The Clinton Thread II

[Thundercrack85]

Sarah Palin will probably always be the worst VP pick in history.

Even most Republicans concede that she was a mistake. Everyone involved in that decision seems to regret it (some much more vocally than others).

 

[Kelly]

Really? Because I find that American politics are hard right-of-center by Western standards. The United States is the only developed country in the world with no universal health care. Same with paid maternity leave. Sex ed and evolution are still contentious subjects in schools. The minimum wage and taxes are unusually low. And then there is the fact that it is basically impossible to be elected to high office if you don't claim to be religious

Both parties have views regarding guns that would be considered insane in Europe, and Australia.

Hard right of center, I disagree totally. Just right of center, yes....

As far as religion: I think it is how religion is looked at, church membership has been slowing down in the US for quite awhile, as it has in Europe and that varies from country to country. That isn't to say that Europe isn't religious, it is simply that people are finding other ways of manifesting that religion. Same is happening here in the US. But, I think if you asked individuals about their religion, the answers would be FAR different from the faaaar religious right.

As far as guns, you can even poll NRA members and they themselves have a far different view of what the gun laws should be than the leadership within the NRA. And the majority of US citizens even more so....

So again, painting the entire country with one brush is ignorant to a degree and stupid as far as I'm concerned.

Policies written by a few, is not necessarily what the masses believe or want for their lives....so again using one brush to paint the picture is just wrong. Our electoral system is flawed, that is where the problem begins....it does not begin with the individual in the workplace, it has become extremely apparent that what we think should happen in our country is not necessarily what ends up happening in policy making.

So are our leaders out of touch? yes....hell they are out of touch with Americans..... Are we given solid choices in our leadership? for the most part no......

 

[Thundercrack85]

Europe is much more secular than the United States. I honestly can't tell you any of the major European leaders' religion (Cameron, Merkel, Hollande, etc). I mean, I could look it up, but I can't tell you off the top of my head. I know every American leader's religious history because it's a major issue in American politics. Obama allegedly not being a Christian, or religious enough is still an issue. I doubt the average German knows Merkel's religious views, or cares.

You can't be president in this country without professing to be religious.

As for guns, yeah, the NRA has a stranglehold on policy (which in and of itself says a lot about American politics and views), but even the most pro-gun control Democrat's policies would be considered right of center by European standards.

Having lived both throughout Europe and the United States, I can say America is a conservative country. Its cities tend to be liberal, which balances it out somewhat, but overall it's very right-of-center.

 

[Kelly]

Europe is much more secular than the United States. I honestly can't tell you any of the major European leaders' religion (Cameron, Merkel, Hollande, etc). I mean, I could look it up, but I can't tell you off the top of my head. I know every American leader's religious history because it's a major issue in American politics. Obama allegedly not being a Christian, or religious enough is still an issue. I doubt the average German knows Merkel's religious views, or cares.

You can't be president in this country without professing to be religious.

As for guns, yeah, the NRA has a stranglehold on policy (which in and of itself says a lot about American politics and views), but even the most pro-gun control Democrat's policies would be considered right of center by European standards.

Having lived both throughout Europe and the United States, I can say America is a conservative country. Its cities tend to be liberal, which balances it out somewhat, but overall it's very right-of-center.

As a whole in Europe, but it varies greatly from country to country and region to region within those countries.

Again, I totally disagree on the "very right of center" I just do not see it....and I live in Texas.....mind you.....YES, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin are far different than rural Texas, but I look at the larger cities around the country, and I just do not see the "very" in that statement....but the very fact that 85% of the population lives in those large cities that you just called more liberal says a lot. IT IS THE BIG MONEY that tends to....for some strange reason....skew Conservative, and it is that money that puts people in office that make the policies, but that is not the majority of those people in those cities.

As far as gun policy....yes, and it will ALWAYS BE DIFFERENT FROM EUROPE....why? because it started out different from Europe....from Day 1 of the ratifying of our Constitution.

I think our disagreement is simply in wording....

But, my distaste for generalizations is not going to change.

 

[Thundercrack85]

You do not have universal healthcare. You have 300 million guns in circulation, 11,000 gun deaths each year, and suggesting a gun ban is political suicide. You can't be president unless you're religious. Come on, Kelly. You're in denial.

 

[Kelly]

You do not have universal healthcare. You have 300 million guns in circulation, 11,000 gun deaths each year, and suggesting a gun ban is political suicide. You can't be president unless you're religious. Come on, Kelly. You're in denial.

You ask citizens as a whole, and the majority will say....we need universal health care, there are too many guns in circulation, far too many deaths from those guns.....the political suicide comes at the hands of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ not the general population. AND YES YOU CAN...the first time I heard what Hillary Clinton's actual religion was....was today. She's Methodist....YES, to certain pockets of voters, religion is important....but when you ask them to rank what they think is important issues, how religious the candidate is is just not that important...hell, Trump was polled as being the least religious of all of the candidates and he is now the GOP candidate, Out of the top 6 candidates in the primaries Clinton was ranked 4th and Trump 6th as most religious....and they are now the candidates. Now when asked about a President that does not believe God, then yeah.... about 1/2 say they would be less likely to vote for that candidate....but again, that sure as hell is "all" which is what a "general" statement paints.

No I'm not in denial....I've been following this stuff for a hell of a long time, no denial here.....simply a distaste for people making generalizations about a nation of 300 + million. That is all....

 

[SV Fan]

Sarah Palin will probably always be the worst VP pick in history.

Even most Republicans concede that she was a mistake. Everyone involved in that decision seems to regret it (some much more vocally than others).

Given that McCain looks like he was on his way to lose, it was a swing for the fences kind of pick. I think given the situation it was the right move, it just failed miserably. If they picked a safer pick like Tim Pawlenty they might have only lost by 4-5% instead of 6%

 

[Zur-en-Arrh]

palin did a great job energizing the republican base and brought focus onto mccain's campaign that it had been sorely lacking. in fact, here's a snapshot from september 11th of '08: Gallup Daily: McCain 48%, Obama 44% what did mccain in was saying the economy was fine just days before the literal collapse. or rather, the collapse did him in, as even if he hadn't made that incredibly ill-timed statement, simply being an 'r' like bush would have doomed him. but i think there's this revisionist thought that palin tanked that campaign, but when you go back and look at the polling, it's just the opposite. and i don't think pawlenty would have moved the needle at all for mccain.

edit--an illustration (palin was announced as vp in late aug, rnc that year was sept 1):

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't think Palin is the reason McCain lost. I'd say 8 years of terrible Republican policies did that. Obama also had the real first 21st century campaign, fully utilizing social media. I've seen a study saying that Palin cost McCain 2 million votes, but that still doesn't make up the difference.

Palin was just one more nail in the coffin.

 

[Zur-en-Arrh]

it's a fun election to study. obama's campaign definitely built the blueprint for modern elections.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'm curious to see how Pence will work out. It's interesting that Trump wanted to back out.

I think Pence might prove a liability with his ultra-far-right views, but then when the the main star is Trump, it might not even come up.

 

[Zur-en-Arrh]

kaine looks like a great pick for hillary, and i think he'll do well against pence in their debate with his combination of proficiency in policy and easy going demeanor. i'm not sure how much vp debates move the proverbial needle, but i think that's about the only time either will have a real impact on the race.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think it's hard to quantify their effect. Though I will say a bad VP pick is much more likely to hurt a candidate, than a good VP pick is likely to help them.

 

[Zur-en-Arrh]

i think that's a good way of looking at it.

 

[CaptainWagner]

I'm a fan as Kaine for V.P. Personally, I'd rather just scrub the current Presidential picks and run Kaine and Pence against each other.

 

[The Overlord]

The fact that Clinton is not burying Trump in the polls is kinda sad. If Clinton actually loses this she will be the one of the biggest losers in American political history.

 

[Kelly]

The fact that Clinton is not burying Trump in the polls is kinda sad. If Clinton actually loses this she will be the one of the biggest losers in American political history.

Not sad at all, the candidate usually gets a nice little bump after their convention.... the polls in late October is what you watch....

 

[Slushy]

The right thing to do is for Sanders to retract his endorsement for Clinton, but he won't because he has no spine.

If Clinton actually loses this she will be the one of the biggest losers in American political history.

Agreed. She would've beaten Obama last time if she didn't bury herself by telling the Bosnia sniper fire lie.

 

[samsnee]

The right thing to do is for Sanders to retract his endorsement for Clinton, but he won't because he has no spine.



Agreed. She would've beaten Obama last time if she didn't bury herself by telling the Bosnia sniper fire lie.

Sanders may not like Clinton but he knows the alternative is far worse.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

The fact that Clinton is not burying Trump in the polls is kinda sad. If Clinton actually loses this she will be the one of the biggest losers in American political history.

At the moment I think it's the other way around. Trump is showing a lot of weakness factoring in how the last few weeks have been nothing but advantages for him. You had Hillary getting scolded by the FBI director about her e-mails which gave Trump validation to hammer Hillary on her trustworthiness. And any time something goes wrong in the world (domestic or abroad) that gives Trump the edge since fear is a cornerstone of his campaign. When cops were getting ambushed and the terrorist attack happened in France that gave Trump the edge to fear monger about the unrest and become the "law and order" candidate. Then on top of that he has a week long convention where his speakers bludgeoned Hillary to death over those issues and of course Benghazi. Even after having weeks where the narrative is in his favor Trump can barely scratch above the low 40's. Given the circumstances he should be killing Hillary right now.

 

[samsnee]

Yeah polls after the Orlando shooting showed that most people didn't think he handled the response well.

 

[The Overlord]

At the moment I think it's the other way around. Trump is showing a lot of weakness factoring in how the last few weeks have been nothing but advantages for him. You had Hillary getting scolded by the FBI director about her e-mails which gave Trump validation to hammer Hillary on her trustworthiness. And any time something goes wrong in the world (domestic or abroad) that gives Trump the edge since fear is a cornerstone of his campaign. When cops were getting ambushed and the terrorist attack happened in France that gave Trump the edge to fear monger about the unrest and become the "law and order" candidate. Then on top of that he has a week long convention where his speakers bludgeoned Hillary to death over those issues and of course Benghazi. Even after having weeks where the narrative is in his favor Trump can barely scratch above the low 40's. Given the circumstances he should be killing Hillary right now.

Perhaps I am being harsh on Hillary, but I do think she has some big weaknesses as a candidate and I hope she doesn't become complacent and assume an easy victory over Trump.

I think Hillary Clinton comes off as a status quo candidate and I think that if she is not dealing with the underlining issues that created the Trump movement in the first place, she will be making a big mistake. If she ignores such issues (like American workers feeling like they have been screwed over by globalization), she does so at her peril.

 

[terry78]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/25/us/politics/michael-bloomberg-hillary-clinton-dnc.html?_r=0


Bloomberg officially endorses Clinton.

 

[SV Fan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/25/us/politics/michael-bloomberg-hillary-clinton-dnc.html?_r=0


Bloomberg officially endorses Clinton.

Wonder if that means the DNC will adopt a ban on all Large Soft Drinks platform. lol

 

[Thundercrack85]

The fact that Clinton is not burying Trump in the polls is kinda sad. If Clinton actually loses this she will be the one of the biggest losers in American political history.

The fact that Trump is the nominee of a major party is sad. Thank God Lincoln doesn't have to see this.