planet.

The gov'ts in the MCU have already shown they are riddled with corruption and not to be trusted. The WSC tried to nuke NYC. They played with the tesserect and basically invited Thanos and alien invasion to the earth. They had Project Insight set up to murder thousands of possible suspects and they were riddled along with SHIELD by HYDRA. And Secretary Ross is the guy who created the Hulk and the Abomination in his quest to have an army of super soldiers. These are safer hands?

Even so Steve was ready to sign the Accords with caveats until the Wanda being held under house arrest stuff.

A lot of great points in here.

The thing with Tony- he creates his own problems half the time. IM2 villain- wronged by Starks. Avengers- Loki uses his tech to open the hole. IM3 villain became a villain after Tony humiliated him. He created Ultron!!! Behind everybody's back! Lucky accident that Vsion ended up okay...Oh, lets see in CA:WS he gave the Hydra death ships their propulsion engines. You can blame Ant-Man destruction indirectly on the Starks, since it was the Stark run SHIELD who attempted to steal Pym's formula, and drove Pym to hiding, creating conditions for Cross to come along. The Maximoffs joined Hydra to get back at Stark- so once more we can indirectly pin all the mayhem they caused--including bewitched Hulk smashing South Africa---on the Starks. Oh, and Howard fished out the tessaract. How much destruction is spared if he had left that alone? Basically the Starks are the direct or indirect cause of nearly everything that has gone bad in MCU. By rights, Tony should have been imprisoned for life.

Now let's look at Steve's history. Government turns him into a super soldier...and then has him selling bonds? Has Fury hiding things in Avengers, seees government try to nuke NYC. Works for ShIELD anyways, only to find its been infilitrated by HYDRA. He stops plot only to have US congress blame him. Trusts his Avenger buddies only to have 2 of them create a death robot.
If anything, Steve is being generous when he says "the safest hands are still OUR own" Without mincing words, it should read "the safest hands are still MY own"

Cap has every reason to not trust governments, but to be trusted by the world. And the knuckleheads that brought Abomination and Ultron have the chutzpah to tell him him bow to their authority. No. Steve Rogers is not the world's problem.

#TEAMCAP

 

[Herolee10]

Curious, for characters like Clint and Natasha who are just regular human beings who aren't aided by some advanced form of equipment, did the film make them feel like superhumans where they were able to hold their own against characters that they shouldn't normally have any chances of defeating?

One of my issues with AOU was how easy those two could take on Ultron's bots despite those things supposing to be stronger than average soldiers.

 

[Muze]

from my perspective, Scarlet Witch caused the events of Age of Ultron and Civil War.

 

[Muze]

In some ways it's a strange sequence because Cap warns him he could end up in prison or worse.

Scott spent all of his first own move working to finally earn the trust of his ex-wife and daughter and staying out of jail. Yet he's so quick about jeopardizing that for a group of people who has no affiliation to (other than Falcon) and no personal stakes.

by the end of Ant-Man, his ex and her new boyfriend/husband seem cool with Scott being a superhero. Scott probably doesn't see it as jeopardizing anything. he's Ant-Man to "earn that look in his daughter's eyes."

 

[Annuminas]

from my perspective, Scarlet Witch caused the events of Age of Ultron and Civil War.

Ahhh but Wanda went evil because of the painted words 'Stark Industries' on the side of a bomb. Still Tony's fault

But seriously, it's fun to have a thoughtful movie that explores motives, themes and isues beyond just "Evil guy wants everyone dead because screw the good guys!" Thanks Russos!

 

[Jake Cassidy]

I loved seeing Iron Man getting his arse kicked. He had it coming.

 

[jmc]

I'm not kidding when I say this. I thought one of the two was going to kill the other. Twice during the last fight I thought it could go either way.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Curious, for characters like Clint and Natasha who are just regular human beings who aren't aided by some advanced form of equipment, did the film make them feel like superhumans where they were able to hold their own against characters that they shouldn't normally have any chances of defeating?

One of my issues with AOU was how easy those two could take on Ultron's bots despite those things supposing to be stronger than average soldiers.

Hawkeye took The Vision on when he broke Scarlett Witch out of lockdown at the Avengers compound. It's not that he could've won, but it was the fact that he didn't even think twice about fighting him. He just went right at Vision.

That's a badass in my book.

 

[JtheDreamer]

I'm not kidding when I say this. I thought one of the was going to kill the other. Twice during the last fight I thought it could go either way.

Serious?

It never dawned on me at all that it could happen, even when Cap raised his shield at the end before coming down on his arc reactor.

 

[jmc]

Serious?

It never dawned on me at all that it could happen, even when Cap raised his shield at the end before coming down on his arc reactor.

Yeah I did, at the very least I thought one of them was going to be seriously injured. The emotions were high during that finale. Stark had cracked and Rogers was running on pure emotion.

 

[JtheDreamer]

by the end of Ant-Man, his ex and her new boyfriend/husband seem cool with Scott being a superhero. Scott probably doesn't see it as jeopardizing anything. he's Ant-Man to "earn that look in his daughter's eyes."

His wife specifically told him to stay out of jail. If he remained imprisoned on The Raft by the Secretary of State of our country you think they'd just gloss over that?

It's not consistent with the character that was written in his own movie, but for entertainment purposes it was fun watching him fight. He really doesn't have any reason to be there.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

There was not a chance in hell of that happening. I don't see how anyone could think that. Tony killing Bucky, on the other hand....