Civil War The Civil War "ANYTHING GOES" Thread - ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK - NO SPOILER TAGS REQ.! - Part 2

[dyl1dyl]

I'm digressing a bit but I'm confident that Crossbones won't be getting incarcerated anytime soon.

Haha, yeah. I know. Was saying that it could have been a nice way to do things. Lol, i was actually thinking through all the other villains in the MCU and I realize almost all are dead. haha

 

[Breyfogle Rules]

Hey Guys - Do they explain why Spidey's eyes dilate? Is there a practical reason?

 

[thorstone]

I think that if you're going into this movie already loving the Marvel film style then you're going to enjoy this movie. If not, then you are not going to love this movie. The very premise of this movie hinges upon you being in love with this Captain America. I felt absolutely nothing for Steve or Tony or anyone in this movie. It was popcorn and it fails at being good popcorn (it sputters out with no final battle against a big bad, and instead we get another fight with Captain and Iron Man).

They should have cut the first 30 minutes of the movie out. The movie doesn't really start until the bombing scene.

 

[SuperSanchez]

Hey Guys - Do they explain why Spidey's eyes dilate? Is there a practical reason?

I think Peter says something about the small lenses on his old suit helping with his spider sense or something, so the eyes being able to squint kinda of corresponds with that I guess.

 

[Jaxon]

Either way , he's not calling. It is hardly a clean slate , Stark relationship with half of the team has been damaged badly , god knows what thor & hulk will feel when they come back to earth and find their team dismantled and they have to register.

I think if they ended with Stark and Ross together with Ross going "Tony, beef up your arsenal and go and bring Cap and the others in, with Tony giving a nod" that would cement that. But it just showed us Tony essentially allowing Cap and others to escape and being OK with the explanation.

So there's no fracturing here. Thor and Hulk return and they all join up and shake hands again.

Marvel don't want their heroes to be at each others throats because each kid has a favourite and they don't want any of them to be a bad person and lose that audience member that way.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

I really loved Paul Rudd in this movie, even if it was for just a little bit. Makes me really excited for Ant-Man and The Wasp coming in a couple years.

"Something flew right in me!"

 

[DN91]

I think if they ended with Stark and Ross together with Ross going "Tony, beef up your arsenal and go and bring Cap and the others in, with Tony giving a nod" that would cement that. But it just showed us Tony essentially allowing Cap and others to escape and being OK with the explanation.

So there's no fracturing here. Thor and Hulk return and they all join up and shake hands again.

Marvel don't want their heroes to be at each others throats because each kid has a favourite and they don't want any of them to be a bad person and lose that audience member that way.

It's just a trial separation kind of deal. They can't bring the band back together due to the Accords, but when the time comes, Stark will be ready to assemble the team again.

 

[Breyfogle Rules]

I think Peter says something about the small lenses on his old suit helping with his spider sense or something, so the eyes being able to squint kinda of corresponds with that I guess.

Ok now I'm more confused. ANy other takers?

PS: Thx Sanchez. Appreciate the try

 

[marshal99]

I think that if you're going into this movie already loving the Marvel film style then you're going to enjoy this movie. If not, then you are not going to love this movie. The very premise of this movie hinges upon you being in love with this Captain America. I felt absolutely nothing for Steve or Tony or anyone in this movie. It was popcorn and it fails at being good popcorn (it sputters out with no final battle against a big bad, and instead we get another fight with Captain and Iron Man).

They should have cut the first 30 minutes of the movie out. The movie doesn't really start until the bombing scene.

You said it yourself , you don't care for any of the characters. Why are you even watching the movie ? Why are you watching the movie and then come here to whine about it ?

 

[DACrowe]

Yeah I don't know why some people keep saying that, the consequences of this movie are major. And in this phase it will make sense why the other characters don't show up in eachother's movies.

Btw why are most people assuming Cap and the others are staying in Wakanda? From what I understand it was only Bucky and the rest are going their own way.

The only relationship that seems badly damaged is that between Tony and Steve. Probably Bucky and everyone, but I don't see him ever "being an Avenger" anyway. And by the end of the movie, Tony and Steve at least have seemed to have come to an understanding if not a reconciliation.

In some ways, it is smart. The distance is not so large that they can't easily come back together. While it probably hovels this movie a little (and only a little), it sets the stage up for Infinity War quite easily.

My bigger issue with the film is that not until War Machine is shot out of the sky does it feel like this "has gotten personal." While the banter and dialogue is tense, the actual action scenes are pretty light-hearted and cheeky until that moment. Which is fine because I love the airport scene. Still, I do think the film could have turned the screws more than it did. Otherwise though, it is a nice wild ride.

 

[Wylie Times]

I think if they ended with Stark and Ross together with Ross going "Tony, beef up your arsenal and go and bring Cap and the others in, with Tony giving a nod" that would cement that. But it just showed us Tony essentially allowing Cap and others to escape and being OK with the explanation.

So there's no fracturing here. Thor and Hulk return and they all join up and shake hands again.

Marvel don't want their heroes to be at each others throats because each kid has a favourite and they don't want any of them to be a bad person and lose that audience member that way.

The hell are you talking about? Half of the team is literally on the run from the law.

Tony never wanted ANY of them in jail in the first place. The reason he made it a point to go after them was because he was he felt he'd be able to bring Cap and his crew in peacefully and it wouldn't result in anyone being seriously hurt.

Tony clearly doesn't trust Cap anymore, and even Cap acknowledges that. Just because Tony doesn't want to see the others in prison doesn't mean there's no rift or hurt feelings.

You're not going to see Falcon and Rhodey being friendly anytime soon. Vision and Rhodey likely aren't going to be on good terms either and the rest of the team isn't going to feel at that safe around him.

VIsion and Wanda relationship is clearly not going ot be the same after this.

Who knows what's going to happen to Natasha.

 

[marshal99]

The only relationship that seems badly damaged is that between Tony and Steve. Probably Bucky and everyone, but I don't see him ever "being an Avenger" anyway. And by the end of the movie, Tony and Steve at least have seemed to have come to an understanding if not a reconciliation.

In some ways, it is smart. The distance is not so large that they can't easily come back together. While it probably hovels this movie a little (and only a little), it sets the stage up for Infinity War quite easily.

My bigger issue with the film is that not until War Machine is shot out of the sky does it feel like this "has gotten personal." While the banter and dialogue is tense, the actual action scenes are pretty light-hearted and cheeky until that moment. Which is fine because I love the airport scene. Still, I do think the film could have turned the screws more than it did. Otherwise though, it is a nice wild ride.

In the airport , Team IronCap was only about capture and containment , not kill. i imagine Stark didn't expect resistance. When it got out of hand , widow ask stark in the airport whether it is what he wanted.

After getting locked up in a supermax prison for god knows how long they were there , you think the rest of teamcap will forgive stark just like that ? Clint make his point pretty clear when stark went there.

 

[DACrowe]

I just meant that not until it was down to only Tony, Cap and Bucky--and even then Tony is acting reasonable at first--they were all handling each other with kid gloves. And Falcon seems guilty over what happened to Rhodey. Sure, Clint and Scarlet Witch might have issues with Tony. But then again, I do not think Tony was ever close with either of them.

 

[Wylie Times]

In the airport , Team IronCap was only about capture and containment , not kill. i imagine Stark didn't expect resistance. When it got out of hand , widow ask stark in the airport whether it is what he wanted.

After getting locked up in a supermax prison for god knows how long they were there , you think the rest of teamcap will forgive stark just like that ? Clint make his point pretty clear when stark went there.

I felt really bad for Tony for most of this movie.

For most of the film Tony is doing everything he can to protect Cap. He tries to get in front of the Sokovia Accords, he pleads with Ross put Cap and Sam under his custody instead of just throwing them into jail, he begs Ross to let him and his team bring in Cap instead of sending a group of soldiers after, he them, he lies to Ross about Cap's whereabouts to protect him from Ross, and he doesn't alert Ross to Cap breaking the team out of prison.

Everything before the airport Fight is Tony begging and pleading with Cap to come to his senses because he KNOWS things are going to get worse.

Tony does everything he can to keep the team together and keep Cap from getting hurt and it results in his friend nearly being killed and he finds out Cap kept vital information about his parents death from him.

I came away from this film a much bigger fan of Tony Stark than I had been in the past.

 

[SuperSanchez]

Ok now I'm more confused. ANy other takers?

PS: Thx Sanchez. Appreciate the try

Watch this video
[YT]s8bmxHXntLs[/YT]
Skip to 3.22 it explains it there

 

[Maximum_Maximus]

This film made me hate the Captain. For me, Tony was right and the real... Hero.
1. Because of his break with Pepper, he's really devastated. Especially after IR3. And with what's happening to Rhodes, it's normal for him to be mad.
2. Because he's trying to make the avengers stay together, and Steve is break in the team. No one can see this else from Rhodes and Vision. Plus, Clint is a real jerk.
3. Because of the story with his parents. Steve is so stupid for keeping it to himself. Soooooo stupid.

Anyway, can't wait for them to regroup one more time and see how things are going to be between Tony and the team.

I was Team Cap before I saw the movie. I am still Team Cap. As for your argument:

1) I really feel for Tony at the beginning of the movie because things just keep getting worse for him, so I understand why he'd be mad.
2) I don't think Cap wants to break up the Avengers. He just don't want to sacrifice his ideology no matter what the outcome is. Steve has never been any less than real to himself and to others. Signing the accord would go against everything he stands for.
3) Keeping the secret may not be a wise thing to do in hindsight, but I believer very strongly that it's because Steve viewed Tony as his friend, and knowing how much it would hurt Tony he decided to keep it a secret. Besides it's not like Tony asked Steve and Steve lies about it. Keeping mum is not the same as telling a lie.

Too often people conform because it's the path of the least resistance and make things ok on the surface. It's refreshing to have a hero who is willing to give up everything and do things the hard way because of what he believes in. Tony chose the former and therefore I have more respect for Steve in CW.

 

[Wylie Times]

I was Team Cap before I saw the movie. I am still Team Cap. As for your argument:

1) I really feel for Tony at the beginning of the movie because things just keep getting worse for him, so I understand why he'd be mad.

As I said earlier I really felt bad for Tony throughout the film. Until the very end he was doing everything he could to protect Steve and the others. He was doing everything he could to reason with Steve.

2) I don't think Cap wants to break up the Avengers. He just don't want to sacrifice his ideology no matter what the outcome is. Steve has never been any less than real to himself and to others. Signing the accord would go against everything he stands for.

I don't think either of them wanted to break the Avengers up, the problem was Steve never offered a valid alternative. He refused to trust anyone else but expected everyone else to trust him. It was like Rhodey said, Steve's stance was dangerously arrogant.

Natasha and Tony understood that it was going to happen regardless of what the Avengers decided, but if they signed they at least would have been able to have input into what the accords entailed.

3) Keeping the secret may not be a wise thing to do in hindsight, but I believer very strongly that it's because Steve viewed Tony as his friend, and knowing how much it would hurt Tony he decided to keep it a secret. Besides it's not like Tony asked Steve and Steve lies about it. Keeping mum is not the same as telling a lie.

This stance is a bit of a reach considering that even Steve says he was sparing himself more than he was thinking about how much it would hurt Tony.

And lies of omission are a real thing. If my friends wife is cheating on him and I know about it, not telling my friend is just as bad as lying to him about it. Keeping things like that from people rarely keeps them from being hurt because they usually find out the bad secret anyway AND they find out that someone close to them knew but never told them (which is also hurtful).

It was also a bit hypocritical of Steve considering how upset he was that Sharon Cater was an agent tasked with keeping tabs on him.

Too often people conform because it's the path of the least resistance and make things ok on the surface. It's refreshing to have a hero who is willing to give up everything and do things the hard way because of what he believes in. Tony chose the former and therefore I have more respect for Steve in CW.

I'd agree with this except Steve was just being unreasonable, he wasn't willing to comprise to work out something that would be mutually beneficial. As I said earlier in this post, Steve refused to trust others while at the same time expecting everybody to trust him.

There was never a point where he offered an alternative, like making sure the Avengers have an U.N Liaison, or making sure the Avengers were completely transparent with the teams activities. His stance was that things were fine as they were even though they had just accidentally killed a bunch of people in this movie and they (as a team) were responsible for all sorts of damage and deaths during Age of Ultron.

 

[Jaxon]

You said it yourself , you don't care for any of the characters. Why are you even watching the movie ? Why are you watching the movie and then come here to whine about it ?

No that's not right. The only ones on my don't care list are Vision and Wanda. I don't care for the story that was told in Civil War that's for sure and I hope the Russos redeem themselves in Infinity Wars and get back to the level of tension and care shown in CATWS.

 

[Jaxon]

It's just a trial separation kind of deal. They can't bring the band back together due to the Accords, but when the time comes, Stark will be ready to assemble the team again.

Agree that's where it's at. Essentially they can't write a movie with a deep fracturing because it'd be too hard to convince us that they'd be back together on good terms unless it's like "we're only doing this because of the big bad".

 

[Maximum_Maximus]

As I said earlier I really felt bad for Tony throughout the film. Until the very end he was doing everything he could to protect Steve and the others. He was doing everything he could to reason with Steve.

I don't think either of them wanted to break the Avengers up, the problem was Steve never offered a valid alternative. He refused to trust anyone else but expected everyone else to trust him. It was like Rhodey said, Steve's stance was dangerously arrogant.

Natasha and Tony understood that it was going to happen regardless of what the Avengers decided, but if they signed they at least would have been able to have input into what the accords entailed.

This stance is a bit of a reach considering that even Steve says he was sparing himself more than he was thinking about how much it would hurt Tony.

And lies of omission are a real thing. If my friends wife is cheating on him and I know about it, not telling my friend is just as bad as lying to him about it. Keeping things like that from people rarely keeps them from being hurt because they usually find out the bad secret anyway AND they find out that someone close to them knew but never told them (which is also hurtful).

It was also a bit hypocritical of Steve considering how upset he was that Sharon Cater was an agent tasked with keeping tabs on him.

I'd agree with this except Steve was just being unreasonable, he wasn't willing to comprise to work out something that would be mutually beneficial. As I said earlier in this post, Steve refused to trust others while at the same time expecting everybody to trust him.

There was never a point where he offered an alternative, like making sure the Avengers have an U.N Liaison, or making sure the Avengers were completely transparent with the teams activities. His stance was that things were fine as they were even though they had just accidentally killed a bunch of people in this movie and they (as a team) were responsible for all sorts of damage and deaths during Age of Ultron.

As I understand it from watching the movie, there was no alternative but to sign the Accord. Gen. Ross did not offer the Avengers any compromise in exchange. It was either sign the accord or retire. Steve may seem a bit arrogant in doing what he did, but he really didn't have a choice in the matter. Besides what if he wanted to retire but wanted to first make sure Bucky's ok? Is it wrong for Steve to help a friend?

As for purposefully omitting the truth from Tony, I guess you see things differently than I do. There was no malice in Steve's intent. Would Tony be any less upset than he was in CW if Steve told him earlier? Not likely IMO.

Steve didn't expect others to follow him blindly into battle. His character and the respect his fellow Avengers had for him was what did it.

 

[Wylie Times]

As I understand it from watching the movie, there was no alternative but to sign the Accord. Gen. Ross did not offer the Avengers any compromise in exchange. It was either sign the accord or retire. Steve may seem a bit arrogant in doing what he did, but he really didn't have a choice in the matter. Besides what if he wanted to retire but just wanted to make sure Bucky's ok? Is it wrong for Steve to help a friend?

General Ross wasn't the only person behind the accords. He was just the secretary of state for the U.S.. Natasha even invited Steve to the U.N. meeting so he could be involved an speak to some of the world leaders. T'Chaka even said he was disappointed that Steve wasn't there.

As for Steve helping out a friend, there's nothing wrong with that, but there is an issue of HOW he did it.

For instance if a friend of yours is accused of a crime that you think they didn't commit, that doesn't give you the right to start attacking any police officer tha tries to bring him in. The problem with how Steve did things was that he never went through proper channels, he just went off on his own and beat on anyone that got in his way.

As for purposefully omitting the truth from Tony, I guess you see things differently than I do. There was no malice in Steve's intent. Would Tony be any less upset than he was in CW if Steve told him earlier? Not likely IMO.

I never said Steve did it with any malice, but he flat out said he kept it secret to protect himself more than it was to protect Tony.

If Steve had told Tony how his parents died he would have been hurt, but he would have also had to deal with the pain of knowing that someone he considered a friend kept it from him. Tony wasn't just hurt by seeing his parents murdered, he was also hurt because Steve kept it from him, that's why he pulled away in disgust after Steve admitted that he knew.

Steve didn't expect others to follow him blindly into battle. His character and the respect his fellow Avengers had for him was what did it.

When I talk about trust, I'm not talking about other Avengers. I'm saying Steve expected the people and the governments of the world to blindly trust him while at the same time saying he didn't trust them.

Natasha even says at one point that they've publicly made some big mistakes and that they needed to take steps to earn trust back. Steve stance was basically that he knew better than everyone else when it came to protecting the world.

He says himself that people have agendas but never acknowledges that the exact same thing a could be said about him.

 

[Chesterfield]

I felt really bad for Tony for most of this movie.

For most of the film Tony is doing everything he can to protect Cap. He tries to get in front of the Sokovia Accords, he pleads with Ross put Cap and Sam under his custody instead of just throwing them into jail, he begs Ross to let him and his team bring in Cap instead of sending a group of soldiers after, he them, he lies to Ross about Cap's whereabouts to protect him from Ross, and he doesn't alert Ross to Cap breaking the team out of prison.

Everything before the airport Fight is Tony begging and pleading with Cap to come to his senses because he KNOWS things are going to get worse.

Tony does everything he can to keep the team together and keep Cap from getting hurt and it results in his friend nearly being killed and he finds out Cap kept vital information about his parents death from him.

I came away from this film a much bigger fan of Tony Stark than I had been in the past.

Finally, someone who watched the same film I did.

I just can't understand how so many people aren't getting this.

 

[Whatupman]

I definitely found Tony to be more likeable and interesting than Steve in this movie. I feels like Tony was struggling more with the decision to hurt Steve, than it was the other way around.

 

[Brian Braddock]

No that's not right. The only ones on my don't care list are Vision and Wanda. I don't care for the story that was told in Civil War that's for sure and I hope the Russos redeem themselves in Infinity Wars and get back to the level of tension and care shown in CATWS.

Seriously, I've read all of your posts and I cant stay silent any more as the sheer level of nit-pickery is astoundingly high, even for these boards. You must have noticed that you are really part of a very, very, very small group of posters criticizing this movie at every turn and that everyone else loved it? A person can only look at the unrelenting frequency of your criticisms for so long before they start to wonder if there's an angle being worked here.

Now the Russo's stand accused of a lack of care and they have to 'redeem' themselves? Please, there is absolutely nothing to redeem - hell, if they show the same lack of care [and tension] in Infinity War then most of us, except you seemingly, will be overjoyed as it would mean that, yet again, they've knocked it out of the park.

 

[Maximum_Maximus]

General Ross wasn't the only person behind the accords. He was just the secretary of state for the U.S.. Natasha even invited Steve to the U.N. meeting so he could be involved an speak to some of the world leaders. T'Chaka even said he was disappointed that Steve wasn't there.

As for Steve helping out a friend, there's nothing wrong with that, but there is an issue of HOW he did it.

For instance if a friend of yours is accused of a crime that you think they didn't commit, that doesn't give you the right to start attacking any police officer tha tries to bring him in. The problem with how Steve did things was that he never went through proper channels, he just went off on his own and beat on anyone that got in his way.

I never said Steve did it with any malice, but he flat out said he kept it secret to protect himself more than it was to protect Tony.

If Steve had told Tony how his parents died he would have been hurt, but he would have also had to deal with the pain of knowing that someone he considered a friend kept it from him. Tony wasn't just hurt by seeing his parents murdered, he was also hurt because Steve kept it from him, that's why he pulled away in disgust after Steve admitted that he knew.

When I talk about trust, I'm not talking about other Avengers. I'm saying Steve expected the people and the governments of the world to blindly trust him while at the same time saying he didn't trust them.

Natasha even says at one point that they've publicly made some big mistakes and that they needed to take steps to earn trust back. Steve stance was basically that he knew better than everyone else when it came to protecting the world.

He says himself that people have agendas but never acknowledges that the exact same thing a could be said about him.

When you put it in that context, of course Steve looks bad by comparison to Tony, but you have to consider the following which preceded CW:

1) The distrust Steve has with the governments of the world most likely stemmed from TWS, when everything he knew was turned into a lie. SHIELD was Hydra infiltrated from within, and it's not hard for Steve to surmise that the world government would likely be tainted and too unreliable to be the authority figure for Avengers.

2) Bucky had been Steve's childhood friend, his comrade in arms, the one Steve blamed himself for not saving. Bucky was the only connection to his past (aside from Peggy) and his one true friend. Lying (or not telling) Tony about his parents' death may be a way for Steve to spare Bucky from death or imprisonment, something that only he understood. I am sure Steve would go to jail for Bucky and all that. He'd rather risky upsetting Tony than letting Bucky take the fall. That's how strong the friendship and bond Steve and Bucky share.

3) Lastly, I think the script for CW is written so that one of them has to be anti-government for the conflict to take place. The script casts Tony in a positive light because he's the character that needs it. Steve already has tons of good vibe going his way ever since TWS. To make him the de facto good guy would only make Tony seems worse by comparison, wouldn't you say?