The Dark Knight Rises The Dark Knight Batman Vs. Bane Spoilers

[ThePhantasm]

It seems clear to me that Batman was carrying a red sash and Ra's was an angry bull that ran head long into his own death. A ultimatum point orchestrated by Bruce if Ra's refused to stand down, but none the less entirely caused by Ra's' overzealous and psychotic pursuit of Gotham's destruction.

Hence, he drew the fight out until they were blocks away from WE, where Ra’s would surely be killed unless Bruce saved him.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Batman doesn't kill. Hence, he went up there to try to stop the train and also find some way to save Ra's, no matter how unlikely. That he told Gordon to blow the rails shows that Batman thought it was indeed unlikely. But it was nonetheless a backup / failsafe against all hope.

 

[Pwz414]

Bane would win his first encounter with Batman regardless. It's the whole point and it's imbedded in Bane's story/legacy. Batman underestimates Bane while, at the same time, he overestimates himself. I don't think it makes a difference when it happens.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not referring to established legacies. I'm posing a “what if” question about each of them at the top of their game. One could argue Bane's prime was in the prison before his injuries. We don't know much about that Bane but perhaps he could have defeated Bruce.

Could Batman have been in his prime at the end of TDKR, yes, that is possible... And what was the outcome?

I noticed that two times in the first fight there is a distinctively different sound made by the punches to the mask, and after each of these strikes or as in one case, a pulling of the mask tactic, Bane retaliates swiftly. From the closing of the gate: At 0:24 Bruce hits the mask hard, Bane kicks him over the rail, at 0:50 Bruce grabs at the mask, Bane does his superman punch, and at 2:00 Bruce strikes the mask hard while on top of Bane; Bane punches Bruce off of him. Bane was protecting his weakness viciously during the first fight, and a true fighter is going to notice when an opponent favors a part of their body... Add to that Bruce being able to withstand Bane's most ferocious assaults for at least ten seconds while counterstriking tells me that as soon as he knows the mask is Bane's Achilles heel it's all over. The only question is whether Bruce would notice how avidly Bane protects the mask. I think he would notice, and he would then take him out.

 

[Pwz414]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Batman doesn't kill. Hence, he went up there to try to stop the train and also find some way to save Ra's, no matter how unlikely. That he told Gordon to blow the rails shows that Batman thought it was indeed unlikely. But it was nonetheless a backup / failsafe against all hope.

I understand what you mean, and I know Bats doesn’t kill, but he did let Ra's die.

So when he said: "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you." Are you saying he couldn't save him at that point, because it seemed quite clear to me that he let Ra's die. He knew Ra's beliefs, and that due to the scope of Ra's’ aspirations a padded cell was too much of a risk, so he set Ra's up to kill himself if he wouldn't back down.

Just the way I see it. He could easily have saved Ra's right up to the last second, but he had learned that showing Ra's compassion was too dangerous, and even after saving him once already Ra's was still all too willing to kill Bruce or anyone who protected society. Since Bruce knew Ra's would likely carry out his task at the cost of his own life he simply gave him the opportunity to do so by stacking the deck against him. He drew the encounter out until the last second, giving Ra's every chance to save himself by abandoning his psychotic plan.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I agree with that. But of course the salient point is that in the train fight, Ra's overcame Bruce in combat... up until Bruce revealed his backup plan and took Ra's by surprise. Without that, Bruce would have been beaten. Thus, the train sequence is no indicator of how Bruce would have fared against Ra's mano-a-mano sans backup plan.

 

[Pwz414]

I agree with that. But of course the salient point is that in the train fight, Ra's overcame Bruce in combat... up until Bruce revealed his backup plan and took Ra's by surprise. Without that, Bruce would have been beaten. Thus, the train sequence is no indicator of how Bruce would have fared against Ra's mano-a-mano sans backup plan.

I watched the Gordon scene just now. Batman: “I’m going to stop him from loading that train, but I may need your help.” This suggests that if the train was loaded Bruce would be ready to let Ra’s die. His final chance at reprieve, so to speak.


Are you sure he did, though? When Ra's said: "Familiar, haven’t you anything new." and Bruce replied: "How about this?" He beats on Ra's until the very end, when Ra's clearly takes the upper hand, but as soon as Bruce has revealed to Ra's the intention was never to stop the train, he takes final control. Shall we consider that Bruce defeated Ra's on the ice but for the environment, when that's considered we must give Ra's the victory, but mono-a-mono, Ra's had lost... It seems to me Ra's sacrificed his footing for a killing stroke, in the train situation...

“He never did learn to mind his surroundings.”

Edit: This is a little more foundation for my argument. Open to interpretation, but still. Ra's is armed with his sword at the beginning of the train duel... Bruce disarms and beats on him until the second act of the fight. An argument could be made that Bruce's armor is protecting him, but we also know it slows him down to the point of incurring injuries in speed and agility situations. I would call single combat a mixture of speed, agility, and durability, so the armor is a bit of a toss up.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Shall we consider that Bruce defeated Ra's on the ice but for the environment

That's a fair point. It seems to me in that case that they are basically evenly matched.

 

[The Guard]

Eh...TDK Batman wasn't able to elude shots from The Joker's men, and The Joker beat him pretty badly. There's nothing in TDK to suggest Bruce would have fared any better against Bane then. I think Bane would have handled TDK Batman his ass, especially since Bane would have been eight years younger, too.

 

[Pwz414]

That's a fair point. It seems to me in that case that they are basically evenly matched.

You mean over all or on the ice? I personally think all things considered Bruce had surpassed him. After all, he is still alive.

Here’s an interesting thought. There has never been a first encounter scenario in which Bruce gets the jump on Bane. I.E. Knows who he is, knows his training, and knows his weaknesses. Is it fair to say that in the event an informed Bane, meats an informed Batman, both men in prime condition, that Batman is going to win? I’m guessing the majority would side with Batman here, so is it beyond possibility that Batman could learn what he needs to know to beat Bane on the fly during the first fight?

That is my primary question. Would Batman learn Bane’s weakness as he fought him, or would Bane inflict too much damage too quickly. We certainly know Bane wouldn’t toy with a fit Batman, as we saw on the steps, and we all know how that ended.

“Tell me where the trigger is, then, you have my permission to die.”

Batman would punch the mask hard, as he did in the first fight... probably a lot harder... and notice Bane’s attempt to protect the mask. He would then target the mask, and we’ve been shown that Batman can withstand everything Bane has for a time, while counterstriking. So would he get to the mask in time?

 

[Pwz414]

Eh...TDK Batman wasn't able to elude shots from The Joker's men, and The Joker beat him pretty badly. There's nothing in TDK to suggest Bruce would have fared any better against Bane then. I think Bane would have handled TDK Batman his ass, especially since Bane would have been eight years younger, too.

Yep, and I have to say Batman looks SHARP during the Blake rescue, but at the same time, I think Nolan had heeded complaints about the choreography and that had something to do with him looking so tight. In BB, he takes out 12ish of Falcone's men, we just don't get to see it because Nolan had no idea how to show it.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah. It was a backup plan. Jim was there in case he failed.

It would have been stupid of him to underestimate Ra's.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

Bane is clearly the stronger one but if after prison Batman went toe to toe with Bane, prime Batman would beat him. It would be still vicious fight though.

Also for final Joker fight, Batman was unlucky with sonar,he was blind for a moment, Joker was no match in one on one in rest of the movie.

 

[AnneFan]

Bane is clearly the stronger one but if after prison Batman went toe to toe with Bane, prime Batman would beat him. It would be still vicious fight though.

I'm not sure. Bane was beating Batman at the start, pushing him up the steps before his mask was damaged.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

I'm not sure. Bane was beating Batman at the start, pushing him up the steps before his mask was damaged.

Yeah but neighter sides were able to harm eachother good this time. In first fight, Bane took Batman's punches like a joke to him. In second fight, it was balanced between two, Batman punched a lot but Bane's punches was damaging.

There is great strenght difference between two. I like it they didn't just go "Batman is back as stronger than Bane" routine in 2nd fight. Bane was still agressive and strong like a gorilla. Especially after his mask is broken.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

People can cite rust, age and overconfidence, but Nolan's Batman (in his prime) still would have been obliterated by Bane. His physical attributes, athleticism, speed and strength would go unmatched by Batman. Furthermore, Bane is a master tactician -- he wouldn't go into a fight with Batman without a strategy.

You're basically pitting a Chimpanzee against Silverback here. The odds are never going to be on the Chimpanzee's side.

 

[AnneFan]

When Batman kicked Bane through the glass doors it was so satisfying, considering how hard Bane was to fight. And I agree Doomsday. Bane was a mountain of a man and his blows were hard and powerful. He was going to be a daunting prospect whenever the two of them met.

 

[hafizbat]

I personally think Batman was at his strongest point after he comes out of the pit. He had like 4 months to train while watching his city burn. He was determined as he was when he first put on the batsuit. He was at his emotional, physical, and mental peak. He got over Rachel due to Miranda, he trained like hell as he refused to die in that pit and to escape he had to do a feat which not even Bane could do. He truly had to "Rise" and I think that was the point of the whole film. When he says "when I have the trigger, THEN you have my permission to die" that was Batman at his strongest point, way more so than Begins or TDK

 

[uniqueweasel]

Straight up 1 on 1 fight Batman wouldn't have it easy but 9/10 would win, Bane always has to have some kind of angle or advantage in his favour to beat Batman. When he faced Batman in the final fight, he had no plans, just a straight fight and he lost.

 

[BattleCat]

Although Bruce went in like an over confident fool, I did not expect for him to lose that easily. I'm assuming Bats would figure out the mask is the key to beating Bane, but it's too close to call.

 

[Drunkard Esq.]

Bane is clearly the stronger one but if after prison Batman went toe to toe with Bane, prime Batman would beat him. It would be still vicious fight though.

Also for final Joker fight, Batman was unlucky with sonar,he was blind for a moment, Joker was no match in one on one in rest of the movie.

Yeah but in this film Bane is about 50-years old. He's probably also past his prime in TDKR, even moreso than Batman. Therefore younger Batman vs younger Bane would probably work out the same.

 

[Baneis8feettall]

Yeah but in this film Bane is about 50-years old. He's probably also past his prime in TDKR, even moreso than Batman. Therefore younger Batman vs younger Bane would probably work out the same.

But Batman and Bane has different style and past. Batman fights alone, without killing and every day & night with crime. He battled with Ra's Al Ghul's himself and the Joker. Shot from close distance.

Bane has an army, he kills people for second. He might be older than Batman but still probably in prime.

I mean Batman took more damage in limited time. Batman sacrificed more from body because of killing code, working alone. He couldn't walk without a caine when he first put on the costume. Also even months of training don't make his body better than prime especially he has already damaged body and broken back.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Although Bruce went in like an over confident fool, I did not expect for him to lose that easily. I'm assuming Bats would figure out the mask is the key to beating Bane, but it's too close to call.

He fared better in the movie than in the corresponding fight in Knightfall. At least in the movie he got in a few punches.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Straight up 1 on 1 fight Batman wouldn't have it easy but 9/10 would win, Bane always has to have some kind of angle or advantage in his favour to beat Batman. When he faced Batman in the final fight, he had no plans, just a straight fight and he lost.

Bruce was still struggling against Bane in the City Hall fight. He only got the upper hand because he damaged Bane's mask. Prior to that, Bane was still in control.

The City Hall fight reminds me alot of Brock Lesnar vs Frank Mir I. A minuscule opening changed the tide of war.

 

[Frank]

Bane would win his first encounter with Batman regardless. It's the whole point and it's imbedded in Bane's story/legacy. Batman underestimates Bane while, at the same time, he overestimates himself. I don't think it makes a difference when it happens.

Apparently Bane thinks it matters. In the comics he had several opportunities to face Batman but he wouldn't do it until he was too weak to fight back. Even Bane knew he couldn't beat Batman at his best.

 

[Gold Samurai]

I was surprised at how forward Batman was in fighting Bane.

Batman went out all out in round one when he should have observed and then taken out Bane

 

[uniqueweasel]

Bruce was still struggling against Bane in the City Hall fight. He only got the upper hand because he damaged Bane's mask. Prior to that, Bane was still in control.

The City Hall fight reminds me alot of Brock Lesnar vs Frank Mir I. A minuscule opening changed the tide of war.

Yes he was struggling but the second time he had the strength to deal out blows that could damage Bane's mask. Like Bane only got the upper hand on Bruce because he was 8 years from retiring and in bad physical and mental state.

Yeah he is a bit like Lesnar wins by the use of advantages rather than skill ie using his weight to hold down opponents. Then when this can't be relied on loses.